Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: JKoerner007 on June 19, 2017, 05:08:51 pm

Title: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 19, 2017, 05:08:51 pm
Shadowblade brought up an interesting point on his 70-200 thread, which I felt deserved to be a whole new topic unto itself. He said,

Not the E-mount - that's a mirrorless mount that will stay around. Same with the Canon EF-M mount (18mm flange distance and 47mm throat diameter). Both are suitable for full-frame mirrorless lenses.

EF-S will almost certainly die. So will A-mount. EF and F mounts also have uncertain futures, as they will have no reason to exist once the mirror box is supplanted. The mount itself may survive, since their larger throat diameter is even better for developing lenses (particularly tilt-shifts and lenses with wide apertures) but they may no longer use the same flange distance (e.g. the sensor may be moved 18mm behind the mount instead of 44mm), rendering current lenses unusable on them.

Interesting subject.

To me, this is an important consideration in future lens investment questions, because I agree that modern camera mounts do have a questionable future, and I further agree mirrorless will eventually replace DSLRs (the same as DSLRs eventually replaced film).

Canon has proven they have no problems scrapping an entire lens line, to make room for a new mount system, leaving the owners with a suddenly-worthless lens investment. By contrast, Nikon showed consideration for the owners of its past lenses by transferring the F-Mount to the modern DSLR age, which enabled Nikonians to still make use of their lens investments on their new DSLRs.

But the question is, would Nikon do that again, especially with some of the limitations the F-mount has, now exacerbated by having to adapt to mirrorless? It's hard to say.

I can't imagine Nikon scrapping all of its modern lenses, that it's in the process of upgrading right now, and I also think the same limitations don't apply here either. (Canon's FD lenses had no AF.)

That said, I believe it is highly-likely Nikon is eventually going to announce a mount switch, when mirrorless becomes the standard (and I have no doubt it will, probably in less than 2 years).

However, I do not believe that either Canon's or Nikon's lens portfolio will become instantly "obsolete," as Canon's FD mount did. Why? Because of adapters. The ubiquity of adapters (and the fact Canon/Nikon lenses are already AF) will enable those with a considerable investment in high-end glass to continue using their lenses, even if Ca/Nikon changes (or, likely, modifies) its EF and F-Mounts. In fact, even Canon's elder F-mounts can now be used on Sony mirrorless cameras, because of adapters, which has markedly increased the value of elder FD glass.

Manufacturers would also offer a "remounting" service as well. Does anyone else see this as being an issue: The future of DSLR lens mounts?
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: davidgp on June 19, 2017, 05:28:40 pm
When someone mentions that Canon left FD to create EF mount I always think the same, it allowed Canon to become the leader, even starting several years behind introducing an AF reflex system (first reflex AF systems from Minolta (that they also left the MD system behind to create the new A mount) and Nikon was in 1983, Canon released EF system in 1987). Canon did not only added the AF motors, it converted the full lens in electronic lenses... Nikon and other still used mechanical parts to open aperture or move the AF elements inside the lens (screw af lens with the motors in the camera... ). Not that if I was and FD user back them I will be happy...

Anyway, back to topic, I will not worry about for example EF lens, Canon seems to be doing a good job adapting those to the EF-M mount system, like for example the EOS M5. Like I said in other post, thanks to their dual af pixel technology, they can use traditional EF lens quite well (EF lenses are optimized for Phase Detect AF systems, contrast detect system are not good for them, not sure about new lenses with STM motors). Since the 70D all Canon cameras come with dual af pixel, so their sensors are ready to be put into a mirrorless full-frame, if they change the mount to other thing different from EF, an adaptor will work quite well.

Nikon can also do the same, I suppose it will not difficult for them to do the adaptor, they don't have to reverse engineer anything like other adaptor makers. Since they are buying sensors to Sony, they can buy those that have Phase detect pixels over them, like Olympus does. They only need to adapt their AF algorithms to this.

So, I suppose it is safe to buy into those systems, only problem will be the rumored Nikon economical problems... but I don't expect they go down the hill too quick... if they even do...
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 19, 2017, 05:54:42 pm
I would argue that Nikon CANNOT use the Sony sensors with on sensor AF.

There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

The whole web would be in fire within hours and this would be highlighted as another obvious proof of Nikon's unstoppable technological decline.

As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 19, 2017, 05:59:25 pm
When someone mentions that Canon left FD to create EF mount I always think the same, it allowed Canon to become the leader, even starting several years behind introducing an AF reflex system (first reflex AF systems from Minolta (that they also left the MD system behind to create the new A mount) and Nikon was in 1983, Canon released EF system in 1987). Canon did not only added the AF motors, it converted the full lens in electronic lenses... Nikon and other still used mechanical parts to open aperture or move the AF elements inside the lens (screw af lens with the motors in the camera... ). Not that if I was and FD user back them I will be happy...

Which is why I am curious/concerned if Nikon will "totally modernize" its mount this time around.

They will have to make some kind of change ...



Anyway, back to topic, I will not worry about for example EF lens, Canon seems to be doing a good job adapting those to the EF-M mount system, like for example the EOS M5. Like I said in other post, thanks to their dual af pixel technology, they can use traditional EF lens quite well (EF lenses are optimized for Phase Detect AF systems, contrast detect system are not good for them, not sure about new lenses with STM motors). Since the 70D all Canon cameras come with dual af pixel, so their sensors are ready to be put into a mirrorless full-frame, if they change the mount to other thing different from EF, an adaptor will work quite well.

Interesting.



Nikon can also do the same, I suppose it will not difficult for them to do the adaptor, they don't have to reverse engineer anything like other adaptor makers. Since they are buying sensors to Sony, they can buy those that have Phase detect pixels over them, like Olympus does. They only need to adapt their AF algorithms to this.

I think the adapter (or, likely, a mount-changing service) will be the most likely solution.



So, I suppose it is safe to buy into those systems, only problem will be the rumored Nikon economical problems... but I don't expect they go down the hill too quick... if they even do...

It's been established that Nikon's "extraordinary losses" came from restructuring its LITHOGRAPHY business (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2017/06/nikon-and-fuji.html), and that mis-interpretations as to their lithography woes translating to its camera business were the result of bad reading.

Quote: "Nikon does not have a current financial problem. Anybody who can read a balance sheet can verify that."
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 19, 2017, 06:07:20 pm
As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

True, glass-wise.

However, one limitation of the F-Mount is that its mechanics don't allow Nikon to make f/1.2 primes, like Canon can: details here (https://photographylife.com/nikon-f-vs-canon-ef).

This will likely be exacerbated once Nikon goes mirrorless; hence my curiosity (concern?) as to the future of existing F-Mount lenses ... though I believe there will be viable solutions.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 19, 2017, 07:37:11 pm
However, one limitation of the F-Mount is that its mechanics don't allow Nikon to make f/1.2 primes, like Canon can: details here (https://photographylife.com/nikon-f-vs-canon-ef).

Well... I don't see a problem with using these legacy 1.2 lenses on current bodies.

What Nikon hasn't done is f1.2 lenses with autofocus. I am not sure whether it is the result of the F mount limitations or the result of some limitations of their AF modules.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: CeeVee on June 19, 2017, 08:23:27 pm
Seems like I heard this same argument, albeit in reverse (!), when SLRs were gaining popularity. That was the middle 60s and I was in High School.
I have both SLRs, Nikons, and a Fuji X Pro-2. Do I think OVF will push SLR off a cliff? No.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 19, 2017, 10:43:30 pm
Well... I don't see a problem with using these legacy 1.2 lenses on current bodies.

Legacy f/1.2 lenses can be used with current bodies, yes ... with mirrors and a recessed sensor ... but they're manual-focus only. The rear elements of these lenses protrude greatly, however.

The point is f/1.2 AF lenses can't be developed on the F-Mount (not without a lot of cost).



What Nikon hasn't done is f1.2 lenses with autofocus. I am not sure whether it is the result of the F mount limitations or the result of some limitations of their AF modules.

I have the 50mm f/1.2 AIS, but it has no chip or automation.

The answer to the F-Mount limitation was provided in the link (https://photographylife.com/nikon-f-vs-canon-ef) I offered. To quote:


The article goes on to point out the disadvantages of Nikkor D and G lenses as well: “One of the biggest disadvantages of the Nikon F mount is the mechanical diaphragm / aperture lever that is present on most Nikon lenses ... This means that when shooting with (such levered) lenses ... the lens must physically stop down and open up every time the camera fires.”

However, many have noticed Nikon is upgrading its lenses to the E class (e.g., 400mm f/2.8E FL ED, 105 f/1.4E ED, etc.), in which Nikon is using an electromagnetic diaphragm (hence, E). These electromagnetic upgrades are now spilling into normal focal lengths, as for example the recently-introduced 28mm f/1.4E ED. Pricey, yes, but the quality and speed seems to be upgraded as well. Therefore, I personally will only be investing in the E class of lenses going forward.

On the other hand, it is likely that camera sizes will be shrinking in the future, as mirrorless development continues and lens sizes will likely follow. A modified Nikon F-Mount, with its slightly-smaller diameter, might actually prove to be more advantageous as cameras/lenses get smaller in the future.

With an adapter, older lenses would able to still be utilized, as cameras get smaller/go mirrorless, whilst newer developments are allowed for.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 19, 2017, 10:48:56 pm
Seems like I heard this same argument, albeit in reverse (!), when SLRs were gaining popularity. That was the middle 60s and I was in High School.
I have both SLRs, Nikons, and a Fuji X Pro-2. Do I think OVF will push SLR off a cliff? No.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

How many TLRs do you see these days? How many film cameras do you see? How many rangefinders, apart from Leica's legacy product (these days more a toy for rich hobbyists with a fondness for history than a professional tool).

SLRs will continue to exist in a similar way to these - as a low-volume legacy product - not as main-line cameras. I'm not talking about next year or the year after, of course - more like 10 years down the line.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: davidgp on June 20, 2017, 05:17:16 am
I would argue that Nikon CANNOT use the Sony sensors with on sensor AF.

There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

The whole web would be in fire within hours and this would be highlighted as another obvious proof of Nikon's unstoppable technological decline.

As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

Cheers,
Bernard

As I commented in other places, Sony is already implemeting Dual Pixel technology, quite similar to the one of Canon uses, in the iPhone 7 sensor chips (http://techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/blog/survey-of-enabling-technologies-in-successful-consumer-digital-imaging-products/ ). The Canon 5D Mark IV or 80D that has this dual pixel af on sensor do not produce banding, and I have not hear it in the iPhone... it is just a matter of time for Sony to scale up this technology to the Full Frame sensors, like they did with BSI or Stacked CMOS sensors.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: davidgp on June 20, 2017, 05:20:45 am
Which is why I am curious/concerned if Nikon will "totally modernize" its mount this time around.

They will have to make some kind of change ...


Well, Nikon already did, all Nikon Lenses release right now in the market are fully electronic ones (mainly), so you need a body that supports them, even the F mount it is physically the same, not all F lenses can be used in all nikon bodies and vice versa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_F-mount#Compatibility
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on June 20, 2017, 05:41:13 am
If/when Canon goes mirrorless, I think they will keep the EF mount; after all, they already have a small suite of MILC cameras, in the EOS M line. IMO, MILC don't have to be small, just for the sake of it. Some of their SLRs are already too small to be used with the larger lenses. So I think they are comfortable, and do not need to change mounts and introduce a new lens series.

Nikon are in the same ballpark, with the major difference that they don't have a credible small MILC system.

Both of the companies have 200 million + lenses out there, which is a big argument not to change mounts...
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 20, 2017, 07:26:33 am
If/when Canon goes mirrorless, I think they will keep the EF mount; after all, they already have a small suite of MILC cameras, in the EOS M line. IMO, MILC don't have to be small, just for the sake of it. Some of their SLRs are already too small to be used with the larger lenses. So I think they are comfortable, and do not need to change mounts and introduce a new lens series.

Nikon are in the same ballpark, with the major difference that they don't have a credible small MILC system.

Both of the companies have 200 million + lenses out there, which is a big argument not to change mounts...

They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on June 20, 2017, 09:29:51 am
They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.

Maybe, but... that is 200 million lenses they need to cater for. Also, if they go mirrorless with a new mount, they lose that huge legacy. Plus, those lenses are a very strong reason for users to remain in the system.

If they change mount, nothing will prevent users, both old and new, to choose Sony, or other, for instance.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 20, 2017, 09:40:12 am
They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Exactly. Canon made the change to EF mount discourteously, but (ultimately) to its profit, by forcing customers essentially to dump their FD lenses and buy EF lenses, if they wanted to stay with Canon. Nikon was not so abrupt, and yet their 'courtesy' to their customers perhaps cost them money in the long run.



Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.

That is precisely my concern investing heavy in F-Mount lenses if a mount-change is eminent.

Most likely, Nikon's movement from G lenses (mechanical lever aperture) to E lenses (electromagnetic aperture) is this solution. The G lenses (as they already make Nikon lens-use more difficult to mount-adapt to a Sony) will likely be the Nikkor lenses to go to pasture, whilst the upgraded E lenses will be much more readily-compatible.

If this hunch is correct, the G lenses will retain a 'legacy' of sorts, by being 'adapter-compatible,' whilst the upgraded/functionally-improved E lenses will inspire fresh purchase incentive.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: scyth on June 20, 2017, 09:50:15 am
There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

did Sony A7R2 with "on sensor AF" (not yet with in sensor AF, like Canon's) generate those ?

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Paul2660 on June 20, 2017, 09:55:22 am
Personally, if I was either Nikon or Canon, I would be a lot more worried about the bigger purchase picture of DSLR"s in general than the mount.

The business has changed, period.  You can only get so much new business from a older client set, net the new customers (younger photographers) have moved totally away from a DSLR environment.  The camera phone has forever changed photography, IMO far greater than anyone ever realized it.  And what the cell phone misses the action gopro type of camera is getting.  Again easier to work with, and get it to the web, done.

Take your eyes off a dedicated forum like LuLa or Getdpi, or others, walk out in world and look and see.  The only folks shooting DSLR's are either new/sport shooter (and they are paid to do it) or a few photographers who still want to use traditional methods in their work.  Methods like understanding, light, DOF, effects of aperture or shutter speeds etc. 

Just watch the news (fake or real depending on your person prefs) and look at the cameras, not too many DSLRS, mirrorless etc.

On my recent trip across the western states, most times I could count the number of photographers using a DSLR on 1 hands fingers, the vast majority of folks, were using cell phone cameras.  Some working seriously, but most just doing the selfie and moving on. You can also bet the all of those folks were just waiting for the next cell town or wifi connection to get their work on the net, then gone.  Forgotten,  no thoughts of a print anywhere and or the needs for what a good print might need. 

The average DSLR at 26MP to 50MP can get the job done, but what Nikon and Canon, Sony to some degree are feeling is a huge shift in the purchase paradigm, yes there has been a huge shift and it's not coming back anytime soon.  Don't let the fact that sites like this one have a lot of dedicated photographers using DSLR's with Canon or Nikon mounts as you in the vast minority of purchasers.  I am sure Nikon and Canon realize this and hopefully are looking elsewhere to make other products that can sustain the older run rates they were getting from DSLR sales.  In that regard, Canon is much better off than Nikon or so it would seem.

Paul Caldwell

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 20, 2017, 09:58:45 am
More likely, the E lenses will be adapter-compatible (with reduced performance), while the G lenses won't be usable at all. You'd need an adapter anyway in order to put the lens onto a new one with a shorter flange distance (whether using the same plug/socket or not).

Of course, Sony buying out Nikon and obtaining their optics capabilities (and existing optical formulae) would make things much better for users. It would also be Canon's worst nightmare. Re-release all of Nikon's best optics with motors that work equally well with mirrorless and SLR setups. In the interim, release bodies with both E-mount and F-mount options, while current Nikon users make the switch (in the same way the original A7 bodies were supplied with a Metabones adapter).
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 20, 2017, 10:06:47 am
Personally, if I was either Nikon or Canon, I would be a lot more worried about the bigger purchase picture of DSLR"s in general than the mount.

The business has changed, period.  You can only get so much new business from a older client set, net the new customers (younger photographers) have moved totally away from a DSLR environment.  The camera phone has forever changed photography, IMO far greater than anyone ever realized it.  And what the cell phone misses the action gopro type of camera is getting.  Again easier to work with, and get it to the web, done.

Take your eyes off a dedicated forum like LuLa or Getdpi, or others, walk out in world and look and see.  The only folks shooting DSLR's are either new/sport shooter (and they are paid to do it) or a few photographers who still want to use traditional methods in their work.  Methods like understanding, light, DOF, effects of aperture or shutter speeds etc. 

Just watch the news (fake or real depending on your person prefs) and look at the cameras, not too many DSLRS, mirrorless etc.

On my recent trip across the western states, most times I could count the number of photographers using a DSLR on 1 hands fingers, the vast majority of folks, were using cell phone cameras.  Some working seriously, but most just doing the selfie and moving on. You can also bet the all of those folks were just waiting for the next cell town or wifi connection to get their work on the net, then gone.  Forgotten,  no thoughts of a print anywhere and or the needs for what a good print might need. 

The average DSLR at 26MP to 50MP can get the job done, but what Nikon and Canon, Sony to some degree are feeling is a huge shift in the purchase paradigm, yes there has been a huge shift and it's not coming back anytime soon.  Don't let the fact that sites like this one have a lot of dedicated photographers using DSLR's with Canon or Nikon mounts as you in the vast minority of purchasers.  I am sure Nikon and Canon realize this and hopefully are looking elsewhere to make other products that can sustain the older run rates they were getting from DSLR sales.  In that regard, Canon is much better off than Nikon or so it would seem.

Paul Caldwell

I agree and disagree.

Years ago, the average consumer "needed" a budget camera to take a photo ... but nowadays everyone has a budget- (really, mid-) level camera in their back pocket, or purse, in the form of a cell phone. No one needs budget cameras anymore. No one.

I think Nikon is responding to this reality better than Canon, quite frankly, as they have decided to remove many of their budget offerings, and (more importantly) Nikon is developing Snap-Bridge, which automatically forwards camera-taken .jpgs into the user's cell phone, wirelessly, so the user can immediately share their camera-taken images onto social media platforms. While problematic in the first iteration, Snap-Bridge is actually a genius way of solving THE main advantage of cell phones (the ability to instantly-share phone-taken images onto social media).

This "instant-share" ability cannot be over-emphasized in importance to the general consumer. No general consumer wants to purchase a color-calibrated monitor, buy expensive software, or otherwise "fiddle" with their images ... they just want to "snap-and-share," so I think Nikon's Snap-Bridge is one helluva way to (pardon the pun) "bridge" this advantage deficit in the use of a DSLR.

Beyond that, cell phones will never be able to take photos of wildlife, sports, etc., like a DSLR/Mirrorless professional camera can do. People who get serious about their photography will always have to upgrade to some kind of an authentic camera. Simple as that.

Thus the big market hole created by cell phones is only the entry-level market. More people are getting born every day, and when they grow up they will still have to purchase authentic cameras to be able to take serious-level sports/wildlife images. They just no longer need budget cameras to take snapshots of themselves, their friends, or family. That market is indeed dead.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 20, 2017, 10:23:19 am
More likely, the E lenses will be adapter-compatible (with reduced performance), while the G lenses won't be usable at all. You'd need an adapter anyway in order to put the lens onto a new one with a shorter flange distance (whether using the same plug/socket or not).

I am not sure the performance would be any more reduced in the E lenses than Canon L-glass.

Nikon E Series lenses outperform both Canon and Sony, so (with an adapter) one would expect the end result to at least perform evenly, with the outdated mechanical "G" lever out of the way.



Of course, Sony buying out Nikon and obtaining their optics capabilities (and existing optical formulae) would make things much better for users. It would also be Canon's worst nightmare. Re-release all of Nikon's best optics with motors that work equally well with mirrorless and SLR setups. In the interim, release bodies with both E-mount and F-mount options, while current Nikon users make the switch (in the same way the original A7 bodies were supplied with a Metabones adapter).

I agree, that would be Canon's worst nightmare.

Nikon's focusing its efforts on a mirrorless body, that can seamlessly integrate its E lenses going forward, would be the ideal for me. But if Sony took over, so long as they retained the Nikon staff that is responsible for their lens/AF excellence, would make no difference to me.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 20, 2017, 10:48:26 am
I am not sure the performance would be any more reduced in the E lenses than Canon L-glass.

Nikon E Series lenses outperform both Canon and Sony, so (with an adapter) one would expect the end result to at least perform evenly, with the outdated mechanical "G" lever out of the way

Not compared to Canon L-lenses, but to native lenses on the new mirrorless mount.

The optical formulae for new mirrorless lenses may well be identical to the current crop of lenses, so image quality may be identical. But AF performance, the availability of automatic lens correction, AI-based focus modes (e.g. eye focus) are likely to be inferior to that of native lenses used without an adapter.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 20, 2017, 10:58:29 am
I agree, that would be Canon's worst nightmare.

Nikon's focusing its efforts on a mirrorless body, that can seamlessly integrate its E lenses going forward, would be the ideal for me. But if Sony took over, so long as they retained the Nikon staff that is responsible for their lens/AF excellence, would make no difference to me.

That would be the whole point of taking over Nikon. Nikon doesn't make sensors, and the A9's AF appears to be equal to that of the D5 at the focal lengths currently available on both systems (obviously we can't yet test how the A9 does at 400 or 500mm, although that should change by the end of the year). But it does a great job with optics - Sony's weak point - so that is the capability Sony would be buying. Even though Fujifilm has been touted as another potential buyer,  it couldn't do nearly as much with Nikon's assets as Sony could.

No way they could seamlessly integrate current lenses into a mirrorless system. At very least, they'd need to use new motors (and likely focus-by-wire) to take advantage of mirrorless cameras' ability to use PDAF and CDAF or AI-based focus at the same time for greater precision. PDAF-only lenses use motors that can make big movements quickly, but struggle with small, rapidly-repeated movements. Sony mirrorless lenses use motors that can do both. The optics can stay the same, but the mechanics would need to change. Which actually isn't a huge task, but would require users to buy new lenses for optimal performance.
Title: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts; current lenses will adapt
Post by: BJL on June 20, 2017, 11:18:22 am
I see no reason to fear that current lenses in Canon EF or Nikon F mount will be unusable on future EVF cameras from Canon or Nikon, even though I do expect that at some stage, both companies will adopt a new lens mount that allows them to better exploit the lens design opportunities of not having the mirror box. They will do this in the way that Canon already has with the EOS-M system: a new mount with a significantly shorter registration distance and wide enough throat that existing SLR lenses can be used perfectly well via an adaptor. With modern all-electronic coupling (as in EOS, and I believe with Nikon G-type lenses [EDIT: or is it only the even newer E lenses?], compatibility through an adaptor is a relatively simple matter; no mechanical aperture stop-down coupling is needed. Some older Nikon lenses might have issues with aperture control: hence my limitation to "current lenses" above.

This is the approach already taken by almost every camera maker in the transition: Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Samsung (NX) along with Canon, and maybe you can count the new Hasselblad XCD lens mount too. The only camera maker that tried to use its existing SLR lens mount on a mirrorless body was Pentax with the rapidly failed K-01.

The backward compatibility problem when Canon went from FD to EF was due to the new mount having a greater registration distance (44mm vs 42mm) which ruled out adapting FD lenses, except with the constraint of losing infinity focus. That is not an issue when ditching the mirror box.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: shadowblade on June 20, 2017, 11:40:51 am
Sure, current lenses will be usable - in the same way that current A-mount and EF-mount lenses can be used on an E-mount camera. Optically, they'd be just as good as ever. But don't bother trying to track fast or erratic action with them.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts; current lenses will adapt
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 20, 2017, 11:42:18 am
They will do this in the way that Canon already has with the EOS-M system: a new mount with a significantly shorter registration distance and wide enough throat that existing SLR lenses can be used perfectly well via an adaptor. With modern all-electronic coupling (as in EOS, and I believe with Nikon G-type lenses [EDIT: or is it only the even newer E lenses?], compatibility through an adaptor is a relatively simple matter; no mechanical aperture stop-down coupling is needed. Some older Nikon lenses might have issues with aperture control: hence my limitation to "current lenses" above.

Yes, that is the takeaway here, with Nikon: the newer E lenses are the only Nikkor lenses without a mechanical lever to get in the way.

Lenses like the 400 f/2.8E FL ED, the 600 f/4E FL ED, the 28/105mm f/1.4Es, etc.

Better lenses than the G, and pretty much everything else in their class, with electronic diaphragm and no mechanical lever to deal with.

Would imagine that none of this has to do with MF glass, like Zeiss Otus, etc., which would be able to utilize any kind of adapter.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: davidgp on June 20, 2017, 12:20:41 pm
did Sony A7R2 with "on sensor AF" (not yet with in sensor AF, like Canon's) generate those ?

As far as I know or read... a6000 and now a9 are the one that present this and it is only seen in some conditions. I suppose that the case of the A9 the main problem is more AF points and less megapixeles, together with higher noise floor at base ISO (typical in sensors optimized for speed like the ones in Nikon D5 or Canon 1D X) makes this more pronounce and observable
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: davidgp on June 20, 2017, 12:28:15 pm
No way they could seamlessly integrate current lenses into a mirrorless system. At very least, they'd need to use new motors (and likely focus-by-wire) to take advantage of mirrorless cameras' ability to use PDAF and CDAF or AI-based focus at the same time for greater precision. PDAF-only lenses use motors that can make big movements quickly, but struggle with small, rapidly-repeated movements. Sony mirrorless lenses use motors that can do both. The optics can stay the same, but the mechanics would need to change. Which actually isn't a huge task, but would require users to buy new lenses for optimal performance.

Well, Canon has their line of STM motors, the equivalent to the linear ones Sony is using in their lenses. Anyway, now that all new Canon cameras have sensors with dual-pixel technology, that it is basically an PDAF system on sensor, current EF lenses focus quite quickly... Canon is famous for it is AF on video, that uses this technology... and Sony is moving to a similar technology (iPhone 7 is using a sony sensor with something similar to this).
Title: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: BJL on June 20, 2017, 01:44:24 pm
Sure, current lenses will be usable . . . Optically, they'd be just as good as ever. But don't bother trying to track fast or erratic action with them.
AF performance of "legacy" SLR lenses on EVF cameras will depend on how good on-sensor PDAF can get. It might become perfectly good, but I can see a worst-case scenario where future development efforts go into supporting new EVF-friendly lenses with linear stepper AF motors or whatever, rather than supporting ultra-sonic (USM/Silent Wave) SLR AF motors.

I think this just means that some high end SLR models will continue to be offered during the transition, but at some stage the best AF will rely on using the main sensor (PDAF+CDAF?) and that will drive lens upgrades too. Fortunately, it seems that the new best AF motor technology for EVD cameras also works perfectly well with SLR AF systems.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: shadowblade on June 22, 2017, 03:08:02 pm
AF performance of "legacy" SLR lenses on EVF cameras will depend on how good on-sensor PDAF can get. It might become perfectly good, but I can see a worst-case scenario where future development efforts go into supporting new EVF-friendly lenses with linear stepper AF motors or whatever, rather than supporting ultra-sonic (USM/Silent Wave) SLR AF motors.

I think this just means that some high end SLR models will continue to be offered during the transition, but at some stage the best AF will rely on using the main sensor (PDAF+CDAF?) and that will drive lens upgrades too. Fortunately, it seems that the new best AF motor technology for EVD cameras also works perfectly well with SLR AF systems.

Fortunately, mirrorless-friendly motors work just as well with PDAF as USM-type motors. A lens made with such motors can work just as well as one made with regular motors on an SLR, but be able to take advantage of CDAF-based or AI-based (e.g  eye focus,  facial recognition, intelligent tracking) fine-tuning on a through-the-sensor AF system. The only thing is that it would be focus-by-wire, but improving the manual focus experience with such lenses really just amounts to interface design and haptic feedback.

So, next-generation Canon lenses could easily be made to support both SLRs and mirrorless systems equally well, although they would obviously need to be built with the EF mount's 44mm flange distance in mind. Nikon could do the same with its new generation of 'E'-series lenses, too, although, lacking a credible mirrorless system of their own, they have little reason to do so. This is why Nikon would be such a valuable acquisition for Sony - take the current optical formulae,  put them into new casings with new motors to support mirrorless cameras, and they'd instantly have a comprehensive, mirrorless-ready lens lineup with very little difficulty  (to say nothing of the optical design and manufacturing experience and capability they'd also acquire for future designs). If anything, Nikon would likely be worth more as part of Sony than as an independent entity in its own right (Canon already has its own in-house capability, so wouldn't gain much by acquiring Nikon).
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 22, 2017, 03:39:06 pm
This is why Nikon would be such a valuable acquisition for Sony - take the current optical formulae,  put them into new casings with new motors to support mirrorless cameras, and they'd instantly have a comprehensive, mirrorless-ready lens lineup with very little difficulty  (to say nothing of the optical design and manufacturing experience and capability they'd also acquire for future designs).

More prognostication ...

However, let's pretend this happened, Sony would do better to keep Nikon's beautiful black-and-gold FL ED lens design ... and scrap their own (f)ugly, Canon-copying, white, wanna-be design ;)

No one has uglier super-telephoto lenses than Sony. No one. (Nor less capable super-telephotos).

If they ever did acquire Nikon, they should dump their own shoddy lens casings and keep Nikon's absolutely beautiful ones.



If anything, Nikon would likely be worth more as part of Sony than as an independent entity in its own right (Canon already has its own in-house capability, so wouldn't gain much by acquiring Nikon).

Nikon is doing just fine, actually, and will likely be doing much better when they dump their unprofitable lithography business, their low-end cameras, and concentrate their efforts on the high-end of their camera/lens + other profitable business.

My own prediction is ... you will be seeing many more incredible lenses coming from them in the next few months ... as well as the D850 ... and likely a very capable mirrorless by this same time next year. And most of what they put out will be class-leading.

You act like creating a mirrorless camera is going to be "beyond Nikon," but the truth is it will prove to be a very easy deviation/amendment from what they're already superb at doing.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 22, 2017, 03:52:31 pm
Go team go...go, go, go...yeah team!!!!
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: shadowblade on June 22, 2017, 03:58:20 pm
More prognostication ...

However, let's pretend this happened, Sony would do better to keep Nikon's beautiful black-and-gold FL ED lens design ... and scrap their own (f)ugly, Canon-copying, white, wanna-be design ;)

No one has uglier super-telephoto lenses than Sony. No one. (Nor less capable super-telephotos).

If they ever did acquire Nikon, they should dump their own shoddy lens casings and keep Nikon's absolutely beautiful ones.

Who cares what the lenses look like? It's what they can do that matters. And, without a change in their motor (i.e. completely new lenses, even if the optical formulae remain the same) there is no way the current Nikon lenses - or Canon lenses without the STM designation, for that matter - can work optimally with a mirrorless AF system.

Quote
Nikon is doing just fine, actually, and will likely be doing much better when they dump their unprofitable lithography business, their low-end cameras, and concentrate their efforts on the high-end of their camera/lens + other profitable business.

Not according to their financials, they're not. Their high-end sales alone can't pay for future lens and camera development, and at least one aspect of their high end - the high-resolution end, held up by the D810 - won't be so high-end any more once they come out with a mere 46MP against Sony's 70-80MP and Canon's likrly 60-70MP (with the dynamic range issue having been fixed now).

Quote
My own prediction is ... you will be seeing many more incredible lenses coming from them in the next few months ... as well as the D850 ... and likely a very capable mirrorless by this same time next year. And most of what they put out will be class-leading.

What are you basing this on, other than 'you like Nikon'? Even NikonRumors isn't suggesting any of this, with the sole exception of the D820/D850.

Quote
You act like creating a mirrorless camera is going to be "beyond Nikon," but the truth is it will prove to be a very easy deviation/amendment from what they're already superb at doing.

It took Canon and Sony - much bigger companies than Nikon - six or seven years to get where they currently are with mirrorless, and that's coming from a background in video, which Nikon lacks. What makes you think Nikon is going to get there any time soon, with absolutely no background in it and no sensor manufacturing capability of their own (i.e. they literally couldn't make a sensor with on-sensor AF even if they wanted to)? Apart from the whole 'I like Nikon so they're the best at everything and have no flaws' thing.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 22, 2017, 04:34:31 pm
Who cares what the lenses look like? It's what they can do that matters. And, without a change in their motor (i.e. completely new lenses, even if the optical formulae remain the same) there is no way the current Nikon lenses - or Canon lenses without the STM designation, for that matter - can work optimally with a mirrorless AF system.

The people shelling out $6,000-$16,000 care.

The look of Sony's super telephoto lenses is unbefitting for this kind of price tag, as is their current performance (under the helm of Sony), seeing as they're based on decades-old Minolta design/technology.



Not according to their financials, they're not. Their high-end sales alone can't pay for future lens and camera development, and at least one aspect of their high end - the high-resolution end, held up by the D810 - won't be so high-end any more once they come out with a mere 46MP against Sony's 70-80MP and Canon's likrly 60-70MP (with the dynamic range issue having been fixed now).

What are you basing your opinion on? All evidence (meaning in the form of cutting-edge cameras/lenses in the last two years) suggests Nikon does have the means to produce new and better equipment, really at a faster rate than almost anyone else to boot.



What are you basing this on, other than 'you like Nikon'? Even NikonRumors isn't suggesting any of this, with the sole exception of the D820/D850.

I am basing my opinion on the above. There have been a multitude of lenses that popped up by surprise, totally unexpected. The 105 f/1.4E, the 28mm f/1.4E, etc. I believe even the D500 was a surprise. Meanwhile, the D850 is a no-brainer that everyone is expecting.



It took Canon and Sony - much bigger companies than Nikon - six or seven years to get where they currently are with mirrorless, and that's coming from a background in video, which Nikon lacks. What makes you think Nikon is going to get there any time soon, with absolutely no background in it and no sensor manufacturing capability of their own (i.e. they literally couldn't make a sensor with on-sensor AF even if they wanted to)? Apart from the whole 'I like Nikon so they're the best at everything and have no flaws' thing.

The only reason Sony's where it is with mirrorless, is because that was their focus. Nikon has not been pursuing mirrorless. All of these companies have the means and technology to tear down the other's equipment, look at it, and build something relatively comparable.

You act like it's going to be some great mystery for Nikon to develop such a simple little tool, when the fact is Nikon has been developing and creating far more complex industrial copiers, lithography equipment, and (yes) cameras.

Shadow, wake up and smell the coffee: all companies essentially have the variations of the same thing. Sony merely turned a cute little trick by removing the mirror, which removes the shutter-sound (not sure that's a good thing, either), and it fires-off a bunch of images silently, which is then followed by a grossly-inconvenient "refractory period" where the unit is useless until it recovers. Nikon does not have this refractory problem.

Sony eye technology sounds James Bond-ish, but I'm not sure that's going to be an advantage ultimately, either, and will be wholly-dependent on a person's ocular reflexes, and many other things which will not create uniform results for all people. (What about when people have glasses/sunglasses on? :o) Personally, I think tracking is probably better-off the way it is, right now, especially with Nikon's 3-D-tracking controlled by the finger. Far better way to achieve uniform results.

The real question is, why can't you see all these cameras are essentially the same thing, and that while Sony is making improvements, they are pretty darned far away from being #1 ... apart from the 'I like Sony better than everyone else' thing?

Anyway, I didn't intend for this thread to be a Nikon/Sony debate, but a "future of current mounts" debate ... involving Canon and Nikon.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: how good will on-sensor PDAF get?
Post by: scooby70 on June 22, 2017, 05:51:37 pm
The people...

What on earth????
Title: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: Nikon's mirrorless know-how?
Post by: BJL on June 23, 2017, 10:28:47 am
Does anyone know what sort of AF motors are used in Nikon One system lenses? Do some have good, fast linear stepper motors? Because AFAIK, despite it market failure, the One system shows that Nikon has a fairly good set of technologies for reuse in a future EVF camera system in 24x16mm or 36x24mm format. (Not that I would go so far as to claim that Nikon has the same or greater product development resources as Canon!)

By the way, it seems to me that the main mistake with Nikon One (and more so with Pentax Q) was downsizing the format beyond the point where not enough further reduction is achieved in either cost or in the size of a camera body with adequate controls, displays and battery capacity—especially if an EVF is included. Then the main remaining advantage is some cute little lenses.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: Nikon's mirrorless know-how?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 23, 2017, 08:58:23 pm
Does anyone know what sort of AF motors are used in Nikon One system lenses? Do some have good, fast linear stepper motors? Because AFAIK, despite it market failure, the One system shows that Nikon has a fairly good set of technologies for reuse in a future EVF camera system in 24x16mm or 36x24mm format. (Not that I would go so far as to claim that Nikon has the same or greater product development resources as Canon!)

Yes, the Nikon 1 is the obvious proof that Nikon's issues aren't with technology, they are with marketing and product planning.

From a technology standpoint they have managed to be the very best at many of the things they tried. No need to remind the world that they invented VR and let Canon deliver the technology in usable ways. Examples abound.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: NancyP on June 23, 2017, 10:24:24 pm
The people shelling out $6K to $16K on a lens invariably use "LensCoat" neoprene wrap on the lens.  So who knows what the lens actuall looks like underneath the RealTree camo.  ::)
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Lester Davey on June 24, 2017, 04:33:23 am
Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2017, 05:34:54 am
Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.

Indeed. There is a small possibility that the D820 could ship in 2 versions, one EVF, one OVF. Quite unlikely though but not impossible. I would probably go with the OVF one but I am probably in the minority.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BJL on June 24, 2017, 08:55:00 am
Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.
Quite likely; with al this talk of future 35mm format cameras, we have perhaps overlooked that the smaller DSLR formats format generates more sales and revenue, and their OVFs are somewhat less satisfactory, so the attraction of an EVF is even greater.
The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount ...
There is no way that Nikon (or Canon) will reuse its SLR mount, which would severely hamper design choice for some lenses. This is particularly true of F mount, which is both deeper and narrower than EF mount. Nikon will follow what has already been done by Canon (EF-M), Sony, Olympus and Panasonic.

Maybe high-end models will come with the needed mount adaptor included in the price, and some super-glue to attach it permanently, reproducing the "benefits" or persisting with the SLR mount.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 24, 2017, 09:39:29 am
Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.

Presumably and hopefully are correct...that's all one can do today as Nikon has shown us squat as far as competency in the mirrorless world.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 24, 2017, 05:19:37 pm
The people shelling out $6K to $16K on a lens invariably use "LensCoat" neoprene wrap on the lens.  So who knows what the lens actuall looks like underneath the RealTree camo.  ::)

On the contrary, in sports, no one buys such LensCoats.

For wildlife, the only photographers who need to cover their eye-sore, position-compromising, can-be-seen-from-outer-space white lenses are those who've purchased them.

Nikon uses (as well as Sigma users) very often do not, because there is no need. Matte black doesn't stand out like a sore thumb; in fact, it can blend with the shadows.

Those wildlife shooters with dark lens variety may choose camo "just because" but don't have the same need to do so.

The same would be true for surveillance use.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2017, 05:24:29 pm
Presumably and hopefully are correct...that's all one can do today as Nikon has shown us squat as far as competency in the mirrorless world.

A bit unfair, the Nikon 1 remains one of the (if not the) fastest focusing mirrorless on the market. And focusing is the main challenge with mirrorless isn't it?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 24, 2017, 05:30:52 pm
Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.

I would prefer to see a full-frame version (that can use existing lenses with mount adjustments), and then a micro 4/3 version (with a new, smaller Nikkor lens portfolio to accompany it).



The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.

Agree.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 24, 2017, 08:11:23 pm
A bit unfair, the Nikon 1 remains one of the (if not the) fastest focusing mirrorless on the market. And focusing is the main challenge with mirrorless isn't it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe competency was the wrong word...Nikon is a big zero in the mirrorless market share. You are either all in or just get out as companies such as Sony, Fuji and Olympus are all in and making hey.

So far Nikon just tinkered with mirrorless. It will be interesting if Sony allows Nikon to use their sensors in mirrorless cameras...if not, that is a huge hurdle to cross.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2017, 09:29:29 pm
Maybe competency was the wrong word...Nikon is a big zero in the mirrorless market share. You are either all in or just get out as companies such as Sony, Fuji and Olympus are all in and making hey.

So far Nikon just tinkered with mirrorless. It will be interesting if Sony allows Nikon to use their sensors in mirrorless cameras...if not, that is a huge hurdle to cross.

Yes, indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on June 25, 2017, 09:59:59 am
There is no way that Nikon (or Canon) will reuse its SLR mount, which would severely hamper design choice for some lenses. This is particularly true of F mount, which is both deeper and narrower than EF mount. Nikon will follow what has already been done by Canon (EF-M), Sony, Olympus and Panasonic.

I doubt Nikon will design any new mirrorless mount as a replacement for the F mount. Starting from scratch in an already nearly-saturated mirrorless market would be suicidal. For good or bad, Canon and Nikon are slaves of their current systems and customer base. Sony, Olympus and Panasonic had a very different situation, they had little to loose and opened a new market.

Regards

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: adapt or commit suicide
Post by: BJL on June 25, 2017, 11:10:11 am
I doubt Nikon will design any new mirrorless mount as a replacement for the F mount. Starting from scratch in an already nearly-saturated mirrorless market would be suicidal. For good or bad, Canon and Nikon are slaves of their current systems and customer base.
Canon has already taken the approach that I predict in its "APS-C" format EOS M series, using a new mirrorless mount (EF-M) and offering an adaptor for using existing EF and EF-S lenses. And from what I have read, it is wide enough to work with 36x24mm format too. I see nothing suicidal about that approach to backward compatibility, and no reason why what works for Canon (along with Olympus, Panasonic, Sony etc.) would not also be the best approach for Nikon. The only mirrorless design suicide I have seen was the Pentax K-01 with its deep Pentax KAF lens mount.

It seems that some people believe that keeping the same lens mount—rather than using an adaptor for backward compatibility—is important to persuading SLR lens owners that those lenses will be usable on a mirrorless body.  I do not understand that—for one thing, my EM5 with mount adaptor attached is no bulkier or less convenient than a mirrorless body with Four Thirds SLR lens mount would be.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on June 25, 2017, 02:57:53 pm


Canon has already taken the approach that I predict in its "APS-C" format EOS M series, using a new mirrorless mount (EF-M) and offering an adaptor for using existing EF and EF-S lenses. And from what I have read, it is wide enough to work with 36x24mm format too. I see nothing suicidal about that approach to backward compatibility, and no reason why what works for Canon (along with Olympus, Panasonic, Sony etc.) would not also be the best approach for Nikon.

When a FF EF-M mirrorless appears in the market I'll agree with you. Meanwhile I'll consider the EF-M just an experiment Canon is doing to find out the interest of its customer base in mirrorless and working with adaptors. So far Canon has shown very little interest in developing an interesting lens lineup.

Let's assume Canon takes the way of replacing/migrating its FF EF line to a EF-M mirrorless: what kind of lenses would Canon produce? new EF-M lenses no EF user can buy? new EF lenses that need an adaptor over the new FF body and perpetuate the old EF system?.

I wish you were right, because a short flange Canon mirrorless body is something I'd be interested in. But I doubt present FF EF users will prefer to start messing with adaptors rather than just take their EF lenses and plug them onto the new EF mirrorless FF body.

Regards

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BJL on June 25, 2017, 03:33:32 pm
Let's assume Canon takes the way of replacing/migrating its FF EF line to a EF-M mirrorless: what kind of lenses would Canon produce? new EF-M lenses no EF user can buy? new EF lenses that need an adaptor over the new FF body and perpetuate the old EF system?.
A bit of both: exiting EF and EF-S lenses would continue to be offered, and new ones launchd, for as long as Canon DSLR users keep buying them; meanwhile, more EF-M lenses would be added. Canon has run two lens systems for many years (EF and EF-S), Nikon has juggled two and briefly three (FX, DX, 1) and I have lost track of how many lens lines Sony is offering during its complicated transition toward mirrorless!  So I am sure they can handle it.  Note for one thing that for focal lengths longer than about 50mm, there is no need to modify existing SLR lens optical designs, so they could be offered in two versions. For comparison, third party lens makers like Sigma, Tamron and Tokina have been offering more than two versions of many of their lenses, and are now offering a mix of both SLR and mirrorless-specific lenses.

But I doubt present FF EF users will prefer to start messing with adaptors rather than just take their EF lenses and plug them onto the new EF mirrorless FF body.

Photographers who abhor "messing with adaptors" can just put one in place permanently and keep using SLR-mount lenses exclusively!   However, camera makers cannot allow themselves to be so tied to the past, and to existing long-term customers at the expense of losing the next generation of photographers to more logical EVF camera designs from Sony, Olympus, Fujifilm and so on.

P. S. Maybe in the spirit of the Nikon Df, upscale retro EVF bodies with SLR-mounts could also be offered!
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on June 25, 2017, 04:02:25 pm
So in a market which is year after year becoming smaller and smaller, Canon has to produce: EF FF lenses, EF APS lenses, EF-M FF lenses and E-FM APS lenses. I don't swallow that.

Regards


Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 25, 2017, 05:35:35 pm
what kind of lenses would Canon produce? new EF-M lenses no EF user can buy? new EF lenses that need an adaptor over the new FF body and perpetuate the old EF system?.

Don't think it's that complicated.

CaNikon could produce their own adapters to existing lenses.

Much like a teleconverter, but no glass needed inbetween. Same fast AF as if nothing was there. (The teleconverter between my camera and lens doesn't limit my lens in any way.)

If anything, if the old EF or F-mount lenses faded, the whole lens wouldn't need to be redone ... just a small mount adjustment.

Adapters could go either way ... older glass to newer mirrorless camera ... and should there be a dedicated mirrorless mount in the future, this could likewise be adapted back to an older body ... making a complete obsolescence improbable.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 25, 2017, 07:07:32 pm
Don't think it's that complicated.

CaNikon could produce their own adapters to existing lenses.

Much like a teleconverter, but no glass needed inbetween. Same fast AF as if nothing was there. (The teleconverter between my camera and lens doesn't limit my lens in any way.)

If anything, if the old EF or F-mount lenses faded, the whole lens wouldn't need to be redone ... just a small mount adjustment.

Adapters could go either way ... older glass to newer mirrorless camera ... and should there be a dedicated mirrorless mount in the future, this could likewise be adapted back to an older body ... making a complete obsolescence improbable.

No thanks. One reason I moved away from DSLR's was the increasing bulk and weight of the system which includes lenses. No way would I take the behemoth existing lenses, add an additional adapter for more weight and bulk and then stick that only a mirrorless body...just to get a lens that has not been designed for that mirrorless system...but rather tacked on. Not a chance.

I want the benefits that go along with mirrorless and that is a reduction of bulk and weight...not a Frankenstein conglomerate of modern camera with lenses designed for a prehistoric system.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 25, 2017, 08:44:18 pm
No thanks. One reason I moved away from DSLR's was the increasing bulk and weight of the system which includes lenses. No way would I take the behemoth existing lenses, add an additional adapter for more weight and bulk and then stick that only a mirrorless body...just to get a lens that has not been designed for that mirrorless system...but rather tacked on. Not a chance.

I want the benefits that go along with mirrorless and that is a reduction of bulk and weight...not a Frankenstein conglomerate of modern camera with lenses designed for a prehistoric system.


You act as if "you" are the measure of all things ... and that all companies should alter their agenda to build 'you' the perfect gear for 'your' needs, to the exclusion of all others  ::)

Here's a thought you haven't been able to consider, thinking only of your own need: other people love those "behemoth lenses" without which they couldn't capture the wildlife/action that makes their world go round-and-round.

Now, if the finest telephotos can be have their dimensions reduced in the future, without losing quality, hey, we'd all welcome that. But right now, "it is what it is." Sony simply has nothing to offer professional sports/wildlife photographers ... except to (how did you say it?) offer a "Frankenstein conglomerate" of other companies' adapters + other companies' lenses. Yet even that is a loser for Sony.

In fact, in DP Reviews latest article, put up yesterday, concludes the recent "true pro" effort from Sony, the A9, proves dismal with Canon's two best lenses. The article directly criticizes the smallness of the A9 compared to true pro cameras (1Dx/D5):

"Battery grip all-but-required for comfortable use with larger lenses."

"... it seems like using off-brand glass while you wait for Sony to catch up just isn't a great option ... the lack of true subject tracking (Lock-on AF modes) or continuous focus at speeds higher than ~2.5 fps (or in video) will probably be a deal breaker for many fast-action photographers ... like all previous Sony bodies, you'll only have access to the a9's slowest continuous drive mode (2fps) when you're adapting your own glass."

Don't believe me, read the article: Sony a9 falls short with Canon 300mm and 400mm lenses (https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4134648312/video-sony-a9-falls-short-with-canon-300mm-and-400mm-lenses-attached).

If you can't handle larger glass, that's okay ... enjoy your gear. However, your repeated angry outbursts against large, elite telephoto lenses is getting old.

Allow people to make their own choices.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: uaiomex on June 25, 2017, 09:37:37 pm
Why not design an (in Canon case) EF-mount "dslr" body with a moving sensor carriage that could go from a 44mm flange to say 16mm?  It could also have its own AF Contax style.

This way all EF glass could be used instantly and would allow for the FF mirrorless lens line to grow. The same for any FF dslr manufacturer.

Eduardo


Don't think it's that complicated.

CaNikon could produce their own adapters to existing lenses.

Much like a teleconverter, but no glass needed inbetween. Same fast AF as if nothing was there. (The teleconverter between my camera and lens doesn't limit my lens in any way.)

If anything, if the old EF or F-mount lenses faded, the whole lens wouldn't need to be redone ... just a small mount adjustment.

Adapters could go either way ... older glass to newer mirrorless camera ... and should there be a dedicated mirrorless mount in the future, this could likewise be adapted back to an older body ... making a complete obsolescence improbable.

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 25, 2017, 09:49:45 pm

You act as if "you" are the measure of all things ... and that all companies should alter their agenda to build 'you' the perfect gear for 'your' needs, to the exclusion of all others  ::)

Here's a thought you haven't been able to consider, thinking only of your own need: other people love those "behemoth lenses" without which they couldn't capture the wildlife/action that makes their world go round-and-round.

Now, if the finest telephotos can be have their dimensions reduced in the future, without losing quality, hey, we'd all welcome that. But right now, "it is what it is." Sony simply has nothing to offer professional sports/wildlife photographers ... except to (how did you say it?) offer a "Frankenstein conglomerate" of other companies' adapters + other companies' lenses. Yet even that is a loser for Sony.

In fact, in DP Reviews latest article, put up yesterday, concludes the recent "true pro" effort from Sony, the A9, proves dismal with Canon's two best lenses. The article directly criticizes the smallness of the A9 compared to true pro cameras (1Dx/D5):

"Battery grip all-but-required for comfortable use with larger lenses."

"... it seems like using off-brand glass while you wait for Sony to catch up just isn't a great option ... the lack of true subject tracking (Lock-on AF modes) or continuous focus at speeds higher than ~2.5 fps (or in video) will probably be a deal breaker for many fast-action photographers ... like all previous Sony bodies, you'll only have access to the a9's slowest continuous drive mode (2fps) when you're adapting your own glass."

Don't believe me, read the article: Sony a9 falls short with Canon 300mm and 400mm lenses (https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4134648312/video-sony-a9-falls-short-with-canon-300mm-and-400mm-lenses-attached).

If you can't handle larger glass, that's okay ... enjoy your gear. However, your repeated angry outbursts against large, elite telephoto lenses is getting old.

Allow people to make their own choices.

Thanks.

Of course I'm only concerned with equipment that works for me...why would I care about equipment I'd never use? You seem to be fixated on looking by lenses where for me I have zero interest as I shoot landscapes and travel....that's why I move to your view inferior Sony system which fits very nicely for my needs.

I can say the same about your views of big heavy bulky equipment...
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 25, 2017, 10:30:38 pm
Of course I'm only concerned with equipment that works for me...why would I care about equipment I'd never use? You seem to be fixated on looking by lenses where for me I have zero interest as I shoot landscapes and travel....that's why I move to your view inferior Sony system which fits very nicely for my needs.

According to the article, the Sony A9 responds better to 3rd party lenses at modest focal lengths, but is "garbaagge" when handling super-telephoto lengths.

Also, tiny mirrorless are dwarfed by full-sized lenses. I have even heard people say the D500 is too small for primo primes.

The larger sizes of true pro cameras is a necessity ... unless someone can figure out a way to make world class super-telephotos "smaller" ...

The reason why I am fixated on lenses is because they're the biggest investment of all. Cameras are much more easily replaced.



I can say the same about your views of big heavy bulky equipment...

 ::)
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 25, 2017, 10:34:09 pm
Why not design an (in Canon case) EF-mount "dslr" body with a moving sensor carriage that could go from a 44mm flange to say 16mm?  It could also have its own AF Contax style.

This way all EF glass could be used instantly and would allow for the FF mirrorless lens line to grow. The same for any FF dslr manufacturer.

Eduardo

Hi. Interesting idea, but I think adapters would be much more practical.

Also, Sigma is able to change the mounts on their own lenses to fit different situations (Canon, Nikon, Sony). Thus, rather than selling/changing the whole lens, having a "mount-changing service" for the same great lens would be another solution.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2017, 12:49:08 am


The larger sizes of true pro cameras is a necessity ... unless someone can figure out a way to make world class super-telephotos "smaller" ...


Now this is a crock of sh*t. You do realize the vast majority of professional photographers do not use your so called "world class super telephoto" lenses. Professional that shoot portrait, weddings, journalists etc... have zero need for super telephotos. In fact the photographers that do rely on super telephotos are very much in a minority.

Maybe you should rephrase your statement say the minority of professional photographers, mainly sports, rely on super telephotos...whereas the majority of professionals have zero need for the big behemoth lenses and would do just fine with a more lighter compact camera and lens system.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on June 26, 2017, 04:00:08 am
Sony simply has nothing to offer professional sports/wildlife photographers ... except to (how did you say it?) offer a "Frankenstein conglomerate" of other companies' adapters + other companies' lenses. Yet even that is a loser for Sony.

Sony is not offering any of that, Sony simply doesn't have telephoto lenses right now, period. So if you belong to the niche of sports shooters Sony is not the best option right now for you.

Adapters, third party lenses, and how they perform on a Sony body is nothing to blame Sony about because they never offered such features. In the same way as Canon is not to be blamed because Sony GM, Leica or Canon FD glass cannot be used on Canon DSLR's.

Regards




Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: JKoerner007 on June 26, 2017, 08:53:48 am
Now this is a crock of sh*t. You do realize the vast majority of professional photographers do not use your so called "world class super telephoto" lenses. Professional that shoot portrait, weddings, journalists etc... have zero need for super telephotos. In fact the photographers that do rely on super telephotos are very much in a minority.

Maybe you should rephrase your statement say the minority of professional photographers, mainly sports, rely on super telephotos...whereas the majority of professionals have zero need for the big behemoth lenses and would do just fine with a more lighter compact camera and lens system.

You are an angry, ridiculous, broken record.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2017, 09:17:01 am
You are an angry, ridiculous, broken record.

Sorry, but you are the one that just focuses on your big telephotos and think a system is not professional until it has a full set. If you are a sports photographer then yes your system needs the telephotos, but for the other 99% of photographers, they don't even come into the picture.

You need to open up your narrow view of photography and see the vast majority don't need what you as a major item missing with Sony.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BJL on June 26, 2017, 11:29:31 am
One reason I moved away from DSLR's was the increasing bulk and weight of the system which includes lenses. No way would I take the behemoth existing lenses, add an additional adapter for more weight and bulk and then stick that only a mirrorless body
It is roughly a wash for total camera bulk, lens plus body. The extra bulk of the adaptor simply replaces the extra bulk at the front of an F-mount or EF-mount body due to the SLR lens mount needing to be further from the sensor (for example, 44mm for EF vs 18mm for EF-M). A mirrorless camera with SLR mount must have a bunch of empty space where the SLR mirror assembly used to be: look at how bulky the Pentax K-01 (mirrorless with SLR mount) is compared to Sony E-mount bodies in the same format—and the K-01 does not even have an EVF adding any bulk!.

So when reusing SLR lenses on a mirrorless body, it is a wash, and likewise when reusing SLR lens designs in mirrorless mount: camera with lens is the same length, but with longer lenses and a shallower body.  However, when using lenses designed to take advantage of the shorter registration distance, the new mirrorless mount often wins on total camera bulk. For example, compare the Olympus 12-60/2.8-4 lens for Four Thirds SLR mount (registration distance 38.67mm) to the Panasonic Leica 12-60/2.8-4 lens for Micro Four Thirds mirrorless mount (registration distance 19.25mm):
FT lens: W 79.5 mm, L 98.5 mm, 575 g
MFT lens: W 68.4 mm, L 86 mm, 320 g
(And that MFT lens has in-lens OIS adding some bulk, which the FT lens does not.)
Adding in the registration distance, the FT lens extends 137.17mm in front the sensor, while the MFT lens extends only 105.25mmL a difference of 32mm or 1 1/4 inches.
This is an example of how optimal mirrorless system design (not overly constrained by backward compatibility) allows, in your words, for "a more lighter compact camera and lens system."
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2017, 11:38:42 am
It is roughly a wash for total camera bulk, lens plus body. The extra bulk of the adaptor simply replaces the extra bulk at the front of an F-mount or EF-mount body due to the SLR lens mount needing to be further from the sensor (for example, 44mm for EF vs 18mm for EF-M). A mirrorless camera with SLR mount must have a bunch of empty space where the SLR mirror assembly used to be: look at how bulky the Pentax K-01 (mirrorless with SLR mount) is compared to Sony E-mount bodies in the same format—and the K-01 does not even have an EVF adding any bulk!.

So when reusing SLR lenses on a mirrorless body, it is a wash, and likewise when reusing SLR lens designs in mirrorless mount: camera with lens is the same length, but with longer lenses and a shallower body.  However, when using lenses designed to take advantage of the shorter registration distance, the new mirrorless mount often wins on total camera bulk. For example, compare the Olympus 12-60/2.8-4 lens for Four Thirds SLR mount (registration distance 38.67mm) to the Panasonic Leica 12-60/2.8-4 lens for Micro Four Thirds mirrorless mount (registration distance 19.25mm):
FT lens: W 79.5 L 98.5 mm, 575 g
MFT lens: W 68.4 L 86 mm, 320 g
(And that MFT lens has in-lens OIS adding some bulk which the FT lens does not.)

Yes, you are right. Lenses designed specifically for the mirrorless cameras and their regestration distances can be quite a bit smaller. The Batis and Loxia lenses designed for the Sony E mount are good examples of compact lenses that deliver outstanding image quality.

That's why I'd have zero interest in a mirrorless system that relies on the existing bulky DSLR lenses with adapters...what's the point when there are systems out there that offer native lenses specifically designed for mirrorless resulting in a much more compact setup.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: scooby70 on June 26, 2017, 11:47:58 am
Surely you have to take this on a lens by lens basis and judge each on its merits.

I've used some longer lenses on mirrorless cameras and I'd describe the handling as excellent with my hand under the lens and the aperture / focus / zoom rings falling readily to hand.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: BJL on June 26, 2017, 09:17:09 pm
That's why I'd have zero interest in a mirrorless system that relies on the existing bulky DSLR lenses with adapters...what's the point when there are systems out there that offer native lenses specifically designed for mirrorless resulting in a much more compact setup.
In turn, I completely agree. The only way that a mirrorless system makes sense to me is if I can build a kit that allows me to work most or all the time with "native" lenses. I see a place for a bit of use of one or two SLR lenses if (a) the mirrorless system does not [yet] have such a lens because it is rather special purpose, or (b) it is an expensive lens that I own and do not want to take the financial hit of selling and replacing.
In my case, I hang on to the Olympus 50-200/2.8-3.5 until there is a satisfactory MFT replacement. (Mirrorless bulk reduction is irrelevant with such a lens!)


P. S. And to Scooby70: I am also one who supports big lenses with my left hand near the balance point of the barrel, so the "lens-body balance" issue is irrelevant to me.
Title: Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
Post by: Farmer on June 27, 2017, 03:51:32 am
Surely you have to take this on a lens by lens basis and judge each on its merits.

I've used some longer lenses on mirrorless cameras and I'd describe the handling as excellent with my hand under the lens and the aperture / focus / zoom rings falling readily to hand.

Totally agree.  You can't make a blanket statement about it - has to be case by case.