Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: JoeKitchen on May 01, 2017, 09:57:34 pm
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I have been fooling around with motion, but only with DSLRs and Apple iMovie. What is a good program to look into getting to up the game?
I would prefer it to be able to grade RAW footage.
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A version of avid media composer is apparently available in June for free. Avid was at the beginning of nonlinear editing.
Their software has always been a very intuitive to use. It was also long the industry standard for editing movies.
https://www.avid.com/press-room/2017/04/free-media-composer-first
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If color is most important to you, you should look at Davinci Resolve. It has a reasonable editing module, and one of the best color engines in the world. And the upcoming version (v14, skipping 13) improves the edit module significantly, and adds serious audio capability. It can be had for free, or with a few extra features for $300. (Disclaimer: I have not yet tried the public beta of Resolve 14, but I use 12.5 for color regularly for color work.)
If editorial is more important, there are more choices: Adobe Premiere, Apple Final Cut Pro (Mac only), Avid Media Composer, Lightworks, Sony Vega (PC only).
Each has its own "philosophy" of editing, and for someone who is only editing their own stuff, finding the one that clicks with you will make a lot of difference. (If you will be working with other editors, you should consult with them. Switching projects between software is a minefield.) I believe all of them have a free trial period, so it's easy to try them out. Once you decide which one you want to settle on, it is definitely worth doing some of the on-line training courses to get up to speed.
Final Cut and Premiere include pretty good color correction capabilities; both can work from raw files, but neither is on a par with Resolve for color.
Hope this helps.
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I have been fooling around with motion, but only with DSLRs and Apple iMovie. What is a good program to look into getting to up the game?
I would prefer it to be able to grade RAW footage.
Joe, sorry for such a long post.
first you have to decide where your going with this. You might not know just because you might like it, have talent doing it and all clients, even in standard movie and TV have different workflows.
Just like still photography they’re are many styles and genre’s and just like still photography you can do a lot in post, with the only difference being costs. Doing 2 frames with a lot of correction in stills is simple compared to doing a 10 minute 40 cut motion piece.
1. Are you going to 4k, 2k, both.
2. Are you going to a high bit rate digital cinema camera like RED, Arri, Variflex, F55/65, etc.
3. Are you going to do dialog (on set sound).
4. As D Fuller asks are you going to work collaboratively with other editors, or DIY.
5. Will you be required to work on location?
6. Will you have one or two DIT men/women on set. This is vital as not only can a good DIT guy keep you on track, he/she will spot any issue with camera, exposure etc and check the integrity of the data.
7. Most important. Will you get paid for this?
For editorial suites:
People will disagree because there are options in editorial stations.
FCPX out of the box if you know nothing about editing is the easiest. It’s somewhat frustrating for experienced editors and if you hand off to other editors many won’t spend much time on it.
The thing with Apple is you never know if they’ll drop the software at a whim.
AVID was the gold standard, for long form and high end commercials still is, though AVID is a big learning curve and is mainly keyboard based.
Filmworks is usually used for long form work, where the editor hands off the edit to an effects house and color grader to do finish.
Since the demise of fcp7 which had about 75% of the pro market, most editors moved to premier. Premier can be good, frustrating, stable or a crash test, depending on computer platform.
Once again D Fuller is correct on resolve’s color engine. It’s beautiful on all footage I’ve tried except for the small sony’s, but that’s just me because other than the Sony F5 and up I can’t get consistent colour from the smaller sony’s without a huge amount of work. Be aware that up to the latest beta of resolve it uses huge volumes of vram 4 gigs minimum. Resolve is good for color correction and conforming, but it’s not the most robust editor, though you can edit with it.
If your going to premier on a mac or the latest dell boxes you’ll easily be into 6 to 9 grand for a proper machine if your going to get heavy into this and edit and conform in uhd and 4k.
In fact all but the top machines can bog down, even working in proxy or some form of proxy, because the machine is still conforming to high bit rate codecs in the background, unless you tick the right boxes.
Also apple and Microsoft seem to be at war with each other, as apple doesn’t support PC’s and PC’S do not support windows media player, which nobody edits in but some corporate clients need wmv for review and I’m sure this will get more intense.
Now just be aware. I don’t care who you are, what you do, but since you seem like a person that is all pro, you’ll want to learn as much as possible. I know a lot of dp’s and operators around the world and you’d be amazed at the number of dp’s that wouldn’t know resolve if it landed on them. They add a LUT from a DIT guy/girl, then shoot, hand off the footage and go home. On a project a year ago I hired a new 2nd operator. We did a day of setup and testing and I know my cameras well, and I told him when in doubt stop it down.
Instead he went online read some post that said open up, so I ended up with hours of footage overexposed. It was a fit to rebuild skies and fake detail back into the whites.
So my bottom line is whatever you choose, always test it, even when you know it, look at it on a good screen, preferably a broadcast screen and then you know.
Best of luck.
BC
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Thanks all for that advice, and BC, to be honest, I have no idea what it is I want to do. My other half is getting into motion as well; she directed her first major motion project with a major Drug company and was way out of her league. Fortunately she had a great crew, the client liked the final cuts and did not seem to notice. They were waiting on her at the beginning of the day to actually say, "quiet on the set, sound, rolling, action!," but she was able to play it off as it being too early and not enough coffee yet.
So we are thinking about fooling around with motion on our own.
We are both pros and want to shoot at that level, or really a commercial level, not so much documentary style.
My goal right now to learn an editing system that would allow me to get the hang of dealing with grading and cutting, and learning sound to a degree. Also, putting together a reel for my site. On a paid project I would certainly higher an editor and sound guy and hand that over to them. Plus, my other half's close cousin works for one of the most reputable editing firms in NYC and is one of the lead editor, so we do have that resource to lean on too. (I would not be surprise if he worked on something you shot, lots of TV commercials though; Super Bowl is busy season for him).
Anyway, I always prefer working in RAW due to the great color depth. 4K would be nice too, allowing me to crop if need be.
If I were to put something together, I would most likely rent a Blackmagic URSA. As you may know, I work in NYC but live in Philly. Philly does not have great resources for rentals and Blackmagic is really the limit. But anyway, I am in no means ready to fool around with a RED or an Alexa.
Insofar as where I would shoot, locations are my speciality; not too much into being stuck in a studio. I really love lighting a space and already have all the fresnel lights and floods anyway.
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I have not ever had anyone tell me what Resolve cannot do.
I do not see a reason to go any other way.
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I'd go Resolve. I've used Premiere for 15 years and while I still like and appreciate it (and how much it has grown) Resolve is fantastic with color and I don't feel like anything else compares. So much that it's worth using it as an editor (even though I feel it's not quite up to par as Premiere) to keep workflow simple.
I've been using the beta version 14 of Resolve and it's much faster now than it was at 12.5. Premiere shined at playing back hi res footage quickly while Resolve really required the use of proxies. But not so much anymore. I can watch graded UHD files from an Ursa Mini Pro in Resolve on a 2015 MBP pretty smoothly. 4k not so much, but it's better than it was. And working with proxies isn't a big deal anyway if you have to (which if you shoot 4k/4.6k RAW on an ursa mini, you'll most likely have to without knowing the machine you're running).
And if you really want to play with color, Resolve will be nice to know so that when you shoot a paid project, you'll know what you can get when it goes out to a colorist. And as an owner of a BMD Ursa Mini Pro, give shooting to ProRes a try if you do rent one. You can still grade the files a ton but you won't need a massive amount of space to store the files.
And keep in mind Resolve 14 is still in beta. It has some issues that will hopefully be fixed soon before its full release.
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I think resolve is a good option, but there are always bugs for a while.
It all depends if your going in your own closed loop or going outside or both.
Personally, I never thought I'd say this, but I've thought about moving to fcp X. It's great for someone like Joe that doesn't have a history in traditional editing suites, because X is a snap if your starting fresh.
Since Apple finally updated their new powerbook pro to 16 gb of ram, 2 tb of ssd drive and 4 gigs of vram, for short form motion, you can work almost anywhere. FCP X is strange to me as I have so much time on the original FCP studio, but it's fast, kind of easy unless you do a lot of keyframing. I just don't know where Apple is going. Will they keep X or leave it? Nobody seems to know and though there are not that many pro editors working in X, you can produce an xml and it will pick up most of the edit, if you need to hand it off.
But for grading Resolve does have a beautiful color engine.
IMO
BC
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Thanks BC. I am still thinking resolve would be best, my only hold up is my computer. It just does not have the juice needed.
I was looking at the new MacBooks; mine is almost 3 years old and could be do for an upgrade. You think the new release would be worth it?
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Thanks BC. I am still thinking resolve would be best, my only hold up is my computer. It just does not have the juice needed.
I was looking at the new MacBooks; mine is almost 3 years old and could be do for an upgrade. You think the new release would be worth it?
Yes I do, but it's on the limit. You can configure it to $3700 if you buy refurbished. I looked at one last night and man are they skinny. Obviously I couldn't load software at the apple store (I thought about it) but didn't have any files on me anyway.
You'll probably have to run resolve in a proxy mode when working, then switch over to full for conforming but you have to do that with most machines and nearly all software suites. Doing 4k in post, especially raw is not for the faint of heart.
If you have a 2010 or 2012 5,1 silver mac these guys in London can bring it up to speed for about $3,500 and you'll need a usb 3 card to run fast external drives.
https://create.pro/
P.S. I understand shooting 4k to stop alaising and moire but all 4k is not created equal. In my view RED, BM and obviously Arri looks like film stock so it doesn't have that hard crisp video look like some cameras, though post work changes everything.
In fact most of the movies you've seen for years have been shot on 2.7k open gate Arri's, so I'm not that over excited about 4k viewing, though what I think doesn't matter, it's what the client thinks.
RED called me yesterday and offered me an amazing upgrade deal on an 8k helium sensor camera, but I just shutter at the thought of debayering 8k but I guess it's coming.
IMO
BC
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Joe,
Rather late to the game but .....
The thing about editing is that it's the craft of it that's important, not the software. Most of the newer packages are predicated on poor editing principles. If you just want to muck about FCPX I suppose is a good bet as is Premiere Pro, I suppose.
If you really want to get to grips with it, go for Avid. You'll be forced to do things in are LESS intuitive way, but by learning Avid, you'll learn lots of important things about cutting.
In terms of editing, Resolve is terrible. If you only have a couple of dozen shots then maybe it's OK, other than that, forget it. Round tripping from Avid to Resolve works quite well. Cut in Avid, take it into Resolve for CC, and delivery.
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Why is resolve terrible - Im not an experienced editor but no one has told me what is bad?
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did avid just give away a lite version?
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did avid just give away a lite version?
Yes, you can find it here.
http://www.avid.com/media-composer-first?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWVRSalltRmlZbUkwWkRVMSIsInQiOiJYVWFwd1dyRk1aRmhJNTZhREJSOGpHU1ZLeEdyNWVRQWt1eUpsNDN2bkNWSk50YmpLVDNEdytjZyswM0ZjOW5jU0ZFS0xPYWtxWEE1M01Zb2szeGZzb1ZDSk1wWUVtd0w5Mnl3eWpVUjVUbU5RQ0ZmTkI4eDVQS3lOWU5VQjFIMSJ9
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Although this is (https://www.videomaker.com/article/b01/18358-editing-software-buyer-s-guide) a 2016 article, it's still worth a look.
D.
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... I think doesn't matter, it's what the client thinks.
... but I just shutter at the thought of debayering 8k but I guess it's coming.
IMO
BC
And the saga keeps going!
When this nonsense is going to stop?
4k as "minimum requirements” has just poped-up and here we go...it seems already pre-obsolete because of 8k.
Then we will have 16k..32...64.
Oh! Now the fashion remains 4k but not on small sensors...naaa...that is past rubbish! The buzz to be in is MF 4k with snake covered digital back and director seat gifted on purchase with a 1year of Adobe suite super bollywood production.
Sooo
4k super35 then 4k MF (I wonder how they havent thought yet on 4k LF). Then 8k mini, small, super35, MF, LF, HugeLF
In post it's gona be fun indeed.
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And the saga keeps going!
No saga here.
BM doesn't really gift it, they want you to buy the whole version which is much more comprehensive and of course a console and maybe a few cameras, i/o boxes and decks. Nothing wrong with that because they make good stuff.
If money is an issue you can buy a tangent wave console for 1/4 the price and learn to grade, so you don’t need bm’s console.
Or buy the tiny one. Personally I have both and both have issues.
Still BM have been kinder than any company that sells software. My dongle from v8 still works with 12.5, not cost. I guess that’s a gift.
The only issue with cutting in bm version 12.5 in 4k and though I haven’t used v14 is you really do need a 7 grand to 10 grand computer with a huge video card and only ssds and the price won’t change from a custom mac 5,1 to the latest and greatest HP, actually by the time you add raids external boxes etc. you’ll pass 10 grand faster than a lambo closing in on a old vw beetle.
Don’t get me wrong, resolve is not a bad editorial system, not great but ok and as DF says the best color engine in the biz.
It all depends on what you do, who you sell/show to. If you’re going 4k native you better have a long talk with yourself and your client about the costs and time involved.*
Remember most of what you’ve viewed at the cinema is 2.7 to 3 point something K, so don’t get hung up on pixel numbers, get hung up on color, depth, bit rate, etc.
I’ve said this before but Ridley Scott’s the Martian was produced in a little over 2k because they couldn’t afford to do the helmet effects in 4k.. 4k is not twice as hard it’s at least 8 time as hard if your using a high bitrate, high depth camera you need one heck of a machine. if 4k on an I phone, anything will work.
IMO
BC
PS1
* In all seriousness, unless a client demands it, you don’t need to worry about 4k delivery, just 4k shooting, to stop moire and allasing.
Motion imagery takes huge time and if you want to creep in on a shot, or crop it, then you go to resolve, set it at full max, crop what you want, then put it in your 2k timeline on whatever editorial system you chose.
Just remember to burn out a 2k and 4k version**
But remember, only Avid, (long learning curve) and BM work natively on Mac and PC. Apple doesn’t play well with adobe and nobody but Apple can run fcpX without more work than it takes to build a nice home.
**Now me, I use about everything, though right now I’m cutting in fcp7 for a 4k project. Once finished I’ll reconnect the media in 4k, make my adjustments and go to bed. By morning it should be ok.
But then again I know fcp 7 better than I know my wife so anything I save from a few minutes of editing and an overnight render means nothing to me.
I know, I know fcp 7 is deader than hoffa, but 5 of my computers will run it smooth and I know how to take it to 4k so who cares and btw if it works for the cohen bros. it can work for me.
In fact if Apple came out with a fcp8 they could sell it for 5 to 8 grand and I promise you it would sell big. Not big on apple iPhone scale, but in our industry big.
And this isn’t just me talking’ it’s the industry because before the debacle intro of fcpx apple had 75% of the nle biz.
PS2, if you want to make beautiful imagery that supports a story use the best camera you can afford. I was a RED guy but next either Arri or BM. You need all the Bits/Bytes PS you can get and all the depth so unless you have it your just pushing problems. If a sky bands it bands and it takes about 5 grand to fix it. Playing at home is fine, everyone will go ooh and ahh but it won't take you where you want to be.
IMO
BC
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No saga here.
BM doesn't really gift it, they want you to buy the whole version which is much more comprehensive and of course a console and maybe a few cameras, i/o boxes and decks. Nothing wrong with that because they make good stuff.
If money is an issue you can buy a tangent wave console for 1/4 the price and learn to grade, so you don’t need bm’s console.
Or buy the tiny one. Personally I have both and both have issues.
Still BM have been kinder than any company that sells software. My dongle from v8 still works with 12.5, not cost. I guess that’s a gift.
The only issue with cutting in bm version 12.5 in 4k and though I haven’t used v14 is you really do need a 7 grand to 10 grand computer with a huge video card and only ssds and the price won’t change from a custom mac 5,1 to the latest and greatest HP, actually by the time you add raids external boxes etc. you’ll pass 10 grand faster than a lambo closing in on a old vw beetle.
Don’t get me wrong, resolve is not a bad editorial system, not great but ok and as DF says the best color engine in the biz.
It all depends on what you do, who you sell/show to. If you’re going 4k native you better have a long talk with yourself and your client about the costs and time involved.*
Remember most of what you’ve viewed at the cinema is 2.7 to 3 point something K, so don’t get hung up on pixel numbers, get hung up on color, depth, bit rate, etc.
I’ve said this before but Ridley Scott’s the Martian was produced in a little over 2k because they couldn’t afford to do the helmet effects in 4k.. 4k is not twice as hard it’s at least 8 time as hard if your using a high bitrate, high depth camera you need one heck of a machine. if 4k on an I phone, anything will work.
IMO
BC
PS1
* In all seriousness, unless a client demands it, you don’t need to worry about 4k delivery, just 4k shooting, to stop moire and allasing.
Motion imagery takes huge time and if you want to creep in on a shot, or crop it, then you go to resolve, set it at full max, crop what you want, then put it in your 2k timeline on whatever editorial system you chose.
Just remember to burn out a 2k and 4k version**
But remember, only Avid, (long learning curve) and BM work natively on Mac and PC. Apple doesn’t play well with adobe and nobody but Apple can run fcpX without more work than it takes to build a nice home.
**Now me, I use about everything, though right now I’m cutting in fcp7 for a 4k project. Once finished I’ll reconnect the media in 4k, make my adjustments and go to bed. By morning it should be ok.
But then again I know fcp 7 better than I know my wife so anything I save from a few minutes of editing and an overnight render means nothing to me.
I know, I know fcp 7 is deader than hoffa, but 5 of my computers will run it smooth and I know how to take it to 4k so who cares and btw if it works for the cohen bros. it can work for me.
In fact if Apple came out with a fcp8 they could sell it for 5 to 8 grand and I promise you it would sell big. Not big on apple iPhone scale, but in our industry big.
And this isn’t just me talking’ it’s the industry because before the debacle intro of fcpx apple had 75% of the nle biz.
PS2, if you want to make beautiful imagery that supports a story use the best camera you can afford. I was a RED guy but next either Arri or BM. You need all the Bits/Bytes PS you can get and all the depth so unless you have it your just pushing problems. If a sky bands it bands and it takes about 5 grand to fix it. Playing at home is fine, everyone will go ooh and ahh but it won't take you where you want to be.
IMO
BC
I like Blackmagic. I think it's a great company that does things right. I think I used the word "gifted" in another thread reffering also to the full package wich cost is a bang for the buck compared to other platforms, so in a way it's a gift, thus the expression.
BM business model is rational, and man, if they want us to buy their stuff and they're good, I applaude.
The only reason I don't like Resolve is the fact that their editorial implementation ain't for me, as a personal preference, otherwise the app is great.
However, beyond the goods, there is IMO something rookies should keep in mind that has to do with what you pointed here:
I'm not a video guru as you know, but I've been in this buzz long enough to clear my mind about the fact that it's not just parts of the pipeline that matters but the all entire chain.
As you said, if you have banding you have banding. And in motion numbers can jump very fast at the speed of light.
Everybody talks 4k, Resolve, Raw, and it looks to me that they are all Warren Buffet cause to make the all package works smoothly how many grands have to be thrown on the table?
Big houses do not care because they have the cash and the people skills. However what about the independants and small business? This is where I see nonsense and I don't think Resolve is always the best bet for everyone for the sake that it' cheap and colorist standard.
In many cases it can be more a burden than a simple NLE like FCP.
Many people can buy a second-hand Ferrari. And many newrich do...until they realise the cost of maintenance when comes the first bills. Then they sell it and buy a Mazda.
The other day I saw 2 high-end dudes in this industry who work for film. And they were saying the same, something like: "when I see students crazy about Resolve and so on, I smile cause they think they're going to get the look in post while they became unable to shoot properly from capture; cine implies lightning and many more before it ever reaches the grading facility".
Like people who want to shoot fashion and they don't lite, don't hire a MUA...and think that PS frequency separation is going to open the golden gate of Vogue editos.
Let's take Lightworks users as I know it. A part from the 3 or 4 dudes on the top who use it to cut Scorcese and don't post in forums, most are independants film makers on budget. They all work with consummer cams and they all roudtrip Resolve like crazy. What's the point? None! Mystic. You don't get better results if the source material is crap and the 32bits floating point and color science ain't doing the job better because what most dudes do is applying Luts they downloaded here or there and have very limited knowledge on how to use the 1/2 capacity of Resolve. If it's all about applying Luts of questionable provenance and turn 3 wheels, output in youtube my-journey-in-Chandernagor or the-life-of-the-mountain-cows for a bio milk company, then the 16bits editor does that with all flavours and imaginable combinations and output to any theater standard required.
An Avid or Lightworks workstation can run on relatively low cost computers and designed to edit very fast and well.
Resolve is heavy and system demanding.
Many dudes on Avid with Baselight license would be well served.
I've seen people on FCPx with a bunch of plug-ins who did great stuff right out the box without the need to learningcurving a color app with all the complexity involved.
The mystic that everyone is a colorist is a fable. Many will fall from the tree of illusion sooner than later.
Your motion imagery is good because your still imagery was good. No mystery. Cause and efect. You had the skills, just that now it moves. And even if you have to learn new skills, the criterium, the base is there to drive you where you want to.
The only thing that changed indeed are the costs.
Nobody talks about costs. Why? I think that the world is under a great deal of marketing hypnosis. 4k, 8k...wao...ohhhh...
4k already is big in terms of costs and workflow. 8k? Are they kidding.
And storage? And proxies and backups? and computers, and monitors...rarely hear about costs.
So there are rational options IMO for everyone, depending on each case/business model.
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I know, I know fcp 7 is deader than hoffa, but 5 of my computers will run it smooth and I know how to take it to 4k so who cares and btw if it works for the cohen bros. it can work for me.
In fact if Apple came out with a fcp8 they could sell it for 5 to 8 grand and I promise you it would sell big. Not big on apple iPhone scale, but in our industry big.
And this isn’t just me talking’ it’s the industry because before the debacle intro of fcpx apple had 75% of the nle biz.
Agree on fcp8...but ironically, remember when fcp had this very
Good color app? A truth NLE with a truth color app that would work
Smooth on any workstation.
And only the color app pops-up when required?
That is what makes more sense to me.
Instead of an all-in-one that is so ressources demanding
And not so great for editing.
Well, this FCP8 exists actually. On both windows and Macs so
You can write Prorezzz
Avid plus Baselight edition.
I know...I would hear here or there that there is nothing such as Resolve
For color. But Baselight is also a standard in the world of professional
Colorists and works more the way
Photographers are used to.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mRXDHE_XAM
This is FCP8. IMO. It works just like the antique fcp
Did but with 2017' capabilities.
Ps: it's worh to watch the entire video to the end. The interesting parts do not start at the beginning.
Ps2: did I say it's worth to watch the link?
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A couple thoughts about color grading for "beginners".
Resolve is a computer intensive software that requires some relatively (to photoshop) heavy computing power. Even just for editing without color correction.
The Resolve manual is something like 1000 pages. And it's not always easy to understand. Unless you are truly serious about becoming a colorist, you may well be overwhelmed.
Color grading is not as simple as it would seem. Often, shots don't match even when shot on the same camera in the same setting. Daylight changes intensity and color constantly and you need to match all the shots to look like the weather never changed. Lenses that look like they match at a glance show that they don't match at all when cut from one clip to the next. Next throw in filter changes and you'll soon discover that almost every clip needs it's own custom color correction. And it's not unusual for shots that "technically" match don't look like a match when cut together because the background walls are different colors perhaps. So it's about "feel" of matching as much as it's about a "technical" match.
If one is just starting out in motion picture editing, I think FCPx or Adobe Premiere are a good place to start. They don't require heavy computer horsepower like Resolve and are kind of industry standards. Why learn some obscure software that nobody else uses?
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If one is just starting out in motion picture editing, I think FCPx or Adobe Premiere are a good place to start. They don't require heavy computer horsepower like Resolve and are kind of industry standards. Why learn some obscure software that nobody else uses?
I think because one brings up the Mac v Windows issue, and the other brings up the subscription issue which a lot of people, myself included, don't like.
D.
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I think because one brings up the Mac v Windows issue, and the other brings up the subscription issue which a lot of people, myself included, don't like.
D.
Agree. The subscription-only formula is a bit of an hassle. I don't like not not have choice.
Then maybe Blackmagic is your way.
If you're on PC, you have 3 other alternatives: Edius, Avid and Lightworks.
Lightworks works smooth now for short form since they have added an interface
That won't scare newcommers. But it is more really aimed towards film, long form editorial.
They also have an all integrated impressive system for TV live coverage with servers etc...
Built arround it called Flow; but it's way beyond the range of independant film makers.
Edius from GrassValley is solid and easy to use. They use it on TV but more in Asia.
Avid would be my best bet as a Resolve alternative, specially with
Baselight. But it's more expensive than Resolve.
So in the end, Resolve seems to be your best choice if you don't
Want the subscription system.
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Agree. The subscription-only formula is a bit of an hassle. I don't like not not have choice.
Then maybe Blackmagic is your way.
If you're on PC, you have 3 other alternatives: Edius, Avid and Lightworks.
Lightworks works smooth now for short form since they have added an interface
That won't scare newcommers. But it is more really aimed towards film, long form editorial.
They also have an all integrated impressive system for TV live coverage with servers etc...
Built arround it called Flow; but it's way beyond the range of independant film makers.
Edius from GrassValley is solid and easy to use. They use it on TV but more in Asia.
Avid would be my best bet as a Resolve alternative, specially with
Baselight. But it's more expensive than Resolve.
So in the end, Resolve seems to be your best choice if you don't
Want the subscription system.
Thanks for that.
I've been playing with Resolve for about a week now. Really starting to like it.
D.
Ps. I wish I knew how to match footage with different aspect ratios! My only problem so far.
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If money is an issue you can buy a tangent wave console for 1/4 the price and learn to grade, so you don’t need bm’s console.
Or buy the tiny one. Personally I have both and both have issues.
Interesting cause I had a view on those. What are your thoughts?
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Interesting cause I had a view on those. What are your thoughts?
It depends on how much grading your doing, how deep etc.
The Wave is good, though mine is pretty large given the controls do not take up much space on the board, so you’ll need a deep desk, or if you keep going back and forth you’ll do a lot of scooting around.
The cheapest tangent is the ripple at $350 and like everything in the imaging world can go up to astronomical prices.
I think the bm micro panel at $1,000 might do all you want.
Find a rental house and they might help you out.
IMO
BC
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Don’t get me wrong, resolve is not a bad editorial system, not great but ok and as DF says the best color engine in the biz.
I gave it a second look in what editorial is concerned and it's not that bad indeed once one gets into it. It gets the job done.
I don't see it for massive/creative editorial because there are better and more specialized platforms for that (after all it is primary a color app), but...I admit that it works well as an all-in-one.
PS: another thing I discovered is that Premiere (I do not like the cloud business model...) had before speedgrade for color (she was hot!) and they removed it, integrated now into the editor itself under the oscur terminology of Lumetri. It's quite good actualy, with tracking tools, shapes, HSL etc...all the tools for color. So step by step Adobe also goes sort of all-in-one.
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I gave it a second look in what editorial is concerned and it's not that bad indeed once one gets into it. It gets the job done.
I don't see it for massive/creative editorial because there are better and more specialized platforms for that (after all it is primary a color app), but...I admit that it works well as an all-in-one.
This thread is covering a lot of territory, from cameras, to color to editorial suites.
My thoughts on all of this it’s personal.
But to give my bottom line on my long (sorry for that) reply is I can edit well in Resolve.
I know people new to editorial love FCPX, In fact I know people that went straight from fcp to X, fought through the learning curve and love it. People new to editorial have no muscle memory and the long learning curve on other NLE’s. People coming from traditional NLE’s and the functions, naming, workflow seem to have more problems with X.
I do like X’s browser, but the rest makes me spend more time thinking of the system rather than the story and we all know editorial is the final rewrite of the story, or better put it is the story.
I still love FCP 7 because of my experience with it, tried like crazy to be comfortable with X, can make it work, but it drives me crazy. Premier works ok, it’s not my favorite mostly because I don’t find it 100% stable in my Macs and secondly I don’t like subscription models.
Last week, I had a 1 hour conversation with a company that specialized in building custom computers for post production and they are configuring one for me now. Apple or PC I would strongly suggest going to a company that specializes in video systems. They might be a little higher than buying from a direct source, but they know what professional post production is, the issues of delivering 4k and the company I deal with didn’t try to sell me up, in fact they sold me down, to get the system I needed, not the one I originally wanted. Same with internal and external drives, especially in reliability and speed.
They said when FCPX came out along with Adobe’s pay as you go system, they had customers downgrade their operating system, so they could run Premier 5 (maybe 6 don’t remember), so the editors could own the software in their computer(s).
I’ve always worked in Resolve for colour but now with v12.5 and v14, I find Resolve to be a good editorial system, much better than I thought even a few weeks ago.
For anyone new to resolve, I suggest taking 5 clips, do a quick edit and test ALL of the settings on ingest, editing, colour, gamma then output. Also use the fastest ssds you can and as much video ram as possible.
I know in editorial we’re suppose to think of the edit first, regardless of colour and looks, but we are all visual people and dropping almost any file into resolve and it’s colour engine, out of the box gives you the prettiest look of anything I’ve used.
It’s also nice to stay in the same system and do a quick one light color adjustment, even on the first edit, because with a lot of client’s you can tell them to look at the story and we’ll go to finish once the edit is locked. They always say “sure” but always make a comment on colour so I make sure even at the first edit, the colour is good.*
I have a lot of respect for Black Magic and more than anyone seems to put a lot of effort into offering a complete front to back eco system at very good prices.
Now with cameras, I have a lot of them, too many, love my R1’s though on this recent project used a 1dxII and the RED’s. Canon doesn’t get much love on these forums, but the colour and depth of the 1dx II files are way beyond what any 4:2:2 8 bit camera should produce.
Most dp/operators don’t like the dslr form factor, but doing a combo project with motion and stills I can’t think of a better camera and Canon colour is really good. In fact most of the dp’s I know that reluctantly have moved from film to digital, prefer the Arri and I must admit for cinema work the color, the lack of casting, the whole system is extrodinary.
The downside is huge files that will burn through C-fastII cards quickly and the files are huge, but it’s a workhorse for this type of project.
I don’t want to get ahead of myself and jink this, but we’re up for a good budgeted, great scripted movie. The best visual script I’ve read in 10 years. Once the green light is set, I’m going to test Alexa, My RED MX, a RED dragon and helium, and for grins throw in a Canon C300 or 500. I have a feeling that the Alexa will produce the look we’re aiming for, but I’m positive my MX REDs will be on set.
Once again it’s all personal, what I’m shooting, who I’m working for and I try to always keep in mind the most important have fun start to finish, that and stay hydrated.
If you’re a small shop, a do it yourself type of person, you learn quick that pre and post are so important and if done right the shoot day seems easy in comparison. I’m lucky that I work with my wife who is the producer, sometimes the stylist/prop master and though she has little time on set, does the best makeup I’ve ever seen, but the cool part is if I shoot something she likes she doesn’t say much, but I can feel it, same with something she doesn’t like. Then she never says a word, but I can feel in a minute if she doesn’t and she’s always been right.
IMO
BC
*We just finished a commercial, working with a CD that was new to video (motion). This person was fixated on things I didn’t think was important when I viewed the piece in whole, but listening to the comments I realized the CD who was use to still photography, was looking at each cut frame by frame, like it was a still shoot.
In the recut, I selected sections that could be viewed that way, frame by frame and it was approved in an hour.
-
This thread is covering a lot of territory, from cameras, to color to editorial suites.
My thoughts on all of this it’s personal.
But to give my bottom line on my long (sorry for that) reply is I can edit well in Resolve.
I know people new to editorial love FCPX, In fact I know people that went straight from fcp to X, fought through the learning curve and love it. People new to editorial have no muscle memory and the long learning curve on other NLE’s. People coming from traditional NLE’s and the functions, naming, workflow seem to have more problems with X.
I do like X’s browser, but the rest makes me spend more time thinking of the system rather than the story and we all know editorial is the final rewrite of the story, or better put it is the story.
I still love FCP 7 because of my experience with it, tried like crazy to be comfortable with X, can make it work, but it drives me crazy. Premier works ok, it’s not my favorite mostly because I don’t find it 100% stable in my Macs and secondly I don’t like subscription models.
Last week, I had a 1 hour conversation with a company that specialized in building custom computers for post production and they are configuring one for me now. Apple or PC I would strongly suggest going to a company that specializes in video systems. They might be a little higher than buying from a direct source, but they know what professional post production is, the issues of delivering 4k and the company I deal with didn’t try to sell me up, in fact they sold me down, to get the system I needed, not the one I originally wanted. Same with internal and external drives, especially in reliability and speed.
They said when FCPX came out along with Adobe’s pay as you go system, they had customers downgrade their operating system, so they could run Premier 5 (maybe 6 don’t remember), so the editors could own the software in their computer(s).
I’ve always worked in Resolve for colour but now with v12.5 and v14, I find Resolve to be a good editorial system, much better than I thought even a few weeks ago.
For anyone new to resolve, I suggest taking 5 clips, do a quick edit and test ALL of the settings on ingest, editing, colour, gamma then output. Also use the fastest ssds you can and as much video ram as possible.
I know in editorial we’re suppose to think of the edit first, regardless of colour and looks, but we are all visual people and dropping almost any file into resolve and it’s colour engine, out of the box gives you the prettiest look of anything I’ve used.
It’s also nice to stay in the same system and do a quick one light color adjustment, even on the first edit, because with a lot of client’s you can tell them to look at the story and we’ll go to finish once the edit is locked. They always say “sure” but always make a comment on colour so I make sure even at the first edit, the colour is good.*
I have a lot of respect for Black Magic and more than anyone seems to put a lot of effort into offering a complete front to back eco system at very good prices.
Now with cameras, I have a lot of them, too many, love my R1’s though on this recent project used a 1dxII and the RED’s. Canon doesn’t get much love on these forums, but the colour and depth of the 1dx II files are way beyond what any 4:2:2 8 bit camera should produce.
Most dp/operators don’t like the dslr form factor, but doing a combo project with motion and stills I can’t think of a better camera and Canon colour is really good. In fact most of the dp’s I know that reluctantly have moved from film to digital, prefer the Arri and I must admit for cinema work the color, the lack of casting, the whole system is extrodinary.
The downside is huge files that will burn through C-fastII cards quickly and the files are huge, but it’s a workhorse for this type of project.
I don’t want to get ahead of myself and jink this, but we’re up for a good budgeted, great scripted movie. The best visual script I’ve read in 10 years. Once the green light is set, I’m going to test Alexa, My RED MX, a RED dragon and helium, and for grins throw in a Canon C300 or 500. I have a feeling that the Alexa will produce the look we’re aiming for, but I’m positive my MX REDs will be on set.
Once again it’s all personal, what I’m shooting, who I’m working for and I try to always keep in mind the most important have fun start to finish, that and stay hydrated.
If you’re a small shop, a do it yourself type of person, you learn quick that pre and post are so important and if done right the shoot day seems easy in comparison. I’m lucky that I work with my wife who is the producer, sometimes the stylist/prop master and though she has little time on set, does the best makeup I’ve ever seen, but the cool part is if I shoot something she likes she doesn’t say much, but I can feel it, same with something she doesn’t like. Then she never says a word, but I can feel in a minute if she doesn’t and she’s always been right.
IMO
BC
*We just finished a commercial, working with a CD that was new to video (motion). This person was fixated on things I didn’t think was important when I viewed the piece in whole, but listening to the comments I realized the CD who was use to still photography, was looking at each cut frame by frame, like it was a still shoot.
In the recut, I selected sections that could be viewed that way, frame by frame and it was approved in an hour.
James, nice to read your interesting posts, as always.
Agree on Resolve and editorial.
Nice to hear that you got inspiring projects. Take care.
Ps: I need to put my hand on the Canon you mentionned.