Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: andrewparker on September 25, 2006, 06:20:31 am
-
I'd like to start a debate, among contributors to the medium format digital forum, on the question of whether pseudonymous postings are/are not desirable.
I notice that this forum has begun to get back to the intensity levels of the old RG forums, even without many of the well known contributors, but I fear and expect that this situation will not last or develop while anonymous contributions are allowed.
If a Mr Pinky800 says a Leaf back is good idea, we don't know if he hasn't just read that somewhere else on the internet, if James Russell says so, we know that he has road tested Leaf backs to hell and back within a certain specified workflow, and we know James Russell. The observation means something. I am afraid that is human nature.
I cannot recall a single contributor of any substance to the old RG medium format digital forum who kept their real name secret.
It reflects very well on those camera back manufacturers and dealers who are willing to come on these forums and put their livelihoods on the line- but imagine if such people were seeking to influence our opinions of their products and services through anonymous postings?
I don't know what motivates the anonymous poster to hide their identity but I think we can safely reassure them that in liberal democracies no-one is in danger of getting killed over their opinions on this or that digital camera back.
Anyone who disagres with this, and I am sure there are many, will need to point me in the direction of a long term successful professional photography discussion board where solid advice and opinion based on real experience is available, and where anonymity is allowed.
We could get this forum back up to the level of the benchmark RG forums if we disallowed anonymous postings- even if it meant losing some valued "pseudonymists".
Andrew Parker
-
Andrew,
I agree completely..but as people already have usernames set up then that should be fine as long as we are posting our websites in our signatures..not sure how easy it is to change a username here.
Marc
-
I cannot recall a single contributor of any substance to the old RG medium format digital forum who kept their real name secret.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While I agree with you that the naming convention was one of the strong points of the RG forums, isn't it also true that:
- for valuable contributions it is already the case anyway (as you pointed out),
- even a true name can be as anonymous as anything if opinions or supposed "expertise" is concerned,
- it's a simple matter of choice now,
- there is no viable way to check someone's true name...
-
Surely one simple ascribes a greater degree of trust to postings from a named individual than a pseudonymous one?
Leave it up to the intelligent reader.
Anyone who takes anything posted on the web at face value needs to have their head examined anyway.
-
I'd like to start a debate, among contributors to the medium format digital forum, on the question of whether pseudonymous postings are/are not desirable.
I notice that this forum has begun to get back to the intensity levels of the old RG forums, even without many of the well known contributors, but I fear and expect that this situation will not last or develop while anonymous contributions are allowed.
Hi
I use my real name which links to our web site. I think it is important to do so. I take the risk of junk emails etc but who cares. We just had our work posted on the Leaf web site which is the back we use most. And we are 95% MFD users and I think forms like this are really important. The RG form was fantastic and I had only been a member for a few months then it was killed! We lost a lot of great members and I hope they come back! I have looked at other forms and this is really the only one I can find. We really have to thank Michael for having us!! I feel this form is growing for the better.
Thanks Denis Montalbetti
-
Real names and web links just ADD value some here are hiding thier laurels
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I have spotted who MCFOTO is I am blown away
DAMIAN has added his links (I knew who he was anyway) - he is a major inspiration in the UK for his family work
Checking out my site will prove that I am just a blatherring idiot to be ignored at all costs
The links from RG led my not only to believe who I was reading but to be inspired to improve my work artistically as well as technically
THere is of course no snobbery implied there is nothing wrong with not being a PRO or less experienced
all we want to avoid is posters firming up web rumours as fact
Incidentally most or us dont post our gear listing as we see gear ownership as only a fraction of the job and stricktly the terrorotry of camera club goons - I would be proud to have less..
(Eyelike Emotion 22, Hass H1, Kodak SLRn nikkors 14 - 600, sinar/rodenstock bla bla bla)
Ex owner (most important) Mamiya, Proback,
-
I like a bit of mystery. I'm not sure it does any harm. I'm happy to supply my details because I know them anyway. Some of the best posts are annonymous. Okay there may be the odd dodgy bit of speculation but thats exciting. If newspapers had to list all their sources for info they would be a pretty boring read. Annonymity allows a bit of devils advocate, a bit of risque banter and a bit of excitement. If the bandwitdth can take it and the simple rules of polite well meaning posts are strictly adhered to I'm okay with perky500 and phase2. I easy and will go with the flow whatever is decided.
Damien.
-
Interesting point but what if you are known to far more people by your username than your real name?
Wayland is a nickname I've had in real life for twenty years, a lot of people I know would probably have to think hard to remember my "real" name so posting as "Gary Waidson" would guarantee my anonymity.
-
I agree with Wayland.
A name is a name is a name. And it might be true or false.
A post from Gustav Gregoritsch is not better than a post by greg99987, just because of the name.
And it doesn't even gurantee that the post is by Gustav Gregoritsch.
You will find a post useful or great because of it's contents (and how well it fits to what you want to hear ) not because of the name.
If you want to learn something about the person behind the (nick)name you will have to look at their work and the other postings or even talk to them.
And sometimes the nick reveals more about the person than their real name.
Regards
Stephan Hess aka brumbaer (for about 30 years. I started using this that nick to sign "corrective patches" in my youth, way before the internet got known)
-
This lightly used thread is still for sale, if anyone wants it.
I think events in the last few days have proven that real names are a good idea if the forum is to avoid the RG shipwreck.
Sam Morgan Moore is right- many of the pseudonymous posters are hiding their laurels.
There have been a few heated rows where you can't help feeling the language would have been self moderated if the poster had not been hiding behind a pseudonym, plus we have had Yair the Leaf representative expressing his understandable reluctance to engage with a nameless poster when things get controversial, and then there's been the element of paranoia that some anonymous posters might be representing other manufacturers- probably not true but that's the nature of paranoia.
You have to think whether our esteemed moderator will think it worth his time handling rows between faceless egg throwers.....
Andrew Parker
-
I think events in the last few days have proven that real names are a good idea if the forum is to avoid the RG shipwreck.
If memory serves me well, only real names were used on the RG forums?
-
If memory serves me well, only real names were used on the RG forums?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=80533\")
I don't think the RG forums are the best example of how to do it right.
They had their own agenda, whether I agreeded or not, it was there's to do with what they wish and they did.
Still, for any professional to post a thought or give out information they need to have some idea of who they are talking to and the level of experience that person posesses.
Right or wrong, I'm not going to get into a conversation with someone over the mertis of my workflow or a particular lens if they've only used a Canon D-30, or shoot cats in the living room.
I really don't understand these id's anyway, why would you post and not put your real name?
What's the purpose?
JR
[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/]http://ishotit.com/[/url]
-
If you would like to know who I am just ask. I am not trying to be anonymous, but I just created a name that I also use on the Leaf forum. Since I have received phone call regarding a few of my post, its not to hard to figure out who I am.
-
If you would like to know who I am just ask. I am not trying to be anonymous, but I just created a name that I also use on the Leaf forum. Since I have received phone call regarding a few of my post, its not to hard to figure out who I am.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80565\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed, there are forums that suffer from idiotic postings by anonymous. However, with all due respect, I have *not* seen any such posting *here* .
When I sign a science paper, I write more carefully than when I have an off the cuff discussion. And this place is for off the cuff discussions with guys who know stuff. As Pixohn and Brumbaer indicate, we mostly know who we are. Ain't that good enough ?
Edmund
-
I wouldn't say or write anything I wouldn't put my name on. Nothing to hide, so why hide, regardless of how easy it might bt to uncover me.
-
ok, signature added.
-
If I may add a comment, I understand that when talking on a rather professional level (I am not part of that group) it is just more adequate to show that there is nothing to hide. Although I am mostly participating as a reading and passive member (and learning a lot, just as in the old RG forum) I just added a sig with my real name (hope it's working).
Specifically when it is about critisizing a product, or a whole company it is - in my eyes - better to reveal one's identity, simply.
With kind regards,
Bernie
-
Still, for any professional to post a thought or give out information they need to have some idea of who they are talking to and the level of experience that person posesses. Right or wrong, I'm not going to get into a conversation with someone over the mertis of my workflow or a particular lens if they've only used a Canon D-30, or shoot cats in the living room. I really don't understand these id's anyway, why would you post and not put your real name?
What's the purpose?
JR
I have been a part of moderating several forums similar to this one. While this one is a good start, my own personal suggestion is that, in its current form, it will never evolve into a truly honest, professional level, due to the fact that the participants are not required to sign in, go by their true real names, and show a website or email link.
I feel that this Medium Format forum should really not even be viewable over the Internet without each person registering and signing in each time. True professionals with real world experience simply will not contribute, unless this rule would go into effect. This leaves a forum with the vast majority of the people only having questions and never getting answers, since no one with experience would be willing to answer. Witness the current state of the old RG.com forums, if you doubt my word. The end result of this often leaves a massive amount of disinformation; speculation based on no facts; and no one really learning that much. I see it in post after post on this forum.
I would suggest that this forum be taken private. It's one thing for some guy with a 5D wanting to know what zoom lens to buy to shoot his kid's soccer game, but it's quite another for a true professional to share valued information, when he has no idea who he's talking to. Personally, I'd NEVER reply to anyone using one of those silly alias names. Show your face, show your website, show your email, come out of the shadows, and maybe a professional might answer your question. But since the owner of this entire site just goes by his first name in these forums, I guess this policy would never change. Plus, he garners a following by the potential purchasers of those DVDs by allowing the entire universe to just waltz in here, anonymously, and view anything, without the slightest amount of responsibility.
This is my constructive feedback. You've got to pick a path. One path is like a bunch of kids in a Chat Room, trying to say that they know the difference between a Leaf file and a Phase file, when in truth, they've probably never seen a digital back, in person, in their entire life, let alone tested the two side by side, under identical conditions. The other path, if set up properly and responsibly, leads to true, honest, responsibly sharing of information by real professionals. You can't have it both ways. I would hate to be some guy risking $30k on a back, and come here and have this forum as the only source of information. I know people mean well here, but speculation and honest experience are two radically different things.
Good luck. And buyer beware.
Mark Tucker
http://www.marktucker.com (http://www.marktucker.com)
-
I would hate to be some guy risking $30k on a back, and come here and have this forum as the only source of information.
You highlight a number of valid concerns,Mark but I think you're being a little unfair on balance
when one considers that access information to one of the 'pro' forums that you moderate
is more difficult than finding directions to a Klan cross burning.
Mark Tomalty
www.marktomalty.com
www.masterfile.com keyword:tomalty
-
when one considers that access information to one of the 'pro' forums that you moderate
is more difficult than finding directions to a Klan cross burning.
Mark Tomalty
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80604\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd like to know whether any of the underground pro forums have been active enough to prove useful?
-
I'd like to know whether any of the underground pro forums have been active enough to prove useful?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know what underground means, but private forums can be very useful if the participants are knowledgable and the agenda is non selfish.
Let's be realistic, RG, Fred Miranda, even this site have an agenda beyond just the sharing of information and the building of a professional community.
Not that there is anything wrong with Micahel's DVD's or seminars or RG's advertising, FM scripts, they are all very clear what their motivation is and have never once hidden it.
Still, when someone with a following, like Mark, post on this forum it adds viewship for what really is a for profit enterprise.
Mark, as I have only posted in public to share, or to hopefully learn, but there has never been an added agenda to our posts and at some point I had to step back and ask myself why was I investing the time to participate.
Still, there is nothing wrong or hidden with most private forums, it's just much easier and safer to post "work product" information on a private forum that to take the risk of laying it out there in public, because you know exactly who you are talking to and if the sharing is reciprocal.
Everytime I am willing to post publically, someone on one of these public forums gets in a DP Review type argument, or like I read recently on this forum some photogrpaher was mad because he wasn't allowed on a private forum and had a hissy fit.
To me, that type of post comes across to me as bitter and makes me want to stay away from the public forums.
But to answer the question, yes private forums are very, very effective if the agenda is clear and everyone is honest and open. In fact it becomes more than just a place to kill time or find a quick software fix.
You become part of a trusted community where the world becomes your production base and sharing is the rule, not the exception. You learn people's personalities, enjoy the differences and most importantly appreciate the trust.
Yes private forums are very effecitve.
IMO
JR
-
I don't know what underground means, but private forums can be very useful if the participants are knowledgable and the agenda is non selfish.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi James,
Underground means private and hard to find.
I ask because I was on a couple of private forums which sprouted up when RobG hit the skids, and there was VERY little activity. I guess I ended up coming back to a couple public forums for the breadth of knowledge.
On this site, especially in the Printers forum, I have gotten a lot of useful informaiton.
Best,
-ron
-
Still, there is nothing wrong or hidden with most private forums, it's just much easier and safer to post "work product" information on a private forum that to take the risk of laying it out there in public, because you know exactly who you are talking to and if the sharing is reciprocal.
My point is simply that you can only expect so much from a public forum, where the rules are very loose, like they are here. The rules could change, with feedback to the administrator, to require more accountability from each participant, or they could stay the same and maintain only a certain level of sharing.
There is a definite difference between 35mm geartalk amongst amateurs, and then Medium Format gear, where many people really make their living with it and their income and reputation is based on their shooting and post-production. Nothing wrong with vacation pictures, but you won't get a lot of quality feedback from pros. And if you're a working professional, my feeling is that you should be willing to share your name, website, etc if you come to a forum and ask questions. It adds context, and it also encourages more responsible communication. If you went into a meeting with a client, you wouldn't introduce yourself as "leicalover69" or something silly like that. We are all adults; this is not a Chat Room on MySpace.
There is a lot to learn, and keep up with, in all this Medium Format Confusion. It seems sensible to try to get quality information when we're all sharing, and it adds context to know if you're reading something from a real photographer who's actually using these cameras, or if you're reading something from a Weekend Warrior. Whatever the case, solid communication starts with a proper introduction, a real name, and hopefully a website reference to see where a guy is coming from. This is simply one subjective opinion.
-
Of course all IMHO and nothing personal.
I understand Mark's points and while I can understand them I think it's a wrong attitude.
For one no 35mm guy asks for the best 5D lens in the medium format forum and when he does he will be redirected, so that kind of noise can be ignored.
But a 35mm guy might get interested to upgrade to MF and will not get any information, because you lock him out, because he is not worthy.
He might be the next Cartier Bresson, but you lock him out.
Why is it bad to give information to a 30D user, but good to give information to an MF user ?
You lost the information on your CF card and can't recover it, but some bloke with a Coolpix had the same problem and found out if you shortcut pin 7 and 9 with a strip of wire and a ducttape the card is still broken, but you can at least recover you data. Your job is lost because you locked him out.
A guy is a PS wiz and found the ultimate shadow hilighter without any noise, because his Casio from 1996 has a real need for such a procedure, but you never learn from him, because you locked him out.
Why is a guy who bought a flashy website more worthy than the guy who takes much better pictures, but doesn't have a website.
Or why is a pro more worthy or better than an amateur.
There are so called pros and you look at their pictures and you wonder what the term pro might stand for.
I know from computer business that being paied for a job and called pro has nothing to do with quality of work (it's an indication at the best). And when I look at the photographs taken by pros and amateurs I'm very much inclined to say the same for photography.
Over the years I had the opportunity to look in differnt private fora and I'm not impressed by the knowledge in those fora.
The knowledge is firm, but it's not nearly as good as the myth about those fora makes you believe. Obviously it depends on the members and being private locks out people you shouldn't have and people you should have alike.
What impresses me in private fora is the way, how people interact with each other, but admittedly this part of the LL forums (I can't speak for the others) is pretty good in this respect as well.
Sometimes I get the feeling it is more like an old/young generation thing or a crafts guild thing.
We "old farts" don't want to accept that the "youngsters" might just know as much or probably more as we do about certain things, and we want to make sure that if they don't already do it, they never will. At least not before they become "old farts" themselves.
Forgetting that innovation and knowledge can come from the outside and especially innovation often from the young
I agree that private fora have their use,
not as a place for the gathering of knowledge,
but they make a very good place as a Club of likely minded people or a crafts guild.
Regards
Stephan Hess (who isn't known by anyone) or
Brumbaer (who is known in certain circles at least)
-
Sorry for a second reply so shortly,
but I didn't want to mix topics.
What hasn't been mentioned about "nicks" is that anonymity might be desired or does make sense.
I'm not talking about prosecution by an government because your image style is to westerly or easterly or southly or northly. More mundane things. Like somebody working for a company in the camera business, but not allowed to or not willing to post as a company representative. He just wants to post as a hobbyist. But no matter what preamble he uses, it will always be Mr. Nikon said or somebody close to Leaf hinted and so on.
Of course he can give a fake name, but what sense do names make when they are fake.
A list of gear doesn't help, because we all know it's the technique not the size.
So there is the website as legitimation. Which doesn't really help, because some people don't have any and the ability to create a website and to be able to convert an image so it looks good in a browser doesn't say anything about his photgraphic expertise, which may be creating stunning prints.
mfg
SH (my usual way to sign e-mails to people I regulary exchange e-mails with) aka
Stephan Hess aka
Brumbaer
-
If I, as a representative of a company, enter a conversation about technical matters related to the product. I would like to have SOME information about the other side.
If a prospect rings me up to ask for details, they will ALWAYS give me some details, names, background etc. This will help me give a focused answer and detail.
If it's all public and there are numerous "listeners" who don't contribute to the coversation, that's fine. But anyone entering the conversation, to gain minimum credibility, has to find a way to show where his/ her words come from.
I cannot take someone seriously if I don't know who he/ she is. One doesn't need to be a working pro (what's a working pro anyway?) to gain credibility.
My 2¢ worth
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Creo UK Ltd., a subsidiary of Kodak.
---------------------------------------
Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Please notice my email address has changed to yair.shahar@kodak.com please update your contacts thanks!!![/span]
-
Of course all IMHO and nothing personal.
I understand Mark's points and while I can understand them I think it's a wrong attitude.
Why is a guy who bought a flashy website more worthy than the guy who takes much better pictures, but doesn't have a website.
Or why is a pro more worthy or better than an amateur.
What impresses me in private fora is the way, how people interact with each other, but admittedly this part of the LL forums (I can't speak for the others) is pretty good in this respect as well.
I agree that private fora have their use,
not as a place for the gathering of knowledge,
but they make a very good place as a Club of likely minded people or a crafts guild.
Regards
Stephan Hess (who isn't known by anyone) or
Brumbaer (who is known in certain circles at least)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In the old RG forum, Mark Tucker, James Russell, Tim Griffith, all made valuable contributions. All of us benefited, as I'm sure they too did. That forum collapsed for various reasons, but not because it was a public forum. I did not see anyone advocating a private forum at that time. Michael has given us a place where some talk, and some like me listen.
And Brumbaer's Tools sounds better than Hess' Tools
Kumar (no website as yet)
-
Its a funny old world
There probably is NO correct answer
My take is I have had a H1 and back for over a year, and a proback before that
I put a lot of effort into making theses purchases with much guidance from RG - for some bizzare reason I am happy to share these experiences
However - here - I make posts that I feel I give hard earned information away - posts that (mirror slap) reflect Mr Tuckers early posts
But people dont seem to listen or at least dont acknowledge - very frustrating
I am posting as MF OWNER WITH INFORMATION FOR POTELNTIAL BUYERS
------------
At RG I used to read the tribulations of HIGH END COMMERCIAL PHOTOGRAPHERS with awe
Because I am a WANNABE HIGH END SHOOTER
These guys moved my photography forward - mainly through me checking out thier websites
With the privatisation I feel I have been robbed of a resource whether this is on purpose (they dont want to share hard won information) or just bad luck I dont know
--------------
As quite an experienced web programmer (TECH HEAD) on occasion I felt I could give the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS some insite on occasion
---------------
Some of the stuff on this site is total chaff but then BRUMBAER, someone with no impressive web presence, (TECH HEAD) pops up with a unique bit of software for free - WOW!
------------------
So what we have is a community of
HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS
MF OWNERS WITH INFORMATION FOR POTELNTIAL BUYERS
MF CONSIDERERS
TECH HEADS
there are also
WEEKEND WARRIORS, GOOGLE RUMOUR MONGERERS, and SPAMMERS that just seem to mess things up
-----------------------
It is shame that the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS have left the party because people kept breaking thier toys and with out heavy (but correct) moderation thier toys will keep getting broken
Maybe the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS would consider opening their forum in a read only manner - and on occasion post here to MF CONSIDERERS this is the price they should consider paying in exchange for occasional gems from TECH HEADs etc
I bet a pile of HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS grabbed mr BRUMBAERs sofware - with no thanks
The answer is probably a board that is heavily moderated and maybe has a private area
SHOOTING HIGH END
TIPS FROM THE TOP - HELP PLEASE
CONSIDERING MF - HELP PLEASE
TECHNICAL NIGHTMARES - HELP PLEASE
SMM
-
Kumar another thing RG had was only quoting minimal bits of other people posts.!!
LOL
SMM
-
Kumar another thing RG had was only quoting minimal bits of other people posts.!!
LOL
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sam,
Point taken!
Kumar
-
Actually, I feel we have it pretty good here:
- a lot of good shooters.
- a lot of very competent tech-heads who know their way around the most complex software.
- mostly everyone is polite most of the time.
I suggest we go back to business as usual, talking about photo experiences, helping our friends solve problems. I needed some sample files, I got them fast via contacts on this forum (Thank you Tim!).
This place works as it is. Let's use it and make it even better.
Edmund
-
This place works as it is. Let's use it and make it even better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
for you maybe (an MF CONSIDERER??) but less so for me without the TOP LINE COMMERCIAL GUYS
Some of us need them and on occaision they need us
S
-
for you maybe (an MF CONSIDERER??) but less so for me without the TOP LINE COMMERCIAL GUYS
Some of us need them and on occaision they need us
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80640\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What's stopping you from posting your issues and reflections and seeing who responds ?
Edmund
-
Regardless of your situation - Casio user or MF user - revealing who you are, what you look like even, enhances the forum. I feel anonymity encourages less than candid communication. It's a little harder to be a dork when you're looking at the face of Edmund Ronald. He's a guy that you're sharing opinions with, that you might share a brew with even, if you happened to be in the right place at the right time.
But an anonymous poster, you don't kow who he is, and he may say something that you don't take quite the right way, and then your emotion gets a little skewed, egged on by the possibility he may just be a twit Casio user somewhere!
I do think that it's a great thing when everyone on this forum knows everyone else's name, has even seen some of the great (and not so great ) work on their sites, seen their faces and developed a real sense of community. Being a public forum, it's a very loose sort of community, but a community of "mostly" like-minded members, just the same. I've been a contributor to public and to private forums, and I can tell you most definitely, that when contributor identity is shared, it becomes a much more interesting place.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
-
So perhaps we can agree that in order to be taken seriously on this MF fuorum, everyone should should use their real names (at least in the signature, as I think it's impossible to change one's screenn make without making anohter acount.)
And when new users come into the MF area, we may gently let them know that they should use their real name and URL if they want serious answers to questions.
And perhaps we cound recommend that Michael compel users of this forum to step out of the shadows.
What say?
-ron
-
I am a MF & Nikon D2x user also old RG MF forum user. MF being a such a small community, if one has a problem with their product & service is not up to expectations, than for me it would be a little difficult to share the experience, in case one has to work with his/her rep again. As all statement do stay in this cyberspace forever. May be it is just my own uncomfortable experience is talking & is not generally applicable. But it is always nice to see MarkTucker's & James Russel's posts. I do hope you post often here.
-
I hate to say it but I think what's missing from this board is a light amount of moderation. The moderation on the RG boards was ridiculous and extreme but it did occasionally serve a purpose to keep the noise down to a minimum. This board is suddenly getting a huge number of traffic and with that we're starting to see a number of lousy posts. The week of Photokina saw no less than 5 or 6 different posts on the H3 discussing the EXACT same thing. In the last few days there was a post on the "rumor" of a Canon medium format camera that was just dumb and yet people actually replied to it! And now we're starting to see individual for sale posts which from my reading of what Michael wrote on the subject wasn't what he intended.
I'm here to ask questions and share my limited knowledge of MFD. I've asked a few questions recently that I'm sure others have dealt with and yet received one or two replies. The medium format back poll Edmund created gives a pretty good idea of how many users here are shooting with MFD - 69. I would think the level of discourse would be just a little higher and more professional if there's truly that many people shooting MFD here. The higher the quality of the conversation the better and more knowledgeable the photographers it will attract. If the only way to do that is to require registration to view the forum I'm all for it.
I second Ron's suggestion about "gently" reminding folks to use their real names if they want to be taken seriously.
-
Perhaps I'm a bit different than those here.
In the 80's I was shooting in a studio with 5,000 sq/ft of finished space, using Sinar, Hasselblad, Nikon, and Profoto. The computer was a Kaypro. Shooting advertising. Decided to shoot only location when I moved to Arizona in the 90's. Had an accident and back surgery in less than a year. The ability to stay on a 'professional' schedule disappeared.
Now I work out of my house using a Contax system with a P45, a Canon system, numerous Apple computers with extra external drives on a calibrated system using Imageprint to an Epson 4800. Still use Profoto and Sinar.
Not disclosed for pecking order, just context.
Today I shoot a few assignments and the rest of the time I shoot whatever projects interest me. As I am no longer dependant on shooting as a source of income I suppose I am no longer considered a "shooter" by some, and yet no matter what I am photographing I bring to it the same enthusiasm and professionalism that I had before.
Making the switch to high-end digital was possible only because of the RG forum and seeing what experiences people were kind enough to share. Esoteric expensive equipment, some of which I discovered would work for me and some wouldn't. I posted questions only when I couldn't find the answer elsewhere and posted answers when I had information that worked for me. Still do.
So I'm not sure whether I qualify under Mark Tucker's guidelines. Or other people who would benefit from his experience, or James' or Tim's. But the nice thing about the system is that you only have to read and respond to the messages and threads you want to, so there is leeway built in. (I would totally understand it if Mark Tucker wanted to create a private forum for his stories, because I would be sorely tempted to pay just to read the Tucker Chronicles again!)
Since I see any worthwhile forum somewhat analgous to sitting around a table having a beer with friends I've always signed my name to the bottom of posts since 1994. I like to see a name somewhere so I know who I'm talking to. For me pseudonyms recall that line in the Wizard of OZ: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"
Mark Tuttle
-
A lot of good points, but here is the bottom line.....
Without your real name some folks continue to be nasy and rude. With your real name you are more likely to take responsibility for what you say and do.
What is the issue about underground forums?
Someone please clue me in?
Private forums and mailing lists are pretty typical in the professional arena for obvious reasons. I know many people who subscribe to forums that are run by trade organizations and wish not to open them up to the spamming and malicious nonsense that plagues open forum settings.
I have to agree that everyone should be required to identify who they are, inquiring minds want to know.
-
I agree like most other people that we should sign using our real names and give our web addresses. If we did, then maybe there wouldn't be the nastiness that has surfaced on this forum just recently. The nastiness on the old RG forum mainly came from the moderators in my opinion. I don't particularly like closed private forums either because I reckon it smacks of elitism.
I'll look at anybody's work amateur or professional if I feel I can learn from it. The main criteria is it has to be good. I've known many an amateur produce superb work that would put a few pros to shame. Same for advice too, I'll listen to all. After twenty odd years as a pro in this business I find the learning curve gets steeper and steeper with the new technology. Exciting times indeed, so I better keep looking and listening. If I can pass on any help along the way that's just great too. I think this forum is shaping up in a real nice way and for me it is now beginning to be a daily must read just like the RG forum was before it imploded.
Barrie Watts
www.barriewatts.co.uk
-
My point is simply that you can only expect so much from a public forum, where the rules are very loose, like they are here. The rules could change, with feedback to the administrator, to require more accountability from each participant, or they could stay the same and maintain only a certain level of sharing.
There is a definite difference between 35mm geartalk amongst amateurs, and then Medium Format gear, where many people really make their living with it and their income and reputation is based on their shooting and post-production. Nothing wrong with vacation pictures, but you won't get a lot of quality feedback from pros. And if you're a working professional, my feeling is that you should be willing to share your name, website, etc if you come to a forum and ask questions. It adds context, and it also encourages more responsible communication. If you went into a meeting with a client, you wouldn't introduce yourself as "leicalover69" or something silly like that. We are all adults; this is not a Chat Room on MySpace.
There is a lot to learn, and keep up with, in all this Medium Format Confusion. It seems sensible to try to get quality information when we're all sharing, and it adds context to know if you're reading something from a real photographer who's actually using these cameras, or if you're reading something from a Weekend Warrior. Whatever the case, solid communication starts with a proper introduction, a real name, and hopefully a website reference to see where a guy is coming from. This is simply one subjective opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well all i can say is hello to some of the RG forum regulars
i lttle history - I was the guy who stirred up the long disussion on RG regarding CMYK proofs vs color profiles vs offset printing companies vs photographers vs the big bad world vs adobe vs heidelberg vs all of the other evils in the world of color reproduction
well here i am take your shots at me
good to see some of the "names" from the RG site here
ps - i lost 95% of my photo work to the corporate Wall Street Bankruptcy lawyers when my largest client filed for protection of spring 2006
but i am still "MR Offset Printer" who now has a color digital press to play with
kmanphoto
aka real name
Kent Whiting
ps - i still own my leaf valeo 17 and mamiya stuff ( i am after all one truly "cheap" bsatard - oops can i say that ?????)
and of course the canon stuff
-
Funny thing, after looking at the posts over the past few weeks it appears that those that are the nastiest are operating under a screen name and are conspicuous by their silence in this discussion.
Go figure.
-
PDN's forums have turn to crap because of a few who refuse to use their real names and their postings are all about being nasty and telling bad jokes in the sake of thinking they are funny and they contribute nothing. Its completely ruined the forum.
would love to see a a forum go truely private - the problem is who gets let in or not.
-
Great answer!
I would definitely stay away from any private forum. They tend to become dinosaurs and become extinct over time. I believe it is sheer stupid arrogance trying to determine who is worthy and who is not.
I do not use my real name nor email. Currently I receive over 300.000 spam emails per week and would not like to add to that. I had to whitelist specific email addresses to make sure they get into my mailbox.
When I hand out information it is in good faith and to my best knowledge when you want more background info of where it is coming from just send me a personal message and I will disclose who I am.
I do not see the advantage of knowing upfront who I am dealing with. I will recheck any information anyway even when it comes from a person that might be considered a guru by many. Someone that takes info from anyone to be the ultimate truth be it a total stranger, your neighbour, Digiback dealer or whatever, be it on a forum or in real life must have his/her head examined anyway.
I love the fact these fora are open for everyone, I would certainly be very dissapointed when certain people would be closed out.
-
Sure, that is understandable but you can always send a PM which is in my believe one of the best ways to resolve credibility issues without it escalating in pissing contests.
-
Most of the pros and cons of private / moderated, vs public / free(ish) forums have now been discussed, and some of the points on both sides have been well presented.
I prefer to keep things as they are. I'm against closed forums because their purpose here is educational, and if people can't lurk and kibbitz from time to time, then something valuable is lost.
I work on the assumption that participants here are grown-ups. This means civil discourse, no personal attacks, and a sense of humour. Occasionally people stray, but usuallY little policing is necessary.
It would be nice if people used their real names, but its a pain to administer, and in any event after a while one gets to know who people "are" by their style and merits of their comments.
In other words, I have no desire to be a cop, or to hire moderators, or to change what is to mind mind a worthwhile venue for discussion.
Maybe it's the anarchist in me, but I believe that the less control exerted over people, the better. But, when they overstep the bounds – WHACK.
Michael
-
Frankly , I find it alarming that there is a call for basically shutting down the only remaining open forum for MFDBs, or feeling the need to pressure people into revealing their names and contact details.
Last time I checked, it takes a badge to order somebody to id himself, and no anonymous person on the internet will ever get me to give up that information....
Also, I do not see any need to take such drastic messures in this forum; while there have been a few postings where the language could have been chosen more carefully, the discussion seems to me civil and mature. Plus, it seems to attract almost exclusively people who are interested in the matter, which naturally doesn't include amateurs.
Knowing the real name of contributors means nothing to me; I only know a Yaya or James Russell by their postings. For all I care , they can choose any screen name they like and be a 400lbs transvestite in Ohio; if their posts are knowledgable and helpful, I welcome the contribution.
That said, in Yair's case his known connection to Leaf enhances the value of his contributions; in James' case, he could use Bubba as a nick, and I still would only judge him by the content of his posts.
Personally, I hardly ever visit the websites of members of this forum, nor have I ever heard of anyone posting here outside of this place ; what matters to me is the quality of advice someone is able and willing to give.
Honestly, unless your name is Nadav Kander, I'm not interested in your work or your client list.
Let's face it, this place is about high-end gear, not high-end photography...
Then, there are a few hard facts to consider:
- You don't want a client googling your name come up with your postings on an internet forum.
- The email address one uses for work should be spread as little as possible through circles not directly connected to your business. Internet 101....
- RG went down the drain partly due to rigorous restrictions such as insisting on a real name used as a handle. Needless to say, one still could use any screen name , if it only sounded real.
- As stated above, the restricted, private DB fora founded in the wake of RG's demise never kicked off. Unless there is a company behind it, paying people to keep a message board running and maintained, and actively working on attracting new members, that simply isn't the way an online forum works.
- The tone and behaviour in a forum is set by the majority of members; I've seen frequent mean-spirited discussions on a forum which reqired the moderator to get not only your name, but your phone number (!) to be allowed to post.
Requesting personal information from members to control a message board is not a new concept, but I have never seen it work, imho it makes no difference whatsoever.
I think it might be more beneficial to ask members to add their field of work, equipment details and years spent as professional to their profile.
Best,
Tom
-
I finaly found you guys (James, Mark etc), it's realy nice to be back in the boat.
I was wondering where everyone from the RG forum went. It has been tough months without the daily midformat news and discussions at RG.
So it's defenitly a good thing, that people post with their real names. So you can find them again.
It's also good to show your website link. That way you get to know each others work, so you can ask specific questions about workflow etc..
So please be as visible as possible. It makes things alot easier and more interesting.
With best regards
Tim Lüdin
Switzerland
Photographer, Director
www.timage.ch
-
for those that think a Pay or private site doesn't work - one should take a look at DWF - it used to be a free site and then became a private pay site - its $99 a year and it currently has 10,060 paid members.
-
I finaly found you guys (James, Mark etc), it's realy nice to be back in the boat.
I'm not in the boat. I was simply offering some constructive suggestions on how to increase the quality of the information here, and how to possibly reduce the signal-to-noise ratio. You would be amazed how the quality of the interchange increases when you know the context of the contributors.
But the ruling does not surprise me -- the Administrator of this forum profits from having as many eyeballs on this site as possible, so just know that, and factor that into what you read here. I feel that the quality and the tone of the medium-format area is very different from the other forums here -- this is where you'll find people who truly use these complicated tools on a daily basis, rather than just speculating about them, or their design. People are making decisions that will actually affect their income and reputation, rather than just their travel pictures. It seems to me that if people are benefitting financially from this information, they also should be required to bring forth some minor amount of accountability and responsibility when they post, but it appears that this will not happen.
Adios,
MT
-
I'm not in the boat. I was simply offering some constructive suggestions on how to increase the quality of the information here, and how to possibly reduce the signal-to-noise ratio. You would be amazed how the quality of the interchange increases when you know the context of the contributors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark, once again you make that claim , but still it seems to be nothing but your personal opinion.
I have yet to find anything but proofless speculation in your reasoning that providing personal data of forum members will result in a more fruitful discussion.
Also, quite frankly, I find it a little bold to sign up to a message board merely to demand a change of rules to fit your personal preferences, even though you are not in the boat .
I assume you are not willing to contribute unless your demands are met ? Constructive ?
That said, in my very humble opinion this is exactly the way to argument which does not improve the quality of a forum, and a real name and weblink did nothing to prevent it .
Best,
Tom
-
I learned a lot through the RG forums when there almost wasn't any other source of reliable information - even if I paid for it !
Sometimes a little explanation on the forums clarified things a whole lot..
When I started shootig digital with a Kodak 760 I was totally in the dark and there was a lot of misinformation spread by vested interests as to what was capable with digital photography and what was not.
Colour management was like black magic and made my life misery for a while. If it hadn't been for the shared experiience in some of the forums there I might have got in real trouble . Even advice on how best to tell clients. printers etc politely where to get off was , and is great.
At least if information was wrong , in relation to software etc , I could try it and see and generally no harm done. If the information was correct then I treated that posters information and opinion with authority , no matter whether they were using a screen name or not.
I guess its a little different if you are about to put down a lot of money on a MF back but the principal is the same . By hearing about others experiences you can a have a prety good idea of how things should work by the time you get your grubby mits on a nice bit of MF gear. I had a similar experience moving to Canon from Nikon last year - I had literally only touched a Canon once before !
Being the owner of an Imacon back now I also belong to the flexframe forum where the information is more device specific and helpful if you actually own the gear. But not that helpful if looking for a broader range of general experience - or considering changing systems ( not that I am , I'm pretty happy with the Imacon ).
Apart from that its not half as much fun - I miss Mark and James's long posts in particular - I think some of the speculation that went on there and here now has been proved to be prophetic , sometimes even when its been apparently off the planet. Generally though , I think you need to know half the stuff that is written about to be able to respond in any meaningful way oterwise its a little like a foreign language.
-
Wow. Interesting topic. I like the idea of using some form of identification. It does keep people "honest" in some sense. For me--I judge responses by their work (not necessarily the coolness of the website), professionalism and demeanor. I'm not advanced as some of the high end pros but I won't apologize for making mistakes or asking silly questions from time to time. My "agenda" is to get better. As I think a majority of folk here are for.
I personally like this sight and have read MRs essays long before I decided to join the discussion board. And once here, I have come across some of the most intelligent discussions (even bringing into account the legendary RG days.) I for one would not benefit from a private forum and I never had a problem with Someone selling their work. After all that's what a lot of us do anyway. But just becuase MR has items for purchase--doesn't devalue his opinion or his site in my eyes.
The only thing that I would like to see here is something for other shooters of fashion/ architecture/portrait.
Other than that--I'm pleased with the overall level of civility displayed on this board and contrary to what Mark has mentioned--I feel that there is a sense of community here.
-
I am against having this forum operated as a private one. I think there is a sense of community and civility here and I think that the people here who display their full name and websites create something for others to hopefully aspire to. The gentle pressure of us all to move in that direction can then create an all inclusive and non discriminating forum.
To make people accountable for what they state is very difficult to uphold. I have never bought anything on one piece of information alone, from any forum. Before acting on anything one should research form many different angles.
When things heat up a bit like on the H3D thread, it is partly understandable that people who have invested heavily into a particular brand and feel the carpet being pulled from underneath them, thta they will react more stronger. On the other hand, heated discussions can centainly be a bit more entertaining than in threads where everyone agrees.
All by all I am very happy the way things are going here and check this forum now as regularly as I did with RG.
Marc Gerritsen
-
"the Administrator of this forum profits from having as many eyeballs on this site as possible"
If only this were true. In reality this forum is a cost center, not a profit center. The site gets some 40,000 readers a day. The forums a few hundred. A trivial percentage. And, since there are no promotional links anywhere on the forum for my videos, books, and workshops, and I never promote them here, only on the main site, your argument simply doesn't hold.
The software we use for the forum needs to be constantly maintained with updates, and patches. (Not free). The site also needs to be moderated (though minimally), and spam and porn needs to be weeded out on a daily basis. All of this takes time, effort, and the expense of some hours a week on the part of this site's technical support person.
Profit? I think not.
Michael
-
All of this takes time, effort, and the expense of some hours a week on the part of this site's technical support person.
Profit? I think not.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael.
Thank you for all your efforts in running the forum and in keeping this FREE (as opposed to ProPhoto/ExRobG) You should never be critisized for running it how you wish. Being willing to listen to suggestions is important but in the end (stating the obvious) it is entirely up to you.
This place has become a fantastic daily visit lately and I hope nothing changes to affect that.
Although it wouldn't bother me for you to insist that real names are used, I don't think it will necessarily make it a better place. If someone wishes to be anonymous, maybe they have a good reason... maybe they are just shy around the professionals that frequent here?? Who cares, as long as they are curtious to others. They may lose out on a bit of extra close relationship with others here but that also is up to them.
Thanks again.
Andrew
-
"the Administrator of this forum profits from having as many eyeballs on this site as possible"
If only this were true. In reality this forum is a cost center, not a profit center. The site gets some 40,000 readers a day. The forums a few hundred. A trivial percentage. And, since there are no promotional links anywhere on the forum for my videos, books, and workshops, and I never promote them here, only on the main site, your argument simply doesn't hold.
The software we use for the forum needs to be constantly maintained with updates, and patches. (Not free). The site also needs to be moderated (though minimally), and spam and porn needs to be weeded out on a daily basis. All of this takes time, effort, and the expense of some hours a week on the part of this site's technical support person.
Profit? I think not.
Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=80838\")
Michael,
I don't think anyone cares if you make money at this . . . in fact I respect anyone that can turn a profit from any form of photography.
I also don't think it changes the "landscape" that much if people use there real names, though personally, I'm much more comfortable talking to anyone, anywhere if I know there name.
Aliases seem strange to me and makes the conversation uncomfortable in any format.
But maybe that's just my own hard assed Texas way where a person should be upfront about who and what they are.
Still, putting all of this behind, Mark does make some good points about what is needed in a public space. Let's face it, this LL site only picked up steam in the medium format area by default when RG imploded and there are some lessons to be learned from that.
On any given day RG would have 33 registered members and 5x that viewing. Probably mostly lurkers but whose to know?
Let's be realistic, all of us adopt a different tone depending on who were are speaking to and some reference point of who the person is makes the conversation much more relevent.
Where I would love to see any public forum go is to be more interesting on the art as well as the technical side of photography and like him or not someone like Mark who puts it out there keeps it interesting and thought provoking.
IMO
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
-
"- You don't want a client googling your name come up with your postings on an internet forum."
I just googled my real name and came up with the stuff I want my clients to see.
I googled my LL screen name and found threads about the equipment troubles I've been having. Don't want a client to see that. Don't want them to find most of what I post here.
My postings are signed with a real name, but the screen name is different.
If I discovered that my real name was placed in a posting in a way that made it turn up in the google search for it, all of my posting would be heavily filtered.
-Eric
-
If someone really wants to spend the time and effort, they can become you and few will know the difference. Who would you like me to be or at least look similar enough to pass as that person? The only ones that are really hard are site admins and mods, since they normally get a spiffy special tag under their names. (and even that can sometimes be forged, especially if the forum allows HTML in the posts).
-
I'm in DWF and I find the place a bit hostile at times. Us photographers seem to have ego's that get in the way at times and that is where issues erupt. Mark ideas and suggestions are totally reasonable and so are those that promote anonymity. The thing is, we all enjoy the company of fellow MFDB users and we are all passionate about photography.
It's a lonely career choice, photography, and any chance to have intelligent banter and share experiencies with others has to be nurtured. We all owe it to each other not to make too heavy a demand and to give a little bit to help this forum settle at a new useful level. We don't want another boom and bust, or a cluster of spliner groups.
Thanks Michael for the clarification on the admin situation. And thanks for a space and your commitment to develop this resource.
Damien.
-
Mark's right. This forum benefitted from the collapse of RG. But the biggest difference and one that should be applauded is that it is lightly moderated not scoured over like in the RG days. Even at times when topics get a bit off hand there guided back on course instead of threads being locked down at will and people kicked without warning. For a while after the collapse MR actually allowed for quite a few discussion about RG's demise. People were allowed to vent (respectfully of course). This is not DPReview.
-
Frankly , I find it alarming that there is a call for basically shutting down the only remaining open forum for MFDBs, or feeling the need to pressure people into revealing their names and contact details.
Last time I checked, it takes a badge to order somebody to id himself, and no anonymous person on the internet will ever get me to give up that information....
Also, I do not see any need to take such drastic messures in this forum; while there have been a few postings where the language could have been chosen more carefully, the discussion seems to me civil and mature. Plus, it seems to attract almost exclusively people who are interested in the matter, which naturally doesn't include amateurs.
Knowing the real name of contributors means nothing to me; I only know a Yaya or James Russell by their postings. For all I care , they can choose any screen name they like and be a 400lbs transvestite in Ohio; if their posts are knowledgable and helpful, I welcome the contribution.
That said, in Yair's case his known connection to Leaf enhances the value of his contributions; in James' case, he could use Bubba as a nick, and I still would only judge him by the content of his posts.
Personally, I hardly ever visit the websites of members of this forum, nor have I ever heard of anyone posting here outside of this place ; what matters to me is the quality of advice someone is able and willing to give.
Honestly, unless your name is Nadav Kander, I'm not interested in your work or your client list.
Let's face it, this place is about high-end gear, not high-end photography...
Then, there are a few hard facts to consider:
- You don't want a client googling your name come up with your postings on an internet forum.
- The email address one uses for work should be spread as little as possible through circles not directly connected to your business. Internet 101....
- RG went down the drain partly due to rigorous restrictions such as insisting on a real name used as a handle. Needless to say, one still could use any screen name , if it only sounded real.
- As stated above, the restricted, private DB fora founded in the wake of RG's demise never kicked off. Unless there is a company behind it, paying people to keep a message board running and maintained, and actively working on attracting new members, that simply isn't the way an online forum works.
- The tone and behaviour in a forum is set by the majority of members; I've seen frequent mean-spirited discussions on a forum which reqired the moderator to get not only your name, but your phone number (!) to be allowed to post.
Requesting personal information from members to control a message board is not a new concept, but I have never seen it work, imho it makes no difference whatsoever.
I think it might be more beneficial to ask members to add their field of work, equipment details and years spent as professional to their profile.
Best,
Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
tom, i couldn't agree more with you on every single point. i stopped using my real name because of all the spam i receive and the fact that people can google one's name and see postings to forums that were made by you years earlier. thank you for making all these great comments. i couldn't have said it better.
pp
-
Funny thing, after looking at the posts over the past few weeks it appears that those that are the nastiest are operating under a screen name and are conspicuous by their silence in this discussion.
Go figure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm here, Mikey. No need to get all hissy and hot under the collar. Got a professional life to lead and can't spend time reading all threads and responding.
So, if some Proles are Widgets, and some Widgets are Scolds, then a Prole is a Scold. True or False.
-
I'm here, Mikey. No need to get all hissy and hot under the collar. Got a professional life to lead and can't spend time reading all threads and responding.
So, if some Proles are Widgets, and some Widgets are Scolds, then a Prole is a Scold. True or False.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Huh, What in the world are you talking about?
WHo are you? And who cares.
-
Today's "Times" newspaper carries a story that the UK has just had its first "web rage" murder. Admittedly it began on a religious issues forum, which may stir slightly stronger passions than Nikon versus Canon, but none the less I'm suddenly seeing big benefits in web anonymity!
-
"A hypocrite is a hypocrite is a hypocrite" Gertrude Stein.
P.S. You're not it, Gary.
-
There was a Web Rage murder in Los Angeles about a year or two ago. It all went down in some kind of earrie real time on a forum. The man who shot the other poster then traveled around LA trying to elude police, all the while posting his rants from his laptop at local coffee shops and internet cafes. Just imagine everyone on the forum telling this guy to turn himself him, and describing their version of events.... All the while this guy is telling everyone to F off and that the dead guy deserved it. It is fortunate we have much less important things to argue about here.
-
"A hypocrite is a hypocrite is a hypocrite" Gertrude Stein.
P.S. You're not it, Gary.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds like you are just being pedantic, Gertrude. And how do I know Gary Ferguson is really Gary Ferguson and not Joe Blow? And why would I care since I know neither?
-
Sounds like you are just being pedantic, Gertrude. And how do I know Gary Ferguson is really Gary Ferguson and not Joe Blow? And why would I care since I know neither?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can we lock this thread ? No constructive purpose is being served. Enough already !
Edmund
-
I am new this forum, only a few posts today. I have lurked for a while reading what folks write and learning a lot about the trials and tribulations of MFDB ownership.
I agree that forums should be open unless they are pointed toward a specific industry or group and them those in that group can decide. However, I have to agree that people should post their real names. It is way too easy to hide behind a screen name and shoot from the hip. We tend to be more responsible when our soul is exposed.
It does seem that most people here on the LL forums are cordial, professional and friendy. There also appears to be a small group of short, nasty and curt inddividuals who find it necessary to launch one liners with the intent of being either nasty or just a wise guy/gal.
Maybe not my place as I am new, but just my two cents worth.
Glad to be here.
Bill Rennaker
-
I am new this forum, only a few posts today. I have lurked for a while reading what folks write and learning a lot about the trials and tribulations of MFDB ownership.
I agree that forums should be open unless they are pointed toward a specific industry or group and them those in that group can decide. However, I have to agree that people should post their real names. It is way too easy to hide behind a screen name and shoot from the hip. We tend to be more responsible when our soul is exposed.
It does seem that most people here on the LL forums are cordial, professional and friendy. There also appears to be a small group of short, nasty and curt inddividuals who find it necessary to launch one liners with the intent of being either nasty or just a wise guy/gal.
Maybe not my place as I am new, but just my two cents worth.
Glad to be here.
Bill Rennaker
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Short, curt and nasty, launching one-liners describes me perfectly - You should become a writer !
I think after RG, LL has had its meltdown. Time for those of us who care about photography to get back behind our viewfinders, and stop arguing about who signs how.
Edmund
-
Hi Edmund,
I don't think Bill was refering to you. It is just the unfortunate context of his post being right after yours chronologically. It looks like he is on your side. It is more likely he had read the whole thread and come to his conclusion. I am sure everyone will get tired of this thread soon enough. There's no way it will self sustain. People will just get board and start posting about other things. As narikin and pixpop know, I would rather get back to discussing LCC.
I hope someone is outside in Los Angeles shooting today, the light is beautiful, and I'm stuck in a studio.
-Eric
-
No Edmund, I was not referring to you.
I agree, getting back to creativity and discussions of photography is a great idea.
However, the first post was specific about wanting to open a debate and discussion. That he did, my point is why are there a few bad apples who let the discussion deteriorate such as it has.
I saw no reason for the nasty remarks to begin in the last few posts. Everyone was pretty much debating in an acceptable manner.
Again, not my place as I only recently joined this forum. I look forward to many more worthwhile discussions.
Thanks
Bill Rennaker
-
On that note, may I suggest that this thread be dropped?
Thanks,
Michael
-
On that note, may I suggest that this thread be dropped?
Since I was the one to spark off this theological conflict, perhaps I could offer my own conclusion?
No-one responded to my request "to point me in the direction of a long term successful professional photography discussion board where solid advice and opinion based on real experience is available, and where anonymity is allowed."
Please don't answer "this one", as several of the most valued contributors have made clear their fundamental objections to anonymity.
Since Michael has made it clear that he doesn't want to change, and we are all guests in his well-appointed saloon, I'll just offer this as a matter of opinion.
An ideal forum would be one that anyone can join provided that they are willing always to sign their real name on posts, followed by either a link to a website or physical business name and location.
I know this would exclude some people, but having a website is hardly a huge cost barrier if you're considering MFDB equipment. While an ideal forum would make no judgement as to where you stand in the professional food chain, to join you would have to indicate serious business involvement in photography.
All the above is based on observing events at other pro fora.......
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey, UK
Website under construction- like Arca Swiss......
-
Since I was the one to spark off this theological conflict, perhaps I could offer my own conclusion?
Sure, it's about time .
No-one responded to my request "to point me in the direction of a long term successful professional photography discussion board where solid advice and opinion based on real experience is available, and where anonymity is allowed."
Maybe that's because pretty much every forum in the professional creative field allows anonymity ?
But we all know one place where it didn't work , which is the one you used as a reference.
Please don't answer "this one", as several of the most valued contributors have made clear their fundamental objections to anonymity.
I for one value pretty much every contributor's comments, is there some sort of hierarchy ?
An ideal forum would be one that anyone can join provided that they are willing always to sign their real name on posts, followed by either a link to a website or physical business name and location.
Don't forget to mention this is just your personal opinion....
I know this would exclude some people, but having a website is hardly a huge cost barrier if you're considering MFDB equipment. While an ideal forum would make no judgement as to where you stand in the professional food chain, to join you would have to indicate serious business involvement in photography.
I don't have a website, my agent has one. Care to post a link to your agent's website, as you don't have one yourself ?
All the above is based on observing events at other pro fora.......
Such as ? I'm a member of numerous pro message boards ( photography, CAD, retouching, DTP ); the only one I ever experienced keeling over in 10+ yrs was RG , which also happened to be the only one insisting on 'real' names .
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey, UK
Website under construction- like Arca Swiss......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you are British, named Andrew. I'm German, name is Tom.
-
Tom,
We really need to end this thread as Michael has has asked us to do.
Thanks for your list of pro fora where anonymity is allowed..
I don't have an agent but I have just spent the equivalent of 3000 euro (in our primitive British currency) on drum scanning- hence the interest in digital backs. My website is ready but I'm still playing with the material- it will help others to give the appropriate weight to my contributions here.
I'm certainly not trying to argue for a hierarchy of contributors of for invitation only fora- sorry to give that impression.
Since here in the UK hot water taps (faucets) need extra stickers above them saying "Caution Hot Water", I'll reiterate that everything I say is of course my opinion only.
I hope we can end this interesting debate on a friendly note.
Thanks for your reply.
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey UK.
-
I hope we can end this interesting debate on a friendly note.
Thanks for your reply.
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey UK.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
I apologize if I came across a little harsh, this wasn't my intention.
It's just that I'd hate to see this board go down the drain by imposing overly restrictive rules, the free contribution and access to information as offered in this forum is quite valuable for me.
Best,
Tom