Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape Photography Locations => Topic started by: Lust4Life on September 24, 2006, 08:04:28 am
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In light of the recent dramatic increase in fuel costs, and betting that it has not really ended, I would like to hear what others are using when they take off on landscape photo shoots lasting 2 to 5 weeks.
I'm currently driving a 2006 Ford F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel towing a 22' Airstream Safari. This is a great combination for comfort and campgrounds are substantially cheaper than hotels and get me closer to my subject matter. But as far as keeping the fuel cost down of a long trip it's terrible. Get about 10-11 mpg towing and 14 not towing (And yes, Ford has checked out my truck and says I'm getting the mileage that the vehicle was designed to get.).
Thus, a planned trip from Atlanta to Seattle would be about 5300 miles round trip, costing about $1,300 round trip in fuel if the average price for diesel runs about $2.90/gal.
I've been looking at the Toyota FJ Cruiser 4x4 and thinking of it towing a light camper (must have heat and A/C) but something like a small HiLo or other type of trailer with "hard sides". (I prefer the hard sided trailers for the advantage of better protection of any gear left in the trailer - Coleman type fabric sides are just too easy to get into with a pocket knife.)
Seems like the lost comfort in the much smaller trailer would be balanced with the fuel savings, thus I'll take off on more trips.
I've talked with several folks locally that own the new FJ and I'm hearing they are getting 20-22 on the highway and about 16 around the city. Figure towing a small camper it should get about 15 on the highway. Thus on a trip to Seattle there would be a fuel savings of over $406.
This is enough savings to add up to a decent amount if a chap is taking 6 to 7 trips a year of any distance.
Due to the fuel cost I'm being forced to re-think my current approach. So, some questions to resolve:
1. Towing a trailer or using hotels, etc.
2. If towing, what trailers have worked well for diverse climates - pop up; Airstream style; truck campers; etc.
3. If towing, what tow vehicle and fuel mpg are you getting? Burn regular fuel?
4. Lenght of trip you usually take?
5. Vehicle - 2 wheel drive or have you found it necessary to pay the premium for four wheel drive.
6. Recommeded light weight campers that you have found to meet your needs.
In short, I like to hear what others are doing to control our costs when we take off on 2-5 week USA landscape adventures.
I've added an Excel spreadsheet that I use to plan trips and project expenses - let me know if you have any improvement to suggest.
Thanks,
Jack
http://www.shadowsdancing.com (http://www.shadowsdancing.com)
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Let me see, you are thinking about getting a Toyota FJ Cruiser and a smaller camper and you saving over $406 on your trip to Seattle. I ask, where is the saving? It does cost money to buy a Toyota FJ and a smaller camper. Are you just thinking about saving money on Gas only and not the cost ot the Toyota FJ and smaller camper? Even if you trade in your Ford and Airstream, you will still cost money on the trade. I think it is better just to keep the Ford combination and use trade money for gas, unless it is a equal trade and it does not cost you anything.
In light of the recent dramatic increase in fuel costs, and betting that it has not really ended, I would like to hear what others are using when they take off on landscape photo shoots lasting 2 to 5 weeks.
I'm currently driving a 2006 Ford F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel towing a 22' Airstream Safari. This is a great combination for comfort and campgrounds are substantially cheaper than hotels and get me closer to my subject matter. But as far as keeping the fuel cost down of a long trip it's terrible. Get about 10-11 mpg towing and 14 not towing (And yes, Ford has checked out my truck and says I'm getting the mileage that the vehicle was designed to get.).
Thus, a planned trip from Atlanta to Seattle would be about 5300 miles round trip, costing about $1,300 round trip in fuel if the average price for diesel runs about $2.90/gal.
I've been looking at the Toyota FJ Cruiser 4x4 and thinking of it towing a light camper (must have heat and A/C) but something like a small HiLo or other type of trailer with "hard sides". (I prefer the hard sided trailers for the advantage of better protection of any gear left in the trailer - Coleman type fabric sides are just too easy to get into with a pocket knife.)
Seems like the lost comfort in the much smaller trailer would be balanced with the fuel savings, thus I'll take off on more trips.
I've talked with several folks locally that own the new FJ and I'm hearing they are getting 20-22 on the highway and about 16 around the city. Figure towing a small camper it should get about 15 on the highway. Thus on a trip to Seattle there would be a fuel savings of over $406.
This is enough savings to add up to a decent amount if a chap is taking 6 to 7 trips a year of any distance.
Due to the fuel cost I'm being forced to re-think my current approach. So, some questions to resolve:
1. Towing a trailer or using hotels, etc.
2. If towing, what trailers have worked well for diverse climates - pop up; Airstream style; truck campers; etc.
3. If towing, what tow vehicle and fuel mpg are you getting? Burn regular fuel?
4. Lenght of trip you usually take?
5. Vehicle - 2 wheel drive or have you found it necessary to pay the premium for four wheel drive.
6. Recommeded light weight campers that you have found to meet your needs.
In short, I like to hear what others are doing to control our costs when we take off on 2-5 week USA landscape adventures.
I've added an Excel spreadsheet that I use to plan trips and project expenses - let me know if you have any improvement to suggest.
Thanks,
Jack
http://www.shadowsdancing.com (http://www.shadowsdancing.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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This would be my solution:
http://www.sportsmobile.com/2_rb-50-sr.html (http://www.sportsmobile.com/2_rb-50-sr.html)
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You Americans are funny!
Here in the UK we are paying £0.95 per liter and no sign whatsoever of it going down.
Given how legistlation is going through at present the govenment driven by even more greed in the name of the enviroment is thinking of adjusting tax so that 4X4's will have to pay approximately £1000 of road tax a year compared to £200 at present.
Enjoy it while you can and shoot enviromentalists on sight!
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It is my understanding the the Toyota FJ requires premium gasoline. Have you compared the cost differetial between diesel and premium?
Also, what would be the trade-in value of both the Ford and Airstream vs the new acquisiton costs for the proposed combination?
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Lester,
The example of the savings on the trip to Seattle is just one of the 6 long trips I have planned for the coming year (2-4 weeks each). Thus, the cumulative savings over a year is what I'm considering, not a single trip.
Additionally I do several short 4 day weekend trips when ever I can - as in this coming weekend I'm headed to drive/shoot the route from Ashville, NC to Knoxville, TN, camping in route.
Additionally, frequently I will get up early in the morning and drive into the north GA mountains and drive for hours down National Forest and state gravel roads searching out sites to photograph. Thus the need for 4x4 - some of these roads are really rough. I've been getting down them with the F-250 but it's just tight in so many places, and the cost of fuel is very high. Took the truck into Ford yesterday to have the check it out; 16.9 actual on the highway with no load and 13 at best in the city per their computer used on the truck in actual driving conditions. I'd like better. Put the Airstream behind it and the impact on the mileage is poor at best.
If I was using it as a Snow Birder and driving to FL and staying in one place for the winter I'd not seek better. Well, that's not what I'm doing.
My point of this thread was to learn what others who take off for 3-5 week trips several times a year are doing to address the escalation cost of these trips.
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Tsnajik - your suggestion is appreciated. I have looked at these and find I have not been able to fit in the drivers for for any of the 4 or 5 models I've looked at - I'm about 6' 5" - leg room just not made for me. I'll keep looking. I've also been trying to locate someone who actually has one to see what their mileage has been.
Big problem with these type of vehicle is their bulk - poor on gravel forest roads and when I head to Euray, CO and drive the trails there. FJ with a small camper (ALiner) would be far better and far less costly.
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Jake,
Unfortunately you are right on the "suggested Premium". But I have spoken to three dealership service managers and four owners of the FJ. All report that what is being used is the middle grade of fuel rather than the premium with no problems. Right now in my area of Atlanta (far north side) the diesel is running 2.70/gal and mid grade gas is running 2.23/gal.
But what is concerning me is that of the four owners I've spoken to their mileage on the highway is quite varied - one reported 18 while others are reporting 20-21. Probably differrent driving styles.
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Appreciate comments and looking for more actual solutions that others in like circumstances are using.
Jack
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I've done the arithmetic, too, and most of the cost of producing my art isn't the paper & ink, the mats & frames, or even the bodies & lenses; it's the travel cost. I loathe air travel due to the "security" hassles, so I've also chosen ground transportation. My preferred solution has been hotels and a touring motorcycle getting 40 to 50 miles per (US) gallon, with a range of 280 to 350 miles:
Honda ST1300 (http://beautiful-photo.com/Big_Bend/IMG_3092-Big_Bend-ST1300.jpg)
If I need more "stuff", I can add a trailer for very little extra fuel cost:
Uni-Go trailer (http://www.uni-go.com)
The vehicle cost reduces expenses quite a lot, too: $15k for the bike plus accessories comes to 15 cents per mile over 100k miles. Total maintenance, including tires, comes to 6 cents per mile, and fuel is 8 cents or less per mile depending on price (about 5 cents right now). At 25 to 30 cents per mile total operating cost I can rent a lot of hotel rooms without blowing my budget.
My guess is your total operating cost is around 60 to 80 cents per mile.
Some have looked at this in the past and then asked, "But how far can you possibly ride a motorcycle in a day?" Typical for me when using interstates is 1,000 to 1,200 miles per day maximum, though I've stretched that beyond 1,500 in a pinch with good planning. That will get me darn near anywhere in North America in three days, most places in two.
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Jack, I will be interested to learn what solution you finally settle on. Obviously, there are compromises to be made with every potential solution.
The FJ is a nice looking vehicle. One possible reason for the disparity in reported MPG is that the mileage will vary depending on whether you buy a 2WD or 4WD--Toyota offers both, with 2WD getting significantly better mileage.
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Jack:
I assume you looked at the 4x4 vehicles at http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html (http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html)
They would certainly take you to most places. My neighbor has a Dodge Strider (diesel) modified by Winnebago : http://www.winnebagoind.com/products/winnebago/view/ (http://www.winnebagoind.com/products/winnebago/view/)
He reports 20-22 mpg and he is also 6'5" and has no difficulty. If you want to tow a trailer it will cost you in gas, there is no solution to that. I'm cheap, I drive a Subaru (or Nissan Pathfinder if required) and use a tent.
Tom
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Here is what I do. I use public transportation. There is not a wilderness area in the country I can't get to using a train or a bus.
Since most of my camp sites are miles from any road, I use a tent. I carry that on my back with my other supplies. After setting up camp, I take day trips from that location to photograph. Food and water is not an issue as I can get them from the mountain huts at the camp sites. And since I don't have to return to a particular vehicle, I am able to cross a mountain range and leave from the other side.
If I had to get a vehicle, I would get something like a Toyota Carolla. That could transport me, my wife, and my gear very easily AND get reasonable mileage. It can also navigate any road I would use. I still would have to hike to a camp ground, but my tent would fit in the car.
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Call it pragmatism, but my "solution" is to stay longer at each destination, thereby cutting costs per day and limiting the ground I try to cover on a trip. On the measurable side, more time in any location usually results in much better photos than whirlwind tours. We also are downsizing what we tow, limiting our search now to trailers less than 20'.
For quick trips we rely on lightweight vehicles and tent camping to help cut costs.
In either case, we minimize driving while on location, both by staying as close as possible to featured areas and walking/biking/public transport where available and suitable.
Factor in savings on hotels, restaurant meals, and fuel prices for towing/driving and RV still aren't bad at all, especially when minimizing driving as I describe. If fuel costs are up a buck and my mileage is cut in half, we're still less than an extra $50 on most driving days. That's pretty easy to recover via savings on meals and room, compared to driving a tiny fuel saver.
Yeah sure, you can camp from a small rig, but we still manage to find excuses to stay in hotels and eat out every few days, if for no other reason than to avoid cooking, dishwashing and dining outdoors in the dark and to slip in a hot shower now and then.
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I travel a lot in a 4x4. I've looked at the FJ Cruiser and it's basically the Toyota version of the Hummer -- it looks neat, but it's a waste of time. It's based on the 4Runner, and you won't get much better mileage than the 4Runner -- the MSN website says the FJ gets 16-19 (city/highway) and that's a dream. I have the Lexus version of the 4Runner (the GX 470) and I get about 15mpg all-around. That's what I would expect you to get from the FJ. Consumer Reports says that the FJ sightlines are restricted front and back, and it has very small windows. Also, it's recommended that you use only premium fuel. It's also smaller inside that the standard 4Runner.
In my research on really practical vehicles for this kind of thing, the vehicles that always come out on top are the Toyota, Mazda and Dodge mini-vans and the Subarus; with the vans you can get everything inside; with the Subarus, you can pull a small trailer. Of course, some people refuse on aesthetic grounds to drive a minivan, so your mileage may vary...
The problem with full-sized vans is that you are actually just buying another pick-up, and you get the same bad mileage. If you buy a long wheel-base Dodge mini-van, and are willing to do a certain amount of work (but not too much, really -- you can get everything you need at Home Depot) you can build racks inside that carry a large amount of equipment, and still leave space in the middle for a custom futon (which most many futon shops can make for you.) Along with a camping stove and either a 12-volt plug-in icebox (available at many big outdoor sports store), you can get quite comfortable overnight in the van. You can also get inverters from any car place to run computers, recharge batteries, etc. (The 4Runner versions mostly come with built-in AC power.) I've never measured them exactly, but I go muskie fishing with a friend who drives a Dodge minivan, and you can lay 8-foot muskie rods flat on the floor, with room left over; so sleeping flat is not a problem, if you can find a flat place to park. We use his van (rather than my 4x4) for fishing because it has so much more space; and we've never really been in danger of being stuck, even when we've gone on some pretty bad backwoods tracks. He pulls a boat trailer with it, with a small boat. However, there are places I would go with the GX470 that would be impossible with a van, because of the center road clearance.
Those huge custom sport van conversions I would expect to get ~ 10 miles per gallon, and they can cost upwards of $60,000.
Big pickups with travel trailers never make financial sense, although I understand that some people like the travel-trailer culture. But a travel trailer will cost you tens of thousands, and you can still find motels where you can stay overnight for $50. That's 200 nights for $10,000, and you only have to come up with $50 at a time...I understand that sometimes it's best to stay overnight at a spot so you can get the camera out at first light, but for those occasions, bagging out in the back of the van would work fine. I actually sleep on the ground, and carry a tent, air mattress and sleeping bag with me. No problem.
JC
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For location work as a landscape photographer, IMHO nothing beats a van. Mini or maxi, it's the most cost-effective, photo-effective combination of transportation and accommodation. I can't begin to list the incredible locations I *awakened at*, all because I choose to travel in a 1988 Astro. Last time I looked - 320,000 kms, $0.10 per km at about $.90 per liter fuel cost.
Motels just don't cut it. They're too far from the pictures.
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If all wheel or 4 wheel drive is desirable, then consider the Chrysler brand of MiniVans. I believe the Dodge and Chrysler MiniVans can still be ordered with 4 wheel drive. No you don't get the ground clearance of a SUV but you still have the pulling power and the security of 4 wheel drive.
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Once upon a time, I pulled out the calculator to "run the numbers" on a Ford F250 hauling around a small cab-over camper. The beauty was that one could easily camp on location and eliminate night after night of chasing reservations and cheap motels (read Motel 6) often far from the pictures. The downside was the MPG costs. A lot of my friends now drive smaller 4X4 pickups (better MPG) with larger shells and simply hone their system to camp on location. Michael Lewis, a Colorado photographer, has a raised platform in his Toyota truck bed that contains slide out cabinets so he can always keep his camping gear and equipment stored and ready to go. His truck gets good mileage and he can go anywhere. Personally, I find doing the same thing out of my Volvo XC with roof rack makes sense. I can get to most photo sites and the roof rack is organized to hold my camping gear, food and clothes. I like to camp a few nights then decompress and reorganize in a motel. This system keeps me going for an easy week or two and is economical. Too bad the old Syncro VW campers are so rare. I had one years ago and let it go--mistake. There was nothing like that vehicle for comfort and easy setup. BTW, when I say "camp" I mean minimal--bivy sack, sleeping bag, camp chair, simple alcohol stove, one pot and utensil. I can pull up to a site, set up camp, eat and be asleep in half and hour. I typically wake well before dawn, hike, shoot, hike back when the light is gone, then head for breakfast at some small-town diner. Sublime!
Larry C. Price
www.pricephotograpy.com
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For location work as a landscape photographer, IMHO nothing beats a van. <snip>:P
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78150\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If all wheel or 4 wheel drive is desirable, then consider the Chrysler brand of MiniVans. I believe the Dodge and Chrysler MiniVans can still be ordered with 4 wheel drive. No you don't get the ground clearance of a SUV but you still have the pulling power and the security of 4 wheel drive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Both Chrysler and Toyota minivans are available with 4-wheel (all-wheel) drive. They don't have much less space than a full-sized van, but they're built on lighter frames, usually the manufacturer's mid-sized car frame (rather than a truck frame.) The Chrysler claims 27mpg on the highway, although I would expect 22-23 would be closer to right. If I were traveling alone, and way into the out-back, I would be reluctant to take a big 4-wheel drive anywhere I couldn't go easily with a minivan. The fact is, that'd be really rough country, and it's not that hard to get even a truck stuck...When we can't get somewhere in a minivan, I take that as God's way of telling me either to walk, or to turn around. 8-)
Coming into town today I saw a guy in a minivan pulling a boat with a 40-horse engine on the back -- probably a 17-footer...
JC
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Just to educate you all about the difference between 4wd and Awd may change your mind.
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html (http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html)
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There is not a wilderness area in the country I can't get to using a train or a bus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Really? I'm not sure that I've been to a winderness area accessible by public transport. I tend to hitch rides if I'm really desperate.
On to the OP: I personally am very comfortable in a tent and comfortable sleeping bag. Plus it has the flexiblility of staying places that don't have trailer sites or even parking, (usually these are the best places for photos too).
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Jack,
How about reversing it - get a motor home and pull a jeep or similar vehicle. A recent issue of US News and World Report had an article on motor homes. And there are a number of books on how to buy a used motor home.
You can get used motor homes for a fraction of their new cost. A short wheel base 4x4 is much better for rough track driving. Again, you can get a used one. You might even want to add an ATV or trail bike or mountain bike to extend your off road reach.
On the americanrvrentals.com site, they seem to have a lot of good info.
"I recently saw a toy trailer with two dirt bikes, two Personal Water Crafts, a dune buggy (toad) and an Ultra-Lite Aircraft on board."
nigel
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<snip> Too bad the old Syncro VW campers are so rare. I had one years ago and let it go--mistake. There was nothing like that vehicle for comfort and easy setup. I typically wake well before dawn, hike, shoot, hike back when the light is gone, then head for breakfast at some small-town diner. Sublime!
Larry C. Price
www.pricephotograpy.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sublime is exactly the right word. Your tactics match mine exactly.
The Asstro has served me well. I can't afford a Dodge Sprinter (the PERFECT solution) so until then, it has to be this:
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Sublime is exactly the right word. Your tactics match mine exactly.
The Astro has served me well. I can't afford a Dodge Sprinter (the PERFECT solution) <snip>:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Sprinter looks good until you decide you want to park it somewhere with a roof. Can't get into most public parking garages or even home garages, which makes it tough if you live anywhere in snow country. They are also not the most stable in windy country; I came up behind one on I-94 a couple of weeks ago with a fairly gusty SE wind, and the guy was all over the place.
JC
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The guys at Go Westy always have restored Westfalias and sometimes Syncros for sale, of course at a price.
http://www.gowesty.com/forsale/saleindex.html (http://www.gowesty.com/forsale/saleindex.html)
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To all, some good suggestions and I appreciate them.
Here is where I'm at:
Given: Long trips - 3-8 weeks at a time, all types of weather conditions including snow.
Agree with drive to an area and stay rather than quick hits where you never find any of the "magic" spots. It is far more productive to good images that you would miss if just "passing through".
Run down a LOT of Forest Service gravel roads, some just dirt/mud and in very rough condition. Up in CO, like Engineer Pass and that type of terrain
At 60, I'd prefer to drive as far as I can to the site (gravel/dirt road) verse hike a long way toting my 4x5 on my back. Yes, I'll hike when I must but prefer to get as close to the destination as possible on rolling wheels! (Never drive off of a given path across a beautiful meadow!)
When home, I love to fish and any vehicle must be able to tow my Lund fishing boat - about 3,000 pounds loaded.
Solutions that won't work for me:
1. VW Van - I've had two of these in the past - did a fine job until I got into rough terrane. Plus you must stow everything before you go from a drive and then at the end of the day pull it all out again. Also, they are not very mechanically sound! The later model Eurovans are one of the very few vehicles Consumer Reports put on their Avoid List. Plus it won't tow my Lund up any of the N. GA fishing ramps - steep!
2. Mini-Van - ditto on the rought roads. Idea of being stuck in the wilderness out of cell range is not real appealing to me. The ground clearance is not what I need either.
What I seem to be concluding:
1. Need 4x4 to go down the trails I'm currently taking my F-250 4x4. Too many times I've put the F-250 into 4x4 mode to get out of a nasty trail. Unfortunately, there are many spots that I had to quite exploring because the truck was just too big to get by rocks or trees, etc. Thus, a smaller 4x4 but yet it must be big enough inside to carry my near 6'5" body! And yes, I'll take a hit on selling the F-250 but that's just what I'll have to deal with.
The above has cut my choices down to the Nissan Xterra or Pathfinder and the Toyota FJ. In researching the Nissan's on safety and reliability - they've failed my standards. Drove the Honda Pilot and did not fit comfortably in it.
I've had several Jeeps in the past and found them not as reliable as I want and they get poor mileage.
FJ Crusier will tow 5,000 pounds, so no problem on pulling my "fish stalker"- note I said stalker rather than catcher!
On the FJ, I've stopped several owners and spoken to them about their rigs. What I'm hearing is that in the 4x4 version folks are getting 17 around town and 20+ on the highway ONCE the rig hits 5,000+ miles. Most folks are burning mid grade or regular gas and claim nil for difference in MPG. I've spoken with two Toyota service managers and they have echoed the same claiming the 91 octane is a guideline that most folks ignor with no consequences.
Ok, I'll take the owners and managers at their word.
I've looked at the Dodge/MB Sprinter - must admit it's very seductive. I have a friend who owns one and loves it. However he said that for what I'm doing he would not recommend it. On pondering his points, I'll agree.
Thus, I seem to be concluding that an FJ with two methods of location lodging will work: FJ with Tent and campstove for the mild seasons is the ultimate and most economical solution. However, I had health issue as a kid and my lungs do not take well to cold damp nights! This is a serious health issue for me and has ruined prior trips when I was primative camping and had to head home to the doctor and antibiotics.
Thus, in any type of cold weather, I'm opting for a small pull behind trailer that is very light weight. At this point I'm drawn to the Chalet with the Off Road Package and the ALiner units with the Expedition Package. This would allow me to park the Chalet at the camp site and take off in the FJ to explore, not having to put anything away in the camper! Just come back at night exhausted and fall into the unmade bed!
Conclusion: FJ with Chalet rig (weight about 1300 pounds). Has AC/heat pump and porta potty for the 4AM urges that being 60 brings.
I can find fault with every solution I've heard or pondered on my own.
Unfortunately, like much in life it's an issue of compromise rather than ideal solution.
This is my thinking at the moment, but I reserve the right to alter my direction without notice or reason!
Best,
Jack
Update from above post:
Yesterday afternoon after posting the above, I talked my wife into joining me to visit dealers and try to come to a conclusion on this issue. Here is what I found:
Dodge Sprinter - looks great; drove it on the local roads - ok; drove it on the highway - hated it! Wind and any passing vehicle of size has an un-nerving feeling on the steering. This was on a calm day as far as the weather went - I can only imagine trying to keep it on the road in the SW when the wind kicks up.
Rejected!
ALiner camper - poorly made and over priced for what you get. Other than that it would do the job if you were not going into cold climates to photograph. No insulation to speak of in reality.
Chalet camper - ditto.
I way very disappointed by both of these units - far cheaper than I expected them to be in quality.
TrailManor camper - great room inside; heavy for towing; expensive!; they way the seams are encased is just with vinly - anyone of small statue could push the vinly aside and gain entry to your unit and thus any stowed photo gear!
Truck Camper - Lance.
Excellent looking - very nicely finished and laid out. Completely self contained and some have generators. Expensive but I found later substantial saving from some internet dealers.
Need to give this venue a closer look.
Anyone have one who can report on the impact of having one of these mammoths on the back of your truck as it relates to driving and MPG??
Money is still in the bank - no final decision yet.
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The truck camper will have similar effects on mileage as a trailer of the same weight. My problem with them is the need to clean up and organize every time you want to drive the truck.
UNLESS....................
Friends found solutions, and they really work. Make sure the model you select has 4 jack stands. Our friend found a bolt that fit into the inset for the jack handle or crank, then clamped that into a rechargeable drill. He can raise and lower the camper effortlessly in seconds. That frees your truck up for casual use without the camper, whether overnight or for days on end.
Another interesting inovation: He went to a boat shop and had snaps installed around the edges of the cab-over portion, with corresponding snaps in a piece of custom canvas. With the camper off the truck he can enclose any or all of that space for a small, windproof "privacy" room. They lay a piece of IO carpet on the ground beneath and frequently use it for a sun or rain shelter, snapping into place all or part of the canvas as a wind block. Also a great place for stowing things out of sight and out of the way when the camper is off the truck.
Final convenience- They got one of the outdoor shower "tents" from Cabelas (as I recall). When needed they erect this close to the camper and run hoses from the external hot/cold water ports for a convenient outdoor shower. Very, very handy!
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I have some ideas on this topic that might be of interest. Our current rig is a Chevy 1 ton diesel, pulling a 28 ft fifth wheel. Our most recent trip in it was several weeks up through Idaho into BC and back down the coast to home (central California.) As you might expect, fuel was costly - I'll post the amount if anyone is really interested in details. On the other hand, we're just back from an extended trip to the midwest where we flew to Chicago, drove a rental car around, and stayed some in motels. The cheapest was a Super 8 in a small town in Michigan, and it was $76 for the night - I suspect that those $50 rooms are going to be hard to find in any area that is close to the great pictures.
My frustration with our rig isn't the cost of fuel as much as the idea that the campgrounds I am comfortable taking the 28 ft trailer into are still a long way from the places where I'd like to be at dawn. My solution was to purchase a truck camper that pop's up. i.e. the roof is only six inches above the cab when driving, and extends with canvas sides to full height when parked. The particular model I bought is made by Four Wheel Campers (another manufacturer I considered is Hallmark,) and only weighs about 1200 lbs, with air conditioner, cassette toilet, furnace, refridgerator, etc. Most recent test was 19 mpg on the highway with the truck empty, 16.5 with the camper on the back, and I regularly get 10.5 towing the fifth wheel. Disadvantage compared to the Lance, - you have to pop the roof up, and it's considerably more spartan. Advantage - much lighter and less top heavy for better road manners and mileage. In the interest of full disclosure, we haven't camped in this rig yet, so I'll have to file a follow-on about things like comfort and convenience, and what my wife really thinks - she doesn't like "camping" at all, but is very comfortable "RVing." My long term dream would be to trade the fifth wheel for a pull-behind trailer, take both rigs on the 6 to 8 week trips, and use the trailer as a base camp in some area, with the pop-up for weekends and "being there at dawn."
Jack, - You started this thread with the justification that the high cost of fuel was driving you to consider smaller, lighter, less comfortable rigs in order to save money. Unspoken, but relatively obvious, is a desire on your part for a new rig. I fully support the idea of new rigs (read between the lines of my previous paragraph,) but don't deceive yourself about the cost effectiveness of your solution. I'd love to own a hybrid car, but the $6000 premium over the identical model with a gas engine means I have to drive it 200,000 to 300,000 miles in order to justify it economically.
For Dobson, who couldn't understand how to get to good areas by bus or train, you live in Montana, Anon E Mouse is in Japan!
JMHO,
Alan
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Alan,
Interesting comments.
I have found your experience with the cost of hotels to be correct. We recently went to Asheville, NC and towed the Lund to do some fishing in the area. Spent two nights in one of the more reasonable hotels in the area and the cost by time you put in all of the taxes was over $90/night. Campground by the hotel was $30.
First, no to the idea of just wanting a change in gear - I sincerely like the Airstream trailer - great construction and so comfortable! Unfortunately the cost of moving it has put me in a mindset that I've skipped a few long trips that I should have taken.
FYI - my 2006 F-250 diesel, 4x4 crew cab, short bed got at best 16.8MPG on flat highway. 9.4MPG to 11MPG towing either my 2006 22' Airstream Safari or my Lund Sport Angler 18.5' boat on alum. trailer. Every day driving around the Atlanta area gave 12.6MPG.
Took it to Ford and they said the truck was in spec on MPG. Doubt that I had a lemon. I previously had a 2005 Chevy 2500 4x4 diesel and it was worse.
That started the process of pondering the best method of dealing with my passion to be "out there".
Last Saturday morning I sold my F-250 and put the Airstream up for sale. Immediately on selling the truck I purchased a new Toyota FJ Cruiser 4x4. Took it into the GA mountains and worked it hard this past Sunday. Miles of Forestry Service "roads" and up and down two lane mountain paved road. Did 70-80 MPH getting to Blue Ridge, GA. Filled up the first tank full on my return and averaged 20.02MPG on Mid-Grade - I had topped off the tank myself before we left to remove any element of error.
I've run the truck down the same roads (Swinging Bridge hiking trail near Blue Ridge, GA) and averaged in the area of 12MPG diesel. Diesel in my part of the world is currently selling for at least 30 cents a gallon more than midgrade gas.
I'm now pondering the following:
Given - the FJ can take me anywhere I want to go and safely - top rating in crash test and side airbags.
Fuel usage/cost is substantially less than the F-250 diesel!
Due to past health issues, I am very prone to lung/sinus infections - thus the idea of sleeping in a cold damp tent is out of the question.
Solutions currently in the running:
ALiner or Chalet trailer -
Pros: Very light weight for towing, about 1200# empty; 30 second setup; Cost is "reasonable" compared to an Airstream. Has A/C, heater, range, portable toilet.
Cons: It's cheap in it's construction compared to an Airstream!
Fleetwood Evolution E-2 -
Pros: Very roomy compared to the ALiner. Has a deck on the front to carry a 4 wheeler or better yet a small trail motorcycle with camera container on rear. Full A/C, heater, etc.
Cons: Dry weight is about 2545# - double that of the ALiner. This should have a measurable impact on the MPG from the FJ Cruiser (tow rating limit on the FJ is 5,000#)
T@B Teardrop trailer:
Pros: really cool looking, but that won't help the quality of my negatives!
Cons: Seems to have a very negative impact on the fuel economy of the tow vehicle. I've been reading the posts on the Yahoo T@B site and they take a big hit.
Also, I'm just short of 6' 5" and the T@B interior height is 5' 10" - so for Cool you stoop!
Summary:
Going over today to inspect a Fleetwood Evolution E-2. This will help me decide what direction I'm going.
Frankly, the ideal in my mind is the FJ Cruiser with a tent, camp stove, etc. in the back of the FJ. That is what I used to do when I was younger and had a Jeep CJ Golden Eagle.
However, I've not been able to find an insulated tent that offers any room and could keep me from having to deal with the serious infections I get if I sleep in a cold damp environment. I had hoped to put a cat heater in an insulated tent and go that route.
(Fact of note: Would have a hard time getting my wife to find pleasure in the tent idea at this point in our life. She'd do it BUT.........)
Jack
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Jack,
How heavy is the Airstream? Will the FJ Cruiser tow it? Might be interesting to find out what the mpg is if it can.
alan
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Jack,
How heavy is the Airstream? Will the FJ Cruiser tow it? Might be interesting to find out what the mpg is if it can.
alan
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Alan,
The Airstream weight is about 4,200# empty. Put gear in it and it's just too close to the tow limit of the Toyota FJ Cruiser, which is 5,000#. Plus, I just don't need all of that room and luxury.
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Alan,
The Airstream weight is about 4,200# empty. Put gear in it and it's just too close to the tow limit of the Toyota FJ Cruiser, which is 5,000#. Plus, I just don't need all of that room and luxury.
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Have you considered the VW Tourag? It has a towing capacity of ~7,000 #s and they are bringing back the V10 diesel which will provide more umph with better mileage than the V8.
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Thanks to all for you comments. Here is an update on my post with my final decision.
I bought a Toyota FJ Cruiser - so far with less than 1000 miles on it I've averaged 19.8MPG on mid grade fuel in every day driving. I drive with a light foot and don't hot rod it. Took out the Toyota 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty - done so I just don't have to worry about it needing an expensive repair because I was using it for what it's intended to be used for - off road/gravel & mud roads.
Yesterday I tested it towing my fishing boat and it tows my Lund fishing boat with ease. Oddly got better fuel economy than the 2006 Ford F-250 4x4 diesel did! And it's burning mid grade rather than the 40 cent a gallon more for diesel we are paying for in GA.
I have plenty of room in it and it is great off road and on gravel/mud Forest Service roads. Really pleased with the FJ so far.
On the issue of sleeping quarters, there is NO totally right solution. As with life, the ability to compromise and accept that fact is critical.
Thus, I just purchased a Fleetwood Evolution E1 pop up trailer.
Decision was based on weight - about 2,200# empty, towability, comfort features and able to stand up in it, ability to dry camp, ability to haul down forest service road and take a beating, A/C and furnace, refrig, price, etc.
In the next couple of weekends I'll do a short test camp in the local area to be sure all is working properly. Then heading to Great Smokies National Park for my first real trip. Then down to the GA coast to shoot some marsh scenes.
Again, thanks to all for your comments.
Jack
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Hi Jack,
Please update when you get back from your trip, I'm contemplating a similar solution to yours.
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I have had the best experience using a one ton 4x4 crew cap pickup with a cabover camper. The extended versions have a small combination head/shower. If I was getting a new one I would get a diesel version and try to use biodiesel fuel whenever possible.
The rear of the crew cab is where I put everything for quick access that I expect to use during the day. I stow excess baggage and gear in the cab-over section of the camper during the day and at night this is the sleeping space.
With a 5 gal propane tank I have heated the camper and cooked food for two for several weeks at a time in Alaska in the winters. The small refer helps with food options.
The problem I have had with vans is the lack of storage space and very narrow aisles. The lack of ground clearance also is a limitation to accessing many areas, and with a 4x4 I can get out of most spots without worrying about needing a tow truck.
There are a number of companies that provide rentals of very low mileage units as they change out their fleets every year so all their vehicles are always under factory warranties. Cheaper to fly to Alaska or Colorado and rent a vehicle for several weeks, especially during the low seasons, than to drive there and also lose precious time in transit. There are disounted rates for second and third weeks as the companies don't have to do but a single cleanup of the rig. These are also good companies to buy a vehicle (RV or 4x4 truck/camper with a about 10K miles at a reasonable price.
Gas mileage is not bad if you are willing to drive at 65mph. The wind resistance of any car goes up with the square of the speed so going 50% faster requires twice the horsepower which is reflected in the vehicle's gas consumption.
If I wanted to do so it would be easy to add a platform to the top of the camper and use it for a camera and tripod platform ala Ansel Adam's famous Cadillac.
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Sublime is exactly the right word. Your tactics match mine exactly.
The Asstro has served me well. I can't afford a Dodge Sprinter (the PERFECT solution) so until then, it has to be this:
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Second happiest day of my life was the day I got my 1982 VW camper. You can guess the happiest day.
I now have a 2002 VW Winnebago camper. It is great. Enough power to go down the road and water cooled. Only problem is I have to pack up to go anywhere in the van.
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Anyone know of a place in Las Vegas where I can rent a 4x4 truck with camper?
All of the places I have found only rent RVs.
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(the PERFECT solution) so until then, it has to be this:
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I'd agree with that. You can set it up with a bed in the back as well as a fridge etc. They're also incredibly good for shooting from, in places such as game reserves as you can shoot from any side quite easily. If you get the right model, you can even open the front windows.
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Second happiest day of my life was the day I got my 1982 VW camper. You can guess the happiest day.
Uh oh. Trubbles with the bus? I must admit, I worry about the idea of visiting some of the more remote spots on the continent in a 30 year old vehicle, even if it is relatively low mileage. (50K mi)
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This is a fun, thoughtful and very relevant discussion. I enjoyed the guy from Montana who was puzzled over how anonymous got to "every wilderness area in the country" on public transportation. Maybe he didn't see the signature -- the country was Japan.
Two years ago I found my own solution to the same problem. Of course, I think it's best, but I don't write to convince anyone. I just want to inform you about my compact travel trailer of choice, which you'll never see on any RV lot. It's the same length as my small SUV, but can sleep up to four. It's warm, convenient, economical and cool-looking, too. It's relatively thief- and bear-proof, virtually indestructable, and cost me less than a new pro DSLR body.
It's a Scamp, a fiberglass "egg"shaped trailer. Much like your Airstream Bambi, except half the weight and price. I pull it over the Colorado Rockies (and more importantly, I control it on the downhills) with a Subaru Forester. That's good for 18 mpg towing at 60-70 mph on Interstates, and the car gets 25+ mpg unhitched. And it tows like a dream, with nary a white-knuckled moment in over 5000 miles. For me, that's great all-round performance. It's been a marriage-saver; my wife wants to camp again. We get out more and enjoy it better.
Two manufacturers are making these still: Scamp in Minn., and Casita in Texas. They're available in 13-foot lengths (10 feet long insidel) and 16-footers, like mine. Empty and unoptioned, they tend to weigh 100 lbs per foot, plus cargo and options. Mine has a propane cooktop, a 12v system and AC hookups & outlets, two bunk and a dinette that converts to a full-sized bed. You can add bathrooms, furnaces, water heaters, refrigerators and air conditioners as you wish, or leave it lightweight, spacious and simple, like mine. I paid $2,500 for my 1985 model. All it needed was replacement tires and a $20 hand water pump, but I added a big exhaust fan and a few extras.
In this category, 98% of campers choose pop-up tent trailers. I guess they do have some advantages. Your pop-up will probably be roomier, when set up, because the beds are outside the chassis. You can still see out your rear window when driving, can't you? And it must be nice to sit there enjoying the breezes under that netting on balmy, buggy evenings.
But when the weather turns bad quickly, as it will in the mountains, I'm glad my trailer's rigid walls won't flap in the wind. I'm even gladder I can park and go inside right away, with zero setup. And leaks? Hey, they make boats of this stuff. Convenience is a big factor for me. Every item of gear inside my trailer is accessible immediately. I can stop and use the porta-potty. I can make a hot meal while I sit out a thundershower. It has real insulation in the walls, so not much heater is required- I've heard the furnaces on nearby pop-ups blasting long into the night, while I needed only a down bag.
I thought Aliners looked nice, but they have so many folding seams and moving parts that I can't imagine them giving decades of service. This Scamp looks like it could ride for a hundred years, with a little service now and then.
I could go on and on, or you could consult the leading blog in the field, www.fiberglassrv.com for many more satisfied owners' accounts. I feel lucky I discovered this option before I bought something else. But plenty of other eggers have come from owning Airstreams and pop-ups. These trailers are little-known because they don't advertise, and they don't sell them off dealers lots. If you spot one of these at a campground, act friendly. We're used to giving tours. Thet's how I decided I wanted one.
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Hi Jack,
By the time you downsize and retool, you could by several cross country trips...
We have a Toyota 4Runner 4wd and pull a 17 foot Casita. The Casita is similar in shape to your Airstream and has all the amenities (bath-shower-fridge-heat-air) but all in a much smaller and lighter package. It isn't much wider than my 4Runner.
I looked at motorhomes-they cost big $$, have another motor to feed $$, need general liability insurance $$, cost a fortune to license in California, and then you still have to pack-up to drive away. Parking and storage were other issues and if I had another vehicle, I most likely forget something in my 4Runner and need to duplicate it in the other rig.
A tent trailer requires assembly as do the hard-side pop-ups. Thus, a small towable was the answer. With the Toyota, my choices were limited to a maximum weight of about 3000-4000 pounds. I wanted something not too tall and not too long and the Casita was what we settled on.
I looked at the Scamps, the other US-made fiberglass trailer, but they were just a bit shorter and not quite as tall on the inside. Casita makes a 13, 16 and 17 footer with the 17 having the most interior room and head space.
We just got finished driving for the last two months-from California to South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana and home, about 9000 and 60 DVDs full of images. Fuel cost for that trip was less than $1300 and average was about 14-15 mpg. The 4Runner is a V6 and both it and the Casita are third-hand. We use regular and the Toyota thrives on 85-86 octane, especially if it isn't the California Designer gas.
We've put on more than 13,000 miles over 90 days this year alone and have had the Casita since 2002. Motels were just too much a drag and took too much time to unpack and pack daily. We would be out shooting till after dark, then need to find a motel and diner for shelter and food and that sometimes took hours...
The Casita has more than paid for itself in time, lodging and meals. It's been to Alaska and all over the west and many narrow and steep back roads that anything longer or wider couldn't maneuver.
We have a power inverter and generator and is all we need for nightly downloads of the digital cameras, battery charging, etc. As to keeping the place cool, we seldom use the a/c any more since we have a power vent in the roof, thus the generator is used minimally.
We've probably have lived in the Casita since its purchase about six-eight months and traveled at least 60,000 miles. A usual trip is at least a week to ten days and many times two-four weeks and we cover anywhere from two to three thousand miles and many times more.
It's not an Airstream as far as the luxury and the interior space, but at night when we are asleep, it looks just the same;-)
Because we are so short (34 feet total length), we can park in a standard two-car Walmart space and in many campgrounds in rural areas were length is an issue.
The Casita is pretty low maintenance, just like your Safari, and all but the graywater tank and outlets are enclosed within the fiberglass shell.
You would probably not know you were towing with your Crewcab if you were to downsize, but at the cost of the vast interior space of your present rig.
There is a pretty good website for support of the Casita at casitaclub.com.
If you want to see our rig, it's on my site at angier-fox.com/images/03-casita-tt/casita.htm
Hope this gives you another option.
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Well said, langier. And what a well-documented site on your Casita. We eggers are an evangelical lot, aren't we? More than any other trailer owners, we believe we're in on a dandy secret that we're obliged to share. This is a different kind of product, with very little advertising and zero dealership presence. Word of mouth has kept these two small family businesses thriving for decades, but now the internet is fueling the fascination. Scamp and Casita maintain months of waiting lists for new trailers, while used buyers happily drive across continents to pick up their prize. Like Airstreams, streamlined these trailers have retro charisma, plus even more rarity. On my first two fuel stops of my cross-country trip, I spent five minutes answering questions. Everyone who camps has seen a Scamp or Casita, but few realize they're still made, or what great deals they make as used vehicles. Even older units from dead manufacturers like Burro and U-Haul can be restored pretty easily.
I do wish you luck with your pop-up tent trailer, Lust4Life. You put out your good money and you deserve a good long period of pride of ownership. I might choose one too, if I knew it wouldn't get too hot or too cold where I was going, or if I needed to sleep six in a small footprint. But for a solo or duo expedition into changable weather, a small fiberglass trailer just makes sense. It's the same for hot weather. I bought mine when the family planned a long drive to Kentucky in (choke) August. Tent camping was out of the question, though I did see some air conditioned tents there. I plugged in and ran a window A/C in a cabinet, as stayed cool as I wanted. One muggy morning, already in the nineties, I was parked next to a big tent trailer. With slideouts and rooftop air, it weighed 1000 pounds more than my Scamp, the owner confirmed. I watched as he toiled continuously for a half hour to fold the sides and roof, mount the bikes on top, hitch up , unplug and drive away. Meanwhile, I made tea, read a book, and went out for a minute every five to perform my short pre-tow checklist (pack items needed in car, turn off propane, raise stabilizer jacks, dump graywater tank, hitch, and last of all, unplug the AC). We finished about the same time, but he was soaked in sweat and I was rested and ready.
Whatever trailer you choose, there are real advantages over a single-unit camping rig like a pickup camper or motorhome. It's great to be able to unhitch and scout remote roads or urban street in the car, while you get the best mileage. And over the long haul, it's easier and cheaper to maintain a simple trailer with a few appliances than a complete vehicle and its all running gear. I'd hesitate to drive into the hinterlands behind a 20-year-old engine and transmission, but my 20-year-old Scamp really has no mission-critical systems as long as the wheels don't fall off. The car that tows it gets steadyuse and regular maintenance, so if it's going to break, it probably will break between vacations, where it's easier to fix. The original poster already knows this, as a trailer owner, of course.
Let us know how you like your pop-up, L4L. If you're ever in Denver, drop by for a ten-minute tiny trailer tour.
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I traded my popup for a T@B trailer this past summer and couldn't be happier. T@B is made by Thor which also makes Airstreams. My T@B has a queen-sized bed, A/C, heat, fridge, potti, 3 huge windows that flip out (I can photograph from inside the trailer in a downpour if I wish and not get wet!). The T@B has an amazing independent suspension & braking system that prevents sway problems of traditional trailer/popup frames and allows it to travel well on all kinds of roads. All this in a 1700 lb package that can be towed by a 4 cyl Subaru (likely to be my next vehichle for better MPG).
I considered the Chalet/A-Liners, but really liked the convenience, thicker insulation, and quality/style of the T@B better. I've camped in sub-freezing temps in the T@B and it is much more LP-efficient than my popup ever was.
I also wanted a trailer I could actually USE while traveling across country-- like being able to pull over at a scenic vista in the middle of nowhere and have my own personal "instant rest stop", or being able to pull into a Wal-Mart or highway stop at night for a quick sleep without having to locate or pay for a CG site.
The Casitas and Scamps looked very nice as well, but as the previous poster mentioned, they have extrememely limited production/distribution and I couldn't find one to buy.
Lots of T@B owners congregate on a Yahoo group forum where there are pics of all kinds of tow vehicle/T@B combinations. The FJ is becoming a very popular tow vehicle as the 2 look extremely stylish together, but anything that can tow 2000 lbs or over can tow a T@B well.
It's a great travel photographer's hotel on wheels!
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I traded my popup for a T@B trailer this past summer and couldn't be happier. extremely stylish together, but anything that can tow 2000 lbs or over can tow a T@B well.
It's a great travel photographer's hotel on wheels!
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One thing for sure about the T@B trailers, they look terriffic. They've expanded the stylish teardrop profile into something really useable for more than sleeping. I might have considered one over the Scamp if they'd been on the market longer-- much longer, to get the purchase price down below $3000 or so. I'll be interested in how these T@Bs age, gracefully or not. It's reassuring that my Scamp has a two-piece molded body, bonded together that won't shake apart and leak over time, as some RV's are prone to do. One other limitation is, I don't see how you'd sleep a third person. We can't leave our nine-year-old home alone on family trips, and wouldn't want to. The T@B's flip-up windows are an advantage I don't have, though.
Limitations aside, no travel trailer looks cooler to me than a two-tone T@B. And who's to say looks aren't important? Not us artists.
BTW, the Subaru platform makes an excellent tow vehicle. For details, search www.fiberglassrv.com or www.casitaclub.com for my detailed accounts of towing in hot weather and high altitudes with a non-turbo Forester. Briefly, I've had no problems: no overheating, no undue engine wear (I had the oil analyzed with normal results), no fearsome moments, no sway, and no brake failures. There's less power, of course- 5th gear becomes overdrive, useless on any upgrade. My "performance envelope" now resembles an old VW Beetle. You drive a little slower, as you should while towing a ton. Though you'll be slow in the Interstate, that's just another reason to choose the blue highways. Every other driver will pass you ASAP, no matter how fast you drive, because you're pulling a trailer and they expect you to be slow.
A British outfit, practicalcaravanning.com, called the turbo Forester "Tow Car of the Year." In the US, of course, "tow car" is an unfamiliar concept, but I'm here to say you don't have to have a truck. Just watch your weight. It's easy to add hundreds of pounds of gear. Find your local truck scale and learn how to use it. I tow at an even ton, 80% of my tow rating. The crucial limitation is tongue weight. You need at least 10%, and Subarus are rated only for 200 lbs back there. There's no easily available air shocks to beef that up. In 2004 when I bought mine, the OEM load-leveling rear shocks came only with the automatic-transmission LL Bean model. But I'd never tow with an automatic. Using the gears wisely, I barely use my brakes as I descend Colorado passes. That's a safety factor I wouldn't trade away.
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I was not aware of the Casita. As I'm almost 6' 5" tall, a critical issue for me is the ability to stand up in the trailer. Of course, in the E-1 by Fleetwood there is enough head room for me, and there was in the Airstream Safari 22' I had - it was just too heavy to tow for the car I wanted. I must admit that I would prefer a "hard wall" unit like an Airstream Bambi 16 or the Casita for security reasons and camping in inclimate weather.
Is your Casita a "four season" rig?
Please advise the head room in your Casita - I went to their web site but interior height is not listed anywhere that I could find.
Thanks,
Jack
Hi Jack,
By the time you downsize and retool, you could by several cross country trips...
We have a Toyota 4Runner 4wd and pull a 17 foot Casita. The Casita is similar in shape to your Airstream and has all the amenities (bath-shower-fridge-heat-air) but all in a much smaller and lighter package. It isn't much wider than my 4Runner.
I looked at motorhomes-they cost big $$, have another motor to feed $$, need general liability insurance $$, cost a fortune to license in California, and then you still have to pack-up to drive away. Parking and storage were other issues and if I had another vehicle, I most likely forget something in my 4Runner and need to duplicate it in the other rig.
A tent trailer requires assembly as do the hard-side pop-ups. Thus, a small towable was the answer. With the Toyota, my choices were limited to a maximum weight of about 3000-4000 pounds. I wanted something not too tall and not too long and the Casita was what we settled on.
I looked at the Scamps, the other US-made fiberglass trailer, but they were just a bit shorter and not quite as tall on the inside. Casita makes a 13, 16 and 17 footer with the 17 having the most interior room and head space.
We just got finished driving for the last two months-from California to South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana and home, about 9000 and 60 DVDs full of images. Fuel cost for that trip was less than $1300 and average was about 14-15 mpg. The 4Runner is a V6 and both it and the Casita are third-hand. We use regular and the Toyota thrives on 85-86 octane, especially if it isn't the California Designer gas.
We've put on more than 13,000 miles over 90 days this year alone and have had the Casita since 2002. Motels were just too much a drag and took too much time to unpack and pack daily. We would be out shooting till after dark, then need to find a motel and diner for shelter and food and that sometimes took hours...
The Casita has more than paid for itself in time, lodging and meals. It's been to Alaska and all over the west and many narrow and steep back roads that anything longer or wider couldn't maneuver.
We have a power inverter and generator and is all we need for nightly downloads of the digital cameras, battery charging, etc. As to keeping the place cool, we seldom use the a/c any more since we have a power vent in the roof, thus the generator is used minimally.
We've probably have lived in the Casita since its purchase about six-eight months and traveled at least 60,000 miles. A usual trip is at least a week to ten days and many times two-four weeks and we cover anywhere from two to three thousand miles and many times more.
It's not an Airstream as far as the luxury and the interior space, but at night when we are asleep, it looks just the same;-)
Because we are so short (34 feet total length), we can park in a standard two-car Walmart space and in many campgrounds in rural areas were length is an issue.
The Casita is pretty low maintenance, just like your Safari, and all but the graywater tank and outlets are enclosed within the fiberglass shell.
You would probably not know you were towing with your Crewcab if you were to downsize, but at the cost of the vast interior space of your present rig.
There is a pretty good website for support of the Casita at casitaclub.com.
If you want to see our rig, it's on my site at angier-fox.com/images/03-casita-tt/casita.htm
Hope this gives you another option.
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I was not aware of the Casita. As I'm almost 6' 5" tall, a critical issue for me is the ability to stand up in the trailer.
-- No good news for you there, lusty. I checked the casitaclub.com site and found owners reporting 6'2" of headroom in their 17-footers. Scamp is the other current maker, with nothing much bigger. At 6'5", you might find these trailers a little small after all. I've grazed my head walking through the door, and I'm 5'7". Sometimes it pays to be a compact-model human.
A few older brands of fiberglass trailers had pop-up roof sections to add a foot or two clearance. That's not a factory option, but I don't know why it couldn't be added as a custom job.
Yes, it's a four-seasons trailer, I suppose. It has insulation and ventilation, and it's as windproof and rainproof as your car. Some folks heat with furnaces, others with catalytic heaters, both fired with propane, same as other RVs. I heard of at least one owner who installed a tiny wood stove designed for boats.
Aliners look like they have more clearance at the peak of the roof. That might be your best bet for a hard-sided compact.
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Here’s one of my vehicles of choice. This is the view I saw on Christmas morning out of the kitchen window; my wife had surprised me with a canoe I’ve always wanted: an 18ft., 39lb., Wenonah Jensen. Adirondacks, Algonquin, and Georgian Bay here I come.
Happy Holidays,
Tom
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I use -- and highly recommend -- the pop-up truck campers made by Four Wheel Campers. I've got a Grandby model on a standard Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup. I leave the tailgate down so interior length is 8 feet, interior height is 6' 4". It takes about one minute to pop up the top. Interior: queen bed, stove, fridge, sink, 20 gal water tank, CD changer, outlet and inverter outlet, power roof vent, all windows screened (lots of ventalation, and screens can be removed for shooting from inside), lots of storage, etc. etc. There is a separate battery for the camper which rechanges when the truck is running. I use this extensively for location work in the western US, and have camped in temps from -20 to over 100 with no problems. It's very comfortable inside, easy to drive. If the weather is bad I can stay warm and dry, make a hot meal, and work on my laptop. When closed the camper is just over a foot higher than the cab, hence it has little effect on milage (I might add that dry weight is just 800 pounds). It's no wider than the standard truck mirrors so I can ease through those narrow spots. For that matter I can park the rig in my garage. Check out www.fourwheelcampers.com. They make quite a number of models, with lots of options, for all pickups including the smaller Toyotas. Right now I've got just over 100,000 miles on the truck/camper.
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One of the reasons I got rid of the Ford F-250 diesel is that I found it impractical for running down extensive miles of Forest Service roads seeking out hiking trails and the ever elusive one missed landsccape photo opportunity in North America.
I did do it on numerous opportunities but was never comfortable with the size of the F-250 diesel crew 4x4 on the FS trails and frequently turned back rather than risk sliding off a cliff on a narror trail. Also the rear end would jump all over the place when you went town a "wash board" road and putting me on the edge of loosing direction control of the rig.
For instance, two Sundays ago I drove over 30 miles on narrow winding FS trails in N. GA and TN in my FJ - Was in 4x4 much of othe time but never felt like the trail was too risky, where I would have in the F-250 crew cab on some of the route.
Thus, truck option for me and my type of exploring is out.
So far, I'm quite comfortable with the FJ-Cruiser and the E-1 but find the following as disadvantages when compared to the Airstream or like rig:
1. Biggest is canvas sides = no security for anything in the E-1. Must restow all camera and computer gear back in the FJ if leaving the campsite, even to go to the shower and bath house. (Carry 4x5 with collection of lenses and Canon 1Ds MK II with lenses.) Also in a rainstorm or windstorm you just don't feel comfortable inside as compared to an Airstream travel trailer.
2. Not a true 4 season rig - I'm becoming interested in doing some winter/snow/ice photography and the idea of staying in the E-1 in 15 degree night air is not real compelling.
3. Set up time at the campsite or if you are on the road and want to fix lunch - not an option that makes sense as compared to pulling into Wendy's. With the Airstream we normally fixed our own sandwich with healthy ingredients.
Advantages: Tows great without a fancy expensive hitch! Decent fuel mileage and burning gas instead of the diesel that is more expensive that any of the gas grades. Plenty of head room. Large beds. Costs a fraction of an Airstream.
Future: Continue with current set up (FJ-Cruiser with Fleetwood E-1) and try to avoid tieing up far more cash in an Airstream Bambi 16' rig. (I can just fit in the Airstream.) In short, the Airstream Bambi 16' rig is hard to resist once you've had it but I'm currently enjoying the E-1 and my savings account hopes that will continue! :-)
Closing note: I am totally satisfied with the FJ. Getting excellent mileage compared to the F-250. Around town I'm getting 18.6-19 and on the highway driving at 73-75 mph I'm getting 20.7-21. Burn mid-grade. My FJ is a 4x4 unit with all the options. It's a blast to drive and really takes rough FS trails with ease. I have about 5,000 miles on it now and it's less than 3 months old - will be taking it in today to have it's first oil change done and I'm going to use Mobile One in it. In short, I can't sing it praises loud enough. It even tows my Lund 1800 Sport Fisherman with ease.
I use -- and highly recommend -- the pop-up truck campers made by Four Wheel Campers. I've got a Grandby model on a standard Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup. I leave the tailgate down so interior length is 8 feet, interior height is 6' 4". It takes about one minute to pop up the top. ................................
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I've been lurking on this board and found it most helpful so far. I do a lot of hiking/camping/photography in the four corners region. Right now, I can go just about anywhere in my Toyota Land Cruiser and I sleep in the back with the seats down. The downside is that it is a tight fit for two people and our new addition to trips, our dog. Plus, the wife doesn't so much care for the cold. So, I've been searching for the perfect solution myself.
My main goal is to be able to four-wheel/off-road just about anywhere and then camp in relative comfort. Perhaps I am missing something, but can these trailers be towed off-road? My version of fourwheeling is fairly rugged- much more than washboard roads. I regularly hit the skid-plates on the cruiser and scrape the bumpers going over, through, out of washes, slickrock steps, etc.
I've narrowed it down to:
1. a Four Wheel Camper or All Terrain Camper (FWC's new competitor) and a half-ton pickup. My main concern here is weight. Although both rigs have dry weights of 700lbs, when you add two people, dog, water, propane, food and gear you are going to meet or top the 1650 payload of most half-tons. A bigger truck like the f-250, etc. is out of the question for me. So I am concerned about offroading with that much weight. Does anyone have any experiences with this sort of setup?
2. a tow-behind, off-road, pop-up, camper trailer like the Adventure Trailer http://www.adventuretrailers.com/ (http://www.adventuretrailers.com/) There are many like this out there. I would very much prefer a hard-sided or mostly-hardsided setup (wife has a MAJOR fear of bears- irrational, I/she knows, but a good night sleep is important without the "what was that noise?" issues) and they seem to be warmer and quieter on windy nights. I have two concerns here: they seem to be all tent-sided, which may or may not allow for a heater; and can one really off-road with these things? It would seem the hitching parts between the hitch and the trailer itself could cause breakover angle issues. Anyone have any thoughts here?
Thanks for the great forum. I've learned a lot here.
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I use -- and highly recommend -- the pop-up truck campers made by Four Wheel Campers. I've got a Grandby model on a standard Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John, can you stand on the top of the camper without damaging it?
JC
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The Adventure Trailer looks quite rugged, much more trail-worthy than a Scamp. The question is, is it camp-worthy? What does it provide you that a large camping tent doesn't? It puts you up off the ground, and that's good, until the wind starts blowing hard. That kind of big, square-sided tent looks to me like a flapper. The traielr box provides some extra cargo space. But if space inside the vehicle isn't insufficient, I'd probably prefer sleeping on the ground (and a good pad ) in my choice of high-grade family-sized dome tents that are available at one-tenth the price. On those kinds of roads, I might not want a trailer tagging behind- makes it too hard to turn around! But that's how "Bush Tucker Man" toured the Australian outback in that late, great Travel Channel show, with a tiny Land Rover and even tinier trailer, so it might work.
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From what I've learned:
Diesel truck with on truck camper: Truck is too big and tail too light to be of much use on off roads or running down Forest Service roads in most of the areas I've been. There were many FS roads where my 2006 F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel would not make a sharp curve and was too wide to feel safe on a narror trail with a steep cliff on one side. Many times it kept me for going further on a trail that I would have easily proceed down in my FJ. Plus cost of a good truck is much higher than an FJ if you buy it right, as I did.
Rig is top heavy and to do any serious attempts at off roading you must remove the camper. The cost of diesel is substantially higher than regular or mid grade gas. In short, nothing about it is to my personal liking.
My Toyota FJ is a great solution with the Fleetwood Evolution E-1 trailer IF you are comfortable with a pop-up. The trailer is made for off road travel with 15" tires and great ground clearance. On the highway it towed like it wasn't there! Pull into your campsite, unhook and run your FJ down any trail there is or off road and get great mileage compared to a truck. Places a truck wouldn't think of going. You could even put a trail/dirt bike on the front deck of the E-1 if you were so moved.
Only thing is you must be happy with a pop-up camper logic (a tent on wheels). If you are, this is a great solution.
With my FJ I get 20-21 MPG on the highway and 18.6 City on mid-grade gas. Towing the E-1 on the highway my mileage dropped to 15.6 MPG - not bad!
Picture of the unit is attached, if I did it correctly.
Only reason I went to the Airstream Bambi 16' unit is: to encourage my wife to go with me; security for myself and my camera gear; at 60 years old I'm not as excited about a tent trailer as I would have been even 10 years ago; I'm just plain spoiled!
[attachment=1715:attachment]
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From what I've learned:
Diesel truck with on truck camper: Truck is too big and tail too light to be of much use on off roads or running down Forest Service roads in most of the areas I've been. There were many FS roads where my 2006 F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel would not make a sharp curve and was too wide to feel safe on a narror trail with a steep cliff on one side. Many times it kept me for going further on a trail that I would have easily proceed down in my FJ. Plus cost of a good truck is much higher than an FJ if you buy it right, as I did.
Rig is top heavy and to do any serious attempts at off roading you must remove the camper. The cost of diesel is substantially higher than regular or mid grade gas. In short, nothing about it is to my personal liking.
My Toyota FJ is a great solution with the Fleetwood Evolution E-1 trailer IF you are comfortable with a pop-up. The trailer is made for off road travel with 15" tires and great ground clearance. On the highway it towed like it wasn't there! Pull into your campsite, unhook and run your FJ down any trail there is or off road and get great mileage compared to a truck. Places a truck wouldn't think of going. You could even put a trail/dirt bike on the front deck of the E-1 if you were so moved.
Only thing is you must be happy with a pop-up camper logic (a tent on wheels). If you are, this is a great solution.
With my FJ I get 20-21 MPG on the highway and 18.6 City on mid-grade gas. Towing the E-1 on the highway my mileage dropped to 15.6 MPG - not bad!
Picture of the unit is attached, if I did it correctly.
Only reason I went to the Airstream Bambi 16' unit is: to encourage my wife to go with me; security for myself and my camera gear; at 60 years old I'm not as excited about a tent trailer as I would have been even 10 years ago; I'm just plain spoiled!
[attachment=1715:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98699\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting. What part of the country did you say you are in? I spend a lot of time in the four corners region and have yet to come across a trail too narrow for the Land Cruiser. The LC is about 3-4" narrower than most full size trucks and the turning radius is a few feet less. There are narrow trails that I have seen, but for reasons other than narrowness, I'll probably never explore them. (Your truck does have a very long turning radius: >50ft compared to mine at <40ft. The new Tundra is 44ft, f150 44, Silverado and Ram 47). It might be a tight fit over some of the rockier sections, with leaning near boulders, etc. The longer wheelbase might also cause breakover issues. High-centering is a concern.
The Four Wheel Campers are notoriously light and not top heavy from what I hear. Can anyone confirm their center of gravity is relatively low?
I do love the FJ, but am concerned about the tent sided popup, about trailers "disappearing" and about dragging the thing off road. I couldn't pull the E1 to places I like to visit. Adventure Trailer- maybe. Unfortunately, "desert rats" in the SW can steal just about anything while you are off on a short hike. They bring bolt cutters, extra couplers, etc and can simply drive off with your trailer. I'd hate to come back to that. Not that I've seen it happen, but those stories float around.
FYI, the LC gets about 14mpg on average (87 octane). 16 on a flat highway. Never more. The new Tundra is supposed to do 14-18 on 87 gas. I imagine with a heavy load it would be at or slightly below the low-end, so I wouldn't be giving up mpg, just not improving.
I certainly appreciate your expertise and experience. Great advice to be considered.
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Adventure Trailer- maybe. Unfortunately, "desert rats" in the SW can steal just about anything while you are off on a short hike. They bring bolt cutters, extra couplers, etc and can simply drive off with your trailer. I'd hate to come back to that. Not that I've seen it happen, but those stories float around.
FYI, the LC gets about 14mpg on average (87 octane). 16 on a flat highway. Never more. The new Tundra is supposed to do 14-18 on 87 gas. I imagine with a heavy load it would be at or slightly below the low-end, so I wouldn't be giving up mpg, just not improving.
I certainly appreciate your expertise and experience. Great advice to be considered.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm sorry to hear that this is becoming a problem in the canyon country. My hitch lock would be pretty hard to get around. But if I was worried about this, I'd choose the most distinctive trailer I could find. Then I'd paint it in a distinctive color scheme. When I'm traveling, I see another Scamp/Casita-style trailer on the road no more than once a week, and perhaps a little more often sitting in camp. Sure, you could steal it and hide it in a garage, but what then? Anything can be fenced and turned into money, but a rare trailer would be more difficult than a common pop-up.
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I'm sorry to hear that this is becoming a problem in the canyon country. My hitch lock would be pretty hard to get around. But if I was worried about this, I'd choose the most distinctive trailer I could find. Then I'd paint it in a distinctive color scheme. When I'm traveling, I see another Scamp/Casita-style trailer on the road no more than once a week, and perhaps a little more often sitting in camp. Sure, you could steal it and hide it in a garage, but what then? Anything can be fenced and turned into money, but a rare trailer would be more difficult than a common pop-up.
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Excellent point!
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I was looking for something like that
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/376774706_f364a821f6.jpg)
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Great shot!!!!!!!
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[attachment=1853:attachment]I always take "The Bus".
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I'm sorry to hear that this is becoming a problem in the canyon country. My hitch lock would be pretty hard to get around. But if I was worried about this, I'd choose the most distinctive trailer I could find. Then I'd paint it in a distinctive color scheme. When I'm traveling, I see another Scamp/Casita-style trailer on the road no more than once a week, and perhaps a little more often sitting in camp. Sure, you could steal it and hide it in a garage, but what then? Anything can be fenced and turned into money, but a rare trailer would be more difficult than a common pop-up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Excellent point!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98720\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I've had no trouble with the FJ. What I said was regarding the Ford F-250.
"There were many FS roads where my 2006 F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel would not make a sharp curve and was too wide to feel safe on a narror trail with a steep cliff on one side. "
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I have owned and driven 4x4 vehicles for the past 40 years, and seldom except on a boat ramp or in deep snow, have I found myself in conditions that a front wheel drive vehicle with adequate ground clearance could not negotiate just as well and with a lot less wear and tear on the passengers.
One option I have used for areas far from home is to fly in and then rent a small RV or a 4x4 1 ton with a cabover camper. I don't waste time or money (gas, vehicle wear, food, and lodging) going to the area I want to explore. I just land, go pickup the rental which is always very low mileage and less than a year old, drive to the nearest supermarket to stock up on groceries and hit the road. With a 14 day trip to Alaska (and I did 5 such trips) I spent 13 of those days in Alaska traveling around and taking pictures and fishing.
These RV rentals exist in many parts of the country and the vehicles can be taken into Canada and Mexico.
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[attachment=1853:attachment]I always take "The Bus".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Five, count 'em, FIVE air conditioners.
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Thinking of buying an E1 but I have a 1995 Toyota T-100 (3.4 V6). Anyone know how it will tow with that type of truck???
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WhatzanE1?
For comparison, a friend with a T-100 identical to yours pulled a newer, fairly light 18-foot travel trailer round trip from Seattle to visit us in Alaska. Usual average MPG without the trailer- 18 MPG. Logged average MPG for the trip- 11 MPG. Third gear on most hills, second gear and 35 mph on the worst ones. When he got home he kept the trailer but replaced the T-100 with a 3/4-ton diesel.
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Just saw this thread and thought I’d add to it.
We used to have a Class A w/4 slides and MPG of about 5 while towing a Jeep Wrangler. While we couldn’t complain about the comfort we did have problems. In researching places to go we also had to factor in where we could park the bus. Good point is Moab. The bus was too large to fit the National Campgrounds so the closest we could stay was in Moab. Figure twice to three times expensive just for a place to park. Then figure timing. Sunrise is at 5 am and you are at least 1 hr from where you want to shoot, that means getting up around 3:30 to get there in time. Tags for this beast were expensive in AZ to the tune of $4,000. Did I mention the 5 MPG diesel? Last trip was for several weeks (I believe it was close to 5) in 2006 driving to MT, WY, etc. Again couldn’t stay in the parks. We spent our spare time on that trip seeking out an alterative to the bus.
Enter the Lance pickup camper. We returned to Tucson early September 2006 and sold the bus. We already had a 2007 Ford F350 shortbed and went to a Lance dealer and brought a slidein camper. Best decision we ever made! Fully loaded (diesel engine) we are averaging around 12 mpg (with the camper loaded) and the truck is just getting better (less than 24,000 miles on it). We’ve taken this rig from AZ to FL staying the entire time in the camper and spending far less (in some cases nothing at all) on overnight stops. But it gets better. I went up to Moab shortly after we got the camper and stayed in the park. Sunrise was at 530 and I didn’t roll out of bed till 5, steped out the back of the camper and was right where I wanted to be for the first shot of the day. Tags are cheaper as we only pay for the truck. We’ve been more places and stayed longer than we ever did in the bus. We plan on being on the road in the camper for just shy of 12 weeks this year as we drive up to Alaska. We no longer need to tow an extra vehicle as we have the choice of either unloading the camper and driving around, or taking it with us. I just returned from the South Rim early December and decided to keep the camper on the truck. I had a ready made place for lunch all the while driving a pickup.
We wouldn’t trade our current setup for anything. BTW, we have a full queen size bed, nice size stove and oven and a refrigerator along with air and heat and a generator. We had a microwave but removed it to make more storage. I guess I need to add that my wife is 6-1 and I’m 6-9 – the interior of the Lance is 6-8 not a bad compromise at all.
don
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Sounds excellent Don!
I'll add a couple of fine tuning points based on the experience and strategies of friends we often travel with, who coincidentally have a Lance on a 1-ton diesel.
Theirs has screw jacks at each corner, and they found just the right socket to fit, and they use a cordless drill to raise and lower the camper. They can have the camper off and sitting on the ground in a couple of minutes, and reload it just about as fast.
Another fine tuning point was a visit to a custom marine canvas shop. The shop installed snaps around the underside of the cabover, then made a canvas curtain that snaps into place. It rolls up relatively small when not in use, but snapped in place it creates a great little room they use in all sorts of ways. Even without the canvas, that cabover makes a great sunshade, as you probably know already.
The final improvement was to buy one of those shower "tents" from Cabellas. When we're dry camping they erect it next to the camper and attach a shower nozzle with a stop on the outside faucets of the camper. Add a small wooden (duckboard, actually) platform to the bottom of the shower and you're feet are up out of the developing mud, much less sand or gravel. When not in the shower, it's handy in front of the door for limiting tracked in dirt.
Yeah, we're leaning very closely toward the same rig for our own needs. As you say, it's the right mix of comfort and convenience.
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Hank-- thanks for the info. The E1 is a pop-up type trailer made by Fleetwood that has a loaded weight of 3500 pounds. that is about the max on what Toyota suggests. I did not want to buy a newer truck if i do not have to. I imagine if your friend towed an 18ft travel trailer, I should not have a problem with a seemingly lighter pop-up. Thanks again for the information. Travis
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Is the Fleetwood E1 their "offroad" version with the larger tires, heavier frame and tapered bottom fore and aft for more ground clearance? We've looked vary carefully at that particular model, and frankly we're impressed. If we don't elect to upgrade trucks (ours is a V-8 Tundra with canopy, BTW) and add a camper, we're likely to go with the model I described, whether or not the E1. We've seen several in campgrounds and out in the desert. Conversations with the owners confirm out positive impressions.
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Yes it is that one with the off road tires. Looks like you can take it places you could not take anything else. I am hoping it tows with a T-100. I have seen people towing them with much larger trucks so I am a bit concerned that I will only be putting along, burning up my transmission and needing a new truck. I like them because they seem to give you the "real" feeling of camping but alot more comfort than a tent. I am glad to hear that you have heard good remarks about them.
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I bet you can tow it fine with a T-100, but deciding how much extra gear and water you can also lug will be a learned skill. In the maritime world of vessel stability, there's a technical term called "load creap," the process by which additional weight is added slowly to a vessel (statistical average- 2%/annum) in the normal course of use, eventually accumulating to the point that the accumulated weight can compromise stability. We've found the same to be true while camping five months a year in our Tundra. I it will be true with the Fleetwood as well.
BTW- Here's the most useful "mod" I've seen for serious offroad use of that model. The owner replaced the hitch with a "pelican" setup, which is in common use on military trailers. It's basically a heavy ring replacement for the conventional hitch on the trailer tongue and a locking hook on the truck to engage the ring. A pelican allows much more freedom of movement for the trailer while twisting and turning over rough terrain. We'll do the same with ours when and if we get it.
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Okay, I guess "pelican" is more a local name, and "pintle hook" is the recognized technical name. Here's a link (http://www.usa-trailer-hitches.com/WD/pintle-hooks.htm) that does a much better job of explaining it than I did.
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In light of the recent dramatic increase in fuel costs, and betting that it has not really ended, I would like to hear what others are using when they take off on landscape photo shoots lasting 2 to 5 weeks.
I'm currently driving a 2006 Ford F-250 crew cab 4x4 diesel towing a 22' Airstream Safari. This is a great combination for comfort and campgrounds are substantially cheaper than hotels and get me closer to my subject matter. But as far as keeping the fuel cost down of a long trip it's terrible. Get about 10-11 mpg towing and 14 not towing (And yes, Ford has checked out my truck and says I'm getting the mileage that the vehicle was designed to get.).
Thus, a planned trip from Atlanta to Seattle would be about 5300 miles round trip, costing about $1,300 round trip in fuel if the average price for diesel runs about $2.90/gal.
I've been looking at the Toyota FJ Cruiser 4x4 and thinking of it towing a light camper (must have heat and A/C) but something like a small HiLo or other type of trailer with "hard sides". (I prefer the hard sided trailers for the advantage of better protection of any gear left in the trailer - Coleman type fabric sides are just too easy to get into with a pocket knife.)
Seems like the lost comfort in the much smaller trailer would be balanced with the fuel savings, thus I'll take off on more trips.
I've talked with several folks locally that own the new FJ and I'm hearing they are getting 20-22 on the highway and about 16 around the city. Figure towing a small camper it should get about 15 on the highway. Thus on a trip to Seattle there would be a fuel savings of over $406.
This is enough savings to add up to a decent amount if a chap is taking 6 to 7 trips a year of any distance.
Due to the fuel cost I'm being forced to re-think my current approach. So, some questions to resolve:
1. Towing a trailer or using hotels, etc.
2. If towing, what trailers have worked well for diverse climates - pop up; Airstream style; truck campers; etc.
3. If towing, what tow vehicle and fuel mpg are you getting? Burn regular fuel?
4. Lenght of trip you usually take?
5. Vehicle - 2 wheel drive or have you found it necessary to pay the premium for four wheel drive.
6. Recommeded light weight campers that you have found to meet your needs.
In short, I like to hear what others are doing to control our costs when we take off on 2-5 week USA landscape adventures.
I've added an Excel spreadsheet that I use to plan trips and project expenses - let me know if you have any improvement to suggest.
Thanks,
Jack
http://www.shadowsdancing.com (http://www.shadowsdancing.com)
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I use a GMC 2500HD (parts & repairs anywhere in N. America but a real gas guzzler) with a Lance truck camper on the bed. Good strong roof for shooting from, accessible from inside or out. Gives me a camera height of about 15-17 feet. Just have to be careful not to step on the solar panel!
4X4 means I can get off the beaten track. Capacities plus solar means I'm good for about three days before needing water, sewage dump etc. Great rig - has taken me from Newfoundland to BC to Texas to Florida, and the rear seat holds all my gear and fully extended tripod.
Bill
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Don’t know what I was thinking of when I posted the original message but Bill’s message made me think of it.
The Lance has a very strong roof, capable of handling somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000 lbs., more than enough to fit me and my tripod on to get that extra reach in height! What a great combo for photography!
Okay, end of commercial!
don
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Don’t know what I was thinking of when I posted the original message but Bill’s message made me think of it.
The Lance has a very strong roof, capable of handling somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000 lbs., more than enough to fit me and my tripod on to get that extra reach in height! What a great combo for photography!
Okay, end of commercial!
don
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If you're 6ft 9ins you hardly need the extra height. ...but your original post was right on.
I moved from diesel to gas because the Ford 350 I had back in 1999 was just too noisy. People in campgrounds don't like being woken up by an early-bird photographer at 5 am - and the early birds all flew off too. The gas mileage for the GMC is 10 mpg (US gallon) thanks to the 8 litre engine but it was the only way to get the outstanding Allison transmission.
The Lance is a great quality camper.
Bill
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I'm in Australia, so our requirments may be different, but here is what we use.
Our setup has been designed for Long range touring, both by road, and off-road (desert, mountains etc), in Australia. Its a big sparese country and at times it can be a long way between source of fuel and water. Recently this setup took my wife and I 9,150km through central Aus, where 4,500km of those was dirt road at best, and rough 4WD tracks or open desert. 4 weeks, and 5,500 photo's later
It was also designed to avoid having to tow anything, and be self sufficient for up to 4 weeks or so, in relative comfort.
Toyota 100 Series Landcruiser, FZJ105R. (Petrol, 6Cylinder 4.5ltr) Live Axle
Twin Wheel carrier (for 2 spares)
Roof Top Tent
60ltr Fridge
275 ltrs of Fuel
80 Ltrs of Water (60 in Stainless steel tank) inthe back, 20 emergency in Jerry cans).
We have pulled the rear seats out, replaced it with a shelf for storage. Fitted a Cargo barrier, 60ltr Water tank and Draw system at the back.
The other features are more for 4WD in Australia, such as Steel bullbar, steel sidesteps, twin diff-locks, 50mm suspension left and 33" Tyres. Note this is not a vehicle that gets driven around town much, it pretty much only goes out for Trips.
Some Photo's attached.
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Regards
Mark.
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For location work as a landscape photographer, IMHO nothing beats a van. Mini or maxi, it's the most cost-effective, photo-effective combination of transportation and accommodation. I can't begin to list the incredible locations I *awakened at*, all because I choose to travel in a 1988 Astro. Last time I looked - 320,000 kms, $0.10 per km at about $.90 per liter fuel cost.
Motels just don't cut it. They're too far from the pictures.
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I used to sell cars for a living and still have a lot of friends who buy/sell/wholesale vehicles (both new and used).
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Part I[/span]
Peter, your observations about the Chevy Astro Van are spot-on. As far as economy of driving goes, they get about 20mpg hwy, and the interior cargo room (with the rear seats taken out) can't be beat for the money. As far as price to get in goes, in the year 2000, I purchased a used 1986 Astro van for $3,000 that had 112,000 miles on it. It served me well up until 325,000 miles, including trips made back-n-forth from Nashville to Atlanta more than 10x. Went from California to Florida and back twice. That was a lot of service I got ... for just 3 grand
Further, the 4.3 motor in the Astro van is the best motor Chevy ever made. Ward's Auto World is the industry leader in evaluating motors, and Chevy's 4.3 motor is one of the Top 10 V-6 designs ever built. Engines are rated on power-per-cc, fuel economy, low emissions, and low need for maintenance/repairs, and the 4.3 motor excels in all categories.
Therefore, if "saving money" is the true motivating force here for travel, buying a used Astro van with a clean history would cost the least to get in, it would get great fuel economy, and it would very likely outlast almost any vehicle choice listed, engine-wise. Another thing about the Astro is the fact it is the ONLY minivan in America with rear-wheel drive. Many vans come with all-wheel drive (AWD) but that is not true 4x4 capability. What this means is that, while other vans can only tow about 3000 lb, the Astro van can tow 6,500 lb, beating most light- and medium-duty trucks.
However, that said, the rear-wheel "strength" of the Astro in its towing capacity ... is also its weakness for all-weather travel; these vans are simply miserable on snow or other severely-inclement weather. You absolutely WILL get stuck in deep snow or damp ground, if a rear tire sinks in there.
The bottom line is for summer travel there is no more economical choice than an Astro van, if fuel economy and not much damage to your wallet to get into one are the truly motivating factors. However, if inclement weather and rough terrain are factors you will be facing, then the Astro van simply will not cut it here. Which brings us to ...
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Part II[/span]
The Nissan Pathfinder (2005-beyond). Nobody has mentioned this vehicle, but the 4x4 Nissan Pathfinder, post-2005 (with Hill Start Assist and Hill Descent Control), offers more bang-for-the-buck than any other 4x4 out there.
First off all, the 2004 and earlier Pathfinders were completely different vehicles. They did not have true truck frames, nor true 4x4 capabilities. They were glorified "grocery-grabbers," basically.
But the 2005 Pathfinders have true 4x4 capability, and in fact more of them than any other 4x4 under $60,000 ... and yet they are only about $38,000 to get in (and if you get a used one, you can get in for about $25K-28K). These vehicles will cost less to get in than the big Toyota, cost less in gas mileage, they will cover any 4x4 situation equal-to or better-than, and they are smaller and narrower to boot. And, finally, the VQ design in Nissan's V-6 motors have won more awards than any other V-6 engine design in automotive history, and are the ONLY engine that has been on Ward's Autoworld's "Top 10" list all 14 years Ward's Auto World has been rating motors ... and the Pathfinder's engine is the best and most powerful VQ motor Nissan has ever designed, out-performing many V8s in its class ...
Further, the Pathfinder's rear seats all fold completely flat, thereby maximizing the usable space in the back, and tow-wise the newer Pathfinders can drag about 6,500 lb also.
Finally, take it from an ex car guy with friends all over the business, and that is buying "a new car" is the single WORST investment (rather waste) of your money you can do. BUY USED INSTEAD. Why? In the first 3 years of car ownership, your vehicle depreciates the greatest. But after 3 years the depreciation begins to level out. An extreme example: a fellow traded in his Mercedes 500SL in our dealership. He paid $88,000 for it new, and yet in 3 short years that same car was only worth $31K. That man just lost $57,000 in a mere 3 years. BUT >>>> the fellow who picked it up and bought that trade-in for $35,000 got a beautiful vehilce at about a $50,000 discount from the original sticker price
And, even though Toyota holds its value better than a Mercedes, don't think you're going to buy a new $50,000 vehicle and have "saved money" after 3 years. You will have LOST at least $12,000 in depreciation, minimum, after 3 years of driving ... and that's over and above the difference you paid to get into it. (And that is also if it is "low mileage" after 3 years ... the fact is you will probably lose between $15,000 to $18,000 in depreciation if you are running-up your mileage with cross-country driving during those same 3 years.)
So folks, whatever you like, and whatever you do in your purchase decision, DO NOT BUY A NEW vehicle if "saving money" is your strategy. "Buying New" and "Saving Money" are simply an oxymoron when you are talking about depreciating vehicles. If you just want a new car, then buy it. But don't think for a minute you have saved anything, what you have done is thrown away your money on impulse.
Instead, if saving money is your true goal, while still getting something nice, then let depreciation work FOR YOU ... and buy your vehicles right at about the 3-year-old range. Why? Because the most major fall in the depreciation curve of vehicle value levels-out at about the 3-year mark, on top of which the vehicles are still relatively new at that age, and finally because 3-year-old vehicles will usually still come with a sizeable balance on their warranties
So if you follow an ex car guy's advice, you can take all that money you saved listening to me ... and put it into better gear, a better trip, and to sleeping better at night.
Jack
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You Americans are funny!
Enjoy it while you can and shoot enviromentalists on sight!
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I'll buy the "you Americans are funny" part, but back off on "shoot[ing] environmentalists on sight," OK.
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My Honda Element Camper. Running water; cabinets; lots of gear storage; pantry; folding bench/bed; and compressor fridge/freezer. 20-30 MPG
http://jpjespersen.blogspot.com/2006/12/ta...st-lots-of.html (http://jpjespersen.blogspot.com/2006/12/table-mode-no-more-spare-just-lots-of.html)
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How about this: http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/pricing.htm (http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/pricing.htm)
Or if you have big bucks to spend: http://www.earthroamer.com/ (http://www.earthroamer.com/)
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Oh yeah. i've been dreaming of those Tiger campers for a while. I would paint in grey.
How about this: http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/pricing.htm (http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/pricing.htm)
Or if you have big bucks to spend: http://www.earthroamer.com/ (http://www.earthroamer.com/)
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Or if you have big bucks to spend: http://www.earthroamer.com/ (http://www.earthroamer.com/)
Wow, those Earth Roamers look pretty sweet. Too bad they cost more than my house...
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These rooftop tents look very cool. They could be put on top of almost any vehicle with a roofrack. I am considering one for the top of my go anywhere Jeep Liberty. I like the fact that they have a decent mattress and that the bedding is stored in place. Pop it up and bed down. On the other hand, there aren't any cooking or toilet facilities, but that stuff can be stored separately.
AutoHome US (http://www.autohomeus.com/)
...then, if you need more storage, couple it with one of these little trailers and a yakima box. I could carry my kayaks and a box on the trailer and a rooftop tent on the car....all with a pretty modest vehicle. I am considering moving to something like a subaru forester for this approach.
http://www.rackandroll.com/ (http://www.rackandroll.com/)
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Forget about a trailer, and gas guzzling V8 truck. This is 2008, and that old model has not worked since 2002.
I would get a small car, like what I drive; 2007 Toyota Yaris. Stay in mid-tier hotels. I get 45 mpg by driving 65-70 on highways. This car is big enough for all my gear, me, and a 2nd person, no problem.
Life is way too short to pi$$ away big $ on gas.
I'm taking a driving tour of the state of New Mexico (from California) first two weeks of June, and I'm following my own advise, and feel pretty happy about my set up.
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I would get a small car, like what I drive; 2007 Toyota Yaris. Stay in mid-tier hotels.
Life is way too short to pi$$ away big $ on gas.
You'll spend close to $100 per night at a motel. I can travel 500 miles on that $100 and I get to sleep where the pictures are - not always, but often enough to make a BIG difference in my photographs.
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Forget about a trailer, and gas guzzling V8 truck. This is 2008, and that old model has not worked since 2002.
I would get a small car, like what I drive; 2007 Toyota Yaris. Stay in mid-tier hotels. I get 45 mpg by driving 65-70 on highways. This car is big enough for all my gear, me, and a 2nd person, no problem.
Life is way too short to pi$$ away big $ on gas.
I'm taking a driving tour of the state of New Mexico (from California) first two weeks of June, and I'm following my own advise, and feel pretty happy about my set up.
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I just spent three weeks in NM and AZ, driving with my wife in our 2001 Tundra with canopy. We camped all the way. On the few nights that we were in campgrounds rather than dry camping, the fee was never more than $20. We ate well and cheap because we did it ourselves rather than eating out, as would be the case if we were hoteling it. I call $20 or less a night for a bedroom and less than $20 a day for food a pretty fair tradeoff for 20mpg rather than 45mpg. Considering that we spent lots of time right at remote locations rather than driving miles to a hotel, I bet we even came out ahead on gas, too. And of course the high clearance and 4WD let us access lots of places way off the beaten path, then stay right there overnight.
Each of us has to find our own solutions and economies, and the point is to be happy about how we do it. We're darned happy and wouldn't give up our Tundra for a 45mpg car. The sacrifices for better gas mileage would cost us more in the long run without a doubt.
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"Each of us has to find our own solutions and economies, and the point is to be happy about how we do it."
I am finishing up a 3k+ miles swing through NM, AZ, UT, NV, TX in a two seat car..whatever works...*g*
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I just finished doing the bookkeeping on our trip. I thought some folks would be interested.
In 77 days we logged a little over 12,000 miles hitting destinations in Washington, Oregon, California, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico. We averaged a fraction shy of 20 mpg in our 2001 Tundra and spent $2100 plus a bit on gas. That's an average of pennies over $27/day.
Mostly camping and prepping our own meals, we spent an average of $24/day on life support, including a few meals out, a few nights in cheap hotels, and a few nights in formal campgrounds.
Those figures are all rounded to the nearest $, but our trip cost work out to $51 a day for transportation, beds and meals for two people.
No our digs weren't fancy, and sometimes they weren't all that comfortable. But we ate very well (try stuffing fresh aneheim chilis with cheese, wrapping them in bacon and grilling them over the fire, eg), and we had good wine most nights. Gotta love the cheap case prices in California, but I'm sure the three cases in our truck cut our mileage. Some tradeoffs I'm willing to make.
And that's the bottom line for most folks I know who camp. If you do your own cooking too, you can usually cover all your gas, bed and food costs (including good wine) for what you spend for a very moderate hotel alone without the camping gear, and still have to buy gas and eat. If you're driving you're own rig rather than renting, costs drop even more. We could cut the costs even further by driving something cheaper, but at the cost of comforts in camp including cases of wine.
For most people I know, the tradeoffs boil down more to comfort choices than money savings. Hotels and restaurants are more expensive than camping, but free you of a lot of housekeeping. Large camping setups are more expensive to support than small ones, but offer a whole lot more comfort in exchange.
I'd have cut costs a bunch if I was driving a 40+ mpg sedan and camping light, but a lot of those cost savings would have occurred because my wife would have stayed home. That's a compromise I'm unwilling to make.
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Hank,
Thanks for sharing that info. It looks like you have developed a great travel system.
My wife and I gave up on motels and camp out of the back of our 2001 Nissan Frontier when were on photo trips. With over 120,000 miles on the truck we still average about 22mpg. Like you we found that what we gave up on fuel economy was made up with less driving between motels and shooting locations, and it's less stressful being right there for the shoot.
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Wanted to get an update on how we landscape photographers are coping with the cost of getting "out there" to capture our images.
I started this post back in 2006 and times were quite different then.
Given the economy, the prices fuel has been to and will be returning to as the economy strengthens, the need to hold on to as much of our cash as possible given the uncertain economic times, what seems to be the best method of getting out there to capture our images?
FYI - Over the years, I've tried several alternative and must admit Life is built on Compromise!
My History:
Volkswagen camper - was great for it's time. No longer made and I'd like more comfort and features now that I've "matured". Also, never like the lack of an engine in front of the drivers seat - you were going to be the first on the scene of an accident, but it sure served it purpose when I was back in my 20's.
40' diesel pusher towing a Jeep = great comfort and Jeep takes you down any trail once you get to destination. But at 7MPG diesel the cost of the trip beat my wallet to death! Imagine driving 700 miles at 7MPG and fueling up needing 100 gallons of diesel back when the prices were higher than they are now.
Toyota FJ Cruiser with Fleetwood Pop Up camper - FJ has a very small fuel tank and got really poor mileage towing the Pop Up - about 11mpg.
In shot, won't do that again.
Mercedes ML 320 CDI/diesel towing Airstream Bambi 16' CCD trailer - fuel economy was not great and cost of entry was a bit high. Storage between the MB and Bambi was quite adequate and we put kayaks on top of the ML. Bambi only has a 21 gallon combo gray/black water holding tank so every 3 days you must take the rig to the dump station and empty. Gets to be a real pain on long trips. Was nice that we would drop the Bambi at the camp site and take off down any road/trail in the ML.
Roadtrek Agile - this rig was very nice - about 22MPG on the highway burning diesel. Storage is a bit on the lean side and there are many gravel forest service roads that you wouldn't dare take it down. But it was a fairly good solution - just missed running a vehicle like the Toyota FJ Cruiser/Jeep down the gravel and dirt roads seeking that illusive scene.
From the above you can see that I've tried quite a few alternatives. Being that I'm now 65 years I'm over the past primitive camping yet want to preserve as much of my savings as possible - hate wasting cash on fuel - I've never received a Xmas card from Saudi Arabia!
At this time in life, I'll will be taking 4-6 week trips with wife and our cat. Based out of Naples, FL and traveling all of USA and Canada is the plan. Three to four trips per year with 4 day weekend trips around Florida between the long adventures.
Would like to hear an update on how others are moving over the planet that have like agendas.
Jack
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Five years since I first posted on this thread. :o Even then, I was lusting after a Mercedes Sprinter. Turns out, I was right. I bought one sight unseen off eBay. ???
For me, it's the perfect vehicle for solo travelling and photographing. 25 mpusg at 70 mph and 30 mpusg if I baby it. I can easily do 600 miles on a tank of diesel - something that comes in very handy in the wide open spaces. Standup headroom in the rear can't be underestimated, nor can the fabulous view out that windshield. You're over six feet off the pavement. And, oh yes, often as not, you can sleep at the photo location. No motels, please. Ever again.
For a look at how the Sprinter performs as The Ultimate Camera Assistant, head over to:
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15640
*warning* Very picture-heavy posting on a Sprinter forum. Bandwidth hog. Two sets of pix, separated by other forum members' postings.
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It's a Scamp, a fiberglass "egg"shaped trailer. Much like your Airstream Bambi, except half the weight and price. I pull it over the Colorado Rockies (and more importantly, I control it on the downhills) with a Subaru Forester. That's good for 18 mpg towing at 60-70 mph on Interstates, and the car gets 25+ mpg unhitched. And it tows like a dream, with nary a white-knuckled moment in over 5000 miles. For me, that's great all-round performance. It's been a marriage-saver; my wife wants to camp again. We get out more and enjoy it better.
Up until a few months ago (sold to a friend) I owned a Boler, the trailer that the Scamp was based on. Mine was a 13' model, purchased originally by my family in 1972. My tow vehicle is total overkill for this trailer, a Dodge 2500 diesel. The truck is intended more for towing a horse trailer, and in that capacity it's much more than adequate.
Anyway, regarding the trailer... I towed it from Sacramento to Wisconsin and back last year, at typical speeds of 75 MPH on the interstates, and averaged 18 MPG. Same trip last month, same truck but without wife & trailer, 21.4 MPG. Something was wrong with that Ford.
The Boler was great on good roads. The truck hardly notices it, even my old Dakota pickup hardly notices the Boler, but rough roads were another story. I sold the trailer because it doesn't handle rough roads gracefully. I-80 over Donner Summit is rutted and cratered and the trailer requires significant repair after driving that route. Same story for washboarded dirt roads, which is where I tend to travel most often. I'll probably replace the trailer with something like a 4 Wheel truck camper, or the similar All Terrain camper. For now the bed of the truck with a cap suits me fine.
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We traveled to Fort Lauderdale, Sarasota and Tampa over the last week to inspect Airstream trailers as well as RoadTrek, Great West, Pleasure Way and Airstream Mercedes Sprinter based rigs.
The Sprinter based rigs have a distinct advantage in that:
1. Excellent mpg performance.
2. Always have your "house" with you as compared to the trailer is back at the camp site and you are ready for a meal, restroom or just a Nap after a long mornings hike.
3. Self contained with generator so you can dry camp anywhere.
4. Never have to un-hook and hook up to the tow vehicle.
5. I would be more comfortable with my wife driving it verse towing a trailer.
Trailer has a few advantages but the main one I can think of it you could have a much more agile vehicle to run down dirt roads with in the National and State forests.
As I'm ageing, the closer I can get to the scene I want to shoot via wheels, the better.
Now pondering the advantages of the 19.5' rig like the RoadTrek Agile verse the 22' Great West.
22' give you more storage and room BUT it seems like the 19.5 Agile would be more nimble at running down the dirt roads.
Anyone give this issue thought?
Jack
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I've been driving an FJ Cruiser for 5 years and I've never put premium gas in it, even though it is recommended. It runs just fine on the "cheap" stuff. Mine has a 3" lift with 33" BFG KM2's and a Maggiolina rooftop tent on the rack and I average 15 MPG. My trips aren't typically longer than 14 days but I thoroughly enjoy living out of the rooftop tent. On a 14 day trip I'll either get a cheap hotel room a couple nights (primarily for the shower) or I'll just buy a shower somewhere.
The advantages to traveling this way are better mileage, no restrictions on where you can drive the rig (the FJ is a beast and will go damn near anywhere you point it), less to worry about and just pure simplicity.
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Bought a new 2011 RoadTrek Agile for the aforesaid reasons.
At 65 years of age, I also like the idea that after driving to a remote site, hiking in the morning for several hours, I can come back to the trailhead and take a nap!
Don't have to return to a trailer at a distant park.
As to the tent idea, done that when I had hair on my head - now I want a bed off the ground to sleep in.
A time and a place for everything.
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Bought a new 2011 RoadTrek Agile for the aforesaid reasons.
At 65 years of age, I also like the idea that after driving to a remote site, hiking in the morning for several hours, I can come back to the trailhead and take a nap!
Don't have to return to a trailer at a distant park.
I've often have a short siesta in my car. I've never been questioned by anyone, plus, what are they going to say if you say that you were too tired to drive safely?
As to the tent idea, done that when I had hair on my head - now I want a bed off the ground to sleep in.
A time and a place for everything.
A hot shower at the end of the day is priceless. For everything else there's Mastercard.
Camping might be nice and remote but I hate the feeling of being all sweating and dirty from walking/climbing all day and going to bed like that, not to mention how you feel the morning after.