Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: RSL on August 21, 2017, 11:55:02 am
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Since The Coffee Corner has been taken over by "Trump II" and related head-rattlings I'll post this link here. Just finished this essay: Touching the Seer (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/TouchingTheSeer.html).
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WOW! I have read many of your website postings, Russ, but Touching the Seer is certainly one of your best and, I think, touches the seer itself. By the way, not to change the subject, but since you have such a wonderful philosophical, artistic, and technical sense, you might enjoy Now: The Physics of Time (https://www.amazon.com/Now-Physics-Time-Richard-Muller/dp/0393285235/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1503339778&sr=1-1&keywords=now+physics+of+time) by Richard Muller. It touched the seer in me and it addresses the metaphysical threshold and limitations of modern physics. I guarantee you'll like it and, like I did, learn something astounding and a propos of your post.
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Thanks, David. It looks fascinating. I'm going to scoop it up. In response, I'd send you to THIS (http://www.russ-lewis.com/Poetry/Poems/ThereNeverIsANow.html), which I wrote 25 years ago.
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Nice work, Russ.
It's a shame you don't understand Italian. The film La Dolce Vita does much of what you write about in its Italian version. I have watched it several times, both straight and with English subtitles, and only the straight Italian language version does it (for me!). Not only does the subbed version suffer from language accuracy problems (even a bit of censorship), but also from inevitable compression. Perhaps much of the power of the film derives from what's not said, but exists within the silences and even sources directly from the locations. Having said which, the musical theme is just wonderful in evoking Rome, and probably an Italy that has vanished along with the style of music. Certainly, if one watches La Grande Bellezza, the contemporary version of much the same idea, the music is quite different but yes, it also has a somewhat different job to do. Film music must be a wonderful thing to be able to produce. The ability to add successfully such a defining level to another set of artistic works is quite a mixture of talent and responsibility.
Rob
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Thanks, Rob. But I don't agree that I should learn Italian. I sometimes read English translations of librettos, and — let's face it — the stories in most grand opera are ridiculous, stilted, silly. At the same time, the music is magnificent. I want those voices to be musical instruments, not story-tellers. To me, the finest musical instrument in the world is the human voice.
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Thanks, David. It looks fascinating. I'm going to scoop it up. In response, I'd send you to THIS (http://www.russ-lewis.com/Poetry/Poems/ThereNeverIsANow.html), which I wrote 25 years ago.
I read it a couple years ago! That's what I meant. And given that poem, boy, are you in for a treat when you read Muller's book. Just promise me you'll stick with it until the final chapter.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
It's fascinating how limited philosophy has turned out to be for exactly this reason: we as humans seem to be pretty limited in our imagination. We can't imagine the infinite because we've never seen it; we can't even imagine very large numbers of things... even the human population of earth is pretty much beyond real visceral comprehension, I believe.
Sometimes, science drags us screaming out of our comfortable philosophies via something like the Michelson-Morley experiment: the Ether didn't exist, but but... it must. So then along came Einstein, and time was just a different direction in 4 dimensional space, and different speeds are just different directions. Then take it a little further to think about falling elevators with physicists in them and we found we were living in curved four dimensional space. Then that just maybe the signature that distinguishes time from the other directions might not have always been there, and we have the Hartle-Hawking model where we find that time is just an epi-phenomenon, that somehow very early on there was no time, in which case it doesn't even make sense to say "early": time didn't exist anymore than smart phones did in 1850, the universe was getting on just fine, then something happened and somehow there was some notion of future and past.
That without even going near quantum mechanics, which I'm not convinced anyone understands in their gut.
Maybe that's how art works: it rattles something in our mental cupboards that we didn't know was there, that we hadn't had reason to imagine. In which case it might be an image of humans in a diner and memories of our youth, or it might be abstract splashings of colour that reflect something, not from the early universe but about how our neurones evolved to deal with some survival challenge when we were still more comfortable in trees...
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That without even going near quantum mechanics, which I'm not convinced anyone understands in their gut.
Read the Now book by Muller and you'll see that is exactly what they are trying to understand... and getting quite uncomfortable by the way. :)
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Thanks, Rob. But I don't agree that I should learn Italian. I sometimes read English translations of librettos, and — let's face it — the stories in most grand opera are ridiculous, stilted, silly. At the same time, the music is magnificent. I want those voices to be musical instruments, not story-tellers. To me, the finest musical instrument in the world is the human voice.
I wasn't suggesting Italian would help your enjoyment of the music, Russ - just of that movie.
My wife used to enjoy listening to operatic works, but even with Italian as an understood language, I could almost never make out a goddam word any of them sang; just too noisy! My wife couldn't get the words either, but it didn't diminish her pleasure.
I used to move to another room.
;-)
Rob
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I read it a couple years ago! That's what I meant. And given that poem, boy, are you in for a treat when you read Muller's book. Just promise me you'll stick with it until the final chapter.
I promise. Had to buy the Kindle edition since the paperback isn't out yet.
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Interesting read.
Maybe this is a little OT.
My art-therory-classes are a while ago, but though I guess you mean it in an even broader sense, I got reminded of "the sublime". This idea and concept which is hovering around for long and is hard to describe in few words. Your essay lets me think: Maybe the sublime is not only about greatness that cannot be depicted, really (a very simple way to put it), but also about enigmatical things or strange constellations that you cannot decrypt, but still "somehow" understand. Maybe it's a similar thing, even though caused by different things ("greatness"/"complexity")? Interesting thought for me, thanks for the impulse, lets me think new ways, never a bad thing ...
;-)
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Well, the devil's advocate in me wants to have a word with you, because she doesn't care much for all the agreement here. She's confused somewhat by your choice of words, perhaps finds it almost pretentious that you require a new word or at least a redefinition of an existing word just to describe something that you maybe have failed to define properly for yourself.
She isn't quite sure, so she wants to ask you this:
what differentiates "touching the soul" from "touching the seer"?
Does "seer" relate to a "collective higher conscious" in some way?
Additionally, she's aware of a lot of conscious learning required to appreciate poetry for example. You need to first learn language, then learn ambiguity and metaphore, and then you need to learn to read between the lines. So she wonders whether your "seer" can only be touched if you at least have some form of education, or, if it is truly beyond conscious or emotional comprehension, whether a child can have the seer touched as well?
And can the seer be touched by the beauty of nature for example? Or maybe a single color? Or does it require a more complex construct?
She'd like to point out that these are just questions for her own understanding and education, they are by no means meant to be a criticism of your essay, although she finds the conclusion somewhat strongly worded if the only evidence provided comes in the form of personal experience which, for all she knows could be merely subconscious visceral emotion...
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Hi Oscar,
From the tenor of her advocacy I'd guess your advocate's devil is all shook up. Let's answer her questions so her devil can relax.
What differentiates the "soul" from the "seer" is that the word "soul" comes with thousands of years of religious connotations and associations, which tend to veer the "soul" off the road. The "seer" is much cleaner, and keeps us away from the edge.
Before I can answer the advocate's second question I'm going to need to get her to define "collective higher conscious." I've run across that vague phrase dozens of times, and at the least it suffers the same problems "soul" suffers.
As far as "conscious" learning is concerned, I'd agree with her that you need to get past infancy in order to deal with these things. I almost said "understand" these things, but I don't think "understand" is the right word. If "understand" were the right word, you'd be screwed if you ran across a line like " Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay." I may be talking about "unconscious" learning, but I'm not sure that's right. This is not something you can sit down and discuss.
As far as the seer being touched by the "beauty of nature" is concerned, I think if you read carefully you'll find I've already answered that question more than once in the article.
I'm glad your advocate isn't criticizing. But you might point out to her that all "evidence" comes in the form of personal experience. And if she's experiencing "subconscious visceral emotion" as a result of Winogrand's "New Mexico, 1957" she's in bigger trouble than she realizes.
Best,
Russell
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
It's fascinating how limited philosophy has turned out to be for exactly this reason: we as humans seem to be pretty limited in our imagination. We can't imagine the infinite because we've never seen it; we can't even imagine very large numbers of things... even the human population of earth is pretty much beyond real visceral comprehension, I believe.
Sometimes, science drags us screaming out of our comfortable philosophies via something like the Michelson-Morley experiment: the Ether didn't exist, but but... it must. So then along came Einstein, and time was just a different direction in 4 dimensional space, and different speeds are just different directions. Then take it a little further to think about falling elevators with physicists in them and we found we were living in curved four dimensional space. Then that just maybe the signature that distinguishes time from the other directions might not have always been there, and we have the Hartle-Hawking model where we find that time is just an epi-phenomenon, that somehow very early on there was no time, in which case it doesn't even make sense to say "early": time didn't exist anymore than smart phones did in 1850, the universe was getting on just fine, then something happened and somehow there was some notion of future and past.
That without even going near quantum mechanics, which I'm not convinced anyone understands in their gut.
Maybe that's how art works: it rattles something in our mental cupboards that we didn't know was there, that we hadn't had reason to imagine. In which case it might be an image of humans in a diner and memories of our youth, or it might be abstract splashings of colour that reflect something, not from the early universe but about how our neurones evolved to deal with some survival challenge when we were still more comfortable in trees...
+1
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I'm confused. How does your 'seer' relate to the dictionary 'seer' (the one that rhymes with 'queer' and denotes a person who has visions of the future)?
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Hi Elliot. It relates about the same way a Boeing 747 relates to a potato.
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But the dictionary 'seer' derives from the verb 'to see' and means 'the one who sees' (i.e. the see-er) - isn't that the meaning of your 'seer'?
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Your link to Hopper's 'Rooms by the Sea' goes to a CGI reworking of the original:
http://www.damieldesigngroup.it/index.php/anamorfosi/10-digi
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Hi Elliot. The "meaning" of my seer is exactly what I put in the article. And if the link on your computer goes to the picture in your link, you have a serious problem. You might want to run an antivirus scan.
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Hopper's 'Rooms by the Sea' does not include a tea-cup atop a pile of books. The image you've linked to in your essay is a re-imagining of Hopper's painting by a CGI studio. Your seer is not seeing clearly.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ec/b3/8c/ecb38c5992d69371e0e7f3de65d9f712.jpg
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You're right, of course. That's what happens when you're in a hurry. It's fixed.
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Hey Russ, really enjoyed the post and all the links. I am still going through the lot!!
JR
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Russ,
That is a wonderful essay, going to the heart of great art.
Thanks for sharing it. It is worth much more than all the critic-speak mumbo jumbo that seems to accessorize the art world these days.
-Eric
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What differentiates the "soul" from the "seer" is that the word "soul" comes with thousands of years of religious connotations and associations, which tend to veer the "soul" off the road. The "seer" is much cleaner, and keeps us away from the edge.
A veering soul would be her cup of tea exactly. She, or at least her boss, likes to see souls in precisely that predicament.
Before I can answer the advocate's second question I'm going to need to get her to define "collective higher conscious." I've run across that vague phrase dozens of times, and at the least it suffers the same problems "soul" suffers.
She was merely wondering whether you mean that "seer" is specifically a personal/individual experience, or whether perhaps there is a greater overall collective intelligence or conscious being formed by that touch.
Being an advocate she isn't much of a proponent of the illogical, and finds that the old adagium usually holds: if it can't be explained by reason, then it must be some kind of religious experience. The "seer" to her is much like that. She doesn't deny that there may be more to experiences than what our senses alone provide, but there must be good reasons to deny an inability to explicate.
As an occupational deformation, she likes to argue her case which usually involves providing alternative interpretations. In that spirit, she would like to present an alternative interpretation of Winogrand's New Mexico.
What she sees is an unaccompanied toddler emerging from a black hole. In front of the child is a pavement of a nearly empty driveway with just a toppled trike. An additionally large part of the frame shows that in the background stormclouds are forming over distant mountains.
Well, an unaccompanied toddler walking alone out of the safety of its home is clearly a recipe for disaster, and in this case it represents very well the tabula rasa we all are before we embark on the journey of life. The journey of life nicely represented by the pavement with the toppled trike, the challenges and corresponding mistakes we will encounter and make while walking the path laid out before us. The storm is a foreboding of the challenges ahead, of the true sh*tstorm that life really is, that will form our final personality and character.
Why does she believe this to be a useful interpretation if it comes to art appreciation? Well, true art is timeless. The time and location of the architecture are not at all relevant for this interpretation, and considering the amount of architecture actually in the picture, she believes the photographer wasn't much interested in representing it.
It's an alternative interpretation she wants to give to you for consideration, if perhaps there might be subconscious logic at play. She realises full well this comes dangerously close to an artist's statement, but suppose that subconsciously you see those metaphores and understand at that subconscious level that there is a bigger picture presented here about life in a general sense. And perhaps that subconscious "knowing" or "learning" is the jolt you experience when seeing a moving piece of art and which you ascribe to a touch of the seer by perhaps an inability to explicate?
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You do all realise, don't you, that Winogrand was just winding on his film to the first exposure, and that the shot was simply an interface with chance and had no further significance?
The real subject (off camera, out on the left), the mother of said child, who was still having her eyeliner touched up.
That it made a cover shot is just another manifestation of the art industry at work play.
Inner comptrollers are seldom to be trusted unless they come wrapped in instinct.
Rob
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You do all realise, don't you, that Winogrand was just winding on his film to the first exposure, and that the shot was simply an interface with chance and had no further significance?
The real subject (off camera, out on the left), the mother of said child, who was still having her eyeliner touched up.
Uh! I didn't know!!
Is this (intended) picture included in the book? I have it, will flip through ...
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Seems not to be in that book ("Figments ..."), do you still know where you got that from? Sorry if going OT, but I really am interested in that: It's not that seldom that the so called "photo-icons" came to existence due to some editor ... like RobC said ...
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You do all realise, don't you, that Winogrand was just winding on his film to the first exposure, and that the shot was simply an interface with chance and had no further significance?
FYP
Leave it to Rob to chime in at the mere utterance of the words "artist statement".
What do you care how he made the shot? It's the one he apparently choose to develop and print, an ordeal, as you should know, all of its own.
Besides, it is a lot like your image called driver. You may not realize the significance of that image for exactly our day, age, and time when car companies are attempting to use AI to provide us with "autonomous vehicles". I'm sure my inner advocate would love to promote that image in the art world for exactly that juxtaposition...
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Whilst we may never gain a full understanding of the work of art, we can at least gain intimations of its truth by describing its effects. To speak of art's ineffability is to cut the conversation dead.
Oscar has had a good crack at the Winogrand photo - it is indeed full of signs of danger. Rob too - the composition is off-kilter and this draws attention to the presence of the photographer (which adds to the feeling that the child is in danger).
I'd probably analyse the photo in relation to other images - for example, we can find the child's mother in this well-known image by Robert Adams - http://anotherimg.dazedgroup.netdna-cdn.com/1000/azure/another-prod/350/4/354464.jpg
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Um... whether Winnie did or not get that shot before winding on to 1 is speculation: artistic licence, if you will. It's quite acceptable to think of it as my contribution to marking a step on the ladder to perceived greatness!
"Driver" is one of those images that grew into greater consciousness (mine) post-shooting...
I am perfectly happy for the inner advocate to do her part in selling me for filthy lucre.
Returning for a sec to cars - why would anyone want to give up the pleasure of driving for themselves? A boon, of course, for anyone with failed sight, but there are usually many years of wheeled joy before that hits you, if it ever does. The creation of a wide market for driverless vehicles seems distinctly sinister to me - a sort of hostile takeover of human inputs. Redundancy through the rear door, as it were.
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Seems not to be in that book ("Figments ..."), do you still know where you got that from? Sorry if going OT, but I really am interested in that: It's not that seldom that the so called "photo-icons" came to existence due to some editor ... like RobC said ...
Check out Russ' link in his essay.
Rob
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Oscar: I haven't time to expand at length on your advocate's ruminations, but I can't see that the seer is subject to "interpretation." She sounds as if she's making an "artist's statement."
And Rob: Great shot with the story about Winogrand just winding his film. I thought I'd read just about everything about Garry, but I missed that one. Hmmm. . . But you've done enough street to know that everything is "an interface with chance." As HCB said, "You just have to be receptive." Both Garry and Szarkowski were receptive. No, Farb, it's not in the book, but "New Mexico, 1957" is.
And Elliott: You really should have written an "artist's statement" for Garry's picture. Actually, you practically did, right here.
And Eric: Just plain thanks.
I had a lot of fun writing that essay, and I meant every word of it. The stuff in art that really bites into you doesn't do it with beauty or emotion. It goes beyond that and dances in a green bay.
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Given some of the responses here, I might be tempted to "crop" (oops!) the word "seer" and perhaps replace it with a content-free dash, something like "------", and leave it to the reader to supply his or her own word if s/he thinks it is important to have a word for it.
It seems to me that some of the responders have gotten hung up on that word to the extent that they can't see the concept it represents. And they then lock their minds into "Artist Statement" mode.
To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, "I shall not today attempt further to define what Russ means by "seer," but I know it when I see it." ;)
Eric
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FYP
Leave it to Rob to chime in at the mere utterance of the words "artist statement".
What do you care how he made the shot? It's the one he apparently choose to develop and print, an ordeal, as you should know, all of its own.
Besides, it is a lot like your image called driver. You may not realize the significance of that image for exactly our day, age, and time when car companies are attempting to use AI to provide us with "autonomous vehicles". I'm sure my inner advocate would love to promote that image in the art world for exactly that juxtaposition...
Too cruel! I believe in Statements from "artists"!
http://www.roma57.com/notice.html
Rob
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. . .you might enjoy Now: The Physics of Time (https://www.amazon.com/Now-Physics-Time-Richard-Muller/dp/0393285235/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1503339778&sr=1-1&keywords=now+physics+of+time) by Richard Muller. It touched the seer in me and it addresses the metaphysical threshold and limitations of modern physics. I guarantee you'll like it and, like I did, learn something astounding and a propos of your post.
Hi David. I finished Muller's book today. As I told you, I bought the Kindle version because the softback isn't out yet. Yesterday I bought the hard copy because (1) I want it for my library, and (2) I'm going to lend it to a friend who desperately needs to read it but who won't be able to get it from any nearby library and who won't consider springing for it. Thanks so much for the suggestion.
When I went to buy the hard copy from Amazon I noticed that there were several one-star reviews. If you read them, be sure you're over a carpet. You don't want to hurt yourself when you roll on the floor laughing. It's the attack of the physicalists. They don't like the fact that Muller blew apart their religion: the faith that says physics can explain everything.
I love Muller's conclusion that "now" is the leading edge of time, which as part of the big bang is expanding the same way the physical universe is expanding.
In the end of the book I think he echoed what I wrote ten years ago in my essay, "Recessional."
"Science can tell us about chlorophyll and how photosynthesis converts sunlight to glucose, and how the plant that’s trapped the glucose feeds the cow that shows up in your Big Mac. But science can’t tell you why there’s grass or why there’s a cow, and the continued existence of a society like ours depends on more than the literalisms of science. We need answers to things like why there’s grass, who we are, why we’re here, and where we’re going. We need answers to these things as individuals and as a society, and science can’t answer any of these questions. You need to be still to get answers to these things, and science, by its very nature, must always be in motion."
I love the "whats" and "hows" of physics that Muller explores, but I think the bottom line for all of us is "why?" I think art can give us (our souls, our seers) a faint touch of "why," though you can't really talk abut it.
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Hopper's 'Rooms by the Sea' does not include a tea-cup atop a pile of books. The image you've linked to in your essay is a re-imagining of Hopper's painting by a CGI studio. Your seer is not seeing clearly.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ec/b3/8c/ecb38c5992d69371e0e7f3de65d9f712.jpg
Elliott, when I got ready to post my answer to David I read through the posts here and realized I never thanked you for picking up my error. Thanks, my friend. Keep up the good work. Don't let me get away with crap like that.
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Russ, I told you so! Glad you enjoyed the book; if I find any similar new ones, I will pass them along.
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Since The Coffee Corner has been taken over by "Trump II" and related head-rattlings I'll post this link here. Just finished this essay: Touching the Seer (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/TouchingTheSeer.html).
Regarding your essay, I like the way it addresses the "ineffable." When we're at a loss for words, the cycle of sensation, perception, and cognition widens.
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Since The Coffee Corner has been taken over by "Trump II" and related head-rattlings I'll post this link here. Just finished this essay: Touching the Seer (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/TouchingTheSeer.html).
Recently found this old thread. Your essay is just perfect! Wondering, how did you become such a good writer. I always had problems with it. I even bought essay papers on https://essaystudio.org/buy-essay-paper (https://essaystudio.org/buy-essay-paper) when I was a teenager. It was a high quality essays, but now I'm thinking about doing it on my own. I want to become a writer, but I don't really know, where to start off. As an experienced writer, what kind of advice can you give to me? Where can I find some tips to become a better writer?
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Recently found this old thread. Your essay is just perfect! Wondering, how did you become such a good writer. I always had problems with it. I even bought essay papers when I was a teenager.
Hi Strogg, and thanks for the compliment. I was lucky. In high school I had an English composition teacher, Elsie Harper, who wouldn't take any crap from her students. Although I wasn't terribly thrilled with her approach in those days I wish now that I could give her a hug and a kiss. She gave me -- actually pounded into me -- a skill that's carried me through my life and brought me many promotions. There are way too few people like Elsie out there. Wish we had more.
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Hi Strogg, and thanks for the compliment. I was lucky. In high school I had an English composition teacher, Elsie Harper, who wouldn't take any crap from her students. Although I wasn't terribly thrilled with her approach in those days I wish now that I could give her a hug and a kiss. She gave me -- actually pounded into me -- a skill that's carried me through my life and brought me many promotions. There are way too few people like Elsie out there. Wish we had more.
But you forgot the essential bit: first you need the gift of something to develop.
I honestly believe a natural gift is the basis of all capable writers, painters/pencil artists, sculptors, photographers and most certainly, musicians.
And whilst we're at it, successful salesmen of all types.
Were it not so, any old workshop should be able to produce a genius out of anybody who pays the entrance fee.
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I agree with you 100%, Rob, but I also think a lot of talent goes to waste because the people with the talent never run into an Elsie Harper. My mother was a high school English teacher, in a different school system but she knew Elsie. My mom once asked Elsie how I was doing and Elsie said I had talent but I was an “intellectual bum.” I can’t think of a more accurate description of me in high school. Same thing was true when I was at University of Michigan. I used to cut classes, hang out in the Men’s Union (that was before political correctness ruined the campuses) and write poetry. That all came to an end with the Korean war when I decided I’d rather fly over the rice paddies than slog through them.
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Recently found this old thread.
Thanks StroggCore for bringing this essay back to life.
I missed it completely
Thanks, Rob. But I don't agree that I should learn Italian. I sometimes read English translations of librettos, and — let's face it — the stories in most grand opera are ridiculous, stilted, silly. At the same time, the music is magnificent. I want those voices to be musical instruments, not story-tellers. To me, the finest musical instrument in the world is the human voice.
While the stories ARE silly, the lyrics of the arias are usually pure poetry, part of the music, I'd say. It's in my opinion a gain to understand them
Dai campi, dai prati
Che innonda la notte,
Dai queti sentier
Ritorno e di pace,
Di calma profonda
Son pieno, di sacro mister.
Le torve passioni del core
S'assonnano in placido oblio,
Mi ferve soltanto
L'amore dell'uomo!
L'amore di Dio.
Ah! Dai campi, dai prati
Ritorno e verso all'Evangel
Mi sento attratto,
M'accingo a meditar.
Of course , poetry is what gets lost in translation
Thanks for the nice essay, Russ. And for making me listen this aria again ;D
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Thanks, Rab. As I'm sure you saw when you read the essay, the little aria, "Dai Compi, Dai Prati" is one of my all-time favorites. I wish I could touch the poetry, but of course I can't. The music is. . . nothing I can say about it will explain how it affects me.
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Thank you for your essays. They are easy and interesting to read. I think that to write such essays, it is not enough to be just a smart and educated person, you need to have the talent of a writer. I admit that being a writer is my childhood dream. But the teachers didn't see this talent in me. And I will still leave my mark as a writer in this world and create a fascinating blog with the help of the writing service textroyal.com (https://textroyal.com/services/blog-writing-services). I hope to be successful in this. You inspired me. If you can give me some advice on this topic, I would appreciate it.