Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: Ray on September 16, 2006, 12:07:15 am

Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on September 16, 2006, 12:07:15 am
This issue is something that has worried me for some time. We live in a society where 'white lies' are the norm. Without them, we might be in serious trouble, but I can't say for sure because, in the photogrphic context, we don't see much of it.

Anyone who tries to be ruthlessly honest in all her/his opinions would, I suspect, become totally friendless. Most of us have an instinctual feeling to be kind, to look on the positive side, to downplay the negative aspect, to actually lie about our true response to whatever we're considering. It's a sort of in-built political savvy. Encouragement of the strong points is better than damnation of the weak points.

The fear of hurting, in our critiques, is powerful because of the dictum, 'do unto others as you would have done unto you'. Would I rather have someone make no comment on one of my photos, or really blast it? I think the latter.

For the record (I'm editing this), we also live in a world of blatant lies, but I think most photographic critiques fall into the category of 'whte lies'.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: 32BT on September 16, 2006, 04:22:38 am
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Anyone who tries to be ruthlessly honest in all her/his opinions would, I suspect, become totally friendless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, given the amount of time we spend on these forums, what's the change? :-)

But more seriously, what you're saying seems to imply that "honesty" equals "negativity", which I presume is not what you meant. I think the bigger problem is that people all too easily mistake "opinion" for "universal truth". There is a big difference between:

1. That picture is a complete dud and has no artistic merit.

vs

2. I fail to see the pictorial interest, could you explain your goal?

The second sentence obviously can read anything, as long as it hints at what process leads to the opinion: I fail to see the pictorial interest, there seem no obvious lines leading the viewer into the frame, there is no obvious point of interest to rest and focus the viewer. The picture seems to lack a story. How is your sunset image different from a collection of saturated colors? What happened that day? I'm not personally triggered to muze a story. Could you explain your goal?
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Lisa Nikodym on September 16, 2006, 12:18:37 pm
When I post something for critique, it's because I'm not quite happy with some aspect of it and am either looking for constructive suggestions on how to make it better or looking for people to tell me that I'm imagining the problem, as the case may be.  I do want an honest answer.  That's how one learns.

When I critique people's images here and have something constructively negative to say, I also try to comment on what's positive about the photo, so they don't just throw it out in disgust, but try to improve it and learn from it, and that includes learning what they did right.  That's how I make clear I'm not a hostile critic, without needing to resort to ""little white lies".  If I don't have anything constructive or positive to say, I say nothing.

(There was one occasion I posted some images and specifically asked for a *technical* critique, since I had gotten a new camera and wanted feedback on whether there were any technical aspects I still needed to work on, and someone wrote to say simply, "They do nothing for me."  Fortunately, that sort of nonconstructive and dismissive comment rarely happens around here...)

Lisa
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: dobson on September 16, 2006, 02:55:58 pm
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2. I fail to see the pictorial interest, could you explain your goal?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This wording is great. I immediately looked up at one of my prints and answered this question for myself. It showed me, in a way I hadn't thought of, why I like that print.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: mikeseb on September 16, 2006, 03:49:31 pm
Interesting topic, not discussed often enough. I tell you, I am about to abandon certain other nameless photo sites because the critiques there are as useless as some of the work posted. Rule there seems to be if the [nude] models are comely enough, it must be a good photograph.

I agree that part of the problem is people wanting to "be nice"; but also the problem is ignorance about what constitutes a decent photograph--the historical standards by which photography has long been judged. [Heaven help me, but do I sound like an old CODGER here or what?]  If you don't know that, how can you offer anything much of meaning? On the nameless sites I haven't mentioned, it's either one big mutual-admiration society, or it's the anonymous tantrum-throwing low-rater seeking revenge for childhood traumas!

Too many people misunderstand the word "criticism", taking it to mean derogation; its actual meaning is revealed in its ancient predecessors: L criticus, G kritikos, "able to discern". People lack the knowledge or confidence to make the judgments required in discerning, in "criticizing", so they offer esteem-building platitudes which in the long run harm the critique-seeker truly hoping to improve his/her work.

My approach is to take the critique-seeker at his/her word when I'm told "critiques welcomed", or "tell me what you really think". I praise the praise-worthy aspects, and explain myself when I point out shortcomings, figuring if I can't do that then I'm not critiquing, merely spouting nonsense. I don't worry much about hurt feelings, because I assume the poster is a big boy/big girl, wanting to get better; because I don't attack ad hominem; and because the poster can read and decide for him/herself whether or not I'm FOS.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Mark Graf on September 18, 2006, 12:32:35 pm
I tend to follow the same line of thought as Lisa expressed here.   If you are offering a critique in the first place, I assume your intentions are noble and you are actually trying to help someone.  That said, if you want them to actually listen, you have to put a bit more effort into simply stating 'that's crap' or 'that's a terrific image.'       I consider good critiques the ones that recognize the positive aspects of an image, and perhaps offer suggestions for improvement 'in a perfect world.'
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Tim Gray on September 18, 2006, 05:06:48 pm
I've basically concluded that the "forum" type of critiques are, for the most part useless.  They basically boil down to quid pro quo arrangements where if I say nice things about the 1,000 shots you post, you'll say nice things about the 1,000 I post.

The one site that, IMHO adds real value is Radiant Vista - the critique methodology (even if you disagree with it's formulistic approach) is consistent and I can see in other folks shots elements of mine and as such get good value from seeing their  shots analyzed.  It's actually interesting to see the shot, formulate your own comments then listen to the actual critique.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 19, 2006, 04:50:10 am
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Anyone who tries to be ruthlessly honest in all her/his opinions would, I suspect, become totally friendless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, if that is true, we are friendless already.

For me, a friend is precisely someone who doesn't get offended when I tell him/her what I think.

The wording matters, but the content should not be self censored for the sake of not hurting someone.

One of my favourite saying in French reads "qui aime bien chatie bien". It translates in English as "who likes well punishes well".

It is sometimes misunderstood for a promotion of SM behaviours (joke), but all it means is that it is precisely because a person is dear to us that it is our duty to be frank, and sometimes a bit harsh, to them. For their own good.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: russell a on September 19, 2006, 09:07:28 am
Anyone truly interested in the subject of critiques should read Criticizing Photographs, An Introduction to Understanding Images Fourth Edition, Terry Barrett, McGraw Hill, 2006.  One issue he deals with is the "intentional fallacy" - which takes the position of questioning that the artist actually knows his/her intent.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: JRandallNichols on September 25, 2006, 09:30:05 pm
I certainly second Tim Gray's high opinion of The Radiant Vista.  But when this forum was begun some months ago I was one of the "suggesters" and the foundational idea was that someone would post an image with a clear question about something they wanted to learn about it.   The forum seems to have lost that discipline, and so you get things like an earlier post here to which no one replies because the poster simply put up an image and said "See?" rather than wanting to learn something specific.

I do believe some of the earlier critiques were far more useful for both presenter and critic precisely because they were driven by the specificity of the presenter's want-to-know query.  Couldn't we return to it?
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on October 16, 2006, 10:57:27 pm
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Anyone who tries to be ruthlessly honest in all her/his opinions would, I suspect, become totally friendless. Most of us have an instinctual feeling to be kind, to look on the positive side, to downplay the negative aspect, to actually lie about our true response to whatever we're considering. It's a sort of in-built political savvy. Encouragement of the strong points is better than damnation of the weak points.

A well thought-out post, but I'd say that I'm living proof that your concerns are not completely justified.  
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on October 16, 2006, 11:20:32 pm
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A well thought-out post, but I'd say that I'm living proof that your concerns are not completely justified. 
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Well said, Jonathan!
It's nice to hear from you. I, for one, have been missing your "ruthlessly honest" posts.
I hope you're taking good care of yourself over there.

Eric
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: OnyimBob on October 16, 2006, 11:43:33 pm
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Well said, Jonathan!
It's nice to hear from you. I, for one, have been missing your "ruthlessly honest" posts.
I hope you're taking good care of yourself over there.

Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Was just thinking last night - havent seen a post from Jonathon lately, hope he's all right!
There you go!
Be careful.
Bob
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on October 17, 2006, 02:39:50 pm
I don't agree that we are all hypocrits.  The problem I see with an honest opinion of a print is an honest opinion may not be what the photographer wants.  Then he may complain, or offer excuses.

A funny crit I was at went something like:

"The print is out of focus.  I am giving you an F."

"I wanted the print to be out of focus."

"I wanted to give you an F."

The print was out of focus.  No doubt or denying that.  Why?  The critic didn't care.  The photogrpaher did and said so.  The photographer didn't care what others (the critic) thought.  He just wanted an A (a slap on the back).  You can mail those in.  (You don't need to see the print.  Just say you love it.)  The critic was honest but failed to meet the photographer's expectations.  Which, in my opinion, should be nothing more than getting an honest opinion.  You may have your reasons for doing something, but don't expect (or require) others to agree.  Maybe the photographer was the one out of step even if he thought he was marching perfectly to the unheard drum.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on October 18, 2006, 01:01:44 am
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Well said, Jonathan!
It's nice to hear from you. I, for one, have been missing your "ruthlessly honest" posts.
I hope you're taking good care of yourself over there.

I'm doing well, and am visiting a post large enough to rate an internet connection, so I can indulge my LL addiction once again. Details of my adventures can be found here (http://www.visual-vacations.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=377).

BTW, I agree that some people seeking "critiques" are really fishing for compliments, and aren't always sufficiently mature to handle it well when they get honest criticism instead of ego-scratching. And some people are afraid to say an ugly baby is ugly. But there are people who fail to follow these unfortunate trends, and there are others here besides me.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: mitchdob on October 18, 2006, 05:44:34 pm
Jonathan, Howie - all sounds great. And I mostly agree.  So I posted recently wanting feedback and some honest critiques of my work/website. Reason being I just started showing, I know I have a long way to go.... but wanted a barometer of where I was at from peers on LL. I got some good feedback, but I'd be interested in your feedback too (didn't see you post). I know it would be good constructive criticism. How about it?

Look for www.mitchdobrowner.com on the "User Critique" thread.  

Stay safe out there.  - Mitch
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on October 18, 2006, 06:22:48 pm
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Jonathan, Howie - all sounds great. And I mostly agree.  So I posted recently wanting feedback and some honest critiques of my work/website. Reason being I just started showing, I know I have a long way to go.... but wanted a barometer of where I was at from peers on LL. I got some good feedback, but I'd be interested in your feedback too (didn't see you post). I know it would be good constructive criticism. How about it?

Look for www.mitchdobrowner.com on the "User Critique" thread. 

Stay safe out there.  - Mitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, I went to your site to look at your photos.  I was told I needed an updated version of something to see them.  More effort than I wanted to spend.  (Now that is honest.)  I need things to be easy for me.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: mitchdob on October 18, 2006, 07:53:38 pm
Thanks for that feedback. And yes, good point. You raised an issue with building websites that are easy to view. The site is actually asking you to upgrade to Flash 7. I know this is an issue for some, so I tried to make the upgrade easy. To upgrade you click once on the "Flash 7", which brings you to the Adobe Flash 7 site. Once there, click on "upgrade". 2 clicks. Best I could do. If its harder then that let me know.

Note: Before it was decided to use Flash 7 for the site I did some research into how many systems would need this upgrade (as I really wanted dissolves on the site for aesthetic reasons, which you need (at least) Flash 7 for).  

Worldwide Ubiquity of Adobe Flash Player by Version
(Millward Brown - Worldwide Survey): June 2006

Flash Penetration into Mature Markets:*
Flash Player 5 = 97.3%          
Flash Player 6 = 97.2%              
Flash Player 7 = 95.8%            
Flash Player 8 = 86.0%
* Mature Markets include US, UK, France, Germany, Japan.

Anyway, sorry for diverting the topic of this discussion off of "The difficulty of an honest critique". But feel free to post some comments into my link for feedback if you do upgrade. And thanks again.

- Mitch
www.mitchdobrowner.com
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Anon E. Mouse on October 20, 2006, 01:02:36 am
Ray, are you saying it is possible to give an objective opinion to a subjective problem?
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Hank on October 21, 2006, 02:11:07 pm
For me it boils down to the intent of the person hanging/posting for review.  If they have specific questions, I'll go to great effort to consider those points and answer frankly.  If they're simply displaying an image they think is great, I won't even take the time for back pats, much less the cnosiderable thought required for a review.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on November 24, 2006, 10:41:01 am
Proverbs 24, verse 26, "It is an honor to receive an honest reply."
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on November 24, 2006, 11:08:59 am
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Ray, are you saying it is possible to give an objective opinion to a subjective problem?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a thought provoking question to whch I don't know the answer, although I suspect most psychiatrists would answer in the affirmative.

I thnk what I'm sayng is that most of us modify our response in order not to appear negative but rather to appear politically correct, positive and encouraging, leavng the author of the photo wondering to what degree the criticism is just flattery.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on November 24, 2006, 11:11:13 am
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Proverbs 24, verse 26, "It is an honor to receive an honest reply."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=86857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good attitude to have, Howard. I hope you feel honoured by my replies to you   .
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on November 24, 2006, 02:05:09 pm
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I thnk what I'm sayng is that most of us modify our response in order not to appear negative but rather to appear politically correct, positive and encouraging, leavng the author of the photo wondering to what degree the criticism is just flattery.

I would agree with that, and it is something I try to avoid. IMO if more people were willing to say an ugly baby was ugly the world would be a better place. I certainly learn more from one honest "negative" comment pointing out shortcomings in my work than a whole thread full of soul-butter. But I may have thicker-than-average skin...
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: jani on November 24, 2006, 05:53:46 pm
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I would agree with that, and it is something I try to avoid. IMO if more people were willing to say an ugly baby was ugly the world would be a better place. I certainly learn more from one honest "negative" comment pointing out shortcomings in my work than a whole thread full of soul-butter. But I may have thicker-than-average skin...
If I get a seriously negative comment, my first reaction will be the natural one of feeling slighted, perhaps insulted or hurt.

But then I get over it.  (And I think that's the clue to growing with it. )
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: jjj on November 24, 2006, 10:51:07 pm
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Actually, I went to your site to look at your photos.  I was told I needed an updated version of something to see them.  More effort than I wanted to spend.  (Now that is honest.)  I need things to be easy for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mitch's images are definitely well worth looking at.
Though the scrolling thumbnails navigation is a bit clunky when trying to jump to later/earlier shots, Mitch.  Also borders on the images would help stop the images and background bleeding into each other. But the pics are great.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on November 25, 2006, 01:45:50 am
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If I get a seriously negative comment, my first reaction will be the natural one of feeling slighted, perhaps insulted or hurt.

But then I get over it.  (And I think that's the clue to growing with it. )

Exactly. Receiving criticism is not generally ego-gratifying and enjoyable, but for some reason, few things that help us truly grow and mature in any endeavor in life are. One needs to be able to receive and accept constructive criticisms and ignore the brainless blathering of the spitefully stupid without having an emotional breakdown, as well as receive praise and positive feedback without becoming egotistical and developing excessively high opinion of one's self, skills, and work.

Please note that I'm not against using some tact when expressing honest criticism; saying that the baby's extra left arm is visually disquieting will probably be easier for the recipient to accept than a comment to the effect that the baby is living proof that a certain corner of the human gene pool is in dire need of some extra-heavy chlorination.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on November 25, 2006, 11:15:04 am
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saying that the baby's extra left arm is visually disquieting will probably be easier for the recipient to accept than a comment to the effect that the baby is living proof that a certain corner of the human gene pool is in dire need of some extra-heavy chlorination.
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I'm not sure about this, Jonathan. Both expressions are indirect, circumlocutionary and euphemistic, are they not? A bit like saying, terminate with extreme prejudice, instead of kill.  
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on November 25, 2006, 02:25:50 pm
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One needs to be able to receive and accept constructive criticisms and ignore the brainless blathering of the spitefully stupid without having an emotional breakdown, as well as receive praise and positive feedback without becoming egotistical and developing excessively high opinion of one's self, skills, and work.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=86940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The real test here is having the knowledge and confidence in that knowledge to tell the difference between condtructive ctiticism and the "brainless blathering ... stupid."  Often the criticic himself doesn't know.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on November 25, 2006, 05:19:02 pm
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I'm not sure about this, Jonathan. Both expressions are indirect, circumlocutionary and euphemistic, are they not? A bit like saying, terminate with extreme prejudice, instead of kill. 

The first statement simply implies that the baby is unpleasantly ugly. The second statement also implies that the baby and the parents should be prevented from reproducing, by lethal force if necessary. That second implication is unnecessary to simply communicate "the baby is ugly", and is more likely to offend the listener.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on November 26, 2006, 11:10:08 am
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That second implication is unnecessary to simply communicate "the baby is ugly", and is more likely to offend the listener.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did I write circumlocutionary?!! Must have been thinking of execution.

You know, I think you're quite right. Glad you're toning down your criticisms   .

Nice outfit, by the way.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: jjj on November 27, 2006, 09:39:23 am
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The first statement simply implies that the baby is unpleasantly ugly. The second statement also implies that the baby and the parents should be prevented from reproducing, by lethal force if necessary. That second implication is unnecessary to simply communicate "the baby is ugly", and is more likely to offend the listener.
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All babies are the most beautiful and faultless thing ever created!!!  
So to say "your baby is ugly", "a bit ugly" or even "very slightly ugly" to parents is likely to result in the termination of the person uttering any version of such a phrase. There is no safety zone there.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on November 27, 2006, 10:13:43 am
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There is no safety zone there.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

An honest opinion to a very biased audience can be big trouble, or at least, unwelcome.  Some audiences are much easier to "read" as biased, like a baby's parents or grandparents.  It gets harder when someone asks "What do you think?"  So you step up and tell them.

A safe answer is "THAT'S a baby!"  PC, yes.  A lie, no.

I had a mentor once that said "Never ask how you are doing.  Someone may tell you."

An opinion is just that - an opinion.  It may be based on untruths, but it is still an opinion and cannot be "wrong."
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Ray on November 28, 2006, 02:55:28 am
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So to say "your baby is ugly", "a bit ugly" or even "very slightly ugly" to parents is likely to result in the termination of the person uttering any version of such a phrase. There is no safety zone there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know, I think you're right. The outrage is so great that the distinction between 'your baby is ugly' and 'your baby should never have been born' is probably going to be lost.

Jonathan, I think you should refrain from describing babies as ugly, even if you think they are   .
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: etude on December 04, 2006, 09:38:54 pm
Howie made a good point - many want a pat on the back rather than constructive criticism. On a number of different forums related to various interests, I respond most to those who appear to want constructive criticism, as I find this much more interesting.

Speaking of proverbs (in the Bible), there is also a verse in there that says "the wounds of a friend are more faithful than an enemy's kiss."

I studied architecture for 6 years. One thing that was very helpful was being immersed in a culture of constructive criticism and creative work. Criticism is a very positive and helpful thing, we all know that. Often the enemy of our own growth is that part of us that wants to get an A. We want to grow, but we also want peer recognition. We are in the best place to grow and learn when we want someone to help us make something better.

Edward De Bono has some very helpful ideas that relate to this topic. One of his books "parallel thinking" sets forward the of concept of putting forward opinions that might seem to contradict each other, but laying them side by side in parallel. It is in contrast to debate style thinking, where we feel we have to first discredit other ideas in order to promote our own. I've noticed in forums, people often start criticising each other's criticisms! I think there is a place for just laying our own opinion down next to another. Whoever wants to use them can then compare, and use what they prefer. Whichever seems to fit best is taken up, rather than having a debate. This frees everyone up to consider what might have been considered opposing views. Energy that went into defending ones own view, now goes into considering the merits of the other view. I think this is much more creative.

I think part of the problem is that many have not learnt to embrace criticism in a positive way. The other part is that we are human and have conflicting desires.

Going back to uni, I can recall some were dismissive of some of my work. Another might come alongside and say "how can we make this work?"

De Bono wrote another great book on a concept called the 6 thinking hats. The idea is that you think in one way at a time. Black hat = judgement where we evaluate the value or lack of value of something. Yellow hat = how can we make this work? White hat = gathering information. I think when we criticise, we need to switch hats at times, and use the approach that fits. If someone wants a pat on the back, and we honestly like their work, we can do that. If they feel it isn't working, we can sit beside them and work on ideas to make it work. If they are a beginner wanting more encouragement than help, then it's probably more appropriate to overlook major shortcomings, encourage what we see that is good, and pick a few minor things to criticise along with ideas on how to improve.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on December 14, 2006, 02:54:00 pm
It seems that "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" drives a lot of critiques and comments.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: jani on December 14, 2006, 06:08:36 pm
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It seems that "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" drives a lot of critiques and comments.
In critiques, I try to follow this rule of thumb instead:

"If you can't say anything constructive, don't say anything"

If other people think this seems like a good idea, keep in mind that negative feedback can also be constructive.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on December 14, 2006, 06:31:25 pm
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In critiques, I try to follow this rule of thumb instead:

"If you can't say anything constructive, don't say anything"

If other people think this seems like a good idea, keep in mind that negative feedback can also be constructive.
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I agree with that, but some folks just can't accept they have a bad image, even when the basis for that opinion is given.  They just say the reasons are bogus and they know better.  That may be, but that was the basis for the constructive criticism you thought you were giving.  I guess constructive is in the eye of the critic.

Some folks think "nice pic" is a positive critique.  Not without a reason and certainly if it isn't.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: etude on December 14, 2006, 10:05:39 pm
Negative feedback may or may not be constructive. I think the point of constructive criticism is that it's main point is not to offer a judgement but to suggest a way to improve.

"That's crap"
I'd call that a judgement, nothing constructive is offered. You wouldn't expect them to say "thanks" to that.

"That's crap but if you did XYZ it could be better"
That's a combination of judgement and constructive criticism.

"As it stands, the image doesn't work for me. I see potential for it to improve if you did XYZ"
I'd call that constructive criticism, the kind that most want when they do in fact want help to improve. It doesn't actually give a judgement of this kind "I'm the expert giving a judgement and my opinion is THE opinion." Instead, the attitude is more that of an equal. Although it doesn't indulge the desire to have a pat on the back, most people I find are open to this approach if there is any desire to improve and some kind of constructive input has been requested.

I think if an image doesn't seem to have scope for this kind of feedback, if you really do think it's crap to the point that it's beyond help, then it's not really very interesting to talk about it.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Rob C on December 16, 2006, 11:59:35 am
Criticism. I think it's an impossible concept if one wants to think of it in terms of 'teaching'. For a start, it demands an arrogance from the critic that might be quite misplaced - lots of emperors are pretty damn naked - and I think that from the recipient's point of view, there should not be a search or request for criticism in the first place. Why? Because I think that if you have the desire to make a statement, then you should just go ahead and make it, regardless.

Nobody can tell you (in truth, rather than simply by articulation) how your art should have been done - that's just ridiculous: you are the author and that should be an end to it, the only justification required. (Of course, if we are talking commerce, then that's another ball game, and the client's always right even when he's wrong.)

Photography is one of the few things in life where simple, mechanical/optical/electrical/chemical(?) rules can be learned in a very short time and then put into practice in pusuit of whatever turns one on. The rest is opinion and his is as good as hers, yours as mine. In other words, technique is as personal as vision, its just the way things are.

This holds for fine art painting too: the guy who does blocks of solid colour was probably at the same art school as the one who paints photographically accurate pictures - it's just how they play. All the technical knowledge in the world doesn't necessarily have to be on display at all times...

What on earth can anyone expect from criticism, other than a pat on the back or a kick in the teeth? Constructive advice comes down to how the critic imagines he'd have done it, that's all, back to where we came in.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on December 16, 2006, 12:49:36 pm
Quote
Criticism. I think it's an impossible concept if one wants to think of it in terms of 'teaching'. For a start, it demands an arrogance from the critic that might be quite misplaced - lots of emperors are pretty damn naked - and I think that from the recipient's point of view, there should not be a search or request for criticism in the first place. Why? Because I think that if you have the desire to make a statement, then you should just go ahead and make it, regardless.

Nobody can tell you (in truth, rather than simply by articulation) how your art should have been done - that's just ridiculous: you are the author and that should be an end to it, the only justification required. (Of course, if we are talking commerce, then that's another ball game, and the client's always right even when he's wrong.)

Photography is one of the few things in life where simple, mechanical/optical/electrical/chemical(?) rules can be learned in a very short time and then put into practice in pusuit of whatever turns one on. The rest is opinion and his is as good as hers, yours as mine. In other words, technique is as personal as vision, its just the way things are.

This holds for fine art painting too: the guy who does blocks of solid colour was probably at the same art school as the one who paints photographically accurate pictures - it's just how they play. All the technical knowledge in the world doesn't necessarily have to be on display at all times...

What on earth can anyone expect from criticism, other than a pat on the back or a kick in the teeth? Constructive advice comes down to how the critic imagines he'd have done it, that's all, back to where we came in.

Ciao - Rob C
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The critiques that I am most familiar with were at school.  There I payed to be told by the instructors what I needed to do to get better.  In effect, I granted them a license to be arrogant and dictatorial.

"[H]ow they play" was decided by the instructor and I had granted him the right to say my stuff was crap, even if I didn't agree.  That is why the photogrpaher was not allowed to defend his work and did not participate in the critique of his work unless asked a question.  At the end, the photographer was allowed to ask questions to better understand what was said, but not to deefend his work or question the authority of anyone who made comments.  "This is crap."  OK  "what could I do to make it better?"  OK  "No it isn't."  Not allowed.

"Constructive advice comes down to how the critic imagines he'd have done it, that's all, back to where we came in."  Probably true.  However, a good art critic can review work he does/does not like and give an honest review of how well a piece does what it should.  I don't have to like Ansel Adams' photos to recognize the value or how well it is executed.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Rob C on December 16, 2006, 05:09:46 pm
I take all your points, Howie, but it still boils down to whether or not you believe that somebody else knows better than you do what you were trying to do.

I have to admit that there is room for instruction (as distinct from criticism) in matters such as technical competence - I think that was implied in my post - but one imagines that by the time people are posting their stuff online or otherwise submitting it for viewing that they will long have reached the point where they know what they are doing, where they want to go and how to get there. So, in that context at least, asking for criticism is more or less redundant: you have the tools, know how to use them, so what else can another person do for you? In my opinion, not a lot; they certainly can't teach you how to be an artist. That, I'm afraid, is in your genes or it isn't.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on December 16, 2006, 08:17:52 pm
Quote
I take all your points, Howie, but it still boils down to whether or not you believe that somebody else knows better than you do what you were trying to do.

I have to admit that there is room for instruction (as distinct from criticism) in matters such as technical competence - I think that was implied in my post - but one imagines that by the time people are posting their stuff online or otherwise submitting it for viewing that they will long have reached the point where they know what they are doing, where they want to go and how to get there. So, in that context at least, asking for criticism is more or less redundant: you have the tools, know how to use them, so what else can another person do for you? In my opinion, not a lot; they certainly can't teach you how to be an artist. That, I'm afraid, is in your genes or it isn't.

Ciao - Rob C
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True.  But then I wouldn't ask what you think if I didn't care.  I think many folks do that and then get angry when you tell them and it isn't waht they want to hear.  I used to work with a guy who said never ask how you are doing because soemone will tell you.  I am also amazed at how often someone else does have a better way of doing what I want to do.

I don't agree with artistry being genetic.  There is a lot that can be learned, both by the genetically gifted and challenged.  No, I will never be another Ansel Adams.  But I can be taught a lot about how to be.  I know I will never know so much that I cannot be taught something more.

I have the tools and still have plenty to learn about using them.

I learned from critiques.  I also learned that just becasue someone said the image should be thus and such, I didn't have to do that.  But I learned from the "why" that person thought that, not that they thought it.  I learn nothing from "That's crap." or "That's lovely."  It was the why that helped.  (I also learned not to submit a print that was not the best I could do at that time.)
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Rob C on December 17, 2006, 06:45:54 am
Howie

I suppose that the bottom line is that different people do things in different ways. I accept you getting something from others inputs whilst not being able to admit (honestly) to having had that experience for myself. It might well be that I had early experiences which taught me better than to trust outside opinion - I can't tell you for sure other than that I remember one such from my very brief membership of a camera club - I have always had very clear ideas of what I want to do and how to do it (I have often lacked the means, however, but that's something very else!). Possibly, too, being a pro it was never something that one could do without all the baggage of the competition getting to know about what one was doing and for whom.

On that other matter, of why other people did things as they did, it wouldn't have been something that would have interested me much; there are infinite ways of doing anything and I find that it is more than enough to concentrate on my own ways or notions. It isn't just a matter of self-belief, but for sure, without that by the ton you couldn't contemplate a life in this industry or, if you did, it couldn't last.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: jjj on December 17, 2006, 07:43:06 am
Quote
I take all your points, Howie, but it still boils down to whether or not you believe that somebody else knows better than you do what you were trying to do.

 ...but one imagines that by the time people are posting their stuff online or otherwise submitting it for viewing that they will long have reached the point where they know what they are doing, where they want to go and how to get there. So, in that context at least, asking for criticism is more or less redundant: you have the tools, know how to use them, so what else can another person do for you? In my opinion, not a lot; they certainly can't teach you how to be an artist. That, I'm afraid, is in your genes or it isn't.

Ciao - Rob C
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Another way of explaining how one's views can be very valid.
I'll use music to make point clearer.
I've just made a Drum and Bass track. I ask a musician friend whether or not he likes it. He offes comments or the technical side and the melody much about the track as he's a folk musician and dislikes modern dance music. I ask a drum and base DJ what he thinks and he says yeah it's OK, but for me it may need a bit of tweaking here and there to work in a club. He is someone the music is aimed at and if he doesn't like it then you know it has failed, though even within genres tasts vary. If the folk musician likes it, then you know you have a real winner. Just like when abtract painting appeals to someone who normally likes figurative painting. Something is good if it appeals to those who like that sort of thing. It is exceptional if it appeals to those outside of that group's taste/target audience.

As for in your genes or not, part of being able to be artistic is sometimes learning how to bring that part of you out. I never did art at school as I couldn't draw. But when I was 17 I got a camera and discovered I was indeed creative. Even so I still had to learn how best to be creative. Though I have to admit to being self taught. But when I've done some design work, sometimes a bit of feedback can be useful. Does the design work? Same with photos, some people may not be so keen. You take that image crop it slightly differently and reframe it and suddenly it's a lot bettter.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: howiesmith on December 17, 2006, 09:36:20 am
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It might well be that I had early experiences which taught me better than to trust outside opinion

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No need to just trusr others ideas or opinionr.  Check them out.

Someone says they like the image with a different crop.  Well, crop it that way and see if you agree.  If you do, no harm and you may have learned soemthing.  If you don't, no harm and you may have learned something.  Looks like no harm and a learning opportunity either way.  You don't have to just change the crop and accept it.

I try to accept very little or nothing without first checking it.  The web is filled with stuff offered by "experts" with no basis other than "I said so" or "I think so" or "It is my experience."  How valid is their experience, compared to yours or what you can/have verified?  What makes them an expert?

There are those that believe the earth is flat.  That just doesn't fit my experience even though they can sometime present their observations that help them believe.   Look at your back yard, they could be right.  Maps are "pictures" of the earth, and it appears flat.  Doesn't hurt to check it out yourself before you say yes or no.  You may learn something nre or confirm what you already know.

In school, I heard f=ma.  Checked it in the lab.  Looks pretty good.
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: ivan muller on December 22, 2006, 01:18:53 am
Hi
speaking of photography crits. I find it depends who its coming from. every photograph i take, in my mother in laws eyes are brilliant and wonderfull and superb etc etc. that doesnt help and really doesnt make me feel good. I discount it. But an honest crit from some ones whos work I respect and admire that I feel will be constructive no matter how negative. Reading crits on this site I allways try to find the websites of the critics to better judge their words. Howie would love to see your work!
thanks Ivan
Title: The difficulty of an honest critique
Post by: Chris_T on December 29, 2006, 09:32:58 am
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Anyone truly interested in the subject of critiques should read Criticizing Photographs, An Introduction to Understanding Images Fourth Edition, Terry Barrett, McGraw Hill, 2006.  One issue he deals with is the "intentional fallacy" - which takes the position of questioning that the artist actually knows his/her intent.
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I read the third edition of this book, and heartily recommend it to any serious photographers or photo critics.

Barret teaches photo/art criticism at Ohio State U, and reading this book is like attending his class (without homework assignments!). While the book focuses on how to critique (or appreciate) photographs, I learn a great deal about how to evaluate and present my work. IOW, I can now put myself in the shoes of the viewers and the critics. It helps tremendously for my upcoming exhibit in selecting and sequencing my prints to convey my intent.