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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: MLrgb on September 09, 2017, 05:04:11 PM

Title: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: MLrgb on September 09, 2017, 05:04:11 PM
Hello!
 I'm trying to transfer DNG files from Lightroom 5 to Affinity Photo. In Lightroom when I right click on the file I choose the software I want to use, after Lightroom gives me in file format only 3 choice  TIFF-PSD-JPEG. If I want to transfer a real DNG and not a conversion to TIFF I have to leave Lightroom and go in my main files which is annoying since i have many files to treat in many different folders. 
Thank for our your help!
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: scyth on September 09, 2017, 08:42:47 PM
Hello!
 I'm trying to transfer DNG files from Lightroom 5 to Affinity Photo. In Lightroom when I right click on the file I choose the software I want to use, after Lightroom gives me in file format only 3 choice  TIFF-PSD-JPEG. If I want to transfer a real DNG and not a conversion to TIFF I have to leave Lightroom and go in my main files which is annoying since i have many files to treat in many different folders. 
Thank for our your help!

I never used LR, but I believe there shall be some 3rd party LR plugins that implement such functionality - launch some 3rd party raw converter and feed it with a raw file you select in LR ... $0.02
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 10, 2017, 01:23:27 AM
You might try the "Open Directly" http://lightroomsolutions.com/plug-ins/open-directly/ (http://lightroomsolutions.com/plug-ins/open-directly/)plugin by John Beardsworth (who is a frequent contributor here).

The other option is to export a DNG file with the option to open another application in the post-processing section of the export dialog.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 01:21:24 PM
Affinity Photo will open a DNG. Not sure what the problem is.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Rhossydd on September 10, 2017, 01:26:57 PM
Not sure what the problem is.
Re-read the OP.
The problem is that you can't go straight to another editor (Affinity or anything else) with the 'edit in option with a DNG file from LR.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 01:48:51 PM
Re-read the OP.
The problem is that you can't go straight to another editor (Affinity or anything else) with the 'edit in option with a DNG file from LR.
You can open the DNG. Whatever proprietary settings one or the other raw converter provided is just that, proprietary. You're not going to transfer LR's parametric instructions to Affinity or vise versa. But both products can open that one DNG.
IF you want the LR edits, you have to render that data as a TIFF, PSD, JPEG anywhere outside LR/ACR. So again, I don't see the problem. Other than, we can't share proprietary parametric edits.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: john beardsworth on September 10, 2017, 02:29:12 PM
If you want to open the DNG itself, and only if you are on Mac, you can drag the DNG onto the other app's icon in the Dock. Or use that plugin.

So you can open the DNG itself, though you may as well adjust it entirely in LR and just use Affinity for Photoshop-style edits.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Rhossydd on September 10, 2017, 02:47:17 PM
So again, I don't see the problem.
You're still missing the point.
It's not possible to push a DNG file to another editor.
You can just push a PSD/TIFF/JPG straight to another editor, so why not in DNG format?
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 04:07:13 PM
You're still missing the point.
It's not possible to push a DNG file to another editor.
Sure it is. I did it today with the products under discussion.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 04:09:14 PM
You're still missing the point.
It's not possible to push a DNG file to another editor.
You can just push a PSD/TIFF/JPG straight to another editor, so why not in DNG format?
New term? Push a (fill in the blank) to (fill in the blank).
Is the word Open not sufficient?
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Rhossydd on September 10, 2017, 05:09:03 PM
Sure it is. I did it today with the products under discussion.
The 'product' under discussion in the OP is JUST Lightroom, it can't do what the poster wanted to do.
Quote
New term? Push a (fill in the blank) to (fill in the blank).
Is the word Open not sufficient?
No, it's not.
What the OP wants to do is use the 'edit in' function to output a file and in the same process open the application to open the file, quite possible for TIFF/PSD/JPG, but not possible to use the RAW DNG format.
'push'ing the file seems a reasonable way to describe how that process works. It's more involved than a simple 'open' command.

It's an omission in the possibilities that LR offers.

Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 05:33:08 PM
The 'product' under discussion in the OP is JUST Lightroom, it can't do what the poster wanted to do.No, it's not.
Sure it can.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 10, 2017, 07:56:07 PM
Sure it can.

Care to explain how do you open a DNG in other application from inside LR without exporting/rendering the file (or using John's plugin)?
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 08:36:29 PM
Care to explain how do you open a DNG in other application from inside LR without exporting/rendering the file (or using John's plugin)?
1. Your question is ridiculous as written. Kind of like your made up and ridiculous language about 'pushing'.
2. You can open a DNG in Affinity using File Open.
3.You can 'open' a DNG in LR by importing it into the database.
4. You can get LR to send a rendered, by LR image to Affinity using this process :
 
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 10, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
We already knew the existing options to open a DNG. In case you haven't noticed, my "ridiculous" question is the OP question.
And you can actually open the raw file if using a plugin such as the one referenced before. Also, DXO optics pro developed a plugin so you can open a RAW in DXO directly from LR
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 10, 2017, 09:10:45 PM
And you can actually open the raw file if using a plugin such as the one referenced before. Also, DXO optics pro developed a plugin so you can open a RAW in DXO directly from LR
You don't need a plug-in, you simply need software that understands DNG and Affinity Photo does.


As asked:  I'm trying to transfer DNG files from Lightroom 5 to Affinity Photo.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 10, 2017, 09:16:45 PM
I know (as well I'm sure other contributors to this thread know) that you don't need a plugin to open a DNG in affinity.
The plugin is required to "Open a DNG in Affinity directly from LR", as you do by choosing "Edit in" and open a TIFF, PSD or JPG in an external editor

It is actually you who have a serious issue with reading comprehension
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: ario on September 11, 2017, 12:02:02 AM
On a Mac it is enough to drag and drop the thumbnail from the Lr film strip into the Affinity icon in the dock, without the need of any plug-in. I do not know if anything similar is available in Windows.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: aduke on September 11, 2017, 01:10:59 AM
On Windows 7, I seem to be unable to drag a thumbnail from the filestrip to an Affinity Photo  icon in the task bar, but I can drag from an explorer window to the icon and open the file in Affinity.

So, there appears to be a difference in capabilities between the MAC and the Windows implementations of Lr.



Alan
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Rhossydd on September 11, 2017, 01:34:38 AM
4. You can get LR to send a rendered, by LR image to Affinity using this process :
You're still stubbornly missing the point. The OP doesn't want the file rendered, he wants to open a DNG directly through LR (the edit in command).
It can't do it.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 11, 2017, 04:27:23 AM
The OP doesn't want the file rendered, he wants to open a DNG directly through LR (the edit in command).
It can't do it.

The OP didn't specify, but we can assume, that he still wants to use LR only for its DAM features. If that is the case, he'd need a means to use LR to send the Raw DNG directly to Affinity Photo for Raw conversion and processing. That is apparently not possible with LR.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Denis de Gannes on September 11, 2017, 04:44:13 AM
The OP didn't specify, but we can assume, that he still wants to use LR only for its DAM features. If that is the case, he'd need a means to use LR to send the Raw DNG directly to Affinity Photo for Raw conversion and processing. That is apparently not possible with LR.

Cheers,
Bart
Agreed it's best for him to post a feature request at the appropriate Adobe Forum for Feature Requests and Bug Fixes. See the link below.
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/categories/photoshop_family_photoshop_lightroom
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: john beardsworth on September 11, 2017, 04:48:14 AM
The OP didn't specify, but we can assume, that he still wants to use LR only for its DAM features. If that is the case, he'd need a means to use LR to send the Raw DNG directly to Affinity Photo for Raw conversion and processing. That is apparently not possible with LR.

No, it is possible in certain circumstances, as described above. It's just a waste of effort.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Denis de Gannes on September 11, 2017, 05:31:08 AM
If you want to open the DNG itself, and only if you are on Mac, you can drag the DNG onto the other app's icon in the Dock. Or use that plugin.

So you can open the DNG itself, though you may as well adjust it entirely in LR and just use Affinity for Photoshop-style edits.

OK I am not a user of DNG myself but I am trying to keep informed.
What specifically are you saying and advising here?
If you drag the DNG file to the Affinity Application from the Lightroom film strip, it will open in Afinity?
Will Affinity apply any or all of metadata and edits applied in Lightroom and saved to the DNG file?
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: john beardsworth on September 11, 2017, 06:06:47 AM
OK I am not a user of DNG myself but I am trying to keep informed.
What specifically are you saying and advising here?

> If you drag the DNG file to the Affinity Application from the Lightroom film strip, it will open in Afinity?

Yes, as was said above, on a Mac you can drag a DNG onto any app in the Dock.

Sadly, on Windows Adobe have never enabled drag and drop to other apps. So on Windows, or if LR is in Full Screen mode (ie the Mac Dock is hidden), just use the plugin. For one app, it's free.

> Will Affinity apply any or all of metadata and edits applied in Lightroom and saved to the DNG file?

That wasn't the OPs question, of course. In any case, I don't use Affinity and can only answer generally. If you have saved metadata back to the DNG, it is possible for third party apps to read any metadata, even adjustment values, and also to display the adjusted preview that is embedded in the DNG. So in a third party app, you can see the results of your Lightroom edits. That's one advantage of DNG.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Denis de Gannes on September 11, 2017, 07:26:42 AM
> If you drag the DNG file to the Affinity Application from the Lightroom film strip, it will open in Afinity?

Yes, as was said above, on a Mac you can drag a DNG onto any app in the Dock.

Sadly, on Windows Adobe have never enabled drag and drop to other apps. So on Windows, or if LR is in Full Screen mode (ie the Mac Dock is hidden), just use the plugin. For one app, it's free.

> Will Affinity apply any or all of metadata and edits applied in Lightroom and saved to the DNG file?

That wasn't the OPs question, of course. In any case, I don't use Affinity and can only answer generally. If you have saved metadata back to the DNG, it is possible for third party apps to read any metadata, even adjustment values, and also to display the adjusted preview that is embedded in the DNG. So in a third party app, you can see the results of your Lightroom edits. That's one advantage of DNG.

Ok John, many thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: MLrgb on September 11, 2017, 07:45:02 AM
Thank you for your answers!
 especially Francisco, the Open Directly link was exactly what I needed.
Now my only concern is is to get my new TIFF fully develope back to Lightroom. I found a way it's a bit long but I will manage.

I also want to thank Rhossydd for holding the fort during my absence.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 11, 2017, 09:49:57 AM
You're still stubbornly missing the point. The OP doesn't want the file rendered, he wants to open a DNG directly through LR (the edit in command).
It can't do it.
You're still stubbornly missing the point! The OP can open the DNG in Affinity Photo. Affinity Photo can open DNG files, render them; done.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 11, 2017, 09:57:45 AM
If you drag the DNG file to the Affinity Application from the Lightroom film strip, it will open in Afinity?
Will Affinity apply any or all of metadata and edits applied in Lightroom and saved to the DNG file?
Yes on Mac, yes on Windows if one simply uses the open command.
No, as I already described. LR can open (render) the DNG or a raw of course. So can Affinity. But each does so uniquely using their own proprietary raw processing. You can have two renderings of a DNG from each product. You can render in one and send to the other. There are various ways to do this.
What you can't do with a DNG or any raw file is send it from one raw converter like ACR/LR to another (Affinity) and maintain the processing from product A to product B as well. Pick one for raw rendering, period. Render, send it to the other product (it's not raw any longer). LR and Affinity are using unique and proprietary raw to rendered pixel processing. True with any raw converter.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 11, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
Hello!
 I'm trying to transfer DNG files from Lightroom 5 to Affinity Photo.
Since you're using DNG, see if you have these settings invoked and their possible features/options when moving DNG files around (the ability to maintain and extract a JPEG of the current proprietary rendering):
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Denis de Gannes on September 12, 2017, 10:54:11 PM
Yes on Mac, yes on Windows if one simply uses the open command.
No, as I already described. LR can open (render) the DNG or a raw of course. So can Affinity. But each does so uniquely using their own proprietary raw processing. You can have two renderings of a DNG from each product. You can render in one and send to the other. There are various ways to do this.
What you can't do with a DNG or any raw file is send it from one raw converter like ACR/LR to another (Affinity) and maintain the processing from product A to product B as well. Pick one for raw rendering, period. Render, send it to the other product (it's not raw any longer). LR and Affinity are using unique and proprietary raw to rendered pixel processing. True with any raw converter.

OK this is also my understanding.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: rdonson on September 13, 2017, 03:54:58 PM
Hello!
 I'm trying to transfer DNG files from Lightroom 5 to Affinity Photo. In Lightroom when I right click on the file I choose the software I want to use, after Lightroom gives me in file format only 3 choice  TIFF-PSD-JPEG. If I want to transfer a real DNG and not a conversion to TIFF I have to leave Lightroom and go in my main files which is annoying since i have many files to treat in many different folders. 
Thank for our your help!

Here's how I interpret the OP's request.

From Lightroom "Develop" or "Library" use "Edit In" which will create a DNG and send it to Affinity Photo. 

This approach is possible if you choose TIFF, PSD or JPG in the configuration "Preferences" "External Editors" in Lightroom.  DNG is NOT an option for this.  Therefore Lightroom won't perform the task he's looking for with "Edit In". 
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Hoggy on September 15, 2017, 01:48:14 AM
I'll also vouch for the fact that what the OP wants to do is NOT possible in the fashion he mentions.

He apparently does NOT want or care if any LR adjustments are present in the sent DNG.  He wants to just use "Edit In" when right-clicking an image in the grid, filmstrip, loupe, develop module, etc..  And to 'send/push' (semantics) the plain original DNG straight to Affinity without any adjustments..  He does NOT want to send a rendered file to Affinity, PERIOD -- just the original [DNG] file.

This is plainly just not possible in this particular fashion.  While it's true that there are many ways to skin a cat, this is one way in which the cat can NOT be skinned.  It would need to be a feature request.

The only [universal] ways I know can do this are via plugins or export "As Original" (or also as DNG, for DNG files).  For instance, there is a plugin for DXO to send the original file to DXO and then bring the rendered file back into LR - and also ones for ON1, Photomatix, and possibly others too.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 15, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
DNG is NOT an option for this.  Therefore Lightroom won't perform the task he's looking for with "Edit In".
IT can't be an option, it's a DNG which is raw data in this context. The raw HAS to be rendered to appear in Affinity, Photoshop or anything else that can't decode raw data! Now like ACR inside of Photoshop, Affinity can do so. There's nothing to pass within a DNG expect maybe proprietary instructions; you can do this between ACR and LR, two Adobe products. And you can't with Affinity or any non Adobe products.


It's like asking why LR can't pass an illustrator file to that product as a bitmap instead of a vector. There are at least two major reasons why LR can't do this. Both having to do with the file formats.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 15, 2017, 10:29:29 AM
He apparently does NOT want or care if any LR adjustments are present in the sent DNG.  He wants to just use "Edit In" when right-clicking an image in the grid, filmstrip, loupe, develop module, etc..  And to 'send/push' (semantics) the plain original DNG straight to Affinity without any adjustments..  He does NOT want to send a rendered file to Affinity, PERIOD -- just the original [DNG] file.
HE (and I) can do this; open the DNG in Affinity.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Rhossydd on September 15, 2017, 02:21:35 PM
The raw HAS to be rendered to appear in Affinity, Photoshop or anything else that can't decode raw data!
But back in reply #3 you said;
Affinity Photo will open a DNG. Not sure what the problem is.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: andrewrodney on September 15, 2017, 10:01:56 PM
But back in reply #3 you said;
Correct. Affinity renders the raw.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: rdonson on September 23, 2017, 03:17:54 PM
I've been thinking about this and there may be a way for this to work but it's kind of obtuse and requires programming talent but you lose any Lr adjustments.  I think about the way that Iridient X-Transformer works with Lightroom.

Using "File" "Plug-in Extras" you select Iridient X-Transformer -"Process Selected RAF(s) to DNG" .  --- this invokes X-Transformer and using the fact that it then knows filename; drive, folder, etc it ingests the RAF file, applies whatever options you've set up in X-Transformer then returns the DNG neatly to Lightroom.   

Some variation on this might work to get DNG files to Affinity Photo from Lightroom but the work would be on Serif to do the programming.

This becomes moot if Serif ever adds content management to Affinity Photo and the ability to read and ingest the Lightroom catalog.  Right now Affinity Photo is trying very hard to be a very usable alternative to PS. 

 





Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: aduke on September 23, 2017, 04:55:21 PM
A procedure to export a DNG from LR to Affinity is to right-click the thumbnail either in the film-strip or in the grid display, select export then select export to DNG. The result is a DNG file in the directory of choice that is, apparently, identical to the LR version. Affinity was not bothered by the existence of LR metadata changes.

Alan
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Chris Kern on September 23, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Using "File" "Plug-in Extras" you select Iridient X-Transformer -"Process Selected RAF(s) to DNG" .  --- this invokes X-Transformer and using the fact that it then knows filename; drive, folder, etc it ingests the RAF file, applies whatever options you've set up in X-Transformer then returns the DNG neatly to Lightroom.   

The file container may be DNG after processing by X-Transformer, but my understanding is that the raw data originally emitted by the camera have been demosaiced.  In other words, the Iridient DNG file apparently contains pixels rather than RGB luminance data from the camera's sensor.

Phil Harvey's Exiftool (https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/) reports an attribute in these Iridient DNG files of "Photometric Interpretation: Linear Raw."  I don't know precisely what that means in this context; the official U.S. Library of Congress documentation (https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000188.shtml) for the DNG format does not define "Linear Raw" except to say that a DNG file may contain that attribute "when produced by certain cameras or by de-mosaicing CFA data."  [Emphasis supplied.]  And near the end, in its notes section, the Library's documentation states:

Quote
"Raw DNG" and "Linear DNG." The photographer Barry Pearson writes that DNG files are well understood to contain "mosaiced" sensor data (typically from a Bayer array), and he calls this format Raw DNG. But he reminds readers of another option, Linear DNG, said to be "a rarer variety of DNG, containing RGB image data (or not just RGB!) arranged in a rectilinear format. (Most practical examples of Linear DNG hold RGB image data, but it isn't a constraint, and 4 or more colours are allowed. For example, A Linear DNG obtained by converting the raw file from a Sony F828 has an extra channel, 'Aqua,' rather like Cyan). This RGB image data may have come from demosaiced raw image data, or from another source such as TIFF or JPEG or something else. (There is little difference between 'demosaiced' and 'never mosaiced')."

Jeff Schewe, writing in a 2005 issue of PhotoshopNews.com reported that Adobe's DNG convertor application "allows you to either keep the DNG in the un-demosaiced form or to demosaic the file and convert to a linear file. Generally, you'll want to keep the file in its un-demosaiced form as there is a space savings. Linear DNGs have already been converted to RGB files and therefore are larger." The article as presented includes an inserted editor's note: "[Digital imaging expert] Bruce Fraser sent the following comment regarding Linear DNG: 'The only reason to use Linear DNG is to feed the file to a DNG reader that can't understand the particular flavor of DNG that DNG Converter creates for the specific camera, or to act as an interchange format—e.g., lens correx with DxO can write out a linear DNG that ACR can read. This is typically NOT an option people want, not because of size considerations, but because it's no longer really raw—it's half-baked. All the operations that take place during demosaicing are set in stone and can't be redone.'"

So when you convert a raw file from the camera manufacturer's native format to the DNG format with the Adobe converter, you can preserve the raw data and just move it into a different container.  But X-Transformer performs various image transformations before producing its DNG—for example sharpening, which many of its users believe it does better than Lightroom—and to do that it presumably needs pixels.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: rdonson on September 24, 2017, 07:58:57 AM
Yes, I use Iridient because I think the demosaicing and sharpness is preferable to Adobe for my Fuji files.

MacPhun provides a Plug-In for Lightroom for Luminar that works as I described. Fuji owners also use this.

The real point is that a plug-in can be created that would satisfy the OPs desire. The OP wanted a straightforward workflow that did not introduce added steps.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: john beardsworth on September 24, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
The real point is that a plug-in can be created that would satisfy the OPs desire.

Which was done about 8 years ago.... See reply #2.
Title: Re: DNG transfer from Lightroom to 3rd party software
Post by: Chris Kern on September 24, 2017, 11:51:20 AM
Which was done about 8 years ago.... See reply #2.

Yes, the "process-to-DNG" functionality offered by Iridient X-Transformer does what your Open Directly plug-in does—albeit less flexibly than your approach because the Iridient method only allows the user to launch X-Transformer to process the raw file while your plug-in works with any program.

If the goal is to launch a different product from Lightroom, so that product rather than Lightroom can demosaic the raw data, process it in some fashion, and then return the pixels to Lightroom for either additional processing or just asset management, your plug-in does the trick in a very general manner.

If the goal is to have Lightroom demosaic the raw file and then have another program do something with the pixels, Lightroom's Edit-In functionality works just fine.  It doesn't matter whether you pass the pixels to the other program in a DNG or a TIFF file format because when used in this way they are both just containers for the pixels that were rendered by Lightroom.  (My understanding is that when used as containers for rendered images, the DNG and TIFF formats offer essentially the same functionality.)

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that DNG doesn't mean the same thing as "raw."  A DNG file can be a container for raw data (the RGB or whatever luminance values recorded by a light sensor) or it can be a container for pixels.  But in the latter case, the user needs to decide which program is going to produce those pixels.  You only get one shot at that.  Afterwards, you can pass the pixels back-and-forth as many times as you like and in whatever file format you prefer, and use multiple programs to modify them.