Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: BradH on September 15, 2006, 03:44:59 pm
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I thought it was going to be announced today. Anyone heard any dates for availability?
http://www.pcsuperdeals.com/ProductView.as...819a7b&Refer=11 (http://www.pcsuperdeals.com/ProductView.asp?ProductID=a55773ce-82c6-4d4d-a2e4-cc1205819a7b&Refer=11)
http://www.sparco.com/cgi-bin/wfind2?spn=W19460 (http://www.sparco.com/cgi-bin/wfind2?spn=W19460)
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I thought it was going to be announced today. Anyone heard any dates for availability?
http://www.pcsuperdeals.com/ProductView.as...819a7b&Refer=11 (http://www.pcsuperdeals.com/ProductView.asp?ProductID=a55773ce-82c6-4d4d-a2e4-cc1205819a7b&Refer=11)
http://www.sparco.com/cgi-bin/wfind2?spn=W19460 (http://www.sparco.com/cgi-bin/wfind2?spn=W19460)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76479\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The what?
I believe you are about 10 days early.
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This is what Epson sent to me:
On September 27, we'll unveil our newest professional printer. We want to tell you
about a new printer that's going to get your adrenaline pumping, your heart racing
and your imagination soaring.
For starters, it looks cool. It's sleek, slim, stylish and space efficient. Think high-end sports car.
But, it's what's inside that will really raise your pulse rate. This engineering
marvel incorporates several radical new technologies. And, of course, it takes
full advantage of our already industry-renowned Epson UltraChrome K3™ inks.
We've saved the best for last. Wait till you see the price. We think you'll be not
just pleased, but amazed.
So mark your calendar. Set a reminder in your PDA. And, put a note on your
computer monitor — SEPTEMBER 27 — it's the official release date of what
promises to be a huge new leap forward in professional printing.
This is going to be exciting.
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Hopefully that will be the actual release date like they say and not an anouncement that it will be available in late November or something.
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will it really be the 3800? http://www.inkjetartcom/3800/ (http://www.inkjetartcom/3800/)
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Who cares what its called?
Just gimme a printer with K3 inks *and* the gloss optimiser and I'll be online to buy one asap.
However it wouldnt be too surprising to see a renewal of the 3000 series printers, which were A2 printers.
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Epson's 800 series printers wit the K3 inks are pretty good. I am yet to be convinced the HP and Canon inks are any better. HP and Canon do have some definite advantages. What Epson must do in order for many of us to upgrade, is to include both matte and gloss black inks (as in the 4000), fix the nozzle blocking problems ( as HP seem to have done), come up with a better matteblack ink- or introduce a 4th, deeper black . It would be nice too to be able to use the ink we pay for. I recently hacksawed open an "empty " 220 ml cartridge of LLK to do some spotting with , and poured out 40 ml of ink.
Let's see if Sep 27 delivers more than spin..
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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As it appears that Kirby Pucket has risen from the grave, signed for and absconed with my B9180 I might end up looking at this printer.
But the problem I have with Epson is that if I buy one and it clogs I'll smash it into a thousand pieces. They at least need to pay lip service to the clogging issue.
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Brian,
I am disturbed to learn that an "empty" cartridge contains 40ml of ink. I was always under the impression (perhaps erroneous) that when they sell you a 220ml cartridge they mean that you will get 220ml of usefulness out of it regardless of how much they purposely leave in the cartridge when their firmware tells you it is "empty". They do leave some ink behind for technical reasons that they have explained. But if in fact we only get say 180 ml of printing from it, I need to increase the price per ml in my costing model accordingly. I shall contact Epson America and ask this question - it will be interesting to see whether I get an answer, and if so, what.
Dark Penguin and Brian,
What you think is clogging may not actually be clogging. It is more likely absence of ink from the lines because of air bubbles or the ink dropping back from the print head; then you engage cleaning cycles to force ink through the lines to the head. The impact of course is the same: wasted ink - and lots of it. There is no doubt in my mind that Epson is very well aware of this problem even though they say little or nothing about it. There is also precious little information about the causes. The problem is we won't really know whether they have licked it until people buy the new model and use it for quite a few months. It will be another experiment.
Unless Epson has changed its ways, I'm not holding my breath about availability. They do have a track record of creating hype, then announcing an announcement date, then making the announcement about the availability date some time down the road, then sometime after the announced date providing a very small number of machines relative to the pent-up demand they have created, frustrating large numbers of customers, then finally gearing-up enough manufacturing to meet demand promptly - all of this cycle consuming many months of teeth-gnashing and finger-pounding on computer keyboards. Let us all relax, sit back and enjoy the ride.
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What are the odds that this may be a 17" B&W printer? The numbering scheme doesn't fit with the current printers and looking at the 3000, an upgrade to a B&W with both blacks and a couple grays could be an alternative.
Just an idle speculation.
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I am disturbed to learn that an "empty" cartridge contains 40ml of ink. I was always under the impression (perhaps erroneous) that when they sell you a 220ml cartridge they mean that you will get 220ml of usefulness out of it regardless of how much they purposely leave in the cartridge when their firmware tells you it is "empty".
This would be an interesting study - on how much usable ink on paper one actually gets from a cartridge. I don't think you can assume you only get 180 ml usefulness unless you actually track the ink-per-print for the life of that cartridge. Then you can see if it adds up close to 220, or if it is 260 or 180. Then of course there is all the ink that ends up in the waste tank as well!
Mark
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This would be an interesting study - on how much usable ink on paper one actually gets from a cartridge. I don't think you can assume you only get 180 ml usefulness unless you actually track the ink-per-print for the life of that cartridge. Then you can see if it adds up close to 220, or if it is 260 or 180. Then of course there is all the ink that ends up in the waste tank as well!
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Unfortunately, I think you are correct about this. I say *unfortunately* because just now I don't know whether one can access data in the firmware that shows session by session how many ml are actually evacuated *on prints* from each cartridge before it is declared *empty*. This is one aspect that I would like to clarify with Epson if I can. I can tell from nozzle checks how much total ink is used between each nozzle check, but that does not tabulate this consumption on a per cartridge basis.
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The 40 ml I had left in a 220ml cartridge would be insufficient evidence from a statistical point of view to mount a claim of any sort on. I have though, hacked open other cartridges and found quite a lot of ink , but haven't measured it. I will do so in future and suggest others on this forum might like to do the same. We could then come up with something useful. The 7800/9800 cartridges are pressurised and one wold expect them to deliver most of the ink and more than the non-pressurised 4800. We need figures for both.
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Brian, it would seem to me that if someone is curious enough to throw away 100 dollars (US) the thing to do would be to pry open a NEW 220 and empty the ink into a measuring cup to see how much is there. Then when the next few cartridges show empty in the Epson status monitor open them and measure how much residual ink there is. If after doing this with several *empty* cartridges the amount of residual shows small enough variance, it would be good enough to subtract the average residual of these *empty* carts from the measured amount of the wasted full cartridge, the difference being the usable quantity. Any takers?
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Another possibility to finding out how much ink is used from a cartridge (which is almost free) would be to do some differential weighing. Only assumption would be that the density of ink is close to 1, this would allow the extrapolation of the mass back to volumes. For an approximation the mass of an empty cartridge could be compared the mass of a full cartridge; the difference should be pretty close the mL of ink used. To get a more precise measurement the cartridge could be weighed just before going into the printer and compared to the mass once that cartridge is empty according to the printer. No need to waste a new cartridge. All you need is a 2-3 decimal place scientific scale. I have been tempted to do this and see how much ink I get with the R800 cartridges. To improve the calculation the left over ink in a cartridge could be used to do the density calculations ... that would be a little more involved though. Another possibility for the 4800 is you can find out how much ink has been used in mL during a certain print, get a starting mass and final mass and you can then relate mass to volume. Let’s hope the density of each colour is consistent . Just a thought, to save more needless waste of ink.
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For what its worth Mark, with two months of usage, I have not had one nozzle problem with the iPF5000. I've only replaced one cartridge so far ... the GREY, but when I replaced it and shook it, it really did appear to be EMPTY.. how refreshing compared to my Epson 110 cartridges from the 4000 that always sounded like a half full aquarium when shaking the "empty" cartridge.
Brian,
I am disturbed to learn that an "empty" cartridge contains 40ml of ink. I was always under the impression (perhaps erroneous) that when they sell you a 220ml cartridge they mean that you will get 220ml of usefulness out of it regardless of how much they purposely leave in the cartridge when their firmware tells you it is "empty". They do leave some ink behind for technical reasons that they have explained. But if in fact we only get say 180 ml of printing from it, I need to increase the price per ml in my costing model accordingly. I shall contact Epson America and ask this question - it will be interesting to see whether I get an answer, and if so, what.
Dark Penguin and Brian,
What you think is clogging may not actually be clogging. It is more likely absence of ink from the lines because of air bubbles or the ink dropping back from the print head; then you engage cleaning cycles to force ink through the lines to the head. The impact of course is the same: wasted ink - and lots of it. There is no doubt in my mind that Epson is very well aware of this problem even though they say little or nothing about it. There is also precious little information about the causes. The problem is we won't really know whether they have licked it until people buy the new model and use it for quite a few months. It will be another experiment.
Unless Epson has changed its ways, I'm not holding my breath about availability. They do have a track record of creating hype, then announcing an announcement date, then making the announcement about the availability date some time down the road, then sometime after the announced date providing a very small number of machines relative to the pent-up demand they have created, frustrating large numbers of customers, then finally gearing-up enough manufacturing to meet demand promptly - all of this cycle consuming many months of teeth-gnashing and finger-pounding on computer keyboards. Let us all relax, sit back and enjoy the ride.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77015\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Another possibility to finding out how much ink is used from a cartridge (which is almost free) would be to do some differential weighing. <snip> [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77128\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
An interesting concept. You could weigh a full cartridge, use it, then weigh it with the residue, then crack the cartridge, pour the residue into a test tube, measure it and weigh it, dump the ink, refill the test tube with water to the same level, measure and weigh, to figure the density; then wash out the cartridge, allow to dry, and weigh it. A little subtraction and voila. This strikes me as something that any undergrad chemistry lab could do, and it'd be a service.
JC
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Tony, that's good to hear. I know from at least one other user as well that the IPF5000 does not require these repeated and intensive cleaning cycles to keep the ink lines full and the nozzles unclogged. Experience on the Epson 4800 is more mixed. Two people I know who use them - not even regularly - have no problems either, whereas with my 4800 at first I had very little difficulty, then episodes of major cleaning cycles developed, the machine was serviced, and since then is not clogging or dropping ink.
Last night I pryed open an "empty" Epson 220 cartridge. The contents is a plastic bag that holds the ink. There is a small amount of residual ink in it, which Epson does on purpose to prevent air being pumped into the printhead. The question is whether this residual is included or not in the 220 ml. I shall be measuring the amount of the residual today when I have a chance, but that won't answer the question. John Camp's suggestion is technically correct - just needs the tools to do it. Another approach is to ask Epson, which I also intend to do.
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For what its worth Mark, with two months of usage, I have not had one nozzle problem with the iPF5000. I've only replaced one cartridge so far ... the GREY, but when I replaced it and shook it, it really did appear to be EMPTY.. how refreshing compared to my Epson 110 cartridges from the 4000 that always sounded like a half full aquarium when shaking the "empty" cartridge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, but every time I turn the iPF5000 on, and at other times at random, it goes through some extensive "head" cleaning excercise. So maybe they don't clog, but you may be using just as much ink keeping the heads clear as the epson.
Not saying that's so ... but what is the printer doing for several minutes making all those noises that sound like a head cleaning?
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Yes, but every time I turn the iPF5000 on, and at other times at random, it goes through some extensive "head" cleaning excercise. So maybe they don't clog, but you may be using just as much ink keeping the heads clear as the epson.
Not saying that's so ... but what is the printer doing for several minutes making all those noises that sound like a head cleaning?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's cleaning, but probably using little ink.
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Not saying that's so ... but what is the printer doing for several minutes making all those noises that sound like a head cleaning?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know, it is agravating after a while but the alternative --trying to clean a badly clogged printhead-- is far worse. I trust the manufacturers are doing their best to keep the printer working at top quality. It's just that printhead nozzles are very small and very delicate. Clogging is in my estimate one of the current issues with inkjet printers. One I'd like to see fixed. My 4800 sometimes needs 3 full sheets of letter size paper until the printhead test comes out perfect. The good news is that I never get banding while printing after that. I live in Arizona where the climate is very dry so this is most likely part of the problem, but it wasn't as bad with the previous generations of Epson printers.
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Experience on the Epson 4800 is more mixed. Two people I know who use them - not even regularly - have no problems either, whereas with my 4800 at first I had very little difficulty, then episodes of major cleaning cycles developed, the machine was serviced, and since then is not clogging or dropping ink.
My problems first starting appearing on my 4800 when cartridges were low (like less than 10% remaining). Before that, I would suffer an occasional clog, but nothing that 2 or 3 manual nozzle checks wouldn't clear. Then I had to resort to the Auto Nozzle Check procedure to clear some of the clogs. Then it degraded into a fully clogged nozzle and after about 8 auto-nozzle checks - I just swapped the cartridge and things seem to be back in action. But I had to scrap ink before it told me to because of the clog, which irritated me considerably. I would consider myself an infrequent user depending on my print orders. One week I might print quite a lot, but then nothing for 2-3 weeks. I think I am going to do nozzle checks every 2-3 days now whether I am printing or not, and see if that helps.
I have read so many other experiences, I don't really know what is the recommended care for this printer - leave it on, leave it off, nozzle checks every few days, puddle cleans (?!), auto clean on/off - UGH!!
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grey is the first one for me too.
Gary
For what its worth Mark, with two months of usage, I have not had one nozzle problem with the iPF5000. I've only replaced one cartridge so far ... the GREY, but when I replaced it and shook it, it really did appear to be EMPTY.. how refreshing compared to my Epson 110 cartridges from the 4000 that always sounded like a half full aquarium when shaking the "empty" cartridge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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My problems first starting appearing on my 4800 when cartridges were low (like less than 10% remaining). Before that, I would suffer an occasional clog, but nothing that 2 or 3 manual nozzle checks wouldn't clear. Then I had to resort to the Auto Nozzle Check procedure to clear some of the clogs. Then it degraded into a fully clogged nozzle and after about 8 auto-nozzle checks - I just swapped the cartridge and things seem to be back in action. But I had to scrap ink before it told me to because of the clog, which irritated me considerably. I would consider myself an infrequent user depending on my print orders. One week I might print quite a lot, but then nothing for 2-3 weeks. I think I am going to do nozzle checks every 2-3 days now whether I am printing or not, and see if that helps.
I have read so many other experiences, I don't really know what is the recommended care for this printer - leave it on, leave it off, nozzle checks every few days, puddle cleans (?!), auto clean on/off - UGH!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've been working intensively on this range of issues. It is true there is alot of contradictory advice out there. Some hypotheses are more operational than others. From careful observation and alot of discussion with Epson staff, discussion with retailers, reading several technical papers and discussion on several forums, etc., my summary take on all this is as follows: (1) dry environments are worse than more humid environments. The printer should sit in about 40% humidity. If necessary, use a humidifier in the room. (2) The usage of the machine can be an important determinant of performance. These machines like to be used frequently and heavily. They are production units. (3) The best way of ensuring the head is properly capped after use (to prevent air from drying it) is to turn it off when not in use. (4) If you need to run cleaning cycles DO NOT DO SO IN AUTOMATIC MODE. Run the cleaning cycles one at a time, and between each cleaning cycle make a print. This prevents the cleaning cycles from sucking the channels dry and telling you there is no ink flowing through the affected channel. It should reduce the number of cycles needed. (5) The Epson 4800 is a much better performer than the 4000 in respect of cleaning cycle requirements. (6) Low cartridges should be irrelevant. I always run my cartridges to *empty* and have NEVER observed cleaning cycle requirements correlated with emptied cartridges. In any case the cartridges are never empty. About 40 ml of ink remains in them when you must change them, precisely to prevent air being sucked through the printhead. (7) Do not do puddle cleans. They put the integrity of the printhead at risk. (8) Leave auto-clean OFF. (9) Do not acccept Power Clean prompts unless all else has failed. (10) With all of this, if your printer still fails to work smoothly and efficiently, send Epson directly to Jail, they won't pass Go and they won't collect 200 dollars until you replace your next two cartridges (short-term revenge because their Monopoly is coming to an end anyhow). Apart from all that, Happy Printing.
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Mark's advice is very accurate. Your environment makes a huge difference. Here, in Arizona, even with humidifier the dryness is an obstacle. I think these machines are finicky when it comes to printheads care!
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>>(short-term revenge because their Monopoly is coming to an end anyhow)
Insert evil laugh here ;-D
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Yes, but every time I turn the iPF5000 on, and at other times at random, it goes through some extensive "head" cleaning excercise. So maybe they don't clog, but you may be using just as much ink keeping the heads clear as the epson.
Not saying that's so ... but what is the printer doing for several minutes making all those noises that sound like a head cleaning?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Wayne,
Not sure why, but I don't have that experience with my 5000. Perhaps because I just leave it on all the time (or at least most of the time). What it does do is go into sleep mode and occasionally, when it wakes up, it does sound like there may be a nozzle "exercise" going on, but it appears to be of short duration and overall an infrequent occurence. After having 3 Epson 4000's, I'm very pleased with the absence of nozzle/ink issues so far with the 5000. Another factor that may come into play with the Canon is that the printhead techology is very different than the Epson's... I believe it is a thermal / bubble type head technology vs the piezo heads on the Epsons.
Tony
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Mark's advice is very accurate. Your environment makes a huge difference. Here, in Arizona, even with humidifier the dryness is an obstacle. I think these machines are finicky when it comes to printheads care!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77302\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Also agree that Mark seems to be on the mark. And Alain's comment about dry environments is also a real issue in my opinion. All of my 4000's had problems which were probably aggravated by the fact that I live in Santa Fe at 7000 ft and LOW humidity. My 4000's seem to work best when I did a nozzle check every day, whether printing or not, and when using a humidifier (especially in the winter).
Mark's comment about puddling is curious. Epson techs instructed me to do so, but now that I think about it, my last 4000 became useless (faint VERTICAL streaks - magenta and cyan) not long after doing one of those puddling exercises ???? Hmmm. Epson could never figure out what the problem was and I was not interested in "paying" for a refurb. Anyway, I'm wondering about that puddling exercise now ?? Academic at this point as my last 4000 is long gone and the Canon seems to be doing fine (other than its annoying interface which I'm actually getting use to).
Cheers,
Tony
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My experience pretty much parallels Tony's. I've had mine wake up and do a short cleaning cycle a couple times, but only when I haven't been printing much. No clogs to report in the last 3 months. The humidity here is usualy around 25% but has been in the teens the past few days. I'm sure the humidity is even lower at Tony's location.
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Mark's comment about puddling is curious. Epson techs instructed me to do so, but now that I think about it, my last 4000 became useless (faint VERTICAL streaks - magenta and cyan) not long after doing one of those puddling exercises ???? Hmmm. ............. Anyway, I'm wondering about that puddling exercise now ??
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The only liquid intervention that Epson ever recommended to me was to very slightly dampen (not saturate) the pad under the print-head to retain a bit of moisture exactly in that area. I tried it and it did nothing either good or bad. If this is over-done water can seep into the printhead and according to a technical paper I read on the internal workings of piezo-electric printheads, water can wreck them.
It is correct that Canon's (and HP's) printhead technology is completely different from Epson's. I strongly suspect that a good part of the difference in performance with respect to clogging/ink droppages between these machines - and we wil most likely see also favoring the HP B9180 - is attributable to the printhead technology. According to the same papers I read, piezo-electric technology is prone to difficulty if air gets into the ink flow and reaches the printhead. This means that assuming Epson sticks with its piezo-electric technology (which is most likely given their often-stated conviction that it produces the best results - something I am sure will not go unchallenged) one hopes they will have found techniques for mitigating this problem with the new 3800. That would be in the interest of providing us consumers with yet another viable choice within an inkset we kind of know.
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(4) If you need to run cleaning cycles DO NOT DO SO IN AUTOMATIC MODE. Run the cleaning cycles one at a time, and between each cleaning cycle make a print.
Mark - any idea why? The Auto Nozzle check is a pretty slick feature (that I manually select to run), with that little electric eye checking if the nozzle is printing ok. I guess I don't know if when the auto-nozzle check detects a problem and it moves over to clean if it is any different than if I do a manual nozzle check and tell it to clean.
Thanks for the other tips, I have been following them for the most part.
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Mark - any idea why? The Auto Nozzle check is a pretty slick feature (that I manually select to run), with that little electric eye checking if the nozzle is printing ok. I guess I don't know if when the auto-nozzle check detects a problem and it moves over to clean if it is any different than if I do a manual nozzle check and tell it to clean.
Thanks for the other tips, I have been following them for the most part.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes - the reason why is that the cleaning process itself can dry out one or more areas in the printhead that should be inked, so the result shows as if there is a blocked or empty channel. When you make a print between cycles the printing process can replenish the head using far less ink than another cleaning cycle. I received this advice from Epson America.
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have had several epsons (1200 series, 2000 series) to the 4000 and the 4800...i have not had any clogging issues with the 4800...yes sometimes i run a manual cleaning cycle, usually once and everything is perfect..i never turn the printer off..never unless i leave for a month and run a clean after, which hasn't happened yet...i use the 220ml cartidges..much cheaper anyway...i keep the temperature/humidity constant..better for the printer AND the paper...i find that when using matte papers i have no clogging at all, it seems to be more of an issue (if i can even call it that) when i print large runs (200-400 8x10s) of superglossy...all in all the 4800 is a superb printer, it just performs so well..great quality, fast and relatively cheap to run and just runs and runs...it is the first epson i have had that does not make me lust after the next, better one....i wonder what the 3800 will be? a 13" 4800?..the step up to the pro series is noticeable...cheaper to run and much more relyable heads...
only thing i would change about the 4800: gigabit ethernet..10/100 is a joke...
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Go to:
http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_09-26-06.html (http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_09-26-06.html)
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The 3800 is certainly an interesting compromise. It looks like it could be an ideal entry-level system for someone wanting to move to a 17” printer with low-volume printing requirements.
If I were still waiting for a 17” printer, I would be greatly disappointed in this offering. The lack of a roll paper feed would be the first deal-killer for me. If I never printed anything longer than 22” this would be fine, but a lot of my prints come out at close to 30”.
The other drawbacks I see are the higher ink cost over the 4800 and 5000 and the “ink-sharing” for black. There is still some waste when switching and a time delay also.
A nice printer, but I’m really glad I bought the Canon ipf5000.
I'm wondering what the 4800 replacement will look like.
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The 3800 is certainly an interesting compromise. It looks like it could be an ideal entry-level system for someone wanting to move to a 17” printer with low-volume printing requirements.
If I were still waiting for a 17” printer, I would be greatly disappointed in this offering. The lack of a roll paper feed would be the first deal-killer for me. If I never printed anything longer than 22” this would be fine, but a lot of my prints come out at close to 30”.
The other drawbacks I see are the higher ink cost over the 4800 and 5000 and the “ink-sharing” for black. There is still some waste when switching and a time delay also.
A nice printer, but I’m really glad I bought the Canon ipf5000.
I'm wondering what the 4800 replacement will look like.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Having bought your Canon and likely gotten used to its interface, you're done. No need to even think about it.
For the rest of us, pending further news it looks like this: The Canon for those who want ALL the features and don't mind the price differential (printer plus roll feeder). For the remainder, a choice between an Epson 3800 and an HP B9180.
The B9180 takes it for price, but not for people who print larger than 13 inches on either dimension. That leaves the Epson 3800 for them.
More than ever before I'm convinced that flexibility to switch papers is important, so I won't consider a change from my 4800 to one of these two printers a step down. It isn't "entry-level".
Same K-3 inks on the Epson, new dithering technology - should be fine. But I'm suspicious of the need to still clean-out some ink to switch media. My goodness, one would think they'd have learned their lesson by now.
Before I buy either printer (HP or Epson), I'll wait for some comparison results to be published. If the 3800 print quality is that much better than HP's I'll suffer the ink change inconvenience if it is really as little as advertised; if the print quality is about equal, I'll buy an HP. I guess each of us looking for a way out of the 4800 straightjacket will be developing our own logic about what to buy. These are good times - choice is upon us.
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More than ever before I'm convinced that flexibility to switch papers is important, so I won't consider a change from my 4800 to one of these two printers a step down. It isn't "entry-level".
These are good times - choice is upon us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77522\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I used the term "entry-level" because I'm not convinced that this is a professional level printer given the size of the ink cartridges and the lack of a roll feeder.
I still think that epson needs to come with with a 4800 replacement that offers both blacks. True, my decision has been made in favor of the Canon, but competition is good and spurs the manufacturers to upgrade and improve their products. Perhaps this may even spur Canon to produce a decent manual for the 5000.
Good times indeed.
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I used the term "entry-level" because I'm not convinced that this is a professional level printer given the size of the ink cartridges and the lack of a roll feeder.
I still think that epson needs to come with with a 4800 replacement that offers both blacks. True, my decision has been made in favor of the Canon, but competition is good and spurs the manufacturers to upgrade and improve their products. Perhaps this may even spur Canon to produce a decent manual for the 5000.
Good times indeed.
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Dave, how large are Canon's ink cartridges? And how many pros are using Epson 2200/2400s with even very much smaller cartridges? I don't think the size of the cartridge matters to all those professionals who are either not doing volume printing or for whom the cost of ink is a trivial part of their cost and pricing structures. The lack of a roll holder will be an issue for those who need roll holders. What determines whether the 3800 will be professionally useful is the quality, consistency and efficiency of output. We'll know that soon enough.
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Dave, how large are Canon's ink cartridges?
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The 5000 cartridges are 130ml. There is a price comparison in one of the inkjetart articles. The 5000 and 4800 are pretty close with the 3800 being higher per ml.
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The 5000 cartridges are 130ml. There is a price comparison in one of the inkjetart articles. The 5000 and 4800 are pretty close with the 3800 being higher per ml.
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David, yes - thanks for reminding me - I recall both now. The cost per ml of ink comparison by InkjetArt is partially useful - the other essential element of the costing arithmetic is the quantity of ink used per square foot of coverage on the papers one uses. It could differ considerably from one machine/technology to another. I know it well for my Epson 4800 by now and published some results on this website, but it takes many months of use to develop a reliable estimate, so we won't know the ink costs per print for these new machines until users collect and analyse a large enough data set over the coming months.
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David, yes - thanks for reminding me - I recall both now. The cost per ml of ink comparison by InkjetArt is partially useful - the other essential element of the costing arithmetic is the quantity of ink used per square foot of coverage on the papers one uses. It could differ considerably from one machine/technology to another. I know it well for my Epson 4800 by now and published some results on this website, but it takes many months of use to develop a reliable estimate, so we won't know the ink costs per print for these new machines until users collect and analyse a large enough data set over the coming months.
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Well said Mark.
We're a day away from Photokina, so I suppose I can say that the HP LFP's are setting up in the right direction. Epson should follow suite with their LFP's soon after. The 3800 seems like a very reasonable prosumer-pro printer and if it's like the 9180 even though there is no roll, custom page sizes should allow it anyway.
HP will be late to answer the equivalent 3800, but at least it'll give them some time to add features to the new products that Epson have left out.
The Z printers are not in the same league of hardware so I cannot compare them. I also don't think the 4800 should be compared either as it is a true pro printer.
I do think Epson will include more print heads in their LFP's which will allow for multiple carts to print from onboard print heads without this rather silly head sharing. But the carriage design is such that to allow changeable carts and multiple heads for future slot ins is a big deal , one that HP has thought about. The possibilities are endless and promising for those who could afford it, price and space. It is not something that a small footprint printer will have if it has large cap. carts. Too many compromises in life.
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FWIW... Calumet (www.calumetphoto.com) is showing availble in 1-3 weeks. Their phone reps confirmed about 2 weeks or so.