Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Telecaster on February 06, 2018, 08:06:32 pm

Title: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 06, 2018, 08:06:32 pm
It's a great PR maneuver but also an impressive feat of engineering and tech!  :D  If you haven't yet seen the launch and booster landings:

Short version launch:
https://youtu.be/jT1Yk0q1HBI

Short version booster stage landings (nailed 'em!):
https://youtu.be/l5I8jaMsHYk

Longer version from the SpaceX YouTube channel:
https://youtu.be/j8wxV-lUsZg

The center booster narrowly missed its off-shore landing target and crashed into the ocean. This one was a trickier proposition due to distance and altitude.

Streaming real-time SpaceX video (give it time to load) of the Tesla with "Starman" onboard:
https://youtu.be/aBr2kKAHN6M

Engine burn for Mars coming up if all goes well.

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 06, 2018, 08:28:38 pm
An amazing achievement and a hell of a good TV show.  Watched the whole thing live.
Boeing, Lockheed and NASA will be having some interesting meetings in the near future.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 06, 2018, 08:41:27 pm
See the Moon (attached pic)?  :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 06, 2018, 08:44:19 pm
Heh.  Now THAT'S a shot I've never seen before.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on February 06, 2018, 09:53:36 pm
Saw it on the news today. My mind is reeling.

The next item to launch on an orbital path to the sun should be our planet's nuclear waste and any other garbage and pollution that can be put in a container and sent out into space.

Not holding my breath on that happening in the near future, but's good there's someone like Elon Musk to give hope.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on February 06, 2018, 09:57:46 pm
Whata' bet the traffic in space might be just as bad as LA where that Tesla winds up hitting a satellite or some rock hurling through space. :o
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 06, 2018, 10:52:39 pm
Whata' bet the traffic in space might be just as bad as LA where that Tesla winds up hitting a satellite or some rock hurling through space. :o

It's pretty much there already:

http://www.popsci.com.au/space/see-all-the-satellites-and-space-junk-circling-earth-in-realtime,406321

Regarding sending nuclear waste, the issue is the question of failure of launch and basically creating the world's biggest dirty bomb.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: degrub on February 06, 2018, 11:45:40 pm
The center booster was reported to have crashed into the water at 300 mph due to 2 of the 3 engines not lighting during approach.
Still, a real success overall.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: davidgp on February 07, 2018, 01:21:24 am
Whata' bet the traffic in space might be just as bad as LA where that Tesla winds up hitting a satellite or some rock hurling through space. :o

Highly probably... the last burn to put the Tesla next Mars was overshoot... last calculations are saying that it is going to the asteroid belt.


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: athegn on February 07, 2018, 04:36:31 am
Love the nod to Douglas Adams on the dashboard.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 07, 2018, 08:40:19 am
Love the nod to Douglas Adams on the dashboard.

Yeah, but it looks like he has forgotten to bring a towel. ;)

Anyway, it's impressive what has been achieved in a relatively short time.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: kers on February 07, 2018, 09:26:52 am
It's pretty much there already:

http://www.popsci.com.au/space/see-all-the-satellites-and-space-junk-circling-earth-in-realtime,406321

Regarding sending nuclear waste, the issue is the question of failure of launch and basically creating the world's biggest dirty bomb.

That is one problem ( displayed in the fim 'Gravity')
An other thing is the colonization of space;  to who belongs Mars for instance?

At this moment all the Mars missions took high caution not to contaminate it with the biologic life from earth.
With sending people we are giving that virginity away as we did on the Moon.
Next thing is the exploitation of space and it will show that in some way we as a human race have not developed since 1600;  'i saw it first' will rule + the law of the jungle.
(neglecting the rights of living creatures  that were there already)
While we are so focussed on 'technology' it is obvious that we already have enough of that to make living better for everyone here on earth.
That would be a real achievement. Sadly it is not as sexy as a rocket launch.


Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 07, 2018, 10:18:33 am
That is one problem ( displayed in the fim 'Gravity')
An other thing is the colonization of space;  to who belongs Mars for instance?

At this moment all the Mars missions took high caution not to contaminate it with the biologic life from earth.
With sending people we are giving that virginity away as we did on the Moon.
Next thing is the exploitation of space and it will show that in some way we as a human race have not developed since 1600;  'i saw it first' will rule + the law of the jungle.
(neglecting the rights of living creatures  that were there already)
While we are so focussed on 'technology' it is obvious that we already have enough of that to make living better for everyone here on earth.
That would be a real achievement. Sadly it is not as sexy as a rocket launch.


I agree with you 100%.

It has always struck me as absurd that we spend all this money on "space" yet there are millions of people here, on Earth, unable to find food, water or even a roof to cover them from the elements.

We fail to deliver peace, safe cities or even safe villages; we have a society where weekends turn some city streets into no-go areas at night because of the young drunks and junkies, and we have criminals on early parole because there ain't enough space to contain 'em out of our way, and that's in the so-called developed world. We can't make the trains and buses run on time and in some areas we have gone from a daily collection of domestic waste to once every two weeks. We condone a work ethic where companies are able to pretend their employees are self-employed and thus treat them like shit.

We run a medical service that is doing all that it can with the limited funds it has to supply treatment for patients, some of whom are left for hours on a stretcher in an ambulance or on a trolley in a corridor due to lack of beds and staff to cope with it all. Yet we think it desirable to throw money into rockets that, apart from communications systems, do what that we can't live without, that wasn't perfectly good enough back in the 50s?

Instead  of attending even to this tiny fraction of a lengthy list of all that's obviously wrong with our society we think about friggin' space? Are these people for real? Who gives a shit about going to the Moon except mega-rich tourists of the future or grown men who are still Superman and/or Flash Gordon fans?

If that sort of money is availabe for games and careers in sci-fi, then maybe we should seriously think about our taxation system, especially about the pockets wherein are to be found the funds to throw around on fantasies like this.

You could safely say that as a society, our sense of values can't tell its ass from its elbow.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Robert Roaldi on February 07, 2018, 01:22:46 pm

I agree with you 100%.

It has always struck me as absurd that we spend all this money on "space" yet there are millions of people here, on Earth, unable to find food, water or even a roof to cover them from the elements.

We fail to deliver peace, safe cities or even safe villages; we have a society where weekends turn some city streets into no-go areas at night because of the young drunks and junkies, and we have criminals on early parole because there ain't enough space to contain 'em out of our way, and that's in the so-called developed world. We can't make the trains and buses run on time and in some areas we have gone from a daily collection of domestic waste to once every two weeks. We condone a work ethic where companies are able to pretend their employees are self-employed and thus treat them like shit.

We run a medical service that is doing all that it can with the limited funds it has to supply treatment for patients, some of whom are left for hours on a stretcher in an ambulance or on a trolley in a corridor due to lack of beds and staff to cope with it all. Yet we think it desirable to throw money into rockets that, apart from communications systems, do what that we can't live without, that wasn't perfectly good enough back in the 50s?

Instead  of attending even to this tiny fraction of a lengthy list of all that's obviously wrong with our society we think about friggin' space? Are these people for real? Who gives a shit about going to the Moon except mega-rich tourists of the future or grown men who are still Superman and/or Flash Gordon fans?

If that sort of money is availabe for games and careers in sci-fi, then maybe we should seriously think about our taxation system, especially about the pockets wherein are to be found the funds to throw around on fantasies like this.

You could safely say that as a society, our sense of values can't tell its ass from its elbow.

That's always been true. How much health care could be provided by all the money wasted on pro sports and the gambling industry that it supports (and that's the legal gambling).  How much did those bombs cost that were dropped on Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos? Does everyone really need a new mobile (or D-SLR :) ) every year or two?

How much money has been spent on space exploration? Is it on the same order of magnitude as military spending or airport security? A lot less? A lot more? I don't know.

How large is the international illegal drug trade and how much money has spent on the "war" against it, with nothing to show for it except an increase in the power of the drug cartels?

You could argue that those rich space tourists have a pretty good reason to leave this place.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 07, 2018, 03:31:45 pm
The argument that we can only do one thing, and that all our resources must be devoted to that one thing, is thoroughly authoritarian. Humans aren't a hive mind species, no matter how much some of us may yearn for that. Different people have different interests, and I think it's fantastic that we can in particular pursue the exploratory ones. I see SpaceX, especially with this launch, as in part a nice healthy Fvck You to human small-mindedness and self-absorption. Let's go back to the Moon, go to Mars, mine asteroids, do whatever we can to run the zero-sum game approach to existence through the shredder.

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: MattBurt on February 07, 2018, 03:55:22 pm
I think the tech here is mind-bogglingly awesome but the car was a little over the top. I think the car could even dilute the impact of what we witnessed here.
But whatever the payload I can't deny I'm absolutely awed by this. The boosters landing together looked like a scene from Star Wars.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 07, 2018, 04:11:23 pm
Matt, I'm not concerned about the Tesla. It was a PR move for sure and is getting much of the short-term media focus. But Falcon Heavy is a legitimate thing, made to do real work, and this was just its first launch.

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 07, 2018, 04:35:29 pm
The reality is that space exploration and the related technologies, just as sea exploration before it and even land exploration before that, have unlocked benefits for humans and helped with many of the concerns and issues that people raise as "why aren't we spending money on THIS instead?" comments.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: MattBurt on February 07, 2018, 04:37:59 pm
Yes Dave, I know it's legit. My point was just that the car stunt might make some not believe it's real or distract from the technical accomplishment here. And that accomplishment is really, really impressive. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 07, 2018, 08:34:52 pm
The "car stunt" is for me, inspiring beyond words. It shows a sense of joy and whimsy that warms my heart. Only exceeded in sheer, raw production value by the Two Shot of the Year - those two boosters landing, ballet-like, in perfect harmony.

The live stream bears close watching.  There's more there than might first be apparent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2p55BmwmJM



Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: LesPalenik on February 07, 2018, 09:27:49 pm
Much more important and inspirational development than a 5g gram weight reduction on the latest smartphone.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 08, 2018, 04:54:36 am
The reality is that space exploration and the related technologies, just as sea exploration before it and even land exploration before that, have unlocked benefits for humans and helped with many of the concerns and issues that people raise as "why aren't we spending money on THIS instead?" comments.

No, it's not the same thing at all.

We live on this planet and will continue so to do to until we end up destroying our ability to continue. It makes perfect sense to know as much about our habitat as we can learn. The Moon and space are not where we live, and as a species we never can. Even some places on Earth are out of limits for humans unless via centuries of acclimatization. We already have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out several worlds.

Unquestionably, rockets make for fine spectacle, but that confuses the issue of what makes sense and what is a waste of resources and a distraction. I'm surprised that anyone can seriously claim it to be better to let any part of humanity live badly because it's wonderful and better to blow resouces on vainglorious showmanship.

We already have our satellites showing us how we can get along just fine not knowing how to read maps; we already have a zillion tv channels not worth the time of day or night; we can already post messages from our rowing boat mid-Atlantic. What the hell more technology do we need in order to feel fulfilled as human beings? I guess trying to help lift others out of the Dark Ages, here on Earth, is too much to expect.

By no means does it diminish the value or relevance of the "why are we not spending on this" alternatives.

Rob

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: davidgp on February 08, 2018, 05:07:21 am
Yeah, but it looks like he has forgotten to bring a towel.

Not really, they put one in the glove box https://globalnews.ca/news/4011120/falcon-heavy-elon-musk-tesla-roadster-hidden-message/



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on February 08, 2018, 08:15:15 am
Inspiring. And to think he is an immigrant from a shithole country.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 08, 2018, 08:29:53 am
Poor asteroids ... 😉

(http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/auto/2018/01/23/tesla-allegedly-on-autopilot-rams-into-back-fire-truck/_jcr_content/par/featured_image/media-0.img.jpg/931/524/1516718509783.jpg?ve=1&tl=1&text=big-top-image)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: tom b on February 08, 2018, 09:30:11 am
Tesla's one billion loss in three months (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/other-industries/tesla-lost-1-billion-in-3-months/news-story/12ab1b2c198c2b28605cc4fa9e30e513).
 
Maybe missing Mars and hemmoraging one billion in three months may be a problem.

Glad it's not my problem,
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 08, 2018, 10:10:36 am
Tesla's one billion loss in three months (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/other-industries/tesla-lost-1-billion-in-3-months/news-story/12ab1b2c198c2b28605cc4fa9e30e513).
 
Maybe missing Mars and hemmoraging one billion in three months may be a problem.

Glad it's not my problem,

Yeah, but then with his new rocket pack, maybe he can get away from it all - just like Bond! Or Major Tom.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: William Walker on February 09, 2018, 09:01:55 am
Inspiring. And to think he is an immigrant from a shithole country.

 :) We in that "shithole country" sit back and smile....!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 09, 2018, 03:25:30 pm
Speaking of stuff in orbit, here's a video compiled from International Space Station footage of the ball o' rock & water we live on. It was put together by Seán Doran, also a skilled processor of JunoCam imagery. In 4K.

https://youtu.be/Xjs6fnpPWy4

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 09, 2018, 04:34:57 pm
Projected orbit of the Tesla (the green ellipse), but will likely be revised based on ongoing observation & calculation. It'll intersect our orbit but won't come close to us for centuries at least. Same goes for Mars.  :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 09, 2018, 04:48:35 pm
Rob, the human species makes its bones by outrunning the expectations and desires of its members who dream of plateau & equilibrium & stasis. This will continue for as long as we are who we are. Leave the refusal to look beyond the horizon to the chimpanzees.

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: MattBurt on February 09, 2018, 05:50:38 pm
We live on this planet and will continue so to do to until we end up destroying our ability to continue. It makes perfect sense to know as much about our habitat as we can learn. The Moon and space are not where we live, and as a species we never can. Even some places on Earth are out of limits for humans unless via centuries of acclimatization. We already have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out several worlds.

This kind of reminds me of people saying the early European explorers we going to just fall off the edge of the earth.
Or even just questioning the use of a New World since they already had the Old World.

Being able to leave our planet and live somewhere else just might come in handy one day.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 10, 2018, 06:19:57 am
This kind of reminds me of people saying the early European explorers we going to just fall off the edge of the earth.
Or even just questioning the use of a New World since they already had the Old World.

Being able to leave our planet and live somewhere else just might come in handy one day.

But this is dream: were it even physically possible, how many of Earth's population do you imagine could afford a seat? You really think you are going to be able to be put to sleep, shot into space and then wake up, have a good, healthy fart, brush your teeth and sally forth in your space suit and find everything ready and waiting for you, complete with band of musical "toy" soldiers to welcome your arrival? Really? Comparisons with exploration on a planet we already inhabit, which we are designed to inhabit, is a red herring of an argument. Especially so when one considers just how much of this planet of our own we still find ourselves unable to inhabit.

And of course, none of the counter-arguments so far have touched on why it might be better to continue relegating so many millions of our own species to lives of squalor, disease, hunger and thirst rather than cleaning up this part of our domestic act before looking beyond to new places we might despoil.

One good thing I am prepared to cede: sexual harassment would then become very difficult from within a space suit...

Rob
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 10, 2018, 09:13:46 am
O tempora! O mores! Rob The Socialist!  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 10, 2018, 12:59:44 pm
But this is dream: were it even physically possible, how many of Earth's population do you imagine could afford a seat?
Rob

I think, Rob, that you're missing the point.  Space exploration makes it possible for everyone to see what we're putting at risk. Absent this imagery, we're all ignorant.  With continued ignorance comes continued destruction.

Watch a little of Telecaster's link to "Orbit", preferably on a BFTV and not a laptop screen, and report back.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 10, 2018, 01:06:20 pm
O tempora! O mores! Rob The Socialist!  :D


Hardly; the rationalist.

:-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 10, 2018, 01:13:03 pm
I think, Rob, that you're missing the point.  Space exploration makes it possible for everyone to see what we're putting at risk. Absent this imagery, we're all ignorant.  With continued ignorance comes continued destruction.

Watch a little of Telecaster's link to "Orbit", preferably on a BFTV and not a laptop screen, and report back.


But Peter, we have seen our blue planet, the Moon, other immense, useless lumps of gas and dust that serve us not as future abode. Knowing we float in space is not something that needs further proof; what we need above all is a little bit of common sense back here on Earth. I think that is worth spending loose cash on more than looking the other way and deeply into the kaleidoscope of past and future.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 10, 2018, 02:06:10 pm

But Peter, we have seen our blue planet,

Arguably not like this. Maybe you have, but many haven't.  And certainly not with this clarity.

Quote
I think that is worth spending loose cash on more than looking the other way and deeply into the kaleidoscope of past and future.

We're not looking the other way.  We're looking at ourselves. As we've never been able to do before.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 10, 2018, 04:32:28 pm
You're still missing the point, Rob.  Space exploration accounts for about 0.05% of global GDP.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/150-people-in-astronomy/space-exploration-and-astronauts/general-questions/921-how-much-money-is-spent-on-space-exploration-intermediate

It's peanuts, but it gives us huge returns in terms of technological advancement quite apart from the inspirational aspects and the contribution to the economy in terms of jobs and so on.

For further perspective, this is about 1% of the global creative arts economy.  Yes, we spend about 100 times more on global creative arts than on space exploration.  So if we taxed the global arts economy just 1% we could direct that to your stated goals without having any significant impact on that sector.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/12/the-global-creative-economy-is-big-business/422013/

And before you decry that loss the arts, the most significant portion of that is television.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 10, 2018, 04:45:40 pm
Or put it this way: how many billions are spent on fashion and cosmetics industry?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 10, 2018, 05:25:18 pm
Or put it this way: how many billions are spent on fashion and cosmetics industry?

Indeed, but it probably remains on Earth. Sadly, not enough of that wealth came my way...

Thinking about astronomical figures, I wonder why anyone feels obliged to earn more than a million bucks a year; I could live a very comfortable life on a fraction (tiny!) of that...

Jus' musin'

Rob
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Telecaster on February 10, 2018, 05:31:10 pm
Nifty pic of the Falcon Heavy's final burn, a few hours after the booster stages separated. Taken by Jeremy David. https://www.jeremydavidphotography.com

-Dave-
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Chris Kern on February 10, 2018, 05:35:43 pm
Being able to leave our planet and live somewhere else just might come in handy one day.

But this is dream: were it even physically possible, how many of Earth's population do you imagine could afford a seat?

Not thee or me, but Elon Musk probably can.  He says he wants to die on Mars.  (Just not on impact.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 10, 2018, 05:38:30 pm
You're still missing the point, Rob.  Space exploration accounts for about 0.05% of global GDP.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/150-people-in-astronomy/space-exploration-and-astronauts/general-questions/921-how-much-money-is-spent-on-space-exploration-intermediate

It's peanuts, but it gives us huge returns in terms of technological advancement quite apart from the inspirational aspects and the contribution to the economy in terms of jobs and so on.

For further perspective, this is about 1% of the global creative arts economy.  Yes, we spend about 100 times more on global creative arts than on space exploration.  So if we taxed the global arts economy just 1% we could direct that to your stated goals without having any significant impact on that sector.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/12/the-global-creative-economy-is-big-business/422013/

And before you decry that loss the arts, the most significant portion of that is television.


There you are! Tax tv lots more! All it does is pay footballers enough millions a year to discourage normal kids from studying hard in order to try and get good grades... Just like my bloody Internet and 'phone company: they spend millions on Formula 1 and other sports when instead, they could reduce my horrifc monthly communication bills to next to nothing. Everybody here has to rent their lines, whether they are independent telephone suppliers or not - advertising is pointless for them as they already get a piece of everything. Just like the Sopranos, then. But hey, it must be nice being one of their directors; I could enjoy freebies at the Monaco GP too, were some poor shmuck on a pension paying for my jollies.

Yes, lots of fat to trim!

:-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: degrub on February 10, 2018, 06:20:07 pm
and ever it was.. and will be.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 10, 2018, 06:42:01 pm
Or put it this way: how many billions are spent on fashion and cosmetics industry?

Indeed, that would also dwarf space exploration.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 10, 2018, 07:02:50 pm
Also, if I am not mistaken, Elon is spending his money (and his private investors), not taxpayers' money.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: LesPalenik on February 10, 2018, 08:25:01 pm
Or put it this way: how many billions are spent on fashion and cosmetics industry?

Not only cosmetics, but also cosmetic surgeries. Recent report from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS) found that Americans spent $16 billion on cosmetic plastic surgery and minimally invasive procedures in 2016. For comparison, Spacex Falcon Heavy launch cost $90 million. That's about as much as just the buttock augmentations in 2016.
For the cost of breast augmentations we could send Tesla Semi Truck to another galaxy (with a complete team of cosmetic surgeons).

•Breast augmentation — more than 290,000 procedures at a cost of about $3,700 each.

•Liposuction — about 235,000 procedures at $3,200.

•Nose reshaping — 223,000 procedures at $5,000.

•Tummy tuck — almost 128,000 procedures at around $5,800.

•Buttock augmentation — nearly 19,000 procedures at about $4,400.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-cost-of-plastic-surgery-procedures-health-0503-20170413-story.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: tom b on February 11, 2018, 01:27:52 am
Not only cosmetics, but also cosmetic surgeries. Recent report from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS) found that Americans spent $16 billion on cosmetic plastic surgery and minimally invasive procedures in 2016. For comparison, Spacex Falcon Heavy launch cost $90 million. That's about as much as just the buttock augmentations in 2016.
For the cost of breast augmentations we could send Tesla Semi Truck to another galaxy (with a complete team of cosmetic surgeons).

•Breast augmentation — more than 290,000 procedures at a cost of about $3,700 each.

•Liposuction — about 235,000 procedures at $3,200.

•Nose reshaping — 223,000 procedures at $5,000.

•Tummy tuck — almost 128,000 procedures at around $5,800.

•Buttock augmentation — nearly 19,000 procedures at about $4,400.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-cost-of-plastic-surgery-procedures-health-0503-20170413-story.html

I had surgeries to remove a basal cell carcinoma on my nose, hey I'm Australian in the skin cancer capital of the world. Thank you crazy Americans, unless told you wouldn't notice that I had two surgeries. Plastic surgeons aren't all bad.

Still smiling,
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: David Sutton on February 11, 2018, 02:58:04 am
Also, if I am not mistaken, Elon is spending his money (and his private investors), not taxpayers' money.
Subsidies are not taxpayers' money?
He'd likely be out of business if it weren't for the billions of your money (one estimate here (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 11, 2018, 05:02:26 am
Subsidies are not taxpayers' money?
He'd likely be out of business if it weren't for the billions of your money (one estimate here (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)).

That's over the course of more than a decade and represents about 0.026% of US GDP from just a single year.  Of all the things governments spend money on, investing in new tech like this for such a small amount seems like a pretty good move.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 11, 2018, 05:52:55 am
I had surgeries to remove a basal cell carcinoma on my nose, hey I'm Australian in the skin cancer capital of the world. Thank you crazy Americans, unless told you wouldn't notice that I had two surgeries. Plastic surgeons aren't all bad.

Still smiling,

Tell me about it.

Seven or eight years of living in India, many many trips to sunspots on holiday and for business, and now thirty-seven or more years of living on the Med. I have been told I have actinic keratosis and had two lumps cut from my face: one above a nostril and another from my ear. No plastics so far - I don't give a damn how I look. The keratosis requires a very expensive cream on my mug every time I decide I need to go outdoors; the surgery for the basals was painless and involved a discussion with the doc and nurse about current pop music. I mentioned Chuck B and they asked who dat be? One eventually said ah! Rock and Roll! Even worse, an estate agent was in the house looking at my own shots of the place when he spotted the pro gallery and wanted a peek. When I reached the Bardot shots, he asked: who she? Well, he is from South America, so I suppose that's okay. There comes a massive disconnect between generations.

I hope our carcinomas do not return.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Rob C on February 11, 2018, 05:57:30 am
That's over the course of more than a decade and represents about 0.026% of US GDP from just a single year.  Of all the things governments spend money on, investing in new tech like this for such a small amount seems like a pretty good move.


That's the trouble with figures: they mask the underlying reality of problems and reduce everything not to priority but numbers. Numbers tell you nothing of moral or relative values, only of numbers.

As argument they are worthless unless you are willing to assume that everything is equal in importance.

Rob
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 11, 2018, 04:16:50 pm

That's the trouble with figures: they mask the underlying reality of problems and reduce everything not to priority but numbers. Numbers tell you nothing of moral or relative values, only of numbers.

As argument they are worthless unless you are willing to assume that everything is equal in importance.

Rob

The problem with not using numbers, or with abusing them (quoting "billions" because it's emotive and seems a lot), is that you take an entirely subjective view of the issue.  You need to consider both sides, and dismissing numbers that go against "how you feel" is truly worthless.

That's why I mentioned both the numbers (and how small they are relatively), as well as previously pointing out the benefits of technological advancement and development.  If we want to accelerate development in certain areas (clean energy, for example), then governments providing benefits for business to encourage them and get things started is well worthwhile.  That's both in numbers and value to the world.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: David Sutton on February 11, 2018, 04:28:47 pm
That's why I mentioned both the numbers (and how small they are relatively), as well as previously pointing out the benefits of technological advancement and development.  If we want to accelerate development in certain areas (clean energy, for example), then governments providing benefits for business to encourage them and get things started is well worthwhile.  That's both in numbers and value to the world.
That's fair enough, though we will have to wait some years to find out if it was money well spent.
Let me put out some counter ideas which are opinion only.
It may be a good investment but on the other hand:
How much is actually new tech?
Musk's ventures have never made a profit and never will. They are about hype, not usefulness. For example, if you wanted a car that minimises fossil fuel use over its entire life, from manufacture to disposal, a Mitsubishi Mirage beats a Tesla hands down.
Speaking of Tesla, it has always made a loss, but its shares are valued way higher than Nissan, who also makes an electric car but also makes a profit. What's that about?
Its technology is based on materials like cobalt and copper for which there are no new easily accessible reserves. To give you an idea, Rio Tinto have started a fracking operation in Arizona (down 7,00 feet) to extract copper. Technically an achievement but it it says a lot about the future cost and availability of copper.
I'm a pessimist when it comes to doing more of the same to solve our problems. I don't see that using the same type of thinking that got us into our difficulties will get us out. It's "wishful thinking". As my dad used to say, you can wish in one hand and wee in the other, and see which fills up first.
David
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 11, 2018, 04:45:51 pm
... Speaking of Tesla, it has always made a loss, but its shares are valued way higher than Nissan, who also makes an electric car but also makes a profit. What's that about? ...

The same as with any other stock price: expectations of future returns.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: David Sutton on February 11, 2018, 04:55:45 pm
The same as with any other stock price: expectations of future returns.
Quite. I was thinking more along the lines of "there's one born every minute". But in an investment world without price discovery, who can tell?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: MattBurt on February 11, 2018, 10:56:06 pm
I have a feeling that without SpaceX or other space agencies, there would still be starving people and mass suffering in the world. I don't think there is much of a connection between the two as it stands at the moment. But maybe we could discover something that would help through exploration? Maybe not too, but that is how exploration goes. It's to know the unknown. Sometimes the unknown has no value once known but sometimes it has immense value and you never know until you do!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: Farmer on February 12, 2018, 02:13:48 pm
Exactly right, Matt.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon Heavy Launches Elon's Tesla
Post by: amolitor on February 13, 2018, 02:24:26 pm
Falcon Heavy is a larger milestone than most people know. It marks the first time Elon Musk has actually delivered something that was difficult. Electric cars are launching stuff into low earth orbit were both literally within reach of moderately well funded amateurs before Musk started hyping his companies. His accomplishments up until now are basically in wrapping (well understood) corporate and fund raising structures around (well understood, fairly simple) technologies, and hyping the crap out of them.

Falcon  Heavy is actually pretty hard.

He's still not going to Mars, of course. But at least he's managed to accomplish something that's more than a glossy version of a toy.