Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Bernard ODonovan on April 19, 2017, 01:59:56 pm
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http://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-9
DSLRs may finally have met their match and then some...
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Working on an article now. Very impressive camera and I think the beginning of a new line of cameras for Sony. 100-400mm lens impressive. I'll be shooting with this camera all day tomorrow. More later.
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A9R no doubt on the way...
The A9 will change how some pros work. Silent shooting will be a game changer for many fields of photography...
Look forward to your review...
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Battery Life (Still Images) Approx. 480 shots (Viewfinder) / approx. 650 shots (LCD monitor) (CIPA standard)
So you can shoot at 20FPS for almost a minute?
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So you can shoot at 20FPS for almost a minute?
"CIPA standard" would be a set of standard shooting periods, AF operations, shutter operations. They state on that page:
"The LCD screen is turned on, shot once every 30 seconds, operate zoom alternately between W and T ends, flash strobe once every two times, turn power off and on once every ten times."
In 20FPS mode you have no mechanical shutter. The period of live view and or viewfinder would be limited. Therefore you should be able to shoot more than the standard is measuring...
http://www.cipa.jp/index_e.html
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Fascinating stuff! I love the way Sony is pushing the barriers.
The key for me though will be the AF performance compared to the D5, and availability of a lightweight 400mm f2.8.
The a7 was far behind on moving subjects, let's see how much better the a9 is. The 25% claim worries me a bit.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I will be shooting all day with this tomorrow. Based on what I have seen and from what I have been told the AF is amazingly fast. As always really need to wait for a production unit for a real test.
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I will be shooting all day with this tomorrow. Based on what I have seen and from what I have been told the AF is amazingly fast. As always really need to wait for a production unit for a real test.
I am sure it is amazing on static subjects, the real challenge is fast moving ones under varying light situations.
But I sure hope that the a9 performs well in these situations too.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have long suspected that Canon (and probably Nikon) has been developing good EVF camera technology, but holding back on putting it into higher-end EVF cameras so long as such products would cannibalize their SLR sales more than they would win new sales or avoid losing sales to a competitor. If the Sony A9 lives up to its promise, with C-AF that works well at the high frame rates, that competitive threat is now much larger, and it is time for Canon and Nikon to fully enter the era of "all-electronic cameras".
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Sony promises us a day that will challenge the a9. We will start with ice hockey and figure skating then in the afternoon they aren't saying anything other than it is one of the biggest photo events they have ever done. Photos are embargoed until the end of next week for whatever reason but look for a report by end of next week. I have to say based on my experience today that this camera is a performer tomorrow should be a good test. Exciting times.
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So you can shoot at 20FPS for almost a minute?
I think the buffer is limited to 240 Raw images, didn't pay attention to the JPEG limit.
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Looking forward to the report. It is great to see that Sony continues to push the boundaries. All it requires now to be taken seriously by pros:
1. More long lenses (a slow 100-400 zoom is really not ground-breaking);
2. Robust support for pros, a-la Canon CPS.
P.S. I suppose this is just a detail, but this thread should be on the "Compact system cameras" forum, which is dedicated to mirrorless. Otherwise, just merge it with this one?
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Kevin Raber,
If there was any chance you could have a look in the menu and see if Sony has offered any other "aspect ratios" other than the standard 3:2, that would be amazing!
I would love to see a 5:4 offered but would be happy with those that are in the RX1R2 (3:2, 1:1, 4:3 and 16:9).
Hopefully Sony has implemented these in the the new A9! Had a chance to try the Fuji GFX and the various aspect ratios in that camera is seriously impressive..
Thanks so much in advance, look forward to hearing your thoughts :)
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Can't wait for the A9r.
Going for the action-oriented A9 first is a big gamble. Sony is up against Canon and Nikon in their strongest area - high-speed action photography. Not only does the AF have to be up to par, but they also need fast, long lenses. I doubt Sony will score a big win here. They may build up their credibility in this field and tear a few users away (probably the 'photojournalist'-type photographers rather than the dedicated action shooters) but are unlikely to carve out a big market for themselves, at least with this first model.
The A9r will be a much easier win for Sony. It's up against the 5D4, 5Ds/r (and successor) and D810 (and successor) - cameras with solid general-purpose AF systems capable of shooting action competently, but not specialised in it. Sony already holds the sensor card, and it'll be easier for the AF system to match the 5D4 or D810 than to match the 1Dx2 or D5. It's quite possible - likely, even - that the A9r will beat all of these cameras in every respect.
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Looking forward to the report. It is great to see that Sony continues to push the boundaries. All it requires now to be taken seriously by pros:
1. More long lenses (a slow 100-400 zoom is really not ground-breaking);
2. Robust support for pros, a-la Canon CPS.
P.S. I suppose this is just a detail, but this thread should be on the "Compact system cameras" forum, which is dedicated to mirrorless. Otherwise, just merge it with this one?
You are implying Pro sports photographers right. For everything else like weddings, portraits, photo journalists, event photography...these are already being shot by pro's and the A9 will just step up their game.
Shooting events like plays or speeches or wedding in total silence will be a game changer.
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You are implying Pro sports photographers right. For everything else like weddings, portraits, photo journalists, event photography...these are already being shot by pro's and the A9 will just step up their game.
Shooting events like plays or speeches or wedding in total silence will be a game changer.
Yep, I think that this is the real target and it is probably a much wider market that top sports pros shooting with the super tele.
This may also be the last carry around camera anyone would ever need, so incredibly closer to the ideal Leica camera than the M ever could dream of being. No doubt that this is what HCB would be shooting with if he were alive... in June when it ships.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I wonder how fast autofocus will be with adapted Canon lenses. That might be an interesting solution for the long telephoto and all the other niche specialty glass that Sony doesn't cater to. Everyone I know personally that shoots Sony A7/S/R series don't own any Sony glass. They are using all Canon lenses.
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Yep, I think that this is the real target and it is probably a much wider market that top sports pros shooting with the super tele.
This may also be the last carry around camera anyone would ever need, so incredibly closer to the ideal Leica camera than the M ever could dream of being. No doubt that this is what HCB would be shooting with if he were alive... in June when it ships.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, that was what I was implying, fast action photogs in general, being sports or wildlife.
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You are implying Pro sports photographers right. For everything else like weddings, portraits, photo journalists, event photography...these are already being shot by pro's and the A9 will just step up their game.
Shooting events like plays or speeches or wedding in total silence will be a game changer.
Don't forget video! This is finally starting to look like the future we were promised many years ago when mirrorless bodies started flooding the market.
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I wonder how fast autofocus will be with adapted Canon lenses. That might be an interesting solution for the long telephoto and all the other niche specialty glass that Sony doesn't cater to. Everyone I know personally that shoots Sony A7/S/R series don't own any Sony glass. They are using all Canon lenses.
I have an A7R2 & A6300 and used a Canon 70-200 f4 L lens for a while and while it was OK the autofocus wasn't ideal, I sold it and bought the FE 70-300 f4.5-5.6 lens and I love it.
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Don't forget video! This is finally starting to look like the future we were promised many years ago when mirrorless bodies started flooding the market.
Video indeed, for weddings and other events more than sports.
Phone-cameras and mirrorless cameras without EVFs are frequently trashed because "you have to hold them at arm's length and the rear screen is washed out by the sun" — well when it comes to video on a DSLR, the exact same applies.
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Video indeed, for weddings and other events more than sports.
Phone-cameras and mirrorless cameras without EVFs are frequently trashed because "you have to hold them at arm's length and the rear screen is washed out by the sun" — well when it comes to video on a DSLR, the exact same applies.
It's even worse, as many DSLRs don't have the same bright OLED displays as some phones do. Stabilization is also an issue, without IBIS you need extra gear to keep them steady or use a stabilized lens (usually limited in selection and never faster than 2.8).
A lot will come down to battery performance, though. If you can go through a wedding day without worrying about batteries (for stills only, with two batteries in the grip) then Sony has a serious contender in their hands.
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expected price point about 5.250 €
must be a good camera :o
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"Continuous Drive Speed (approx. max.)*6
AUTO/Electronic Shutter: Continuous shooting: Hi: max. 20 fps, Mid: max. 10fps, Lo: max. 5 fps*7 *8 *9,
Mechanical Shutter: Continuous shooting: Hi: max. 5 fps, Mid: max. 5fps, Lo: max. 2.5 fps
Flash Sync. Speed*3 1/250 sec."
"Specifications and features are subject to change without notice.
*1 When using phase-detection AF, limited lenses will be compatible initially. Expansion is planned by body firmware update.
*2 1/32000 shutter speed is available only in the S and M modes (there are no intermediate settings between 1/16000 and 1/32000). The highest shutter
speed in all other modes is 1/16000.
*3 With compatible Sony external flash
*4 A flash cannot be used when [Shutter Type] is set to [Electronic Shut.]. A flash can be used during continuous shooting with [Shutter Type] set to [Auto].
The mechanical shutter will be used.
*5 With compatible external flash
*6 Varies according to shooting conditions or memory card used.
*7 When A-mount lens is used via mount adopter, the speed of continuous shooting varies depending on the attached lens.
*8 When the Focus Mode is set to AF-C (Continuous AF), the speed of continuous shooting varies depending on the attached lens. See Sony support page
for compatibility details.
*9 During uncompressed RAW shooting, 12 images are shot per second at maximum.
*10 Supports Micro USB compatible device.
*11 (Configuration method/Access method) WPS or manually /infrastructure mode. When connecting to smartphones, the camera can always work as a
base without a wireless access point. (Security: WEP/WPA-PSK/WPA2-PSK)
*12 The LCD screen is turned on, shot once every 30 seconds, operate zoom alternately between W and T ends, flash strobe once every two times, turn
power off and on once every ten times.
*13 Continuous movie recording is possible for approximately 29 minutes (limited by product specifications).
*14 Indication recording time, which is defined by repeating the cycle: Power on, start recording, zoom , stand-by and power off.
*15 The total movie recording time. When the limit of the continuous movie recording time (29 minutes) is reached, let the camera continue movie
recording by pressing the MOVIE button again. No other operation such as zoom are performed."
"Support for uncompressed 14-bit RAW format
For RAW recording, 14-bit RAW output and 16-bit image processing help preserve maximum detail and produce images of the highest quality with rich tonal gradations. The 14-bit RAW (Sony ARW) format ensures optimal quality for later image adjustment (via Image Data Converter or other software)."
The shutter is rated for 500,000 cycles. @ Max of 5 FPS it is less stressed than a pro DSLR...
The Max electronic shutter for A mount adapted lenses is said to be 10 FPS. The adapter will need a firmware update for that
Dual card slots but one is the slower UHS-I type
The magnesium alloy body has dust and moisture resistance around most of its controls and buttons, albeit not guaranteed to be 100 percent dust and moisture proof
No Sony S-log in video
So really will only give full performance on specific E Mount lenses. Given the lens selection it is not going to bother Canon or Nikon at the 1DX ii and D5 level...
Body wise it is still A7 sized which is pushing it towards those willing and able to give up a chunky camera suited to big pro lenses. The grip to lens barrel finger clearance is poor
It is chipping away at the Canon and Nikon for DSLR users that may benefit from things like the silent shooting, full focus point spread, balanced low level AF and Metering which both have the same low light spec
I really get the feeling SONY are over performing in the original market they were targeting. They still have not produced a body and dare I say lens mount, if the thin flimsy ones that were on the original A7's are still part of the design, to take on Canon and Nikon
For those lucky enough not to need bulky tough pro gear, the specs of this new Camera are amazing. Shame about the price. It may be a limited market for these reasons...
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Yes, that was what I was implying, fast action photogs in general, being sports or wildlife.
Very small market that is declining. It highly visible because we all watch sports and see the photogs, but overall that market is puny compared to weddings or portraits. I can totally see why Sony has left that market to others.
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The a9 will be available on 5/26 in Japan.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There seems to be a fair head of excitement about this body, but I found Hugh Brownstone's article interesting. I am a keen amateur and have had images published. I also take images for a local magazine. I have a Canon 5D3 with 3 lenses inc the 100-400 Mk2, and a Fuji x-t1 with 2 zooms and 2 primes. To me this is a considerable investment and it meets my needs. In the case of Sony, the rate at which new bodies are introduced makes me wonder how people feel who have invested in one, only to find a newer, 'better' body arrive very quickly. I am not going to upgrade to a Fuji x-t2 nor a Canon 5D4 as I cannot justify the cost even allowing for trade-in. As for going to Sony, I would have to use an adapter and my Canon lenses, and I am not sure I am convinced how well that would work.
If others feel as I do, at whom is this camera aimed? Will professional photographers, who must already have one or more bodies and high spec (expensive) glass, be able or want to justify the spend? At the rate new bodies are being churned out, I am amazed that the development costs can be recouped.
Am I a lone voice in the wilderness, wondering where all the people are that can keep paying frequently for upgrades?
Jonathan
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I'm a keen amateur. I bought the A7rii not that long ago. I'm *very* excited by the A9. I will probably wait about 6 months and then either grab one or see what else might have come out. Why? Because the A7rii gives me the resolution that I wanted and the A9 would give me the speed that I want. For most things I do, either would do so they function as backups, too.
I'm not worried about frequent upgrades. I think it's much better to have frequent major updates then infrequent minor ones. Give me everything you have when you have it - don't either just dribble it out when you feel like it or, worse still, don't innovate. Nope, go for it - spam it out - many, huge advances that's what I want to see and then I will buy in when it suits me (i.e. I like it and I can afford it and I think it's worthwhile).
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There seems to be a fair head of excitement about this body, but I found Hugh Brownstone's article interesting. I am a keen amateur and have had images published. I also take images for a local magazine. I have a Canon 5D3 with 3 lenses inc the 100-400 Mk2, and a Fuji x-t1 with 2 zooms and 2 primes. To me this is a considerable investment and it meets my needs. In the case of Sony, the rate at which new bodies are introduced makes me wonder how people feel who have invested in one, only to find a newer, 'better' body arrive very quickly. I am not going to upgrade to a Fuji x-t2 nor a Canon 5D4 as I cannot justify the cost even allowing for trade-in. As for going to Sony, I would have to use an adapter and my Canon lenses, and I am not sure I am convinced how well that would work.
If others feel as I do, at whom is this camera aimed? Will professional photographers, who must already have one or more bodies and high spec (expensive) glass, be able or want to justify the spend? At the rate new bodies are being churned out, I am amazed that the development costs can be recouped.
Am I a lone voice in the wilderness, wondering where all the people are that can keep paying frequently for upgrades?
Jonathan
I sympathise with this problem. For many years I used Canon cameras. The Canon 5D was the first affordable full-frame I bought, which I was generally pleased with, apart from noticeable banding and noise in the deep shadows.
When Nikon introduced its first full-frame, the D3, which clearly had lower noise than the 5D at low ISOs but not so much at higher ISOs (1600 and beyond), I couldn't justify the cost of a new camera and new lenses.
However, I was seduced into buying the Nikkor 12-24/F2.8 zoom because an adapter was available so I could use the lens with my Canon 5D.
Unfortunately, the adapter was not as good as I had hoped and limited the flexibility of the system.
When the Nikon D700 was introduced, which was basically a cheaper version of the D3, I decided that my rather expensive and excellent quality Nikkor 14-24 zoom deserved a fully compatible camera body. The D700 body was cheaper than the lens.
For a while I used the two brands, the Canon 50D cropped format with a number of Canon lenses, and my D700 with 14-24 zoom. As Nikon continued to improve the fundamental specs of its sensors, I couldn't resist buying the D7000 then the D7100, the D800E, then the D810, plus a few Nikkor lenses, so it's a long time since I used my Canon equipment, although it's still sitting on my shelves.
I'd be very reluctant to get sucked into a 3rd brand such as Sony, especially considering all the problems I've read about the adapters for Canon and Nikkor lenses.
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There seems to be a fair head of excitement about this body, but I found Hugh Brownstone's article interesting. I am a keen amateur and have had images published. I also take images for a local magazine. I have a Canon 5D3 with 3 lenses inc the 100-400 Mk2, and a Fuji x-t1 with 2 zooms and 2 primes. To me this is a considerable investment and it meets my needs. In the case of Sony, the rate at which new bodies are introduced makes me wonder how people feel who have invested in one, only to find a newer, 'better' body arrive very quickly. I am not going to upgrade to a Fuji x-t2 nor a Canon 5D4 as I cannot justify the cost even allowing for trade-in. As for going to Sony, I would have to use an adapter and my Canon lenses, and I am not sure I am convinced how well that would work.
If others feel as I do, at whom is this camera aimed? Will professional photographers, who must already have one or more bodies and high spec (expensive) glass, be able or want to justify the spend? At the rate new bodies are being churned out, I am amazed that the development costs can be recouped.
Am I a lone voice in the wilderness, wondering where all the people are that can keep paying frequently for upgrades?
Jonathan
You are not a lone voice, I can join you:) I have never ceded to the allure and swan song of getting the latest and greatest. I always consider potential changes and associated cash outlay very carefully. I used Canon EOS for 20 years, got my first digital camera in 2004 (Powershot Pro1), first DSLR in 2009 (5DMKII). Finally, in February 2015 moved to Sony A7, to save weight and size, for what I like to shoot. Matter of fact, I just got another Sony A7 (the original one) for a very good price, it does all I want for landscapes on a tripod.
My advice: get what you need, and stick to it until you really need to upgrade. As for the Sony A9, no doubt it is a valiant move from Sony, they must consider that the tech is finally mature to challenge the big boys. Of course the camera is being hyped all over the photo news, as it generates clicks... once the dust is settled, we shall see.
Finally, since you mention the article posted today about the A9: I always take with a large grain of salt a piece that starts by saying that the "DSLR is dead, and so on..." I mean, It gets repeated so often, maybe someday someone will actually be right... Today, I still see tourists and lots of pros using DSLRs... here in Lisbon, Portugal, I must be one of the few guys using an A7... or a MILC, for that matter. All I see are entry level DSLRs.
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There seems to be a fair head of excitement about this body, but I found Hugh Brownstone's article interesting. I am a keen amateur and have had images published. I also take images for a local magazine. I have a Canon 5D3 with 3 lenses inc the 100-400 Mk2, and a Fuji x-t1 with 2 zooms and 2 primes. To me this is a considerable investment and it meets my needs. In the case of Sony, the rate at which new bodies are introduced makes me wonder how people feel who have invested in one, only to find a newer, 'better' body arrive very quickly. I am not going to upgrade to a Fuji x-t2 nor a Canon 5D4 as I cannot justify the cost even allowing for trade-in. As for going to Sony, I would have to use an adapter and my Canon lenses, and I am not sure I am convinced how well that would work.
If others feel as I do, at whom is this camera aimed? Will professional photographers, who must already have one or more bodies and high spec (expensive) glass, be able or want to justify the spend? At the rate new bodies are being churned out, I am amazed that the development costs can be recouped.
Am I a lone voice in the wilderness, wondering where all the people are that can keep paying frequently for upgrades?
Jonathan
You are not a lone voice at all.
There's no need to pay full whack for good kit. There is a mountain of nearly new, refurb, on sale and used equipment out there, often quite new and of superb quality. Much of it will provide good service for years, especially the lenses.
The new Sony A9 is probably much more about the sensor than anything else. My understanding is that it is a new design which brings new capabilities. There is more processing power on the sensor itself and in time as Sony develop and perfect the tech that will bring things like EVFs not blacking out, very sophisticated AF, improved video and frame rates, and much less or even no need for a mechanical shutter. The A9 offers a taste of that. In say 5 years' time, many new cameras will have it. So call it a glimpse of things to come for "only" $4500. The cost of developing the sensor technology is probably huge but the cost of developing the A9 body is probably peanuts by comparison. The real money to make doesn't come from the cameras but from the sensors and the IP. I guess some of Sony's competitors may be a little worried about whether Sony will let them have a taste of the stuff, though. The rest of current A9 coverage is just the internet hype machine in overdrive, I think.
I've no real need for any of this with what I do. Nice to know it will eventually turn up, perhaps, but it doesn't change anything here. If I buy anything over the next year, it will probably be secondhand Nikon or something and good for years of enjoyment.
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You are implying Pro sports photographers right. For everything else like weddings, portraits, photo journalists, event photography...these are already being shot by pro's and the A9 will just step up their game.
Shooting events like plays or speeches or wedding in total silence will be a game changer.
I shoot headshots and corporate events. If this focuses well on speakers and such, with the silent shutter, I'll switch from Canon. I don't need lenses longer than 70-200. The lenses are more $ than the Canon equivalent; however, not a lot considering the expected life. The current G and GM line has enough for me. I can rent a Canon body and 17 TSE as needed.
I rented the OM D M1 MII and had too much trouble with focusing at conferences. I shot four events (about 30 hours of photo coverage with Canon side-by-side to OM) with the OM system to really try and make it work. Was not as impressed with ISO 3200 as some reviewers. The black out was hard to get used to as well.
Planning on renting the a9 to test it out.
Wedding and event photographers I've spoken with this week are very interested due to the silent shutter with no blackout. Most of us are not concerned there will be any issues with Sony sensors.
What I want in a system is dual cards, decent high ISO (up to 3200 - more is a bonus), fast and accurate focus on single point, quiet, and zoom lenses from 16mm to 200mm, plus a few primes. Sony covers the 16-35 (I use the 17-40 f4 so no big deal on aperture), 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8 decently. Plus, I'd have IBIS. I've read the DxO lens review as well as the Lensrental review and I think for most photographers, we'll not see any quality difference between Canon and Sony lenses. It will take a while to get used to the opposite direction of zoom ring rotation.
The a9 is a lot more $ than a 5DIV, so it better focus fast and accurate, because $ 1000 is significant for silent shutter and IBIS.
It would have been really cool if the OM system worked since it is smaller and cheaper. I may try it again or maybe a Sony - OM combo (assuming the Sony works for me).
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Can someone please test that after a burst, are you still held captive like you are on the A7rii from review images until all are written?
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You are implying Pro sports photographers right. For everything else like weddings, portraits, photo journalists, event photography...these are already being shot by pro's and the A9 will just step up their game.
Shooting events like plays or speeches or wedding in total silence will be a game changer.
This sounds excellent for low light ballet performance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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This sounds excellent for low light ballet performance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeh I remember reading someone new with the 1dx camera saying they just love the sound of the 1dx rattling off at top speed. I thought to myself at the time, you might like it, but everyone else around you are probably very annoyed...sort of like smoking.
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Yeh I remember reading someone new with the 1dx camera saying they just love the sound of the 1dx rattling off at top speed. I thought to myself at the time, you might like it, but everyone else around you are probably very annoyed...sort of like smoking.
That is the one aspect I find truly appealing and differentiating about the a9, leaving the marketing hype aside.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Almost a brilliant camera and then boom - Canon-like behavior by omitting the s-log in video.
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Almost a brilliant camera and then boom - Canon-like behavior by omitting the s-log in video.
This will not be the only A9 camera. Most likely there will be a A9S, dedicated to video.
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Almost a brilliant camera and then boom - Canon-like behavior by omitting the s-log in video.
For me this was a bit of a surprise. This is just a software thing, not sure what Sony was thinking... As every other reviewer points this out.
Yes, the main market for this camera is not video. But you can buy this camera to shot action, sports, weddings, etc... And you can also do some short of videos, not having picture profiles (cine4, s-log... ) will make quite difficult to match latter on color if you are using also more than one Sony camera to record a scene... Also, in some situations, you will need log to be able to record the entire dynamic range of a scene...
For me Sony is doing an error trying to segment their market... Maybe all the bad press will make them change their mind and add it in the final firmware or in a firmware update...
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Sadly it would seem that the sensor tech in this camera is sensitive to artificial light such as LED signage. Severe banding in unprocessed shots occurs even in mixed ambient lighting. As long as some of the light hitting a subject is from an artificial source banding will occur. This happens on in focus and out of focus subjects ruining the shot. It is not something you can edit out...
I doubt Sony can fix this model, so this camera is looking more and more like a geeks toy rather than a serious tool to rely on...
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That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.
I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.
Cheers,
Bernard
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That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.
I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.
Cheers,
Bernard
Regards the sky, that is another nail in its coffin then, not good...
The banding I mentioned does not affect Canon or Nikon DSLRs shot in the same conditions. Nor does it relate to banding in shadow or when files pushed in some older DSLRs... No this is a nasty obvious interaction between the sensor structure and function with LED source lights in particular. LED lighting is replacing most lighting types everywhere, even street lighting...
I no longer see a market for this camera. It seems it was not dead on arrival but dead in the design room...
Look out for a coming fire sale...
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That case of banding seems also present with some DSLRs.
I am more worried by the banding reported by Lloyd Chambers in red channel in natural light situation because that seems fairly visible in skies.
Cheers,
Bernard
Images I've seen posted really look amazing and show no banding. Speaking with pro's that use this camera to make photos indicate the quality of the images is simply great.
There are photographers who make photos and there are click bate Internet mouths whose soul goal is to dig deep into a system...find a minor issue and make a mountain out of it so they get more views which leads to more money.
I've long ago decided to not rely on people's opinions that are sponsored by the manufacturer as well as people's opinions that benefit by luring you to their websites by sensationalism. Both have jaded views and anterior motives. I rely on talking with honest people that use the equipment day in, day out. They give me the real scoop.
If you look at any camera, you will see they all have issues...yet look at the amazing photos being created.
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The banding I read about affected 2% of the images taken...
Trouble is, had the same shots been taken then it would be 100%...
It is the lighting causing it where other DSLRs are immune to the effect...
I have no reason to suspect they are click baiters and I would even suggest they are playing it down as they are in genuine disbelief and really want this SONY to deliver...
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The banding I read about affected 2% of the images taken...
Trouble is, had the same shots been taken then it would be 100%...
It is the lighting causing it where other DSLRs are immune to the effect...
I have no reason to suspect they are click baiters and I would even suggest they are playing it down as they are in genuine disbelief and really want this SONY to deliver...
I guess if you shoot into the sun or very bright light...then this camera is not for you, but for the rest of us that don't have the urge to shoot into the sun creating blown out areas...we are just fine.
Like I said, show me a single camera...just one, that does not have issues.
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I guess if you shoot into the sun or very bright light...then this camera is not for you, but for the rest of us that don't have the urge to shoot into the sun creating blown out areas...we are just fine.
Like I said, show me a single camera...just one, that does not have issues.
I was not taking about that the type of shooting you suggest...
My example was someone in day light or dusk shooting sports and normal subject shots getting sensor banding... Just ordinary shots due to the presence of some near by LED signage and not the signage reflection or colour cast...
If someone stays clear of artificial light and does not shoot the sky then sure it sounds like a great non pro camera or alternative body a pro may carry...
The price does not justify the issues that are being revealed...
On a completely separate note, I do find it funny how when someone tests a SONY and it over heats that others suggest it must be an error in the report. The lens in use has a big effect so saying it did not affect them does not mean it was not an issue for the person testing and reporting the issue...
The final word with any camera will be how a person uses it, and in that sense you are quite right, if it works for them then it is a fantastic camera...
I think it is great that we have so many testers out there to push this stuff in to different shooting conditions and find out how it actually performs, rather than just what SONY marketing said...
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Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.
Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.
It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.
Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.
I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.
Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.
It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.
Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.
I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
Future is being written right now. So far in 2017, mirrorless is outselling DSLR cameras. If this continues for the remainder of the year, this will be huge. DSLR's have plateaued and new releases show very little compelling reasons to upgrade except for the very few that get GAS with every release.
Talking with the guys at my favourite camera shop, the A9 has been selling very well and continues to sell out with each shipment. Now this isn't a store like B&H, but it does a good business. The speed, AF and silent shooting are the key selling points.
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Of course when you see all this you start to wonder if Nikon and Canon didn't take a conscious decision not to release to the market mirrorless high end cameras that appear not to be fully ready for prime time as generic tools.
Because the D5 and the 1DmkII are expected to work day in day out in any light as perfectly reliable tools.
It is quite puzzling why Sony took the huge risk to go after that market instead of going first against the super high res slow shooters that are a lot less demanding.
Anyway, the A9 remains an interesting offer, but its shooting enveloppe ends up being much more narrow than initially thought. It's main strength probably is street/event photography where it competes against the 5DIV, soon the D820 and the M10. The Sony being faster (but who really needs that?) and silent in exchange for a higher price tag and smaller set of native AF lenses.
I don't think it is an easy sell past the silver bullet chasing initial quick adopters. Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
Correct, it has been said that they don't like launching new technology on the flagship models. They need to be 100% products not failing in anyway. They prefer to fully test in a lesser product to unearth those hidden issues. We know they have all had their problem cameras even when these precautions are taken and hence we have seen moves in popularity between Canon and Nikon...
As for SONY, they have nothing to lose and their development curve is stepper, they are in a race to dominate the market and were well behind their plans not that long ago. They don't have the long tele pro market with their lack of lenses that will keep them at bay...
The small size of the A9 is a give away that they are just not taking the D5/1DX market seriously. They are still aiming at the users that may not need the DSLR design and want a portable alternative to add to their set up...
If the problems highlighted have growing user impact this could become their first lesson not to use their customers as test lab rats, and the speed people could dump their gear and head back to trusted suppliers may take them by surprise. At the moment they are still relying on fringe users who can still use their old gear when it simply must work...
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Correct, it has been said that they don't like launching new technology on the flagship models. They need to be 100% products not failing in anyway. They prefer to fully test in a lesser product to unearth those hidden issues. We know they have all had their problem cameras even when these precautions are taken and hence we have seen moves in popularity between Canon and Nikon...
As for SONY, they have nothing to lose and their development curve is stepper, they are in a race to dominate the market and were well behind their plans not that long ago. They don't have the long tele pro market with their lack of lenses that will keep them at bay...
The small size of the A9 is a give away that they are just not taking the D5/1DX market seriously. They are still aiming at the users that may not need the DSLR design and want a portable alternative to add to their set up...
If the problems highlighted have growing user impact this could become their first lesson not to use their customers as test lab rats, and the speed people could dump their gear and head back to trusted suppliers may take them by surprise. At the moment they are still relying on fringe users who can still use their old gear when it simply must work...
I've seen quite the opposite stream of people moving to Sony and fleeing the likes of Canon and a lesser extent Nikon. The A9 is just another nail along with the GM lenses a complete kit for portraits, weddings, events and just about everything other than sports and the wildlife crowd which combined make up a very small portion of the photo market.
I think Sony approached it right. Hit the major photo market and leave the fringe to later...if ever.
A fellow photographer that shoots mostly weddings says the silent shutter and eye tracking are game changers for his work. I know there are many times I'd love a totally silent shutter. There was a discussion on another forum where the A9 will allow for a whole new range of golf photos as you can shoot during the swing rather than waiting until the ball is hit before taking the photo.
The future is interesting and I really don't see the DSLR staying around for very long. What advantage does a DSLR bring to the table...I can't think of any, so can't Cannot judging by their 6D2 release.
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I've seen quite the opposite stream of people moving to Sony and fleeing the likes of Canon and a lesser extent Nikon. The A9 is just another nail along with the GM lenses a complete kit for portraits, weddings, events and just about everything other than sports and the wildlife crowd which combined make up a very small portion of the photo market.
I think Sony approached it right. Hit the major photo market and leave the fringe to later...if ever.
A fellow photographer that shoots mostly weddings says the silent shutter and eye tracking are game changers for his work. I know there are many times I'd love a totally silent shutter. There was a discussion on another forum where the A9 will allow for a whole new range of golf photos as you can shoot during the swing rather than waiting until the ball is hit before taking the photo.
The future is interesting and I really don't see the DSLR staying around for very long. What advantage does a DSLR bring to the table...I can't think of any, so can't Cannot judging by their 6D2 release.
That all makes sense as far as the new A9. It will be interesting to see if any of these new users get an issue with banding and how they react if they start losing important shots...
As far as OVFs go, it may still be preferred by some, we will have to see how this all plays out.. Battery life and zero latency viewing are key advantages.. There is obviously a shutter lag while the mirror lifts for a shot but that is minimal and becomes a natural user timing skill...
OVFs also allow some heat to escape that comes in though the lens. No where to go in a mirrorless...
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That all makes sense as far as the new A9. It will be interesting to see if any of these new users get an issue with banding and how they react if they start losing important shots...
As far as OVFs go, it may still be preferred by some, we will have to see how this all plays out.. Battery life and zero latency viewing are key advantages.. There is obviously a shutter lag while the mirror lifts for a shot but that is minimal and becomes a natural user timing skill...
OVFs also allow some heat to escape that comes in though the lens. No where to go in a mirrorless...
I've used OVF for 40 years and don't miss them one bit. There is so much more information in an EVF including being able to how the final image will look before you take the photo...something you have to quickly chimp at with an OVF. The new EVF have basically zero blackout...much less than a mirror flapping away. Precision focusing with an EVF is really sweet as you can zoom in with a click of a button and fine tune your focus. I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.
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I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.
I agree that manual focusing with DSLR can be a challenge, especially with AF lenses. Manual focus lenses such as the Otus is easier but you need excellent vision and static subjects.
As far as AF goes, I believe you have never used a D5/D500. The rate of success at f1.4 on the eye is high even on moving subjects, especially with the latest lenses. Their tremendous level of sharpness wide open must help the AF for sure.,
Not trying to convince you, just sharing my modest experience.
Have EVF intrinsic technological advantages over OVFs? Most certainly. Does that result in the best EVF based camera to be better at focusing than the best OVF cameras? Not yet I believe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've used OVF for 40 years and don't miss them one bit. There is so much more information in an EVF including being able to how the final image will look before you take the photo...something you have to quickly chimp at with an OVF. The new EVF have basically zero blackout...much less than a mirror flapping away. Precision focusing with an EVF is really sweet as you can zoom in with a click of a button and fine tune your focus. I found I had to always use the rear LCD on a DSLR to get precise focus, trying to manually focus using a OVF is a exercise in frustration and using AF with fast lens is just not accurate enough to nail the eye with any reliability.
For fast action sports photography, the Optical Viewfinder will always be king due to zero lag. Canon have said those Customers have insisted they keep it.
The early EVFs were so bad it was a night and day difference. They have improved but every time they hike the EVF pixel count they will need a faster sensor read out and process chain to keep those EVFs near useful for that application. The tiny shutter lag in an OVF is easy to compensate for as the lag free image means the photographer will know where the subject will be. With EVF you looking at where the subject was and that lag is more significant... The high FPS possible with the newest lenses on the A9, will mitigate a bit if the spray and pray style is used in the hope at least one frame will get the shot...
Having said that, and ignoring things like SONY star eating RAW, and the suggestion they are precooking their RAW files to add sharpness, and the issues being discovered with the A9, the A9 will still work for some...
If a sports photographer sold all their old gear for an A9 and found they were shooting at an event where the lighting was going to cause banding, they would be forced back to shutter and the 5fps limit. Not what they spent all that money for...
For a the golf example, the risk is probably far less as any video LEDs that may be present at such an event are likely to be more photo friendly IE not pulse the way the signage LEDs must be pulsing to cause the issue. But most of all for the shots where silence is needed, there is no alternative unless you blimp house a normal camera. The Golf use case is more assured...
The A9 usage has narrowed quiet a bit but for some that will be OK.
This site has more photographers that shoot more static shots, so EVFs have other advantages for them.
The great thing about the DSLRs is you have the best of both worlds. You can use the screen in some shots if needed...
Horses for courses, it is good to have choices...
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For fast action sports photography, the Optical Viewfinder will always be king due to zero lag. Canon have said those Customers have insisted they keep it.
...
The tiny shutter lag in an OVF is easy to compensate for as the lag free image means the photographer will know where the subject will be. With EVF you looking at where the subject was and that lag is more significant
That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.
As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.
For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier
Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.
P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!
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That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.
As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.
For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier
Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.
P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!
What I find is a lot of people picked up a consumer mirrorless camera a few years ago which had a mediocre EVF and make all their statements based on that experience rather than the state of the art EVF we have today. EFV are advancing very rapidly and one needs to always look at the latest generations...whereas the OVF has matured and actually have gone backwards from the film days is many ways...used to love my big beautiful Olympus viewfinders that have not been matched by any DSLR OVF for clarity and brightness.
You are right, viewfinder lag in the latest EVF is not an issue as it rivals and quite often beats OVF.
The other thing to note is the biggest lag in capturing peak action is not in any camera...it's the delay from the brain to your finger which is in the area of 200ms.
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That comparison made sense till recently, but the best modern EFVs have a lag far less than the mirror-up lag. I have seen under 10ms EVF lag for some cameras, while the lowest mirror-up lag is about 40ms. Live view wih all-mechanical shutter also has a lag to close the first curtain, but I estimate that at only about 4ms—the maximum time that the curtains take to cross the frame if flash sync speed is 1/250 s.
As to anticipating, I see no difference with either source of lag: either way, you just have to release the shutter 10ms or 14ms or 40ms or whatever before you expect the right scene to appear in the VF.
For AF prediction, a low-lag EVF probably has an advantage: AF can be done till the first curtain closes, at about T-4ms, wheras an SLR has to stop AFbefore the mirror lifts, about T-40ms or earlier
Istill see some advantages for OVFs for some users and use cases, but lag has neen licked.
P. S. Do we need a sticky topic for OVF vs EVF discussions?!
The 1DX2 has a Shutter Lag of 36ms in fast mode... ;)
EVF lag just adds to the delay in framing and shooting which would be more of an issue with longer lenses and say birds in flight as an example...
10ms is impressive but is also visually noticeable...
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Interesting test on banding from different light sources. When the light source is a problem it also affects the A9 on mechanical shutter. He also mentions issues with strong red light on the sensor:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0qr0sF2o-gc
5 minutes of video usage in plain weather and the A9 overheated:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FP6dP0s-1og
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The 1DX2 has a Shutter Lag of 36ms in fast mode... ;)
EVF lag just adds to the delay in framing and shooting which would be more of an issue with longer lenses and say birds in flight as an example...
10ms is impressive but is also visually noticeable...
In my books 10ms is better than 36ms.
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In my books 10ms is better than 36ms.
Zero lag plus human reaction time with 36ms factored in...
10ms lag plus human reaction with ?ms factored in for shutter lag
? = the rated lag for the mirrorless camera
;)
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Zero lag plus human reaction time with 36ms factored in...
10ms lag plus human reaction with ?ms factored in for shutter lag
? = the rated lag for the mirrorless camera
;)
Lots of theory...have you tried the EFV in the A9?
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Lots of theory...have you tried the EFV in the A9?
The point of the thread is to get an understanding of the A9. Your input is useful as is others
The technology will improve and the tech will trickle down to affordable products
Canon already have a global shutter in their cinema product. The banding is less likely in that. They are mirrorless but use cooling fans...
Given the A9 price and issues, I will not try one, but definitely tech of the future to look forward to...
I suspect SONY have implemented multiple e shutters in the sensor to reduce the scan time to multiple columns starting at the same time but still slow enough to pick up banding. I am sure they will develop global shutter when that can be done with good DR etc
Still very interesting to see who can use this as is and how those that can't react if they bought one...
:)
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The 1DX2 has a Shutter Lag of 36ms in fast mode... ;)
Thanks: that 36ms is the figure that I was vaguely remembering as "about 40ms".
Aside: what is "fast mode"? Modified AF operation?
EVF lag just adds to the delay in framing and shooting which would be more of an issue with longer lenses and say birds in flight as an example...
10ms is impressive but is also visually noticeable...
You seem to think that the EVF lag has a different and worse effect than lag after pressing the shutter release, but I do not understand why. Let me lay out an example where the total lag is the same 36ms either way:
EVF camera: EVF lag 10ms, and then another 26ms lag between pressing the shutter release and the photo bing taken (for AF and first curtain closing).
SLR/OVF camera: No VF lag, 36ms between pressing the shutter release and the photo being taken (for AF and then raising the mirror).
Either way, if you press the shutter release at the moment when the image you want is seen in the VF, the image you get will be 36ms too late, so either way, the ideal solution is to anticipate, pressing the shutter release when the image you see in the VF is 36ms before the image you want. What matters most is that the lag is consistent, and that the action photographer gets used to dealing with the lag on the camera used.
One difference though: the OVF camera has to finalize AF before mirror-lifting starts, whereas the EVF camera only has to do it before the first curtain closing starts, and curtain closing time at about 5ms, far less than mirror-lifting time. So predictive AF has an easier job with good EVF camera, predicting a far shorter time into the future.
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In fact it is only a matter of time until EVF have zero time lag.
All it will take is the sensor's ability to stream to a buffer at full resolution all the time. It will then be possible to capture the image that was live at the exact moment when the shutter was pressed.
Cheers,
Bernard
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EVF camera: EVF lag 10ms, and then another 26ms lag between pressing the shutter release and the photo bing taken (for AF and first curtain closing)....
One difference though: the OVF camera has to finalize AF before mirror-lifting starts, whereas the EVF camera only has to do it before the first curtain closing starts, and curtain closing time at about 5ms, far less than mirror-lifting time. So predictive AF has an easier job with good EVF camera, predicting a far shorter time into the future.
you forgot about EFCS that is (can be) used in most cases = https://www.mhohner.de/newsitem2/efcs ... means avoiding first mechanical curtain for dSLMs with through EVF shooting ... not to mention no sensor shocks from either mirror or curtain
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you forgot about EFCS that is (can be) used in most cases = https://www.mhohner.de/newsitem2/efcs ... means avoiding first mechanical curtain for dSLMs with through EVF shooting ... not to mention no sensor shocks from either mirror or curtain
Indeed, I deliberately ignored EFCS, since there seem to be some situations where its results are (for now) inferior, and I wanted to make the most conservative and thus most defensible argument for the lag reduction advantages of going mirrorless. (Which Leica users have been telling us about for years!)
Likewise for my decision to ignore the "high res video buffering" tactic that Bernard mentioned, and that can even provide a little bit of "negative lag" for you press the shutter release too late: store the last half second of frames, for example. I believe that some compact cameras have done this, with about 60FPS buffering. However, I would expect this to be done with compression, so maybe with direct output of HEIF stills selected from an intra-frame compressed HEVC stream stored to a single file, given that H.265/HEVC/HEIF is a better candidate for that sort of merged still-video operation that the current mix of H.264/AVC, JPEG etc.
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Thanks: that 36ms is the figure that I was vaguely remembering as "about 40ms".
Aside: what is "fast mode"? Modified AF operation?
No impact. Just snappier:
"Shutter release time lag C.Fn7
Normally, stabilization control is performed to stabilize the shutter-
release time lag. By setting [Shortened], this stabilization control can
be disabled to make the shutter-release time lag shorter.
: Standard
: Shortened
The shutter-release time lag is normally approx. 0.055 sec. at the
shortest. By shortening it, it can be as short as approx. 0.036 sec.
The shutter-release time lag will vary depending on the shooting conditions,
lens type, aperture, etc."
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...You seem to think that the EVF lag has a different and worse effect than lag after pressing the shutter release, but I do not understand why. Let me lay out an example where the total lag is the same 36ms either way:
EVF camera: EVF lag 10ms, and then another 26ms lag between pressing the shutter release and the photo bing taken (for AF and first curtain closing).
SLR/OVF camera: No VF lag, 36ms between pressing the shutter release and the photo being taken (for AF and then raising the mirror).
Either way, if you press the shutter release at the moment when the image you want is seen in the VF, the image you get will be 36ms too late, so either way, the ideal solution is to anticipate, pressing the shutter release when the image you see in the VF is 36ms before the image you want. What matters most is that the lag is consistent, and that the action photographer gets used to dealing with the lag on the camera used.
One difference though: the OVF camera has to finalize AF before mirror-lifting starts, whereas the EVF camera only has to do it before the first curtain closing starts, and curtain closing time at about 5ms, far less than mirror-lifting time. So predictive AF has an easier job with good EVF camera, predicting a far shorter time into the future.
I do not want to convince you. It either takes a leap of faith or willingness to understand...
People who never shoot subjects that move quickly and erratically with longer lenses will not understand the importance of zero lag viewfinders...
In your case if you enjoy EVFs then you will be a happy camper... :D
I think the options and developments are great but equally understand the OVFs still have a place in photography...
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I think the options and developments are great but equally understand the OVFs still have a place in photography...
Yep, right next to Tri-x film and the cube flash in the photography history museum. ;)
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I do not want to convince you. It either takes a leap of faith or willingness to understand...
People who never shoot subjects that move quickly and erratically with longer lenses will not understand the importance of zero lag viewfinders...
I am willing to understand if someone offers valid arguments and evidence, but so far all you offer is the repeated claim that viewfinder lag matters more than shutter lag, even if the later is several times longer. I instead have attempted to explain why—as fas as I can tell—it is the total lag that counts, by which I mean how late the image will be taken if you press the shutter release at the moment that the scene you want is seen in the viewfinder. VF lag can be corrected for by anticipation in exactly the same way as release lag can be, so long as the photographer can learn to adjust for the amount of lag, which requires the lag time to be fairly consistent.
Thanks for the details on "fast mode":
Normally, stabilization control is performed to stabilize the shutter-release time lag. By setting [Shortened], this stabilization control can be disabled to make the shutter-release time lag shorter.
The shutter-release time lag is normally approx. 0.055 sec. at the shortest. By shortening it, it can be as short as approx. 0.036 sec. The shutter-release time lag will vary depending on the shooting conditions, lens type, aperture, etc.
If i am reading this right, the normal mode is stabilized to have a fairly reliable lag of 55ms, perhaps to help photographers who anticipate a fast changing scene by learning to hit the shutter release 55ms before the the desired scene will arrive in the VF, as I discuss above. On the other hand fast mode is faster but variable "as short as approx. 0.036 sec. The shutter-release time lag will vary depending on the shooting conditions, lens type, aperture, etc.". This sound more suitable for shooting without "lag anticipation", as with less predictable motion where the best one can do is hit the shutter release when the scene looks right in the VF. (And for duffers like me who do no have the skill to anticipate motion.)
I think the options and developments are great but equally understand the OVFs still have a place in photography...
I agree—SLRs with OVFs still have some advantages, but no longer the former EVF problem of greater total lag. (Rangefinders still win for overall lag!)
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So just looking at the A9 again:
"When the auto or electronic shutter mode is selected the viewfinder frame rate is fixed at 60 fps"
That is 1000/60 = 16.6 Milliseconds refresh, and if we are generous, we will assume that there is no frame padding...
Also:
"When [Shoot. Start Disp.] is set to [On], blackout occurs only when the first image is shot (page 48)."
And:
"Notes on shooting with an external
flash
When shooting with an external flash,
light and dark stripes may appear on
the image if the shutter speed is set
to faster than 1/4000 seconds."
This relates to SONY developing some uncorrected lenses and then using a lens profile to correct the final image. They are not alone but the latest wide angle zoom has more distortion than the competition. Confirms the viewfinder is the uncorrected image so not 100%:
"Notes on shooting with the
viewfinder
• The image may be slightly distorted
near the corners of the viewfinder.
This is not a malfunction. When you
want to see the full composition
with all its details, you can also use
the monitor.
• If you pan the camera while looking
into the viewfinder or move your
eyes around, the image in the
viewfinder may be distorted or the
color of the image may change.
This is a characteristic of the
lens or display device and is not
a malfunction. When you shoot
an image, we recommend that
you look at the center area of the
viewfinder."
More on the EVF:
"When shooting with the viewfinder,
you may experience symptoms
such as eyestrain, fatigue,
travel sickness, or nausea. We
recommend that you take a break
at regular intervals when you are
shooting with the viewfinder.
In case you may feel
uncomfortable, refrain from using
the viewfinder until your condition
recovers, and consult your doctor
as necessary.
Notes on continuous shooting
During continuous shooting, the
monitor or viewfinder may flash
between the shooting screen and a
black screen. If you keep watching
the screen in this situation, you may
experience uncomfortable symptoms
such as feeling of unwellness. If you
experience uncomfortable symptoms,
stop using the camera, and consult
your doctor as necessary."
4K shooting, just out of interest:
"Notes on recording for long
periods of time or recording 4K
movies
• Depending on the camera and
battery temperature, you may be
unable to record movies or the
power may turn off automatically
to protect the camera. A message
will be displayed on the screen
before the power turns off or you
can no longer record movies. In
this case, leave the power off and
wait until the camera and battery
temperature goes down. If you turn
on the power without letting the
camera and battery cool enough,
the power may turn off again
or you may be unable to record
movies.
• Under high ambient temperatures,
the temperature of the camera rises
quickly.
• When the temperature of the
camera rises, the image quality may
deteriorate. It is recommended that
you wait until the temperature of
the camera drops before continuing
to shoot.
• The surface of the camera may get
warm. This is not a malfunction.
• If the same part of your skin
touches the camera for a long
period of time while using the
camera, even if the camera does
not feel hot to you, it may cause
symptoms of a low-temperature
burn such as redness or blistering.
Pay special attention in the following
situations and use a tripod, etc.
– When using the camera in a high-
temperature environment
– When someone with poor
circulation or impaired skin
sensation uses the camera
– When using the camera with
the [Auto Pwr OFF Temp.] set to
[High].
• Especially during 4K movie
shooting, the recording time may
be shorter under low temperature
conditions. Warm up the battery
pack or replace it with a new
battery."
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If i am reading this right, the normal mode is stabilized to have a fairly reliable lag of 55ms, perhaps to help photographers who anticipate a fast changing scene by learning to hit the shutter release 55ms before the the desired scene will arrive in the VF, as I discuss above. On the other hand fast mode is faster but variable "as short as approx. 0.036 sec. The shutter-release time lag will vary depending on the shooting conditions, lens type, aperture, etc.". This sound more suitable for shooting without "lag anticipation", as with less predictable motion where the best one can do is hit the shutter release when the scene looks right in the VF. (And for duffers like me who do no have the skill to anticipate motion.)
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Correct, but the difference is tiny in most cases of the first frame... Hence my comments on the other benefits of zero lag...
As I mentioned before if you have a camera that can do spray and pray style, then this is all less relevant...
:D
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So just looking at the A9 again:
"When the auto or electronic shutter mode is selected the viewfinder frame rate is fixed at 60 fps"
That is 1000/60 = 16.6 Milliseconds refresh, and if we are generous, we will assume that there is no frame padding...
I am not primarily interested in the specs of the A9 itself, since my original comment was to dispute the broad claim that EVF lag will always put EVF cameras at a disadvantage to SLRs.
But to set the record straight:
- that 60fps is with EFC, which in turn has essentially no shutter release lag, for a total lag of about that 16.6ms.
- with mechanical shutter, the EVF can operate at 120fps for a lag of maybe 8.3ms—then adding another 5ms or so to close the first curtain gives a total of about 13.3ms.
These two lags can then be compared to the minimum of 36ms for the fastest SLR shutter release that we know about.
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I am not primarily interested in the specs of the A9 itself, since my original comment was to dispute the broad claim that EVF lag will always put EVF cameras at a disadvantage to SLRs.
But to set the record straight:
- that 60fps is with EFC, which in turn has essentially no shutter release lag, for a total lag of about that 16.6ms.
- with mechanical shutter, the EVF can operate at 120fps for a lag of maybe 8.3ms—then adding another 5ms or so to close the first curtain gives a total of about 13.3ms.
These two lags can then be compared to the minimum of 36ms for the fastest SLR shutter release that we know about.
The processing strain will affect the static specs as they hint here after the shooting starts:
"Notes on continuous shooting
During continuous shooting, the
monitor or viewfinder may flash
between the shooting screen and a
black screen. If you keep watching
the screen in this situation, you may
experience uncomfortable symptoms
such as feeling of unwellness. If you
experience uncomfortable symptoms,
stop using the camera, and consult
your doctor as necessary."
So will panning as the viewfinder needs to refresh lots of data... I am sure it is very good but they have been a bit coy. It takes time to read all these little facts and then finally paint a picture of what this camera is. I suspect it will be flashing the odd unchanged or blank frame as you move it round or hold the shutter down
It is great alternative for some but it is clear it does not replace an optical viewfinder for others...
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Bernard, now that we are back on the original topic of the Sony A9, I agree with you: it is not the EVF camera that will dethrone the best SLRs and lenses from Canon and Nikon for high-level action photography.
Let's see how it goes after a few more design iterations from Sony, Olympus, Panasonic and Fujifilm.
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- with mechanical shutter, the EVF can operate at 120fps for a lag of maybe 8.3ms—then adding another 5ms or so to close the first curtain gives a total of about 13.3ms.
These two lags can then be compared to the minimum of 36ms for the fastest SLR shutter release that we know about.
Sounds like the mechanical shutter is not that good in reality
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gNaVG7j_g2Y
Seems to have more lag regardless of the refresh, so as I suggested you need to consider how it performs with the rest of the camera using up processing time and the ability to sync all actions at high speed..
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... as I suggested you need to consider how it performs with the rest of the camera using up processing time and the ability to sync all actions at high speed..
And as I said, I am not defending the Sony A9 in particular; I only entered this discussion to dispute your claim that a bit of EVF lag is somehow worse than a even a substantially larger amount of shutter-release lag, so that EVF cameras will always be at a disadvantage.
BTW, you seem to be putting a lot of effort into "oppo research" on a camera that you are not interested in buying or using!
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And as I said, I am not defending the Sony A9 in particular; I only entered this discussion to dispute your claim that a bit of EVF lag is somehow worse than a even a substantially larger amount of shutter-release lag, so that EVF cameras will always be at a disadvantage.
BTW, you seem to be putting a lot of effort into "oppo research" on a camera that you are not interested in buying or using!
This thread is to discuss the new SONY A9. The good, the bad and the ugly...
You may wish to post a new thread so you can discuss the merits of EVF's if you wish...
Forgive me if I do not join such a thread to debate as the example I just posted proves reality is often different to assumption...
I find the technology fascinating but SONY have some issues with this camera, no amount of EVF love can fix...
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This thread is to discuss the new SONY A9. The good, the bad and the ugly...
You may wish to post a new thread so you can discuss the merits of EVF's if you wish...
It was in this thread that you made your claim about the permanent disadvantage of EVFs; that is why I am replying on that sub-topic here. But I think we have completed the exchange of information and opinions on that, so I will sign off here. (I do like the idea of a separate thread for EVF vs OVF debates though!)