Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Tarkowsky on April 12, 2017, 04:12:07 pm
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I've been playing with the new H6D-100c for quite a while and what's really struck me is the bad quality of its screen.
I am not talking about the touch screen menu which is great but the ability of showing images with some degree of color accuracy.
In that respect The H6D-100c display is the worst I ever tested.
All previews images have a strong yellow-green cast and the contrast is much too high hence highlights and shadows are easily clipped whereas other camera LCD screens can show very subtle tonal values.
Attached you can see the same scene on a H6D-100c display next to a Nikon D800 display.
One can see not only the Hassy terrible yellow-green cast on the grass and on the gray floor whereas the Nikon has a more neutral look but also the extreme contrast applied to the Hasselblad previews .The trunk is almost black and the flower yellow washed out not to speak of the paving nuts almost clipped.
The scene WB was K5700 (measured with an i1Pro) and internal WB camera was set 5700K for both camera.
With that internal camera setting both raw files were showing the same value for the third gray patch in the ColorChecker (R=G=B=121).
Jpegs images obtained through raw converter were similar and very neutral on a PC display.
Therefore the big difference in color and contrast on the display previews are due to internal display calibration which is very good on the Nikon and totally off on the H6D-100c.
Hasselblad display is almost useless for judging the quality of a picture. One has only to rely on histogram.
It's like going back to the analog era when people had to wait to get their films developed to be able to see the real photo.
Nowadays with Hasselblad new cameras I have to wait to look at them on a pc to see the real photo because the previews is useless.
I bought the new H6D-100c but when it comes to the display camera I really miss my old H4D-60.
Isn't it weird?
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Have you asked Hassy whether they can solve this issue? It sounds like either the hardware is bad or someone forgot to calibrate the screen before shipping.
Edmund
I've been playing with the new H6D-100c for quite a while and what's really struck me is the bad quality of its screen.
I am not talking about the touch screen menu which is great but the ability of showing images with some degree of color accuracy.
In that respect The H6D-100c display is the worst I ever tested.
All previews images have a strong yellow-green cast and the contrast is much too high hence highlights and shadows are easily clipped whereas other camera LCD screens can show very subtle tonal values.
Attached you can see the same scene on a H6D-100c display next to a Nikon D800 display.
One can see not only the Hassy terrible yellow-green cast on the grass and on the gray floor whereas the Nikon has a more neutral look but also the extreme contrast applied to the Hasselblad previews .The trunk is almost black and the flower yellow washed out not to speak of the paving nuts almost clipped.
The scene WB was K5700 (measured with an i1Pro) and internal WB camera was set 5700K for both camera.
With that internal camera setting both raw files were showing the same value for the third gray patch in the ColorChecker (R=G=B=121).
Jpegs images obtained through raw converter were similar and very neutral on a PC display.
Therefore the big difference in color and contrast on the display previews are due to internal display calibration which is very good on the Nikon and totally off on the H6D-100c.
Hasselblad display is almost useless for judging the quality of a picture. One has only to rely on histogram.
It's like going back to the analog era when people had to wait to get their films developed to be able to see the real photo.
Nowadays with Hasselblad new cameras I have to wait to look at them on a pc to see the real photo because the previews is useless.
I bought the new H6D-100c but when it comes to the display camera I really miss my old H4D-60.
Isn't it weird?
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I wrote to Hasselblad and still waiting for a response.
I checked another H6D-100c and even that camera showed the same off-calibration so I guess it is a general issue for the H6D-100c screen.
I will try to measure the white colorimetric coordinates of the screen and see what kind of CCT Hasselblad has set the display.
All the cameras I have tested have set a CCT = 6500K included my old H4D-60
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Apologies, but I am at a loss why anyone would consider the color accuracy of a screen relevant... unless you shoot jpgs. This being said my screen seems reasonnably accurate, I would have yours checked by Hasselblad.
But to the point, if you shoot raw, what matters in a screen is the ability to assess focus acuracy and exposure, the rest is best done later or through a thethering sesssion. This is especially true for the Hasselblad since WB is next to impossible to adjust in the field (no AWB, not grey card neutralization).
I have several complains about the H6D-100c, some to be addressed very soon by a long overdue firnware upgrade, but its screen is IMHO not a problem at all.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Apologies, but I am at a loss why anyone would consider the color accuracy of a screen relevant... unless you shoot jpgs. This being said my screen seems reasonnably accurate, I would have yours checked by Hasselblad.
But to the point, if you shoot raw, what matters in a screen is the ability to assess focus acuracy and exposure, the rest is best done later or through a thethering sesssion. This is especially true for the Hasselblad since WB is next to impossible to adjust in the field (no AWB, not grey card neutralization).
I have several complains about the H6D-100c, some to be addressed very soon by a long overdue firnware upgrade, but its screen is IMHO not a problem at all.
Cheers,
Bernard
So why bother to make color display if it was only a matter of checking focus and exposure?
You can perfectly do that on BW screen.
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So why bother to make color display if it was only a matter of checking focus and exposure?
You can perfectly do that on BW screen.
I'm guessing most people with Hasselblads shoot tethered anyway
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I'm guessing most people with Hasselblads shoot tethered anyway
Well that's not a good excuse to build bad display for a $32,995.00 camera.
I am a landscape photographer and I don't shoot tethered cause the battery goes down so quickly when tethering and plus I don't want to carry extra weight for another external screen when a good one should be enough.
C'mon for that price we should ask more than a bad Chinese LCD screen.
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So why bother to make color display if it was only a matter of checking focus and exposure?
You can perfectly do that on BW screen.
As mentioned, I would start by having my screen checked prior to making it a generic H6D-100c issue.
And no, generally speaking a B&W screen wouldn't do because it would remove any possibility to factor in scene colors when doing selects in camera. However color accuracy is of low relevance.
Now, with the current WB capabilities of the canera, even that is questionable IMHO. So today a B&W screen would be fine with me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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As mentioned, I would start by having my screen checked prior to making it a generic H6D-100c issue.
And no, generally speaking a B&W screen wouldn't do because it would remove any possibility to factor in scene colors when doing selects in camera. However color accuracy is of low relevance.
Now, with the current WB capabilities of the canera, even that is questionable IMHO. So today a B&W screen would be fine with me.
Cheers,
Bernard
As I mentioned before I checked two H6D-100c and both cameras had the same issues related not only to color accuracy but also on the tonal compression ( S gamma curve )applied on the previews.
Mind you that all the new Hasselblad cameras can also shoot videos and to have a decent preview on the LCD screen might help when setting the WB in camera (you don't need to shoot everything in raw video format).
If you have a totally off calibrated screen is almost impossible to choose the right WB value.
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If you have a totally off calibrated screen is almost impossible to choose the right WB value.
The correct way to set WB is to position one/several neutral grey cards in the scene and to neutralize it/them in post.
Frankly, I come from many years with various Nikon bodies including the D5, which probably has the best AWB ever (truly brilliant in my book), and the WB capabilities of the H6D-100c are appalling in comparison... but I don't think the screen plays any role at all.
Anyway, if the screen is essential to you and you are certain it is not a sample issue, I would just return the camera. Life is too short to use tools that are not performing as you expect them to.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The correct way to set WB is to position one/several neutral grey cards in the scene and to neutralize it/them in post.
Frankly, I come from many years with various Nikon bodies including the D5, which probably has the best AWB ever (truly brilliant in my book), and the WB capabilities of the H6D-100c are appalling in comparison... but I don't think the screen plays any role at all.
Anyway, if the screen is essential to you and you are certain it is not a sample issue, I would just return the camera. Life is too short to use tools that are not performing as you expect them to.
Cheers,
Bernard
Not everybody want to shoot in raw format video.
A lot of people prefer to shoot in H264 format and in that case to set WB you position a neutral gray card and while looking at it via Light View mode you continually change K value till what you see appear gray. When you reach the perfect gray on screen you have set the right WB.
Of course if your screen is totally off calibration even the Light View mode will show a totally inaccurate gray.
For example with the H6D-100c yellow-green cast you'll tend to choose a WB that is always at least 800K-1000K lower than the right value because you'll try to compensate the yellow-green cast making it to appear gray.
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I would personnally pick a GH5 over the H6D-100c any day to shoot serious video.
If I were to shoot video with the H6d anyway, I would shoot raw.
The reality of the MF high end bodies is that they are only superior to the best alternatives costing 10 times less in a narrow enveloppe and only 30% better even in that enveloppe. Video is IMHO not part of this narrow enveloppe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hasselblad display is almost useless for judging the quality of a picture. One has only to rely on histogram. [/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
As to the reference of the Histogram, I have mention this to a Hasselblad tech and consulted several people regarding two main issues with my H6D 100 C [/font][/size]
The histogram does not correctly show the real clipping of the raw image in either R,G or B channels...it's at least 1 1/2 stops lower in many exposures. You can only trust the histogram when the word overexposure high appears.[/font][/size]
Secondly the Green channel is out of control in high DR exposures and in Low Light exposures, as of this point Hasselblad does not see it as a priority to allow a custom option for a non balanced raw histogram. When it was supposided ask to the factory the response was that's the first request they have ever had for it.[/font][/size]
I might be able to get by with AWB but my respect for capturing images with the current H6D 100 and it's current firmware proves high DR and or Low Light images won't balance out in the raw capture. I have resorted to a CC40M filter to solve this.[/font][/size]
My point is if I wanted to shoot tethered to Phocus at all times the correction is available.[/font][/size]
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You mean that exposing to the right with the histogram results in images that are 1.5 stop short of blowing highlights in the raw file?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would personnally pick a GH5 over the H6D-100c any day to shoot serious video.
If I were to shoot video with the H6d anyway, I would shoot raw.
The reality of the MF high end bodies is that they are only superior to the best alternatives costing 10 times less in a narrow enveloppe and only 30% better even in that enveloppe. Video is IMHO not part of this narrow enveloppe.
Cheers,
Bernard
I don't mind if you want to buy another camera to shoot serious video and maybe another external display just to look at the photo previews.
You're missing the point.
I am not asking for perfection but only for a decent display which any other camera can provide.
Is that too much for $32,995.00?
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I measured the white of the two cameras with an X-rite i1Pro and used SpectraShop software to analyze the data.
You can look at attached image which contains all the graphs and colorimetric data.
But to make it short one can say that:
Nikon D800 has a CCT=K6500 and DUV=0.023 CRI Ra=92
Hasselblad H6D-100C has CCT=K5500 and DUV=0.0114 8)(five times greater than Nikon and that creates the yellow-green cast) CRI Ra=67 (the worst value of all cameras I have been measuring so far).
Usually displays are calibrated to a CCT =K6500 (D65) to better match the viewing condition at K5000 (D50) which is the illuminant chosen by the press industry and it's also close to daylight value.
Trying to match the D50 viewing codition with a display calibrated at D50 gives always images that look too yellow
Previous Hasselblad camera (H5D-50) were calibrated with a K6500 white point and had a better CRI than H6D-100c.
So I really don't understand why Hasselblad has changed its approach going on a very bumpy and dangerous road leading to the abyss in term of CRI value.
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Tarkowsky, I completely agree with your assesment. I have tried out the demo of the h6d-50c, as much as the LCD is bright and good for bright outdoor situation. It's color has a bad yellow-green cast to it as you have said. I don't have the fancy gear to measure but to my eye it's really bad. Compared to my h4d-50 screen my h4d screen are much more accurate in color. I hope more people would comment on this and have hasselblad rectify this issue
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You mean that exposing to the right with the histogram results in images that are 1.5 stop short of blowing highlights in the raw file?
Cheers,
Bernard
Yep that's the story the green channel shows touching the wall but actually in the raw histogram with raw viewer it's far from touching or climbing the wall
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I measured the white of the two cameras with an X-rite i1Pro and used SpectraShop software to analyze the data.
You can look at attached image which contains all the graphs and colorimetric data.
But to make it short one can say that:
Nikon D800 has a CCT=K6500 and DUV=0.023 CRI Ra=92
Hasselblad H6D-100C has CCT=K5500 and DUV=0.0114 8) (five times greater than Nikon and that creates the yellow-green cast) CRI Ra=67 (the worst value of all cameras I have been measuring so far).
Usually displays are calibrated to a CCT =K6500 (D65) to better match the viewing condition at K5000 (D50) which is the illuminant chosen by the press industry and it's also close to daylight value.
Trying to match the D50 viewing codition with a display calibrated at D50 gives always images that look too yellow
Previous Hasselblad camera (H5D-50) were calibrated with a K6500 white point and had a better CRI than H6D-100c.
So I really don't understand why Hasselblad has changed its approach going on a very bumpy and dangerous road leading to the abyss in term of CRI value.
Would it possible to allow the user an option to adjust the screen? Would not the code be provided by the manufacture of the screen?
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Tarkowsky, I completely agree with your assesment. I have tried out the demo of the h6d-50c, as much as the LCD is bright and good for bright outdoor situation. It's color has a bad yellow-green cast to it as you have said. I don't have the fancy gear to measure but to my eye it's really bad. Compared to my h4d-50 screen my h4d screen are much more accurate in color. I hope more people would comment on this and have hasselblad rectify this issue
Today I had the opportunity to test another H6D-100c and two H6D-50c and both had the same terrible yellow-green cast like mine.
Previews were also very high contrasted.
I measured the spectral data and the outcome are extremely consistent with my camera.
I also checked the X1D and to my surprise even its screen had the same defect.
The tech guy at the shop told me that H6D-100c,H6D-50c and X1D have the same screen so I suspect that the yellow-green cast and the extreme contrast applied to previews is indeed a generic issue with most of the new Hasselblad screens.
So far I checked 3 H6D-100c , 2 H6D-100c and 1 X1D and they all had the same defect.
Just my luck? I don't think so.
I would be very happy to see a decently calibrated screen mounted on any new Hasselblad camera.
Attached the X1D spectral data which are consistent with H6D-100c
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I never expect color reproduction to be accurate on such a small screen, but the high contrast is worrying as it makes judging an exposure quite difficult. Reminds me of the screen on my 2005 vintage D200.
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Hasselblad display is almost useless for judging the quality of a picture. One has only to rely on histogram. [/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
As to the reference of the Histogram, I have mention this to a Hasselblad tech and consulted several people regarding two main issues with my H6D 100 C [/font][/size]
The histogram does not correctly show the real clipping of the raw image in either R,G or B channels...it's at least 1 1/2 stops lower in many exposures. You can only trust the histogram when the word overexposure high appears.[/font][/size]
Secondly the Green channel is out of control in high DR exposures and in Low Light exposures, as of this point Hasselblad does not see it as a priority to allow a custom option for a non balanced raw histogram. When it was supposided ask to the factory the response was that's the first request they have ever had for it.[/font][/size]
I might be able to get by with AWB but my respect for capturing images with the current H6D 100 and it's current firmware proves high DR and or Low Light images won't balance out in the raw capture. I have resorted to a CC40M filter to solve this.[/font][/size]
My point is if I wanted to shoot tethered to Phocus at all times the correction is available.[/font][/size]
The camera histogram doesn't show the real untouched R,G,B raw channels as RawDigger can do but it shows the raw channels through the eye of a raw converter (Phocus in this case).
Hasselblad assumes that you will process the raw file with Phocus which will applies some conversions to the original raw file.
So what you see in the camera it's nothing else that the histogram you'll see when Phocus open the raw file.
As you may know when Phocus open a raw file it applies some default conversion to it , conversion which is unique to each raw converter.
Adobe Camera RAW will perform a totally different conversion.
Attached there is a picture that according to RawDigger Histogram has no highlights clipped values but the H6D-100c in camera histogram show that the Blue channel has been clipped.Same clipping happens in Phocus (most of the sky is clipped).
But if one opens the same raw file in ACR there is no clipping at all and the histogram is more similar to RawDigger histogram situation.
Phocus in its conversion must have stretched the highlights to the limit.
So with very high DR image I would give ACR a try and drop Phocus.
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Wow, that's some major blue haze on that sky and mountains.
Seems like the real world had some issues as well that day, just like the LCD. ;)
Or maybe it was just inaccurate White Balance.
Don't get distracted by the blue haze cause what really matters here are the histograms and the highlights clipping applied by Phocus.
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It must be too much to ask. Look at all the screens on the previous medium format up to today. When the P65+ was brand new and the screen came from a 1991 cell phone...what was the excuse? When IQ series came out and the screen was only a fraction better. Leaf gave us a pda screen up until recently. Hassy screens haven't been any better. I think this was a giant step forward. We might have gotten finally up to about 2005 technology. ;D
I don't mind if you want to buy another camera to shoot serious video and maybe another external display just to look at the photo previews.
You're missing the point.
I am not asking for perfection but only for a decent display which any other camera can provide.
Is that too much for $32,995.00?
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We might have gotten finally up to about 2005 technology. ;D
It only gets better from there! :P
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Guys,
I'd be with you if there was nothing else to complain about... I'll give Hasselblad the benefit of the doubt for now and will wait for their soon to be released firmware update. ;)
This being said, I love many things about the H6D-100c, starting by the touch UI that works perfect and is smooth, stable and efficient, the image quality, the wonderful lenses, the ergonomics,... it is a very healthy platform that needs more polishing.
Still, as of the current firmware I am somehow relieved to have to shoot with my D5/D500 today. These cameras still feel like much more refined tools. The difference btwn a mature product and a beta release IMHO. And I am not speaking about the intrinsic technogical differences such as AF where the Nikons are so incredibly superior it isn't even funny. The reality being tat a 20mp D5 often delivers more real world detail than a 100mp MF camera thanks to more accurate focus. But I knew this all along and have accepted this reality.
Overall, it is funny that no more users are commenting out loud, just like nobody is/was complaining in the open about the IQ3's little issues. I guess that many owners of these MF cameras feel like they must protect "their" brand by avoiding spreading negative feedbacks that could hurt sales and the brand's "survival". The relationship with dealers and average age of owners contribute to this of course. ;)
The X1D has IMHO removed this need for Hasselblad. They have the potential now to have the bandwidth to release polished products. I am fully aligned with the need and value to tell things the way they are.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sorry Bernard, but I cannot find many faults with my IQ3100 and XF / Arca combination.
It has well over 35k of images in a year now and the quality I get from it is just amazing. It blows anything else out of the water by a big margin. I really have difficulty with the GFX (and X1D, while testing it) that they just don't stand up.
However, I am still owning my IQ180 as well, which still produces great images.
The only thing I might say about the XF system is that one really has to actually work with it to learn how to handle it and even more importantly carefully do stuff like lens focus calibration.
So I find it really sad that with the Hassi system you "prefer" to use the Nikon system. For me I'm happy it's the other way around. Even when hiking or on longer trips I nearly always take the IQ back as I really enjoy using it and the results way more than any camera before that.
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Sorry Bernard, but I cannot find many faults with my IQ3100 and XF / Arca combination.
It has well over 35k of images in a year now and the quality I get from it is just amazing. It blows anything else out of the water by a big margin. I really have difficulty with the GFX (and X1D, while testing it) that they just don't stand up.
However, I am still owning my IQ180 as well, which still produces great images.
The only thing I might say about the XF system is that one really has to actually work with it to learn how to handle it and even more importantly carefully do stuff like lens focus calibration.
So I find it really sad that with the Hassi system you "prefer" to use the Nikon system. For me I'm happy it's the other way around. Even when hiking or on longer trips I nearly always take the IQ back as I really enjoy using it and the results way more than any camera before that.
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Sounds like Phase is a way better system after all...It's expensive for a reason. haha.
Just out of curiosity, who made the screen for the latest Hasselblad?
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So I find it really sad that with the Hassi system you "prefer" to use the Nikon system. For me I'm happy it's the other way around. Even when hiking or on longer trips I nearly always take the IQ back as I really enjoy using it and the results way more than any camera before that.
Great to read that you like you IQ back Christopher. One example of the little issues I had in mind is the recent report that it takes a significant time to zoom to 100% in live view and that switching to live takes time also. I would personally find that very irritating, but we all have different perceptions I guess. I was personnally also very un-impressed by the mirror slap of the XF, although this may not have any impact on image quality, it does for sure feel un-refined to me.
As I said, there is a lot to like about the H6D-100c as well (all the important things are lovely, starting from the image quality and the lenses), but there are still many annoying little things that IMHO should be improved. But then again, not much comes close to a D5 from that standpoint, it is significantly ahead of anything else Nikon has done in the past from a user experience standpoint.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard
I find your comments a little puzzling and perhaps biased. I’m a long-time user of Nikon and still use my D810 – mostly as a backup to my XF100. I certainly agree Nikon is very easy to use given my years of experience with it. My experience with the XF100 has been exceptional and the support I get from my dealer is also exceptional. Not sure why you think I would hesitate to criticize either the XF100 or my dealer and I certainly have no need to protect the brand.
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Today I had the opportunity to compare Hasselblad H6D-100c and Phase one XF 100 screen.
I was not impressed by the XF screen (maybe I was expecting too much) but it outperformed the Hassy's in term of neutral color.
XF screen has a slight pinkish cast which is more pleasing than the terrible Hassy strong yellow-green cast.
I didn't measure it but it seems that Hasselblad screen is a bit bigger than XF.
Here down a photo comparing the screens color cast.
As usual I measured the scene color temperature with an i1Pro and set the internal camera WB accordingly so any color inaccuracy is due to screen calibration.
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I didn't measure it but it seems that Hasselblad screen is a bit bigger than XF.
The IQ3 screen is slightly larger (16:9) but the H6D one is taller (4:3). Surface area is probably very close, although you can view images full screen without black borders nor cropping on the H6D while you can't on the IQ3. I checked with overlays in Photoshop, so it's not extremely accurate (the XF seems to be slightly farther from the camera, which can make it look smaller).
The color is certainly different, but so is contrast. The H6D on the grayscale goes very quickly from white to black, while on the IQ3 you can see more shades of gray.
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Although you can view images full screen without black borders nor cropping on the H6D while you can't on the IQ3.
Correct. The IQ was designed with a wide-aspect ratio screen to allow tools/analytics to appear next to an uncropped image. I am not aware of any other camera that makes this design choice, and while I'm highly biased, I think this is absolutely brilliant.
For me the primary purpose of the back screen of any modern pro digital camera is to provide fast access to analyze the technical merits of the image. A few inch screen is not suitable to analyze the artistic/content merits of the image beyond the most cursory level. If you want a large image to review for artistic merit there is wifi, usb, firewire, and HDMI to access larger screens from a small iPhone up to an Eizo to a large-screen TV. The small screen should really focus on the technical.
The wide-aspect screen really helps with that technical analysis. You can have a full histogram, an exposure warning, a clipping warning, and metadata (aperture/shutter/iso) on the screen at the same time alongside with a full uncropped image that isn't reduced in size.
On a related tangent of image review in-camera. It still defies logic to me that Phase One is the only company (that I'm aware of; if I've missed someone please let me know) that provides access to a clipping/overexposure indication based on the modern definition of overexposure (clipped data on more than one color channel in the original raw data; not on some histogram with curves/color-space already applied). It's so easy and so helpful!
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This thread is about a calibration issue of the screen, it's software, and I'm sure Hassy could dealmwith it with a firmware update to allow the user to adjust screen wb, and even input a profile ...
It's just a matter of what's at the top of their bug list. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Edmund
Correct. The IQ was designed with a wide-aspect ratio screen to allow tools/analytics to appear next to an uncropped image. I am not aware of any other camera that makes this design choice, and while I'm highly biased, I think this is absolutely brilliant.
For me the primary purpose of the back screen of any modern pro digital camera is to provide fast access to analyze the technical merits of the image. A few inch screen is not suitable to analyze the artistic/content merits of the image beyond the most cursory level. If you want a large image to review for artistic merit there is wifi, usb, firewire, and HDMI to access larger screens from a small iPhone up to an Eizo to a large-screen TV. The small screen should really focus on the technical.
The wide-aspect screen really helps with that technical analysis. You can have a full histogram, an exposure warning, a clipping warning, and metadata (aperture/shutter/iso) on the screen at the same time alongside with a full uncropped image that isn't reduced in size.
On a related tangent of image review in-camera. It still defies logic to me that Phase One is the only company (that I'm aware of; if I've missed someone please let me know) that provides access to a clipping/overexposure indication based on the modern definition of overexposure (clipped data on more than one color channel in the original raw data; not on some histogram with curves/color-space already applied). It's so easy and so helpful!
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..........
On a related tangent of image review in-camera. It still defies logic to me that Phase One is the only company (that I'm aware of; if I've missed someone please let me know) that provides access to a clipping/overexposure indication based on the modern definition of overexposure (clipped data on more than one color channel in the original raw data; not on some histogram with curves/color-space already applied). It's so easy and so helpful!
Yes I totally agree with you.
I wish Hasselblad did the same but alas they made another choice.
The histogram is not based on the original virgin raw file but on some already Phocus like processed raw data as I have shown previously.
As for the XF screen I once asked a tech guy at Phase One about the color temperature the screen was calibrated at and he told me that it was set as usual at 6500K.
Well what I measured with my i1Pro tells me that the white point is set around 5500k very similar to Hasselblad.
Duv=-0.0029 is still acceptable though the CRI Ra=71 is quite low comparing to the Nikon D800 excellent 92 but still better than Hasselblad 67.
But as many have pointed out we are not asking for perfect color accuracy but for a decent one which means that what really counts is the Duv value which determine the color cast of the screen and in that regard XF screen passes the test and Hasselblad doesn't.
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Unless Hassy designed in a really inferior backlight/screen it's all software.
there really is no excuse for bad screens these days, since every medium price chinese Android phone has a halfways decent screen and Hassy have privileged access to the suppliers via their mothership DJI.
Edmund
Yes I totally agree with you.
I wish Hasselblad did the same but alas they made another choice.
The histogram is not based on the original virgin raw file but on some already Phocus like processed raw data as I have shown previously.
As for the XF screen I once asked a tech guy at Phase One about the color temperature the screen was calibrated at and he told me that it was set as usual at 6500K.
Well what I measured with my i1Pro tells me that the white point is set around 5500k very similar to Hasselblad.
Duv=-0.0029 is still acceptable though the CRI Ra=71 is quite low comparing to the Nikon D800 excellent 92 but still better than Hasselblad 67.
But as many have pointed out we are not asking for perfect color accuracy but for a decent one which means that what really counts is the Duv value which determine the color cast of the screen and in that regard XF screen pass the test and Hasselblad doesn't.
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I find your comments a little puzzling and perhaps biased. I’m a long-time user of Nikon and still use my D810 – mostly as a backup to my XF100. I certainly agree Nikon is very easy to use given my years of experience with it. My experience with the XF100 has been exceptional and the support I get from my dealer is also exceptional. Not sure why you think I would hesitate to criticize either the XF100 or my dealer and I certainly have no need to protect the brand.
I frankly couldn't care less about the P1 vs Hasselblad debate. I am fully convinced that the IQ3-100 is a great product and was very close to buying one myself not that long ago as a contributor to these pages could confirm. If anything, pricing is the main reason why I didn't. But based on what I know about the IQ3-100 and XF camera, I would personally be complaining about some aspects (examples added above) and am just surprised that nobody else (besides Paul recently) has mentioned these.
So, out of curiosity, are you happy about the time it takes to zoom to 100% in live view on your IQ3? It is a genuine question, we all have different expectations in terms of user experience based on our previous references.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There is no question live view could/should be improved. I would also like to have a higher resolution display. While I'm at it, I would like to see a better AWB as it is vastly inferior to the D810. Another improvement I would like to see is the ability to turn off the dark frame subtraction. It should be an option.
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Bernard, in complete honesty and as I know best, actually both is absolutely fine and fast enough. In the year shooting with it these to points were certainly no aspects I thought twice about. It works great.
One thing that could be faster is playback and write speed to the card. But still nothing that bothered me during my last 35k images or so.
Another thing that would bother me is a great 55lens that is missing in the line up. However, that has little to do with the camera.
I could go on about a few things I dislike and things I would never want to miss again. But it's correct it's not a Phase topic it was about screens, so I Stopp here.
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I too do not have a problem with how quickly the IQ100 zooms into 100%. Seems very fast to me.
I do think Canon still implements the best Liveview. The IQ100 screen lacks something, either sharpness in the rendered image or sharpness of the screen itself. I also wish I could enter a default f-stop like f/11, instead of having to scroll through them from f/4 or whatever every time (technical camera).
I think the size of the screen is fine. The level feature is terribly inaccurate. Constantly recalibating mine to the point I've given up using it.
Dave
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Hi guys,
Thank you for your feedback and pointing out the issue with colour accuracy on the H6D display. This particular display issue is now improved and additional functionality is introduced with today's H6D-50c and H6D-100c firmware update.
Added functionality and main improvements for H6D Compared to v1.12.1:
• Focus peaking in live view
• Histogram in grip display
• Visual Overexposure warning
• Technical camera (Flash Sync and Pinhole)
• Full support for HTS
• Support for Film Magazine HM 16-32
• Video poster frame in Browse mode
• Reduced power consumption in tethered mode
• Service menu: Image sequence counter reset
• Service menu: Factory reset
• About menu: “Usage” shows shutter count for lens
• Improved contrast level in video
• LCD color improvements
• Language updates
You can find more information and the latest firmware file under "DOWNLOADS" at http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-100c
Kind regards,
The Hasselblad team
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• Technical camera (Flash Sync and Pinhole)
So you can now use an H6D-100c on a technical camera?
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Hi guys,
Thank you for your feedback and pointing out the issue with colour accuracy on the H6D display. This particular display issue is now improved and additional functionality is introduced with today's H6D-50c and H6D-100c firmware update.
Added functionality and main improvements for H6D Compared to v1.12.1:
• Focus peaking in live view
• Histogram in grip display
• Visual Overexposure warning
• Technical camera (Flash Sync and Pinhole)
• Full support for HTS
• Support for Film Magazine HM 16-32
• Video poster frame in Browse mode
• Reduced power consumption in tethered mode
• Service menu: Image sequence counter reset
• Service menu: Factory reset
• About menu: “Usage” shows shutter count for lens
• Improved contrast level in video
• LCD color improvements
• Language updates
You can find more information and the latest firmware file under "DOWNLOADS" at http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-100c
Kind regards,
The Hasselblad team
The yellow-green cast is still there cause nothing has changed in term of White color temperature of the screen which is still set at around 5600K and the off Duv value hasn't changed at all as you may see in the attached picture.
Mostly what's been improved is the tonal scale which grew by approximately 3 stops.
Now screen previews look more softer due to the lower general contrast and that makes the yellow-green cast more acceptable so to speak.
I wish they could also improve the Duv value that create the yellow-green cast but I guess that is the natural lcd-screen characteristic and changing it might even mean a lower quality.
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Also the focus peaking only works in normal view not magnified view.
Are you saying the LCD picture is softer meaning the focus isn't as sharp as it was throughout the screen image? I see a bit of improvement in incandescent light.
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Mr. Tarkowsky,
To work around this issue for previews, just take a colorchecker passport with the hue squares, and play with setting wb on the magenta/green hue squares until you neutralize the tint. Later you can make a larger printout of this colour with absolute rendering to create own "viewing wb" card.
I'm astonished our resident heritage colour expert Doug hasn't suggested this, usually he's one of the most helpful members here.
Edmund
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Mr. Tarkowsky,
To work around this issue for previews, just take a colorchecker passport with the hue squares, and play with setting wb on the magenta/green hue squares until you neutralize the tint. Later you can make a larger printout of this colour with absolute rendering to create own "viewing wb" card.
I'm astonished our resident heritage colour expert Doug hasn't suggested this, usually he's one of the most helpful members here.
Edmund
Mr, Edmond,
Although your workaround seems interesting at first sight it still involved a lot of work that is to carry around the colorchecker and use it to find the right WB for the scene compensating for the screen off calibration.
I already came up with a simple idea that works perfectly.
Since the white screen coordinates in Adobe 1998 RGB space R=243 G=255 B=216 in L*ab (98,-11,17) are not neutral we have to find the right adhesive CC filter to put on screen that will neutralize the white.
L*ab (98,11,-17) which correspond to a light magenta should do the work.
I don't have that precise CC filter at home but I have tried to put on the screen the old CC10M I used to work with in the old analogic era and it seems to work.
The Duv value now is almost perfect and the CRI Ra has increased by 10 unit which is still low for any standard.
In the future I will try to get the perfect CC filter so I could get a better CRI Ra but for the time being I am happy with my workaround.
No worry about loosing the touchscreen ability. It still works even if you put a CC filter on it.
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So you can now use an H6D-100c on a technical camera?
I second Doug's question, a solution was promised to be delivered at the same time as this firmware update regarding tech camera support.
I have not seen any mention thereof in the communication surrounding this, where do we stand?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Mr, Edmond,
Although your workaround seems interesting at first sight it still involved a lot of work that is to carry around the colorchecker and use it to find the right WB for the scene compensating for the screen off calibration.
I already came up with a simple idea that works perfectly.
Since the white screen coordinates in Adobe 1998 RGB space R=243 G=255 B=216 in L*ab (98,-11,17) are not neutral we have to find the right adhesive CC filter to put on screen that will neutralize the white.
L*ab (98,11,-17) which correspond to a light magenta should do the work.
I don't have that precise CC filter at home but I have tried to put on the screen the old CC10M I used to work with in the old analogic era and it seems to work.
The Duv value now is almost perfect and the CRI Ra has increased by 10 unit which is still low for any standard.
In the future I will try to get the perfect CC filter so I could get a better CRI Ra but for the time being I am happy with my workaround.
No worry about loosing the touchscreen ability. It still works even if you put a CC filter on it.
Mr. Tarkowsky,
you are right: why sweat when hardware can do the job? Bravo!
maybe you could s$ll your solution as the perfect $500 Hasselblad screen protector?
Edmund
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Mr. Tarkowsky,
you are right: why sweat when hardware can do the job? Bravo!
maybe you could s$ll your solution as the perfect $500 Hasselblad screen protector?
Edmund
It would be a great idea so one day I could get rich enough to buy a XF 100 but alas I am not good at business so I guess I will stick with Hasselblad.
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It would be a great idea so one day I could get rich enough to buy a XF 100 but alas I am not good at business so I guess I will stick with Hasselblad.
Too bad that subliming to Phase must remain a vaporous dream. :)
Edmund
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I second Doug's question, a solution was promised to be delivered at the same time as this firmware update regarding tech camera support.
I just got the answer from Hasselblad Japan. Please refer to pages 164-168 of the latest manual linked below. Power is provided through the DC input socket from an external power bank. One type is confirmed to have been tested but others should work also.
There are 2 modes:
- Flash sync mode for lenses equiped with a flash sync port (the lens controls speed and aperture)
- pinhole mode for lenses not equiped with one (the back controls the shutter speed and triggers the capture on screen)
http://static.hasselblad.com/2016/04/H6D-User-Manual-v1.4-170418.pdf
Sounds like a workable solution to me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I thought having totally wrong color on the image preview on the screen was a fine Hasselblad tradition? On my Hasseblad H4D-50 the preview is very warm (red tint). I don't bother though as I don't judge colors on the back screen, and I think that most MFD users have considered an accurate screen to be unimportant. AFAIK Hassy's screens on all models for as long as there's been back screens have been significantly off in terms of temp/tint, and noone really cared.
I guess it's just now when users are used to what's available in the higher end 135 formats with very accurate live view renderings and exposure simulations that it's become a "want" also for MFD...
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I thought having totally wrong color on the image preview on the screen was a fine Hasselblad tradition? On my Hasseblad H4D-50 the preview is very warm (red tint). I don't bother though as I don't judge colors on the back screen, and I think that most MFD users have considered an accurate screen to be unimportant. AFAIK Hassy's screens on all models for as long as there's been back screens have been significantly off in terms of temp/tint, and noone really cared.
I guess it's just now when users are used to what's available in the higher end 135 formats with very accurate live view renderings and exposure simulations that it's become a "want" also for MFD...
It looks like MF users have traditionally been willing to tolerate anything in the name of having an "exclusive" product. Maybe those days are indeed over.
Edmund
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I thought having totally wrong color on the image preview on the screen was a fine Hasselblad tradition? On my Hasseblad H4D-50 the preview is very warm (red tint). I don't bother though as I don't judge colors on the back screen, and I think that most MFD users have considered an accurate screen to be unimportant. AFAIK Hassy's screens on all models for as long as there's been back screens have been significantly off in terms of temp/tint, and noone really cared.
I guess it's just now when users are used to what's available in the higher end 135 formats with very accurate live view renderings and exposure simulations that it's become a "want" also for MFD...
Before the H6D-100c I used to have a H4D-60 which mounted the same screen as your H4D-50 and I never had any problem with its magenta cast cause the tonal range was quite wide (7 stops) but of course you can't push your luck any longer.There are limits to tonal and color inaccuracy and the new H6D-100c has gone beyond any tolerance limit.
The tonal range was down to 4 stops and the yellow-green cast was much stronger than the pale H4D-50 magenta cast.
The fact that with the new firmware Hasselblad has increased the tonal range (+3 stops) makes the new H6D-100c screen look at least like your old H4D-50 in term of DR.
For $32995 I guess we are allowed to ask the same quality of old Hassy models or that is asking too much?
In the attached graphs you can compare colorimetric data from the two different screens (before new firmware came out).
It's easy to see that the old H4D-60 screen (and your H4D-50 as well) has a much better color accuracy (CRI Ra =92 vs CRI Ra = 67) and the magenta cast is almost acceptable.
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Hey - welcome Hasselblad.
Hi guys,
Thank you for your feedback and pointing out the issue with colour accuracy on the H6D display. This particular display issue is now improved and additional functionality is introduced with today's H6D-50c and H6D-100c firmware update.
Added functionality and main improvements for H6D Compared to v1.12.1:
• Focus peaking in live view
• Histogram in grip display
• Visual Overexposure warning
• Technical camera (Flash Sync and Pinhole)
• Full support for HTS
• Support for Film Magazine HM 16-32
• Video poster frame in Browse mode
• Reduced power consumption in tethered mode
• Service menu: Image sequence counter reset
• Service menu: Factory reset
• About menu: “Usage” shows shutter count for lens
• Improved contrast level in video
• LCD color improvements
• Language updates
You can find more information and the latest firmware file under "DOWNLOADS" at http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-100c
Kind regards,
The Hasselblad team
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The camera histogram doesn't show the real untouched R,G,B raw channels as RawDigger can do but it shows the raw channels through the eye of a raw converter (Phocus in this case).
Hasselblad assumes that you will process the raw file with Phocus which will applies some conversions to the original raw file.
So what you see in the camera it's nothing else that the histogram you'll see when Phocus open the raw file.
As you may know when Phocus open a raw file it applies some default conversion to it , conversion which is unique to each raw converter.
Adobe Camera RAW will perform a totally different conversion.
Attached there is a picture that according to RawDigger Histogram has no highlights clipped values but the H6D-100c in camera histogram show that the Blue channel has been clipped.Same clipping happens in Phocus (most of the sky is clipped).
But if one opens the same raw file in ACR there is no clipping at all and the histogram is more similar to RawDigger histogram situation.
Phocus in its conversion must have stretched the highlights to the limit.
So with very high DR image I would give ACR a try and drop Phocus.
the issue is when making the image in high DR the green channel shows blown out when in fact its not, besides that the red and blue channels are underexposed. so ACR is an after-the -fact fix. The main objective is to balance the RGB channels at the time of capture, I have added a CC40Mfilter to hold back the green channel this method has been successful. My gripe is why does not Hasselblad offer a option to color balance in camera as they do in Phocus?