Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on January 13, 2018, 07:38:47 pm

Title: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 13, 2018, 07:38:47 pm
Am I the only one noticing that Sigma has slowed down a lot this past year?

Could they be working already on the next gen mirrorless bodies from Nikon (and possibly Canon)?

Wouldn’t it be great if the Z mount were open?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 14, 2018, 03:53:21 am
Hi,

I will not say they have been quite, they have released 5 lenses:

- Sigma 14mm ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/02/21/191/
- Sigma 135mm ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/03/17/177/
- Sigma 100-400 Contemporary: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/03/31/162/
- Sigma 24-70 ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/02/21/194/
- Sigma 16 mm Contemporary (for E and MTF mounts) - https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/11/09/1483/

Also this year Sigma CEO confirmed that they are developing FE lenses for Sony mirrorless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgqwFVbpzzQ . Rumors were pointing to a 2017 end of the year release, but now they are saying beginning 2018. Rumors say they are going to do the equivalentes of the ART series for mirrorless, that it will make sense.

I highly doubt the possible Z Nikon mount will be open. Neither Nikon nor Canon were interested in opening their mount to third party manufacturers,  I don't think they are going to start now.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 14, 2018, 10:48:15 pm
In addition to the 5 lenses above, they have released several cine lenses in the last year as well.  This entire line was released last year:
https://www.sigmaphoto.com/cinema-lenses

I'd say that's far from quiet ;)
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 01:09:27 am
I suspect Sigma is working on a number of mirrorless lenses - most likely adaptations or improvements on current Art-series lenses, with motor and other mechanical changes to optimise them for mirrorless cameras.

They will likely come out with E-mount versions first, but I doubt EF-M and Z-mount versions will be far behind, once it becomes clear exactly which mount Canon and Nikon will use for their full-frame mirrorless cameras.

This will be to Nikon's and Canon's advantage, since, although they will have very few mirrorless-optimised lenses initially (just like full-frame E-mount when it first launched) they may have a stable of Sigma mirrorless lenses available to fill the gap while they launch their own lenses, making Canon/Nikon mirrorless a viable option right from launch.

Of course, a lot would depend on exactly what lenses Sigma decides to start with - the staple 24-70 and 70-200mm f/2.8 zooms, or the slightly more niche fast primes.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 15, 2018, 01:49:31 am

They will likely come out with E-mount versions first, but I doubt EF-M and Z-mount versions will be far behind, once it becomes clear exactly which mount Canon and Nikon will use for their full-frame mirrorless cameras.

This will be to Nikon's and Canon's advantage, since, although they will have very few mirrorless-optimised lenses initially (just like full-frame E-mount when it first launched) they may have a stable of Sigma mirrorless lenses available to fill the gap while they launch their own lenses, making Canon/Nikon mirrorless a viable option right from launch.

Yes, if the rumor about the Z mount turns to be true with those dimensions, any FE lens design will work on the Z mount system, it  only needs to change the mount (a bit larger and wider) and electronics... the optical design will be the same.



Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 15, 2018, 04:34:09 am
Looks like the first annoucement of the FF mirrorless line of Sigma lenses for both Sony and Nikon could be in March: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sigma-rumored-launch-new-ff-lenses-sony-fe-nikon-new-ff-mirrorless-cameras/
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 08:33:43 am
Looks like the first annoucement of the FF mirrorless line of Sigma lenses for both Sony and Nikon could be in March: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sigma-rumored-launch-new-ff-lenses-sony-fe-nikon-new-ff-mirrorless-cameras/

The stars are starting to align nicely.

It is sometimes surprising how simple common sense can go a long way predicting the future. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rob C on January 15, 2018, 09:11:40 am
The stars are starting to align nicely.

It is sometimes surprising how simple common sense can go a long way predicting the future. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

It will never beat a crystal ball.

Rob
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: NancyP on January 15, 2018, 02:01:24 pm
Next best thing to crystal ball:
https://www.cameraquest.com/hyper.htm
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rado on January 15, 2018, 02:32:39 pm
Do all autofocus mirrorless lenses use focus by wire? It's a great irony that together with EVFs which finally allow you to manually focus wide open at f1.4 we also get this awful detached focusing system, unless you choose to use manual lenses.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 02:50:07 pm
Yes, if the rumor about the Z mount turns to be true with those dimensions, any FE lens design will work on the Z mount system, it  only needs to change the mount (a bit larger and wider) and electronics... the optical design will be the same.



Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk

The optical design may also be the same as current Sigma lenses. They'd just need a bit of extra empty space behind the rear element.

I just hope Sigma does the sensible thing and releases automatic lens correction profiles for C1, Photoshop, DxO and all the other common processing software out there. The lack of readily-available automatic corrections, to completely eliminate CA and distortion, is probably the greatest current weakness of Sigma gear.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 15, 2018, 05:19:50 pm
Do all autofocus mirrorless lenses use focus by wire? It's a great irony that together with EVFs which finally allow you to manually focus wide open at f1.4 we also get this awful detached focusing system, unless you choose to use manual lenses.

It is not mandatory. But it has some advantages for the manufacturer.

- The design is simpler, you don't need to connect rotating physical elements, so you can make the lens more compact.
- It is also simpler for them since they are all using linear motors. Typically, mirrorless lenses with both Phase Detect and Contrast AF use a hybrid focusing system. The phase detect puts the lens very quick into the nearly optimal position and the contrast AF fine tunes it with very quick back and forth movements, to get a very precise focus. This is done very very quickly. Typical helicoid mounts in manual lenses are very quick when they are moving in one direction, but this last step of moving quickly back and forth it is much faster with linear systems like the mirrorless use, but more difficult to make a mechanical manual focus system.

Saying that. The focus by wire system have progress a lot in the last years. I hate it on my Panasonic 20 f1.7 MTF lens. In my Sony 24-70 GM lens is quite good, it is completely linear the movement. Sony even improved it much more with the Sony 12-24 G that I bought one month ago. With that I don't fill the difference with my manual lenses.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 15, 2018, 05:27:00 pm
The optical design may also be the same as current Sigma lenses. They'd just need a bit of extra empty space behind the rear element.

I just hope Sigma does the sensible thing and releases automatic lens correction profiles for C1, Photoshop, DxO and all the other common processing software out there. The lack of readily-available automatic corrections, to completely eliminate CA and distortion, is probably the greatest current weakness of Sigma gear.

Since the E mount is open (after agreeing with Sony NDA), they could add the profile to the lens and do in-camera correction. Anyway, I will be surprise if Phase One or Adobe do not create after a while lens profiles for those lenses, they are doing it for nearly all lenses in the market now. Just some less know manufacturer is missing.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 15, 2018, 05:28:13 pm
Next best thing to crystal ball:
https://www.cameraquest.com/hyper.htm

No idea about this lenses... I would love to see that star fan in action :)
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 06:07:25 pm
I’ll further with my guessing and say that Nikon and Sigma lenses will not be real competitors in the mirrorless world.

Sigma is going to commonalize their designs for E and Z mounts meaning they will be f1.4 primes and f2.8 zooms.

Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 06:38:42 pm
I’ll further with my guessing and say that Nikon and Sigma lenses will not be real competitors in the mirrorless world.

Sigma is going to commonalize their designs for E and Z mounts meaning they will be f1.4 primes and f2.8 zooms.

Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.

Cheers,
Bernard

Why would they release more f/1.0 and f/1.2 primes? Not only are they big, heavy and physically slow, they also tend to have a lot more optical problems than the more typical f/1.4 and f/1.8 lenses (and, when stopped down to f/1.4, will then have a non-roind aperture). And the very widest apertures tend to have very limitee utility anyway, due to the extremely thin DOF.

Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of the 'Nikon does everything better' crowd more than anything else. They can't bypass optical limits any more than Leica or Zeiss can - the Summicron (f/1.8-f/2) lenses are sharper than the Summilux (f/1.4), which are much sharper than the Noctilux. And Canon's f/1.2 lenses are also among their softest lenses.

Basically, f/1.2-and-wider lenses are specialised lenses for a specific purpose other than sharpness, not something for general use.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 07:30:01 pm
Well, you were 100% sure that Nikon would never start mirrorless with a FF body, were you not?

You were also sure that Sony would release their next gen high res sensor as an a7rIII.

And you were very negative about the ability of Nikon to release a competitive successor to the D810.

...

I am really not sure I would buy these lenses, but the rationale for thinking Nikon might release them is:
- https://petapixel.com/2017/09/07/nikon-patents-2-full-frame-mirrorless-lenses-52mm-f0-9-36mm-f1-2/
- the need for them to differentiate themselves. Lenses is the only area where they could do this in a meaningful way and I don't think that an 50mm f1.4 will help achieve this.
- the specs of the mount that has obviously been designed to accomodate very bright glass
- the confidence that the AF of these mirrorless bodies will be able to manage such shallow DoF
- years of frustration among Nikon's engineers about the limitations resulting from the F mount

Besides, Nikon has been doing everything they tried better for years now. This isn't wishful thinking, it is just looking at facts. Now, some of their product planning has been way off, no doubt, but their
engineering is best in class.

Thinking that they will extend their leadership to mirrorless is just common sense, but I agree we will see once the products hit the shelves.

The Sony offering will remain brilliant, shouldn't all photographers be happy about having better options? I would hope Canon to surprise us even more.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 10:08:40 pm
Well, you were 100% sure that Nikon would never start mirrorless with a FF body, were you not?

You were also sure that Sony would release their next gen high res sensor as an a7rIII.

And you were very negative about the ability of Nikon to release a competitive successor to the D810

You're conflating me with other people.

I said they'd start either with a non-action, high-res body (similar to A7r2 or D810), or a crop body, rather than an action-focused, A9-type high-speed body. So far, Nikon hasn't said what they're bringing out - all they have is a lens mount capable of taking a full-frame sensor, with no indication as to the actual specs of the camera.

I never said anything about the A7r3 being a high-resolution body - I see little point speculating about nomenclature, merely capabilities. And Sony did exactly what I said they would in bringing out an in-between, 'balanced' type body, directly opposite the D850 (this was before any A7r3 specs were actually announced). They haven't brought out a high-resolution body yet, but we know for a fact that they have them in testing/prototype.

Nikon hasn't released a D810 successor, in the sense of a super-high-resolution, studio/non-action oriented camera aimed at pure image quality, with no compromises for speed. They've released a super-D750 - does everything well, being much more capable than the D750 at everything, yet not specialising in anything. A real D810 successor would be 60-70MP and probably 5fps or so. The only commonality between the D810 and D850 is the number '8' in front of the model number. And names are pretty much meaningless (which is why I don't bother speculating on nomenclature) - the 5D3 was a completely different kind of camera to the 5D2, and the D800 completely different from the D700.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 10:50:07 pm
I am certainly not confusing you with somebody else. I have a very vivid recollection of the various opinions you expressed these past months. ;)

Anyway, we'll know soon enough whose crystal ball was better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 11:00:49 pm
I am certainly not confusing you with somebody else. I have a very vivid recollection of the various opinions you expressed these past months. ;)

Anyway, we'll know soon enough whose crystal ball was better.

Cheers,
Bernard

Quotes, please.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 11:02:46 pm
Quotes, please.

I would like to have the time to search your posts, but I don't... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Two23 on January 15, 2018, 11:34:21 pm
I
Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.



In the recent past, Nikon has struggled to even match the Sigma ART, let alone surpass it.  Two of my four most used lenses are now Sigma.  The only reason my 24mm is a Nikon is that Sigma has not made a t/s lens.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 15, 2018, 11:42:43 pm

In the recent past, Nikon has struggled to even match the Sigma ART, let alone surpass it.  Two of my four most used lenses are now Sigma.  The only reason my 24mm is a Nikon is that Sigma has not made a t/s lens.


Kent in SD

Their UWAs have also struggled/are outdated, and some other lenses (e.g. 80-400) were weak from the outset.

They've released some outstanding lenses, but also some relative lemons, which Nikon proponents tend to ignore.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 11:47:47 pm
Their UWAs have also struggled/are outdated, and some other lenses (e.g. 80-400) were weak from the outset.

They've released some outstanding lenses, but also some relative lemons, which Nikon proponents tend to ignore.

Like what exactly?

There are clearly lenses in need for replacement in the line-up of Nikon, that's obvious. But I cannot think of any recent release that isn't best in class or very close to best in class, especially in the high end.

- The super tele lenses
- The 70-200 f2.8 E FL
- The 24-70 f2.8 VR (the Sigma is pretty close 2 years later)
- The 19mm T/S
- The 105mm f1.4
- The 28mm f1.4
- The line up of f1.8 penses, some better than other but none weak.

Now, speaking of relevant topics, the key question moving forward will be how Nikon manages another mount and the related lenses.

As I have written above, I believe that they may have smartly managed competing head to head vs Sigma, but they will still have quite a few new lenses to roll out in a short amount of time if they don't want to look like a Leica SL knock off... (6 lenses announced in 27 months... 3 available).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 16, 2018, 01:27:43 am
Like what exactly?

There are clearly lenses in need for replacement in the line-up of Nikon, that's obvious. But I cannot think of any recent release that isn't best in class or very close to best in class, especially in the high end.

- The super tele lenses
- The 70-200 f2.8 E FL
- The 24-70 f2.8 VR (the Sigma is pretty close 2 years later)
- The 19mm T/S
- The 105mm f1.4
- The 28mm f1.4
- The line up of f1.8 penses, some better than other but none weak.

Cheers,
Bernard

The superteles are also several years newer than the Canon superteles. They keep leapfrogging each other. Of particular note, the 200-400 is the only supertele that's not significantly newer than the Canon equivalent, and the only one that performs significantly worse. I'd expect the new 180-400 to soundly beat the Canon (being 8 years newer) and any new Canon superteles to beat the current Nikons. Technology tends to move like that.

The 80-400 is significantly worse than the Canon and Sony 100-400s. There's an excuse for losing to the Sony, which was a 2017 release (and is even better than the Canon, and sharper even than the Canon 200-400) but not the Canon, which was released at roughly the same time.

The 24-70 VR is probably a wash with the Canon, despite being much newer. Weaker centre, but sharper peripheries and has VR.

The 24-120 is a poor cousin to Canon's 24-105, whether you're comparing it to the old (older than the Nikon) or new version.

The 105mm f/1.4 is great, but is it actually materially better than the Sigma 85/1.4 and 135/1.8 lenses, both of which are significantly cheaper?

Regarding UWAs, they have nothing that comes close to competing with the Canon and Sony 16-35 f/2.8 lenses, or the 11/12-24mm f/4 lenses. The 14-24 was good in its time, but is now 10 years old and really showing its age next to the othera. As for primes, nothing out there really comes close to the Sigma 14/1.8.

As for the 28 f/1.4, it's up against the Otus, and loses. Not that I would hold it against any lens for losing to an Otus. It also isn't as sharp as the Canon 35mm f/1.4, but is wider. It isn't an easy lens to compare, since no-one else has really targeted the 28mm category, and both 24mm amd 35mm are substantially different in both appearance and application.

Basically, Nikon has some spectacular lenses, but also some glaring holes. Canon's lens lineup is probably more complete, with no real holes where performance is unacceptable for the present time, although the lineup is, on the whole, a bit older than Nikon's (UWAs excepted). Sony is really just getting started, but what they've brought out at the high end has mostly been spectacular, the 70-200 f/2.8 notwithstanding (pity it happens to be a key lens - a weak 180mm macro, for instance, is much more forgivable than a weak 70-200 f/2.8). There's been nothing particularly special about Nikon's lenses over the years - on the whole, comparing Nikon and Canon lenses, whoever has the newer lens will have the better lens at that point in time, although there are exceptions on both sides.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 16, 2018, 01:54:32 am
As for the 28 f/1.4, it's up against the Otus, and loses. Not that I would hold it against any lens for losing to an Otus. It also isn't as sharp as the Canon 35mm f/1.4, but is wider. It isn't an easy lens to compare, since no-one else has really targeted the 28mm category, and both 24mm amd 35mm are substantially different in both appearance and application.

I used to own the Otus and sold in in favour of the Nikon that is:
- very close optically
- twice cheaper
- much smaller
- AF
- weather sealed

Overall the Nikon is the better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 17, 2018, 01:13:49 am
I used to own the Otus and sold in in favour of the Nikon that is:
- very close optically
- twice cheaper
- much smaller
- AF
- weather sealed

Overall the Nikon is the better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

If I had any use for a 28mm lens, I'd take the Otus any day. The microcontrast is just incredible. But anything I shoot with a 28mm lens is unlikely to be moving.

Basically, the vast majority of lens categories Nikon leads in are  also the ones where Nikon has the newest lens. And the vast majority of categories Canon leads in are the ones where Canon has the newer lens. Neither company has an advantage in lens design - in most cases, the lens advantage comes down to the age of the design rather than who designed it. But Nikon's UWAs are so long in the tooth now that they have a glaring performance hole in their lineup, where their lenses are no longer keeping up with current bodies, whereas Canon has no such hole.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 17, 2018, 01:14:20 am
I would like to have the time to search your posts, but I don't... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

That's because you won't find any.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 17, 2018, 01:17:26 am
If I had any use for a 28mm lens, I'd take the Otus any day. The microcontrast is just incredible. But anything I shoot with a 28mm lens is unlikely to be moving.

Do you have first hand experience shooting with the Nikon 28mm f1.4?

I have used both lenses myself for real world shooting and they are real close. I would not have sold the Otus at a significant loss otherwise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 17, 2018, 01:26:25 am
Do you have first hand experience shooting with the Nikon 28mm f1.4?

I have used both lenses myself for real world shooting and they are real close. I would not have sold the Otus at a significant loss otherwise.

Cheers,
Bernard

No, but I've seen the output side-by-side. Pretty much equally sharp, but more microcontrast on the Otus.

Few things shot at 28mm require autofocus.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 17, 2018, 06:57:56 am
Few things shot at 28mm require autofocus.

AF speed isn't very important, but I found it challenging to focus the Otus 28mm accurately on the D810. It wouldn't be an issue with a mirrorless camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: RobertJ on January 17, 2018, 09:02:52 am
I suspect Sigma is working on a number of mirrorless lenses - most likely adaptations or improvements on current Art-series lenses

The rumor is that these mirrorless Sigma lenses will be completely redesigned.  In fact, the rumor is that the first lens will be a 35mm 1.2, instead of 1.4, but nobody knows anything for sure.  I'm personally hoping Voigtlander makes more APO lenses for Sony, and Zeiss keeps bringing out the Loxias.  Love the 65mm APO, Loxia 85mm, Loxia 21mm, and will order the rumored Loxia 25mm 2.4, LOL.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 18, 2018, 06:30:39 am
AF speed isn't very important, but I found it challenging to focus the Otus 28mm accurately on the D810. It wouldn't be an issue with a mirrorless camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Fair enough.

Outside of wildlife and long telephoto use, I don't think I've used an eye-level viewfinder in years. All my landscapes are done via live view on the rear LCD.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 18, 2018, 08:36:15 am
Ok, rumours are heating up... Looks like Sigma in China is implying to expect the announcement of several FE lenses by the end of Febraury: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sigma-confirms-many-new-products-will-launched-cp/ (ready to show them in CP+)
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 19, 2018, 11:31:42 am
So... maybe the working theory is that Sigma knows that Canon is going to release soon a FF mirrorless and for that reason they are doing mirrorless lenses now: http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-sends-invites-to-dealers-for-major-mirrorless-presentation-next-month/

Sorry... I couldn't resist making the comment :)
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 19, 2018, 04:35:59 pm
This would be amazing news... except for Sony perhaps. ;)

All 3 major manufacturers starting from a blank page with total design freedom.

If isn’t a great opportunity to see a clear winner there is never going to be one.

As far as I am concerned I consider this a new start and existing lenses will only be a minor factor.

I’ll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)

I will not consider video performance.

I’ll probably wait 6 months after availability to test and compare. I may test buy the most promising body to validate its value in real world situations before committing to a mount.

For now Sony is my top contender but if the Z mount rumors are true it appears to have better potential. Canon has not let any leak out so we don’t know what they are up to. I pray for a 1Ds like announcement...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 19, 2018, 05:16:26 pm

I’ll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)



Canon and Nikon could offer the best in all that but I highly doubt in openness... I’m sure they release adapters for their lenses but the electronics will not be open, even under NDA like in the case of E mount.



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 19, 2018, 05:37:39 pm
Canon and Nikon could offer the best in all that but I highly doubt in openness... I’m sure they release adapters for their lenses but the electronics will not be open, even under NDA like in the case of E mount.

We will see. Both Nikon and Canon have a huge amount of confidence in their lens design and manufacturing abilities, they may think they can win even with an open mount.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: D White on January 20, 2018, 03:59:25 pm
The bottom line is that the "best" full frame system will always be a moving target as the major players continue to leapfrog each other in a lens here and a body there. There are fewer outright dogs any more with almost any lens in the last few years. To that add diminishing returns on improving specific lenses; it would be hard to see much room for improvement over my Canon 300f2.8 II, 400f2.8 II, and 600f4 II and I will likely pass on any upgrades in this area this time around. How much better can they get?

What may matter more fundamentally is the mount adopted for the lens system. Canon did the heavy lifting decades ago with the change to EF, and as such likely will have more and easier options for full frame mirrorless. Nikon is likely forced into a more radical change of their mount, but even so I am sure they have thought of a great and seamless adapter to bridge old to new.

As for Sigma, they have provided almost overnight a wonderful competing selection that in a number of cases surpasses the main players. As a Canon user, but not a dogmatic Canon user, I have recently replaced my Canon 85f1.2 and 135f2 with the Sigma art 85f1.4 and 135f1.8. These greatly surpassed the performance and feel of the Canons I replaced, and I am not sorry I did not wait for the Canon 85f1.4. I would have even picked these two over the Nikon 105f1.4, (yes I tried one just for fun). I also added the Sigma 14f1.8, for which there is nothing else that even comes close in anyones camp. I wish more of the Canon and Nikon lenses felt as well put together as the Sigma art!
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 20, 2018, 06:43:01 pm
This would be amazing news... except for Sony perhaps. ;)

All 3 major manufacturers starting from a blank page with total design freedom.

If isn’t a great opportunity to see a clear winner there is never going to be one.

As far as I am concerned I consider this a new start and existing lenses will only be a minor factor.

I’ll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)

I will not consider video performance.

I’ll probably wait 6 months after availability to test and compare. I may test buy the most promising body to validate its value in real world situations before committing to a mount.

For now Sony is my top contender but if the Z mount rumors are true it appears to have better potential. Canon has not let any leak out so we don’t know what they are up to. I pray for a 1Ds like announcement...

Cheers,
Bernard

There is so little info on the Nikon mirrorless system...how can you even say it has better potential? What in the little info gives you this potential?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 20, 2018, 06:44:31 pm
We will see. Both Nikon and Canon have a huge amount of confidence in their lens design and manufacturing abilities, they may think they can win even with an open mount.

Cheers,
Bernard

Why would they open now when they were closed before?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 20, 2018, 11:24:13 pm
Why would they open now when they were closed before?

Because the world is changing around them?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 21, 2018, 09:19:54 am
Because the world is changing around them?

Cheers,
Bernard

Really...how so? And why for mirrorless and not DSLR? I don't see it.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 21, 2018, 12:38:59 pm
Really...how so? And why for mirrorless and not DSLR? I don't see it.

- openess is now an important decision criteria in many areas, including photographic systems
- Sony E mount is open and happens to be the reference in mirrorless
- for the first time in many years Canikon will have a much smaller lens lineup compared to competition (Sony E mount lenses) and their #1 issue is going to be the credibility of the mount in terms of available lenses. It will be in their own interest to have third party lenses available quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Chris Livsey on January 21, 2018, 02:56:19 pm
It will be in their own interest to have third party lenses available quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard

Or provide effective and inexpensive adapters for their own legacy lenses, they both have a reasonable number out there  ;) , that would also have the benefit of attracting more of their current user base. Hasselblad have done this with the HC series on the X1-D although with limitations due to camera firmware and legacy lens chips which are not sufficient for the task.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 21, 2018, 03:01:00 pm
Yes, of course, adapters are a given but...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 21, 2018, 06:06:24 pm
- openess is now an important decision criteria in many areas, including photographic systems
- Sony E mount is open and happens to be the reference in mirrorless
- for the first time in many years Canikon will have a much smaller lens lineup compared to competition (Sony E mount lenses) and their #1 issue is going to be the credibility of the mount in terms of available lenses. It will be in their own interest to have third party lenses available quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't buy it. Canikon will come out with an adapter for their existing lenses and slowly fill the new mount as need be. I don't see them selling out their cash cow anytime soon. If they did not do it for the DSLR lenses...I don't believe they'll do it for their mirrorless lenses...they make too much moola off their lenses.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 21, 2018, 06:08:32 pm
It will be in their own interest to have third party lenses available quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard

Really? Why is that? Why can't they just promote their existing lenses adapted to their mirrorless camera? What exactly does Canikon have to gain by getting the market flooded with cheaper third party lenses that are just as good as their own?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 21, 2018, 06:08:52 pm
Yes, of course, adapters are a given but...

Cheers,
Bernard

But what?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 22, 2018, 11:12:48 am
So, we are just one month away... but it looks like there will be several FE lenses from Sigma at CP+ (probably they are going to be released slowly during the year).

Also Sigma is not forgetting DSLR, two 70-200 One f2.8 art other one contemporary F4 both for Canon and Nikon.

But let’s see... it is just rumors at the moment.

Source: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-source-confirms-sigma-will-announce-multiple-fe-lenses-cp-show/


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BJL on January 22, 2018, 09:41:45 pm
Well, you were 100% sure that Nikon would never start mirrorless with a FF body, were you not?
And do we know otherwise yet? All I have read is a rumor that Nikon's next mirrorless mount is wide enough to work with 35mm format as well as "APS-C" format, and if that is true, then Nikon is probably planning to have 35mm format mirrorless cameras at some stage—but no sign yet that it will start in that format. Note that both Sony and Canon entered the mirrorless market with "APS-C" format cameras using a lens mount that can also handle 35mm format.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 22, 2018, 10:57:47 pm
We’ll know in one month.

My bet is firmly on FF. The time to release lukewarm products is long gone IMHO. Nikon sees itself as the top dog in photography, their strategy in mirrorless can only aim for the top.

But we’ll know in one month.

If Nikon goes DX, I will have no problem to acknowledge I was wrong... and will start to investigate Sony and Canon very seriously. ;)

My view is that Nikon should’t release a DX mirrorless line up at all. They can release a low end FX body at a price point very close to that of a Sony a6500 and anything below that will soon be competing with smartphones anyway.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 23, 2018, 12:09:40 pm
Hi,

For me full-frame makes more sense than DX, margins are bigger, you earn more money selling less units. Main reason Sony is focusing on it and nearly forgetting releasing lens for E system instead of FE. The same reason Fuji went to Medium-Format mirrorless, you sell less units, but make much more money per unit.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 23, 2018, 02:03:30 pm
Hi,

For me full-frame makes more sense than DX, margins are bigger, you earn more money selling less units. Main reason Sony is focusing on it and nearly forgetting releasing lens for E system instead of FE. The same reason Fuji went to Medium-Format mirrorless, you sell less units, but make much more money per unit.

Regards,

David

It would be interesting where the GFX comes in as far as revenue generation for Fuji. It's definitely a niche camera that is out of the price range for the vast majority of people.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BJL on January 23, 2018, 10:58:24 pm
Hi,

For me full-frame makes more sense than DX, margins are bigger, you earn more money selling less units. Main reason Sony is focusing on it and nearly forgetting releasing lens for E system instead of FE. The same reason Fuji went to Medium-Format mirrorless, you sell less units, but make much more money per unit.

Regards,

David
Are you arguing that Nikon will offer _only_ 36x24 format, with no mass market 26x16 option? I would be very surprised if it does not offer both eventually, but maybe starting with the higher volume 24x26 format mostnofbwhose customers can be satisfied with a smaller initial range of lenses. Note that every maker of 36x24 gear also has a smaller format, even Leica. That also goes for the Fujifilm example: it has a 26x16 system, and launched it first, as did Sony and as has Canon.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 24, 2018, 01:25:49 am
Are you arguing that Nikon will offer _only_ 36x24 format, with no mass market 26x16 option? I would be very surprised if it does not offer both eventually, but maybe starting with the higher volume 24x26 format mostnofbwhose customers can be satisfied with a smaller initial range of lenses. Note that every maker of 36x24 gear also has a smaller format, even Leica. That also goes for the Fujifilm example: it has a 26x16 system, and launched it first, as did Sony and as has Canon.

Nikon has to focus on the right priorities. The right priority is the development of the best lenses line up for their new mirrorless offering.

Having to release 2 sets of lenses isn't compatible IMHO.

Besides, they have been doing all they could for years to migrate their APS-C users to full frame bodies. This is clearly proven by their DX lens release track record that is nothing short of abysmal... by design.

I am not sure why we think that they should dig themselves once more in a similar hole with 2 lenses line ups in the mirrorless world.

We now know for a fact that a large majority of customers with an investment in a given lens line never migrate upwards.

We also know from Nikon's own corporate communication that they want to focus on higher end higher profit margin products...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on January 24, 2018, 02:25:49 am
Are you arguing that Nikon will offer _only_ 36x24 format, with no mass market 26x16 option? I would be very surprised if it does not offer both eventually, but maybe starting with the higher volume 24x26 format mostnofbwhose customers can be satisfied with a smaller initial range of lenses. Note that every maker of 36x24 gear also has a smaller format, even Leica. That also goes for the Fujifilm example: it has a 26x16 system, and launched it first, as did Sony and as has Canon.

For Sony, Fuji and Canon was different times... first E-mount camera was released on 2011, beginning of 2012 Fuji release the X mount system, and un June Canon the first EOS-M system.

2012 was the last year of growth of camera sales, coming from 2006 were the market was growing year after year in double digits in camera sales... and the bigger sales were in low-end, middle level bodies... that’s why Canon and Sony focused at the beginning in low level bodies and lenses... they were expecting to sell lots of units and make the money.

But look how the market it is now a days, all manufacturers are focusing in the high-end bodies, since they are selling less cameras, those are the ones that give the benefits. Sigma release the ART series of lenses and focuses on quality, Olympus it’s OMD series forgetting a bit the PEN series, Panasonic puts its money on the GH video series of cameras, Sony moves to full frame mirrorless, Fuji to GFX... Nikon remembers that they had a high end series of DX cameras and releases the d500 for wildlife photographers and so on...

The camera market is focusing in the high end part... eventually, they maybe release a DX mirrorless system... but I don’t see it right now.

Anyway... I’m always wrong on my predictions... that it is way I work as computer systems engineer and not as market analyst.


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 24, 2018, 11:53:26 am
Canon already has a "small" sensor competent MILC system, with the M series. So they are in a better starting point compared to Nikon, because they can focus on FF MILC. The question for Canon (and Nikon) is whether they can convince the huge number of "low level DSLR" users (aka Rebel like) to spend their money on a low level MILC system.

Judging by how many Rebel - like both companies sell, it will be a challenge... so there is a challenge at the low end, and a challenge at the high end: convincing enthusiasts and pros that their new FF MILC are on par with existing DSLR.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 24, 2018, 12:51:38 pm
and a challenge at the high end: convincing enthusiasts and pros that their new FF MILC are on par with existing DSLR.

IMHO, the easiest way to do that is to propose lenses unheard of in the DSLR world.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 24, 2018, 06:10:51 pm
IMHO, the easiest way to do that is to propose lenses unheard of in the DSLR world.

Cheers,
Bernard

Then what message are you sending to the tried and true DSLR base...soiuanora?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 25, 2018, 12:10:18 am
Then what message are you sending to the tried and true DSLR base...soiuanora?

No, the message is “come join us and enjoy the lenses we could never design for F mount”.

Why would Nikon be only attempting to copy Sony? What would be the value of releasing an a7r3 clone together with me too lenses?

Has Nikon been a follower in the DSLR world? The answer is no, for years they have been trying to open new segments on top of Canon. Why would it be surprising that they try to do the same in the mirrorless world?

In my view, there are 3 reasons why it is only happening now:
- they felt the techno was not ready (evf, batteries,...)
- they had not yet understood that not canibalizing themselves their DSLR with their own best technology would let Sony do it
- they were fixing issues that Sony had already somehow fixed

It appears will soon be addressed.

You appear not to be too positive about the prospect that Nikon’s mirrorless system may outdo Sony. Why so?

As a photographer I am super glad to have the option to get access to Sony’s great techno but can only hope that Canon and Nikon do even better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 25, 2018, 05:03:57 am
IMHO, the easiest way to do that is to propose lenses unheard of in the DSLR world.

Cheers,
Bernard

Indeed, and in that regard the shorter registration distance opens up new possibilities: one example is reducing the footprint of DSLR lenses, e.g. Zeiss Distagon 21 f2.8 > Zeiss Loxia 21 f2.8. Or coming up with new lenses, like the Laowa 15 f2.

But on the DSLR side, new possibilities are far from dead: look at Canon's recent TSE lenses with 1/2 macro capabilities like 50mm and 135mm.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BJL on January 25, 2018, 08:50:17 am
Perhaps we need a new thread to discuss this apparently popular but to me nonsensical idea that Nikon (or anyone) should completely ignore the mainstream "APS-C" format with its next attempt at mirrorless cameras, and offer _only_ 36x24mm format.  The claim that "higher margins on lower unit sales will be more profitable than higher volume at lower margins" is not only offered without any supporting evidence, but is anyway rather irrelevant: so long as both formats are adequately profitable, the best business strategy is clearly to pursue both of them.

Despite some persistent expectations of 36x24mm format taking over the ILC mainstream, its price of entry remains far higher than for the smaller formats (about three or four times higher for the base models in the respective formats) so combined with IQ from the smaller formats that is highly satisfactory to a lot of actual ILC users (as opposed to forum-dwelling bokeh worshippers) a lot of customers are going to choose a smaller format, and so would be lost to rivals like Olympus, Sony, Canon, Panasonic or Fujifilm if Nikon were to offer _only_ 36x24 format. And some of those lost customers will later get more ambitious in their gear purchases, and when they do, a lot will probably stay with the same system, especially if any cravings for 36x24mm format are met by that (non-Nikon) system.

So the big question is, are the mainstream formats adequately profitable? ILC camera makers continue to offer more new camera models in those formats than in 36x24, so I would say that they are, and promise a good ROI for mirrorless offerings from Nikon.


P. S. to repeat, i also expect Nikon to offer 36x24mm format mirrorless cameras and hgih quality native lenses for them at some stage, and to offer SLR lens adaptors which give results that are OK but not as good as with "native" lenses. The only question for me is about timing.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on January 25, 2018, 09:09:05 am
No, the message is “come join us and enjoy the lenses we could never design for F mount”.

Why would Nikon be only attempting to copy Sony? What would be the value of releasing an a7r3 clone together with me too lenses?

Has Nikon been a follower in the DSLR world? The answer is no, for years they have been trying to open new segments on top of Canon. Why would it be surprising that they try to do the same in the mirrorless world?

In my view, there are 3 reasons why it is only happening now:
- they felt the techno was not ready (evf, batteries,...)
- they had not yet understood that not canibalizing themselves their DSLR with their own best technology would let Sony do it
- they were fixing issues that Sony had already somehow fixed

It appears will soon be addressed.

You appear not to be too positive about the prospect that Nikon’s mirrorless system may outdo Sony. Why so?

As a photographer I am super glad to have the option to get access to Sony’s great techno but can only hope that Canon and Nikon do even better.

Cheers,
Bernard

Supertramp -- Dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 25, 2018, 09:37:15 am
Supertramp -- Dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer.

Lovely song!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 28, 2018, 05:21:03 am
IMHO, the easiest way to do that is to propose lenses unheard of in the DSLR world.

Cheers,
Bernard

How will this actually help them?

Canon/Nikon/Sony/Zeiss/Sigma can design all the niche lenses they want, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of photos by most photographers is taken using the same few lenses. The exact lenses may vary, but very few people maintain a large collection of lenses and actually use all of them on a regular basis.

For instance, a wedding photographer may live on the 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8, as well as a fast prime of some sort (85/1.4, 105/1.4, possibly 200/2) while a (non-studio) portrait photographer might primarily use the 35/85/135mm prime combination. A wildlife photographer might use a 500/4 and 200-400/4, while someone photographing property might primarily use a 12-24 zoom and 17/19/24mm tilt-shift. Someone who shoots a bit of everything might have a wider collection of lenses, but, for any one purpose, is likely to be using the same few lenses.

The point is, once a manufacturer has the bases covered, introducing more, niche lenses is not going to win them much more market share, or attract new users outside of that niche. You can do all sorts of things with optics, but there's a reason certain types of lenses are popular, while others are rarely-used - Nikon is hardly going to win many more users if they introduce a super-fisheye with a 220-degree FOV, or a 1-10x 'super macro'-type lens. Nor is introducing more lenses that pretty much do the same job - once you have a 'no holds barred' option and a 'budget' option, you don't really need much more in that category. Rather, it is the quality of lenses covering key capabilities that wins users, and that's something that all the major manufacturers can do relatively well.

With regards to the smaller flange distance allowing for a greater range of wide-angle designs, that's only true to a limited extent, and largely only for lower-end lenses more concerned with small size than optical performance. Digital sensors and their microlenses function best with angles of incident light that don't deviate too far from the perpendicular. Even if they didn't, a greater angle of incidence (away from the perpendicular) results in greater vignetting and greater chromatic aberration. So, the smaller flange distance may allow for some smaller, low-end wide-angle lenses, but the high-end ones will still need to have a retrofocus design. Sure, you can put the rear element closer to the sensor than you can on an SLR (this goes for all lenses, not just telephotos) but this represents a mere reshaping of a few elements to move the focal plane closer to the rear element, not a radical change in design (such as a Z-shift or curved sensor might allow), and isn't a significant saving in size or weight. Significantly reducing the size of lenses is going to require a revolution in optics, not a minor change in flange distance or mere evolutionary change in optical design or manufacturing precision - something which Canon, if anyone, has the lead in, with their advancements in diffractive optics.

As for the future of APS-C, that's an interesting and completely different tangent worthy of its own thread...
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 29, 2018, 02:45:32 am
I see Nikon attempting to differentiate themselves lenswise in terms of:
- very bright designs (f0.9, f1.2) and very compact designs (2 lens line-ups)
- utmost optical quality (Otus+ at f1.4)
- AF speed even for very bright lenses (the 2 motors patent)
- best looking physical design
- ruggedness (today an Otus mostly stays at home when the going gets tough)

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: scooby70 on January 29, 2018, 03:46:23 pm
I see Nikon attempting to differentiate themselves lenswise in terms of:
- very bright designs (f0.9, f1.2) and very compact designs (2 lens line-ups)
- utmost optical quality (Otus+ at f1.4)
- AF speed even for very bright lenses (the 2 motors patent)
- best looking physical design
- ruggedness (today an Otus mostly stays at home when the going gets tough)

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think the chance of you're list coming true is next to impossible but Otus + quality and ruggedness and the best looking do look particularly unlikely to combine.

Time will tell I suppose but I think you're heading for multiple disappointments and sorry to say this but with that list of hopes verging on fanboyism.   
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 29, 2018, 05:34:47 pm
I think the chance of you're list coming true is next to impossible but Otus + quality and ruggedness and the best looking do look particularly unlikely to combine.

Time will tell I suppose but I think you're heading for multiple disappointments and sorry to say this but with that list of hopes verging on fanboyism.   

The Otus-quality-at-Nikon-price looks especially unlikely, as do the super-fast lenses. Super-fast lenses for mirrorless won't be any sharper or smaller than similar lenses for SLRs, which often don't perform as well as their slower f/1.4-f/1.8 counterparts. And, with improving high-ISO performance and the limited utility of such narrow depth of field, there just isn't much demand for them outside of a few well-heeled enthusiasts - certainly no professional demand.

Most of all, none of these things are unique to Nikon - Canon, Sony, Zeiss (or Zeiss-for-Sony), Sigma and others can design exactly the same kinds of lenses just as well. So there's no unique advantage there.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Alex Waugh on January 29, 2018, 05:55:00 pm
Personally I would like to see slower, well built and compact lenses. A 24-70/4, 21/2.8 and short tele would be great. Pretty much Nikon Loxias with AF.

I would pay a super premium for a 28-70/4 amazing IQ zoom but I know it aint happening.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 29, 2018, 11:08:51 pm
I think the chance of you're list coming true is next to impossible but Otus + quality and ruggedness and the best looking do look particularly unlikely to combine.

Time will tell I suppose but I think you're heading for multiple disappointments and sorry to say this but with that list of hopes verging on fanboyism.   

All I am writing is that I expect Nikon to be attempting to reach these characteristics. To what extend they succeed is anybody’s guess.

Would you not target something similar if you were the head of product planning at Nikon?

I know I would. ;)

Regarding compactness, I see Nikon release 2 lenses line ups.
1. High performance unique designs leveraging the new possibilities of the mount (the f0.9...)
2. Super compact lenses opening at f2.8

I could be wrong, but again, this is what I would do if I were in charge because this is what I want as a photographer. This isn’t very far fetched because it makes sense and is what pretty much everybody else (including themselves in the DSLR world) has been doing, right?

And btw, I expect Canon to attempt the exact same thing. I am writing about Nikon because there are many recent patents supporting my crystalballing while Canon has been much quieter.

This being said, knowing Canon’s marketing approach, they will probably make an announcement in the same time frame as Nikon (I would guess a few days before) with an actual release date 6 months away. Either way, my guess is that they will also use lenses as the differentiating factor vs Sony. We will see how they have planned and executed this. I expect the Canon offering to be very appealing also because it has to significantly outdo Sony.

What some people seem to be missing here is the fundamental difference btw this FF mirrorless releass from Canon/Nikon and their past DSLR releases. This is the big one and what they show in terms of the promise/potential of their new mirrorless mount is the most important aspect. For Nikon, this is their EOS moment. If they don’t dream now they never will.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on January 30, 2018, 01:20:00 am
The shallower mount doesn't actually allow for much that you can't also do in an SLR, at least at the high end.

Sure, you can make UWA and WA lenses with a normal, non-retrofocus design. But your high-end lenses are going to be retrofocus anyway - a non-retrofocus lens won't give you the performance you want, and it has nothing to do with the flange distance. You can make cheap, low-end lenses much smaller that way, but I doubt that's a prime target for Canon and Nikon.

It's no easier to make a f/1.0 or f/0.9 lens for a 16mm flange distance than a 46mm flange distance. They'll still be huge, with significant sacrifices in optical performance required to reach the target aperture. There's a reason the Leica Noctilux is the softest of their 50mm lenses by far, despite being the biggest and most expensive.

As for target audiences, the only people you'll win with giant, super-fast lenses like that is cashed-up hipsters with a Leica fetish - rich, artsy types rather than working photographers. It's an extremely niche area. Very few others, and almost no professional users, need or want a lens that's twice the size of the f/1.4-f/1.8 primes, has an almost unusably-thin DOF when wide-open and is significantly softer than its rivals once stopped down to the same aperture. Current f/1.4-f/1.8 primes are already frequently used stopped down for DOF, even when shooting portraits; a faster lens just means you have to stop it down even more.

There's no point targeting tiny niches. Having super-sharp 14-24, 24-70, 70-200, 100-400 and 200-400 zooms, as well as 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm, 135mm, 200mm and supertele primes is going to do far more to attract users than a handful of super-fast, super-large, super-expensive lenses hardly anyone needs or will use wide-open anyway. But Canon and Sony can play at that game just as well as Nikon (the Sony 12-24, 16-35 and 100-400 are exceptionally sharp, while the 24-70 is the equal of any of its competitors). Nikon has its work cut out for it, and there's no easy shortcut to be gained by designing niche lenses which are only ever going to sell a few copies.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 30, 2018, 01:21:58 am
I understand your point of view.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 01, 2018, 02:32:48 am
Personally I would like to see slower, well built and compact lenses. A 24-70/4, 21/2.8 and short tele would be great. Pretty much Nikon Loxias with AF.

I would pay a super premium for a 28-70/4 amazing IQ zoom but I know it aint happening.

I'd agree to an extent. As in, not slow for the sake of small, but for the sake of maximal image quality.

Making a lens fast often requires manufacturing or design compromises to achieve a wide aperture - compromises which may affect image quality.

It would be great to have a line of lenses where these sacrifices were not made, with the emphasis on sharpness and lack of optical aberrations, with maximum aperture only a consideration after that. This might mean a line of f/1.8 or f/2 primes, for instance, rather than f/1.4.

A bit like the Leica Sunmicron and Summilux lines, really - one line making it as fast as possible without sacrificing quality, the other attempting to maximise quality without sacrificing speed.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 01, 2018, 02:49:12 am
With regards to Sigma's upcoming mirrorless lenses, no doubt they are working on the Art primes - 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.4 and 135/1.8.

But the one lens they could release, that would have the greatest impact, would be a mirrorless version of the 120-300/2.8.

After all, Canon and Nikon are both likely to release fast primes like these among their first few waves of mirrorless lenses (and Sony had already started to do so), so there is less value in Sigma simply replicating them. But the 120-300 would provide a great option for everything from sport, to (non-bird) wildlife, to theatre, to portraiture, and would stand out as a class of lens unlikely to have a Sony/Canon/Nikon competitor for a while.

Update it slightly (the optics, although very sharp, are eight years old now and can likely be improved) and add an inbuilt 1.4x TC (taking the range to 120-420mm) and you'd have a very useful lens that could possibly go a decade without a real challenger. Add in a customisable button (like the lens button on Sony lenses) and I'd buy one tomorrow.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 09, 2018, 02:36:16 am
Looks like they were also busy doing some more typical DSLR-type lenses... with a new ART Zoom 12-24 f2.8: https://www.dpreview.com/news/9856051689/sigma-announces-full-frame-14-24mm-f2-8-dg-hsm-art-lens
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 09, 2018, 02:52:20 am
Looks like they were also busy doing some more typical DSLR-type lenses... with a new ART Zoom 12-24 f2.8: https://www.dpreview.com/news/9856051689/sigma-announces-full-frame-14-24mm-f2-8-dg-hsm-art-lens

Doesn't mean they won't also release it in a mirrorless mount. No need to change the optics - why mess with something that works well? Good for Canon's and Nikon's mirrorless efforts, too - a UWA zoom is unlikely to be their first lens release, so a Sigma option would add a lot to the initial lineup.

I'd like to see an equal-aperture comparison against the Canon 11-24 and Sony 12-24 (at f/4, and perhaps also at f/8).
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 09, 2018, 02:57:20 am
Doesn't mean they won't also release it in a mirrorless mount. No need to change the optics - why mess with something that works well? Good for Canon's and Nikon's mirrorless efforts, too - a UWA zoom is unlikely to be their first lens release, so a Sigma option would add a lot to the initial lineup.

I will prefer complete new design. Yes, you can use the same optics, but the advantage of mirrorless over DSLR in UWA is that you can avoid the retrofocus design needed in DSLR, making the lens smaller.

Quote
I'd like to see an equal-aperture comparison against the Canon 11-24 and Sony 12-24 (at f/4, and perhaps also at f/8).

Roger at Len's Rentals has MTF charts plotted for both lenses at f4: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/06/sony-fe-12-24-f4-g-mtf-tests/  (the test was done before they started doing some tests also at f5.6 and f8, they always tested the lenses wide open until that moment).
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 09, 2018, 03:09:57 am
I will prefer complete new design. Yes, you can use the same optics, but the advantage of mirrorless over DSLR in UWA is that you can avoid the retrofocus design needed in DSLR, making the lens smaller.

You can make them smaller, but that doesn't mean you should.

Retrofocus designs aren't just used to make UWA lenses fit on SLRs. They're used to ensure that the light hitting the sensor arrives at a more perpendicular, less oblique angle. Without a retrofocus design, light hitting the corners through a 12mm lens would arrive at just 29 degrees from the film plane. This would result in not only heavy vignetting and chromatic aberration, but also massive colour artifacts on Bayer (or other non-Foveon-type) sensors. Some film lenses got away with it, but film has neither a Bayer-type colour filter array nor a microlens array sensitive to angle of incidence, as well as nowhere near as much resolution. It wouldn't work with high-resolution digital sensors (unless the sensors were curved).

Quote
Roger at Len's Rentals has MTF charts plotted for both lenses at f4: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/06/sony-fe-12-24-f4-g-mtf-tests/  (the test was done before they started doing some tests also at f5.6 and f8, they always tested the lenses wide open until that moment).

I know. They're pretty much equally sharp, very sharp for such a wide angle, and sharper than any primes in that focal length range. f/4 performance isn't the best in the corners (what do you expect with such wide lenses?) but, from f/5.6 onwards, they're sharp all the way to the corners. What I mean is, how does the new lens stack up against them?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 09, 2018, 03:34:09 am

I know. They're pretty much equally sharp, very sharp for such a wide angle, and sharper than any primes in that focal length range. f/4 performance isn't the best in the corners (what do you expect with such wide lenses?) but, from f/5.6 onwards, they're sharp all the way to the corners. What I mean is, how does the new lens stack up against them?

Ok, I read it to quick... Well, the Sigma does not have a release date yet... it just the annoucement, so we will have to wait. Anyway, the ART zooms of Sigma weren't so stellar as their primes. 24-70 art is not better than the Canon equivalent. But we will have to wait for reviews.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 09, 2018, 04:12:11 am
Ok, I read it to quick... Well, the Sigma does not have a release date yet... it just the annoucement, so we will have to wait. Anyway, the ART zooms of Sigma weren't so stellar as their primes. 24-70 art is not better than the Canon equivalent. But we will have to wait for reviews.

Well, the Canon 24-70 is incredibly sharp. It's not an easy lens to beat.

But the Sigma 24-35 is pretty incredible. And, looking at Lensrentals, the 24-105 is up there too, particularly when stopped down to f/5.6. It might just be the 24-70 that isn't up to scratch.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: kers on February 09, 2018, 05:14:50 am
Now the 14-24mm f2.8 ART zoom has arrived...
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9856051689/sigma-announces-full-frame-14-24mm-f2-8-dg-hsm-art-lens

Let us see what Sigma can do about 11 years after the Nikkor made the 14-24mm.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 09, 2018, 05:59:06 am
11 years already... it is hard to overstress the extend of the lead they had taken with that lens.

I can hardly remember the person I was 11 years ago.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 09, 2018, 06:31:49 am
And they sat on it and didn't update it, while Canon surpassed their design and Sony went from not even having an interchangeable-lens camera to becoming a full-fledged competitor to Canon and Nikon.

Now, the Canon 11-24 and Sony 12-24 are king of the UWAs and the Nikon 14-24, which was so sharp on the 12MP sensors of the day, is now a sorry-looking lens with blurry corners (but still basically no coma) on the current 42-50MP sensors.

Stagnation never helped anyone. Just look at Canon - Canon's sensor weakness is largely responsible for Sony's existence as a camera (as opposed to a sensor) company. Nikon should have updated this lens five years ago.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 09, 2018, 06:56:05 am
And they sat on it and didn't update it, while Canon surpassed their design and Sony went from not even having an interchangeable-lens camera to becoming a full-fledged competitor to Canon and Nikon.

Now, the Canon 11-24 and Sony 12-24 are king of the UWAs and the Nikon 14-24, which was so sharp on the 12MP sensors of the day, is now a sorry-looking lens with blurry corners (but still basically no coma) on the current 42-50MP sensors.

Stagnation never helped anyone. Just look at Canon - Canon's sensor weakness is largely responsible for Sony's existence as a camera (as opposed to a sensor) company. Nikon should have updated this lens five years ago.

5 years ago Nikon was trying to recover from one of the largest earthquakes ever and major floods in their main foreign manufacturing site in Thailand... It is a miracle they managed to remain this good in these circumstances.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on February 09, 2018, 08:38:52 am
5 years ago Nikon was trying to recover from one of the largest earthquakes ever and major floods in their main foreign manufacturing site in Thailand... It is a miracle they managed to remain this good in these circumstances.

Cheers,
Bernard

Wasn’t Sony also hit very hard and has moved on at incredible rates.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 09, 2018, 03:34:51 pm
Wasn’t Sony also hit very hard and has moved on at incredible rates.

I should have anticipated that...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: hogloff on February 10, 2018, 01:06:22 am
I should have anticipated that...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Just putting things into perspective...many companies were hit hard.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 25, 2018, 08:07:32 am
So, it looks like it is a 105 mm f1.4 and a 70 mm macro, both Art lenses for Sony Full Frame mirrorless... interesting choices, since they fill gaps...

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-image-new-sigma-105mm-f-1-4-art-lens-sony-e-mount/


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 25, 2018, 08:47:13 am
So, it looks like it is a 105 mm f1.4 and a 70 mm macro, both Art lenses for Sony Full Frame mirrorless... interesting choices, since they fill gaps...

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-image-new-sigma-105mm-f-1-4-art-lens-sony-e-mount/


http://dgpfotografia.com


Ok, reading again... looks like it is the same version of lens they are going to release for Nikon and Canon but just with Sony FE mount...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rob C on February 25, 2018, 10:26:49 am
I think I just got double vision.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rado on February 25, 2018, 11:01:28 am
Yikes that 105mm lens looks gigantic, even for Sigma's standards. And I thought the 85 art is as bad as it gets.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 25, 2018, 11:51:29 am
I think I just got double vision.

Sorry Rob, looks like Tapatalk, the app I’m using to access the forum, is having a bad day... my apologies for the double post...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rob C on February 25, 2018, 05:14:19 pm
Sorry Rob, looks like Tapatalk, the app I’m using to access the forum, is having a bad day... my apologies for the double post...


http://dgpfotografia.com

Hey, be cool, I was just kidding and trying to think of something to do with myself, so I decided to watch two Sopranos episodes in a row.

I discovered a funny thing about myself: I hate to see scenes where young boys are trying to have it off with young girls... I must be thinking of my own kids when they were in their teens. Morality ain't no bad thing, especially for somebody else.

:-)
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 25, 2018, 11:42:55 pm
Yikes that 105mm lens looks gigantic, even for Sigma's standards. And I thought the 85 art is as bad as it gets.

I get the feeling that massive thing at the front is lens hood, rather than the lens itself. Although why a 105mm lens would need a hood so much wider than the front element is another question entirely - it's not like it's a UWA.

I wonder if the Sony version will have a button on the lens to assign to eye AF, as with the Sony and Sony/Zeiss lenses. Also, will it take teleconverters? For portraits (and this is obviously a portrait lens) I always found 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2 or even 200mm f/2.8 much more useful than shorter lenses with wider apertures - you end up with the same amount of background blur (the longer focal length compensating for the smaller aperture) while the smaller aperture means you get more than one eye in focus (with the corresponding eyelashes already blurry, and the tip of the nose way out of focus) with a head or head-and-shoulders shot.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on February 26, 2018, 10:03:57 am
I get the feeling that massive thing at the front is lens hood, rather than the lens itself. Although why a 105mm lens would need a hood so much wider than the front element is another question entirely - it's not like it's a UWA.

I wonder if the Sony version will have a button on the lens to assign to eye AF, as with the Sony and Sony/Zeiss lenses. Also, will it take teleconverters? For portraits (and this is obviously a portrait lens) I always found 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2 or even 200mm f/2.8 much more useful than shorter lenses with wider apertures - you end up with the same amount of background blur (the longer focal length compensating for the smaller aperture) while the smaller aperture means you get more than one eye in focus (with the corresponding eyelashes already blurry, and the tip of the nose way out of focus) with a head or head-and-shoulders shot.

We will have to wait and see, but... the Nikon 105 f/1.4 is almost 1 kg and takes 82mm filters. Seems like the Sigma for DSLR will be even bigger, and for FE, if they do a simple adaptation, they will have to add a spacing for the converter...
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: davidgp on February 26, 2018, 12:23:47 pm
Hey, be cool, I was just kidding and trying to think of something to do with myself, so I decided to watch two Sopranos episodes in a row.

I discovered a funny thing about myself: I hate to see scenes where young boys are trying to have it off with young girls... I must be thinking of my own kids when they were in their teens. Morality ain't no bad thing, especially for somebody else.

:-)

:)

Long time ago since I saw one episode of The Sopranos... so I don't remember those teen love scenes...  I will agree with you, in a series like Sopranos, losing time with young boys trying to have it off with girls... having more interesting scenes to see...
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: kers on February 28, 2018, 09:48:58 am
Now Sigma is going to release a new extreme lens , the 105mm f/1.4  Art,  half a year after Nikon did.

I am sure the lens will be very very good optically, but it weight 1645 grams... ! filter size 105mm
weighs more than a 70-200 f/2.8 zoom...( and has no VR)
It will make the 135mm f/1.8 Art lens look small and lightweight...
one thing i really like : it has a arca swiss tripod mount- at last ! ... kudos to Sigma.

Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: NancyP on February 28, 2018, 01:40:26 pm
Hey, another use for the Lee filter system CPL.....   ;D
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2018, 05:11:02 pm
The Nikon 105mm f1.4 was released during the summer of 2016.

I got mine in Sept 2016. ;)

I am sure the Sigma is excellent, but that level of bulk is getting unmanageable in my view.

Now, the strength of the Nikon is the combination of very high tech excellence AND look.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: armand on February 28, 2018, 05:28:42 pm
I'm curious, what use would you have from that Sigma that's not met by the much smaller available lenses?
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2018, 06:19:47 pm
Besides, I would be surprised if they were able to make money with it below a 1,700~1,800 US$ price point.

The best maybe to look at it as a light and very affordable 200mm f2.0.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: shadowblade on February 28, 2018, 08:43:36 pm
Besides, I would be surprised if they were able to make money with it below a 1,700~1,800 US$ price point.

The best maybe to look at it as a light and very affordable 200mm f2.0.

Cheers,
Bernard

The 135/1.8 already does that, and potentially a better job of it.

It has the same 75mm physical aperture size as the 105/1.4, so will give the same degree of background blur when the field of view at the focal plane is the same (although, as a longer lens, you'd be standing 30% further away to achieve the same field of view). Additionally, at f/1.8, it allows you to keep more of the subject's face in sharp focus than the 105/1.4, while still blowing out the background to the same degree.

Of course, this says nothing about the quality of the bokeh. It may well be that the 105/1.4 has smoother bokeh than the 135/1.8, despite the quantity of background blurring being the same. In that case, I hope it can take a 1.4x TC and has enough central sharpness to carry it well - a 147mm f/2 option, with super-smooth bokeh, could be even better than either 105/1.4 or 135/1.8.

I'd like to see Sigma bring out a 200/2 lens. It would be the next logical step in their lineup of portrait lenses, and given recent history, would likely give the Canon and Nikon versions a run for their money.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: kers on March 01, 2018, 04:51:36 am
This Sigma 105 f/1.4 is a heavy big monster of a lens...
combine that lens with a Sony 7 ;)

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7988525955/cp-2018-hands-on-with-sigma-105mm-f1-4-art-bokeh-master
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: Rado on March 01, 2018, 07:01:24 am
The front element is a beautiful piece of glass isn't it. The 105mm filter thread is a bit insane though. They could have at least tried to keep it under 100mm so that one could use 100mm filter holders on it.
Title: Re: What is Sigma up to?
Post by: BJL on March 02, 2018, 07:03:54 pm
This Sigma 105 f/1.4 is a heavy big monster of a lens...
combine that lens with a Sony 7 ;)

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7988525955/cp-2018-hands-on-with-sigma-105mm-f1-4-art-bokeh-master
And that is why there is a tripod mount for the lens — which doubles as a hint about where to put one hand when hand-holding, making the sometimes feared lens-body weight disparity irrelevant for those of us who hold cameras that way.