Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 12:24:11 pm

Title: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 12:24:11 pm
(This may as well be better suited in some other forum such as the Image Processing or the Color Management forums.)

I am in the process of moving my all Photoshop stuff from an old computer to a new computer.  I am finding that the prints from the new computer prints are lighter than those from the old computer.


Particulars:


Old Computer = Windows 7 (64) Laptop; New Computer =  Windows 10 Laptop

Photoshop CC: 2014 V 14.2.1 x64, identical on both computers; Bridge CC:  V 6.2.0.179 x64, identical on both computers.

Sync facility used to get all the preferences, actions, etc on the new computer.  Other non-syncable items such as Curves presets, Workspaces, etc manually copied from back-up of the old computer.


Printer = HP B9180

Printer driver software downloaded fresh from HP and installed on the new computer.  All icc profiles copied from old computer to proper folders on the new computer.

Printing is done from Photoshop Print function with Photoshop Managed Colors and with Print Settings selected thru the HP plug-in that comes with the driver. 

In both cases, all parameters like icc profiles, rendering intent, black point comp etc are identical.  I went thru each and every option on both Photoshop Print panel as well as HP plug-in panel and made sure both computers matched exactly.

Files being printed are the same on both computers.  Scanned examples are attached. The first one is a comparison of prints of a small color chart (left = old, right = new) and the second one is that of a 21-step tablet (top = old, bottom = new).  These images were printed on the HP Advanced Photo Glossy paper.  Clearly, the prints from the new computer are lighter.  Looking at the step tablet results it looks to me that the 0% and 100% are printing same level (supported by sampling measurements in Photoshop) signifying that it is the gamma that is affected somehow.  Identical results are obtained when printed on Ilford Fiber Silk as well as Canson Photo Rag – the two papers I use most for my prints.


I am flummoxed.  What could be happening?  Is there something in the gut of Windows 10 that is adding or subtracting from the image file before sending to the printer? 

Anyone seen this type of behavior before?  Any ideas to figure out what is going on will be greatly appreciated.  Probably/Hopefully something simple.

Thanks!

P.S.  I seem to not be able to post with the attachments of the files referenced above.  So may be I have to first figure out how to post with attachments.  The files are around 500KB each.  When I post with the files, the site just hangs up.  I tried Firefox as well as Chrome, several times.  Please clue me in with this one first.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 12:38:28 pm
OK.  I made the files way smaller. Let's see if this goes.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 10, 2017, 01:57:37 pm
I think you have done pretty well to get so close on two different systems.

Based on what you have said there is one glaring omission.  That is colour management relating to monitor profiling.

You need to be calibrating and profiling your system and to expect two systems with even the same specification to match exactly is asking a lot. 

Photoshop and Lightroom both colour managed and expect to use your monitor profile to display 'correct' colour.  There are bound to be small discrepancies between two systems graphics pipeline that need to be accounted for and which a good profile will do

You may find that if you printed through a non colour managed Windows application such as Photos letting printer manage colour that the images would match more closely
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 02:36:15 pm
I think you have done pretty well to get so close on two different systems.

Based on what you have said there is one glaring omission.  That is colour management relating to monitor profiling.

You need to be calibrating and profiling your system and to expect two systems with even the same specification to match exactly is asking a lot. 

Photoshop and Lightroom both colour managed and expect to use your monitor profile to display 'correct' colour.  There are bound to be small discrepancies between two systems graphics pipeline that need to be accounted for and which a good profile will do

You may find that if you printed through a non colour managed Windows application such as Photos letting printer manage colour that the images would match more closely

Thanks, Tony.

I did not mention anything about the monitor since I thought the monitor profile does not play a role in how a certain set of RGB data is sent over to the printer (although my assumption could be wrong.)  I did do the monitor calibration on the new computer using the X-rite ColorMunki Display with identical parameters as I did the old one.  They both look close enough so far as I can expect from a pair of monitors with completely different technologies 7 years apart. 

I will try your suggestion of sending the file from a non-Photoshop application with Printer-managed printing.  Or I can also repeat the same thing as before but by deliberately changing the monitor profile to the default to see if that changes anything.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 10, 2017, 03:09:15 pm
...
I did not mention anything about the monitor since I thought the monitor profile does not play a role in how a certain set of RGB data is sent over to the printer (although my assumption could be wrong.)  I did do the monitor calibration on the new computer using the X-rite ColorMunki Display with identical parameters as I did the old one.  They both look close enough so far as I can expect from a pair of monitors with completely different technologies 7 years apart.
The fact that the monitors are different technologies and your graphics card is probably more up to date coupled with your monitor profile reflecting the actual state of display for colour savvy applications to display correctly I think is the crux of the issue you are experiencing.   Looking close enough is very different from being an exact match which is what you would need to get the same print - this is probably expecting too much without a lot of fine system tuning

Quote
I will try your suggestion of sending the file from a non-Photoshop application with Printer-managed printing.  Or I can also repeat the same thing as before but by deliberately changing the monitor profile to the default to see if that changes anything.
My suggestion is to send the image from a non colour managed application of which Photo in Windows is just one.  The reasoning behind sending to a non colour savvy app is that it will make no adjustments to the image data to account for the monitor profile.  So I am expecting a match as the data will not be altered - of course I could be wrong  :o

EDIT: I think that going through PS and selecting Printer manages colour will achieve the same thing as going through another app as the data has not gone through the PS colour managed pipeline  :-[
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 05:44:26 pm
The fact that the monitors are different technologies and your graphics card is probably more up to date coupled with your monitor profile reflecting the actual state of display for colour savvy applications to display correctly I think is the crux of the issue you are experiencing.   Looking close enough is very different from being an exact match which is what you would need to get the same print - this is probably expecting too much without a lot of fine system tuning
My suggestion is to send the image from a non colour managed application of which Photo in Windows is just one.  The reasoning behind sending to a non colour savvy app is that it will make no adjustments to the image data to account for the monitor profile.  So I am expecting a match as the data will not be altered - of course I could be wrong  :o

EDIT: I think that going through PS and selecting Printer manages colour will achieve the same thing as going through another app as the data has not gone through the PS colour managed pipeline  :-[

I am still having trouble understanding why a monitor profile would interfere when you are printing an image file, identical in both cases.  Monitor profile is used to display a color corrected file on the monitor.  If I understand it correctly, Photoshop does not change the file before it applies the print icc profile as it is readying to send to the computer.  That would be double profiling.  My problem is not that the print does not look like the monitor (that could be tackled separately.) The problem is two prints from the same printer sent from two different computers with all else (as far as I can tell) remaining the same. 

In any case, here are results from prints made with different conditions: 

The first attachment is the comparison between old vs new sent from Microsoft Paint.  Same difference as before, i.e. new = lighter.

The second attachment is comparison of Photoshop managed vs Printer managed in both cases.  No effect of what management used intra-computer.  Again lighter printing in case of new computer.

Mystery Continues....

Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 10, 2017, 05:55:46 pm
I moved from a Windows 7 computer to a Windows 10 system, with no differences in print colors.  I would suggest you compare the two using only the HP driver, leave the plug-in out of the path, use the Photoshop print setup.  I have no prior knowledge, just trying to simplify the process, believe that one should minimize the use of printer manufacturer software.

And yes, the monitor profile should have no influence, assuming the color management settings are correct.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 10, 2017, 06:54:23 pm
...
In any case, here are results from prints made with different conditions: 

The first attachment is the comparison between old vs new sent from Microsoft Paint.  Same difference as before, i.e. new = lighter.

The second attachment is comparison of Photoshop managed vs Printer managed in both cases.  No effect of what management used intra-computer.  Again lighter printing in case of new computer.
...
Lets now then assume that the colour management settings are correct in both cases

So a non colour managed application also shows a similar disparity in printing between the old and new systems. 

The only thing left that I can think of is the printer driver and if this has changed which I suspect is the case between two systems.  Checking the HP website reveals a change from Windows 7 to Windows 10 drivers.

Operating Systems: Windows 7 (64-bit)
Release date: Oct 20, 2009
File name:
PS_BSIZE_CDA_B9100_Net_Full_Win_WW_130_140.exe (170.2 MB)


Operating Systems:  Windows 10 (64-bit)
Release date: Aug 25, 2014
File name:
PS_BSIZE_CDA_B9100_Net_Full_Win_WW_140_404-4.exe (127.4 MB)

From what you have said I now suspect that the driver you are using on the new computer is the latest Windows 10 from August 2014 and your old Win 7 system used the driver dated October 2009.  Difference in drivers may well account for the small changes you are seeing. 

If you really need to prove that this is the case then you would need to remove the new drivers and substitute the old Windows 7 to equal the playing field, however there is no guarantee that they would work.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 07:41:43 pm
Tony, I really appreciate your spending time on this...you are right I did download the Windows 10 version.  I didn't even think about it.  I figured they couldn't have updated the driver for this old old printer.  I am on to it.  Will let know if that works...fingers crossed...:Niranjan.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 10, 2017, 07:44:15 pm
Tony,

I have to respectfully disagree with you wrt driver differences, with certain assumptions.  If the drivers are truly operating in all color management off mode, then they are delivering the RGB values of each pixel unmodified to the printer, therefore there should be no difference.  I'm assuming also that the printer didn't change, i.e. no new firmware.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: Wayne Fox on April 10, 2017, 07:54:22 pm
I think you have done pretty well to get so close on two different systems.

Based on what you have said there is one glaring omission.  That is colour management relating to monitor profiling.

You need to be calibrating and profiling your system and to expect two systems with even the same specification to match exactly is asking a lot. 

this is true if he is having trouble getting the displayed image to match. The issue is the printing pipeline not delivering identical results, which should not be affected at all by the "monitor profile".  Sending the file from the computer to the printer should deliver identical results, even if it is sent from 10 different machines, as long as color management is setup correctly.

I'm not a windows user, but when this happens on a mac it is either a driver installation issue, or a setting in one of the driver dialog boxes that is usually to blame. On windows I believe there are some other issues to get the OS from interfering.

Based on the information so far however I can't determine which of the two machines is delivering "accurate" color.  It is quite possible that incorrect settings on the original machine produced a print that was then compensated for by the display profile and luminance calibration, and the new machine is producing "accurate color".

I didn't read all the replies (sorry, really slammed), but the first thing to do is download a known standard reference file such as bill atkinsons (there's a recent thread that provides a link to his file) or the one at outbackphoto.com and print that.  That shouldn't print light, if it does then something is amiss (and I leave that to the windows users), but I assume typical things like double checking all settings in windows color managment, maybe reinstalling the printer drivers, etc.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 10, 2017, 08:34:13 pm
Tony, I really appreciate your spending time on this...you are right I did download the Windows 10 version.  I didn't even think about it.  I figured they couldn't have updated the driver for this old old printer.  I am on to it.  Will let know if that works...fingers crossed...:Niranjan.

Well...that didn't make a difference.  Removed the Win10 driver and installed the Win7 driver.  It did not install a lot of auxiliary junk but the driver installed alright.  Alas, the end result is identical to the one with Win10 driver.  Back to square one....
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 11, 2017, 07:44:18 am
Tony,

I have to respectfully disagree with you wrt driver differences, with certain assumptions.  If the drivers are truly operating in all color management off mode, then they are delivering the RGB values of each pixel unmodified to the printer, therefore there should be no difference.  I'm assuming also that the printer didn't change, i.e. no new firmware.

Richard Southworth
Richard,
No problem, disagreement and friendly discussion is good and I certainly do not disagree with the assumptions you are making about drivers operation and the delivery of data. 

However we are faced with a system (two actually) that we cannot personally dive into and get hands dirty,  with currently no obvious answer as to the whys and wherefores of what appears to be delivery of different data from the same image.

Between the two systems virtually everything is a variable and while certain things may seem highly improbable they cannot IMO be ruled out without first investigating.  It is also not unusual in any complex system to find more than one problem area that when combined produce a fault but on their own wont necessarily show.

...
I'm not a windows user, but when this happens on a mac it is either a driver installation issue, or a setting in one of the driver dialog boxes that is usually to blame. On windows I believe there are some other issues to get the OS from interfering.
Agreed, driver issues are just as likely to cause an unexpected problem with Windows the same as Mac.  Although I have an iMac on my desktop I have not bothered with colour management as it is not really suited to photo editing due to monitor issues.  As to Windows colour management there have been some improvements over the years with OS changes but also some seemingly backward steps.  Bottom line is that we cannot make assumptions and must check everything in a colour managed workflow if things appear to go wrong.

Quote
Based on the information so far however I can't determine which of the two machines is delivering "accurate" color.  It is quite possible that incorrect settings on the original machine produced a print that was then compensated for by the display profile and luminance calibration, and the new machine is producing "accurate color".
Spot on, which of the two systems produces the better or more accurate colour, and in this scenario we have come back to the differences in display profile. 

Quote
I didn't read all the replies (sorry, really slammed), but the first thing to do is download a known standard reference file such as bill atkinsons (there's a recent thread that provides a link to his file) or the one at outbackphoto.com and print that.  That shouldn't print light, if it does then something is amiss (and I leave that to the windows users), but I assume typical things like double checking all settings in windows color managment, maybe reinstalling the printer drivers, etc.
Interesting idea about printing a third party reference file, but you could argue that the images presented are actually reference files in themselves in as much as they contain an interpretation of the same data from two different systems.  Still it may prove a useful test if it confirms that one system prints darker than the other from the same data. 

Well...that didn't make a difference.  Removed the Win10 driver and installed the Win7 driver.  It did not install a lot of auxiliary junk but the driver installed alright.  Alas, the end result is identical to the one with Win10 driver.  Back to square one....
Niranjan, thats a shame as you say back to square one

Through all this I guess we all make some assumptions and one of mine is that the prints shown were made at the same time through both systems and that enough alternative images also compared that way and the difference is  darker images from the old system.  Further that the ink set and paper batch remained exactly the same throughout the tests.  Can you confirm this to be the case?
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 08:53:48 am
Through all this I guess we all make some assumptions and one of mine is that the prints shown were made at the same time through both systems and that enough alternative images also compared that way and the difference is  darker images from the old system.  Further that the ink set and paper batch remained exactly the same throughout the tests.  Can you confirm this to be the case?

All prints that I am showing were made successively by printing on one computer, swapping the USB cord and printing from the second computer on the same physical paper right next to the preceding image (do not trust my eyes unless they are next to each other!)  The images I am showing are not made by cut-and-pastes but merely crops from the rest of the sheet.  Yes, to your second question.  I printed some real world images as well and they follow the same pattern.  Attached is one such example.  Yes to the last question as well - no new inks installed in the mean time.

Here is an another data point to chew on.  I printed from a third computer, a really low-end netbook with Win 8.2 installed on it.  It has a terrible display and there is no display calibration, hence running in the default mode.  I downloaded the HP driver (specific for the Win8.2 version) and used Microsoft Paint to print the color chart image next to the others and lo and behold, it matches the old computer.  So, so far the problem is isolated to the new machine.  Since Richard S. has seen no difference on his migration from 7 to 10, there should not be anything inherent in the 10 software that is the culprit. 

I understand your cynicism about not taking anything granted with these things.  Who knows where short circuit or leaky circuit (more appropriately leaky color) is in a thousand different way data gets manipulated before we see the print.

Currently I am stripping the driver from the new machine entirely and re-installing the appropriate Win10 HP software, double checking all color management entries in Windows and have a another go at it. 

Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 11:51:14 am
Currently I am stripping the driver from the new machine entirely and re-installing the appropriate Win10 HP software, double checking all color management entries in Windows and have a another go at it. 

No dice.  Same difference.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 11, 2017, 12:09:19 pm
Grasping at straws, check your Color Management settings, as I remember same format for both W7 and W10, make sure "Use my settings for this device" is checked.

Richard Southworth

Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 01:49:59 pm
Grasping at straws, check your Color Management settings, as I remember same format for both W7 and W10, make sure "Use my settings for this device" is checked.

Well, that was a good find.  I did not have "use my setting" checked for the printer (I did have that checked for the display)  in both computers.  I was not aware you were supposed to do that.  In any case, I checked after checking and printed again for both computers.  Nothing changed.  No milkshake at the end of that straw! 
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 11, 2017, 01:55:47 pm
Did you try not using the HP plug-in, going directly from Photoshop into the printer driver?  And I assume you moved over the same icc profile?

Another thing that comes to mind is to make sure you are using the image embedded profile in both Photoshop instances, don't have color settings mis-matched.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: jpegman on April 11, 2017, 01:58:33 pm
Your statement (Reply #3 to TonyW) "I am still having trouble understanding why a monitor profile would interfere when you are printing an image file, identical in both cases.  Monitor profile is used to display a color corrected file on the monitor.  If I understand it correctly, Photoshop does not change the file before it applies the print icc profile as it is readying to send to the computer.  That would be double profiling.  My problem is not that the print does not look like the monitor (that could be tackled separately.) The problem is two prints from the same printer sent from two different computers with all else (as far as I can tell) remaining the same." tells me (Not to be taken as a putdown-but constructive criticism!) that you don't understand "Color Management" at all!
For more insight check out DigitalDog ColorManagement for photographers (http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorManagementforDesigners.pdf)old but good- or CambridgeColor video (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm) 

In addition, as someone mentioned, the very first step with printer problems is to normalize everything and print a standard image on both and now see if the issue is the image (or color management profile) or the printer/driver!

Check out DigitalDog's standard image (http://digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg (http://digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg)) or Marrutt Colour Calibration Image (http://www.marrutt.com/inkjet-inks/calibration-image (http://www.marrutt.com/inkjet-inks/calibration-image)

Good luck
Jpegman
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 02:32:57 pm
Did you try not using the HP plug-in, going directly from Photoshop into the printer driver?  And I assume you moved over the same icc profile?

Another thing that comes to mind is to make sure you are using the image embedded profile in both Photoshop instances, don't have color settings mis-matched.

Richard Southworth

Richard, I have already been using the Photoshop Print utility with "Photoshop Managed Colors" and then going into the HP Printer Settings from there to set other printer related parameters, as per attached.

Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 11, 2017, 02:35:50 pm
Well, that was a good find.  I did not have "use my setting" checked for the printer (I did have that checked for the display)  in both computers.  I was not aware you were supposed to do that.  In any case, I checked after checking and printed again for both computers.  Nothing changed.  No milkshake at the end of that straw!
I think (not 100%) that the Use my settings tick box would only apply to a printer if you wanted to limit it to use one profile only and then you would need to set it as default.  Whereas with the monitor profile you would want it to be fixed to your most recent or desired profile.

I have had another thought spurred on by the Windows Colour Management dialogue.  Can you check on both systems and see if you have 'Use Windows display calibration' in Colour Management dialogue Advanced tab checked or unchecked.  The checkbox is supposed to enable the gamma correction components of the ICC profile.  I am not going to guess what may happen if the switch is on for one and off for the other  :-\.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 11, 2017, 02:44:09 pm
It's been a while since I had an HP printer, if I remember right printing from the Advanced section of the printer driver allows more detailed control?  I know it's tiresome, but how about a screen print of the advanced settings?

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 02:52:43 pm
I have had another thought spurred on by the Windows Colour Management dialogue.  Can you check on both systems and see if you have 'Use Windows display calibration' in Colour Management dialogue Advanced tab checked or unchecked.  The checkbox is supposed to enable the gamma correction components of the ICC profile.  I am not going to guess what may happen if the switch is on for one and off for the other  :-\.

Both computer have it like your top capture, i.e. unchecked and grayed out. 
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 03:10:07 pm
It's been a while since I had an HP printer, if I remember right printing from the Advanced section of the printer driver allows more detailed control?  I know it's tiresome, but how about a screen print of the advanced settings?

Not tiresome if I get to fix this problem.  I created some digital negative correction curves based on the old machine.  They will get messed up if I try to use the new one.  That is a lot of repeat work.

Here are the screen-shots...the advanced tab is not so advanced as the name would suggest.  The others are more so.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 11, 2017, 03:28:27 pm
I get a little worried when I see "automatic" for ink volume, although I would assume the actual setting to be the same from one system to another.

I'm out of bullets, good luck to you, if you figure it out please post the solution.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 03:47:39 pm
Yeah, both the same - on automatic.  I will let the good engineers at HP figure that one out.

Thanks a bunch for your indulgence, Richard.  I am out of ideas as well.  I guess I could do a "correction curve" to account for the discrepancy between the 2 computers.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 11, 2017, 05:12:10 pm
Both computer have it like your top capture, i.e. unchecked and grayed out.
Checked or unchecked does not make a difference in the print regardless of the computer.  Just another data point.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 12:27:51 pm
An update:

After seeing that the prints from this new Windows PC were printing lighter than those form either Windows 7 or Window 8.1 machines, I wanted to check a second Windows 10 PC to ascertain whether or not there is something unique in the operating system and/or how talks to a printing app in conjunction with the printer driver.  For that I borrowed a random laptop from a friend, a run-of-the-mill Dell laptop for home use with Windows 10 installed.  I wanted to see how that stacked up against the others.  This laptop has no monitor calibration/profiling done whatsoever. 

In order that I can remove any potential conflicts with color spaces, color profiles and the like, I created a completely new un-tagged test target file in Photoshop.  Additionally, I downloaded and installed the Adobe Color Printing Utility (ACPU) on each of the computers so I can print without color management.  Also, installed were the HP B9180 printer drivers appropriate for the installed Windows version (Windows 8.2 and 10 both share the same driver version as per HP recommendation.) 

I then printed the target on each computer side by side, one after another, on the same HP Advanced Photo Glossy paper using ACPU under identical conditions.  Within the Printer Properties dialog, Application Management was specified and a generic gloss paper type selected to instruct the printer to deposit the right (PK) black ink (custom created without any profile attached so there is no chance of some sort of conflict.)

The results are as shown in the attachment.

As can be seen, #1 and #2 from Windows 7 and 8.1 respectively are identical, visually as well as statistically by measurements in Photoshop.  On the other hand #3 and #4 are also identical, but they are both easily discernible as lighter than the other two.

At this point I am not sure what to think.  The consistency of discrepancy is intriguing.   Obviously, there is something going on that is related to Windows 10, if not inherent to it then may be in how it talks to the printer or vice versa.  I don't know what happens when ACPU hands off the file to the printer for it to be printed but somehow the signal from Windows 10 is to put less ink. 

To eliminate the role of the printer in this behavior, I would have to get a different printer (which I don't have and which would be hard to borrow.) 

I have done extensive searches both on internet at large as well as LuLa forums and have come up empty on anyone talking about seeing anything like this.  The question is if anyone can repeat the comparison (at least between an 8 machine and a 10 machine) side by side on a different printer.  Any volunteers out there?

Thanks.

:Niranjan.

Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: Doug Gray on April 24, 2017, 01:43:09 pm
I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged. Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above.

I do this as a matter of course when updating/grading OSs. Largely out of fear of some hidden conversion happening like the Mac OSs seem to suffer from time to time. But so far I haven't seen any changes.

This brings up a real need. To capture and decode the raw data being sent to printers. That would make it easy to tell if something odd was going on in the OS. I can capture the raw data with Wireshark but decoding it to see what the printer commands are requires information about the native printer protocols.  I haven't been able to find much at all about them outside of some ancient stuff. Perhaps the best place to look would be the open source, Linux, community. I don't know where this stuff is documented but somewhere it must be.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 02:17:10 pm
Niranjan,

Grasping at straws, I suggest you open up the "automatic" field in the driver advanced properties ink volume, see if the same choices exist for both driver versions.  It's about the only place left that you haven't checked, that could possibly change the patch "brightness".

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: TonyW on April 24, 2017, 02:39:22 pm
I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged. Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above....
After grasping what appears to be the last straw from Richard and if the driver choices are the same (it is possible that the driver changes have only been cosmetic i.e. in name only between OS of later vintage 7, 8.* and 10 - I have no proof that this is so!) then I can only believe you are left with one option to describe the behaviour
 
At this time I would be betting on the specific printer driver and the likelihood that HP have abandoned all real support for a printer that was discontinued in 2009.  My suspicion is that someone at HP may have looked at compatibility and found that images printed to an acceptable standard and just left it at that knowing that no further driver development forthcoming if their had been an obvious issue.  Assuming of course that they actually cared to go to this trouble

The changes in density you are observing appear to be relatively small and without comparing side by side or measuring with a device I suspect that they could be missed or ignored particularly in a product no longer supported.  Not suggesting that this is either right or acceptable as it obviously causes you issues that you need to resolve.

Like you I have also searched and would expect by now if it was an OS issue that many more reports would be seen and they would most likely be from all printer manufacturers leading to major driver updates for more recent models (this may have happened of course and I missed it).

It is a shame really as I also have the HP B9180 and have found it to be a good solid machine, mine needing some TLC to see if I can actually getting working again after a long period unused. 
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 02:53:56 pm
I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged.

I do this as a matter of course when updating/grading OSs. Largely out of fear of some hidden conversion happening like the Mac OSs seem to suffer from time to time. But so far I haven't seen any changes.

This is good to know.  I wouldn't surprised if it is indeed the HP printer that is the culprit here.  The repeatability of this phenomenon may as well point to something simple, if it can be found.

Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above.

What is throwing a monkey-wrench on this possibility is that the 8.1 and 10 drivers are physically the same (the same .exe file on HP site that is used to install the driver.)  The file for the 7 is different.  So if the driver was doing it, it should do to the print from 8.1 machine too - or so one would think.  Additionally, I did do a comparison of a 10 machine where I rolled back the driver to that for the 7 and found no change.  I did not try this with these new set of conditions.  Might give a try again and see what happens.

Thanks for the insight.

:Niranjan.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 03:05:13 pm
Grasping at straws, I suggest you open up the "automatic" field in the driver advanced properties ink volume, see if the same choices exist for both driver versions.  It's about the only place left that you haven't checked, that could possibly change the patch "brightness".

OK,  Richard.  After pointing out this item by you (that I had been overlooking as inconsequential,) I did play with it a little.  The problem is this:  If I select manual it takes me to the place I can change the ink from heavy to light with a couple of steps on each side.   As is, it is at the center.  If I leave it at the center and close the window to force manual control, the damn thing goes back to Auto.  Now I could choose a lighter or heavier option if I want to put it on manual instead of the Auto.  In that case, I would have to do the same thing on both computers otherwise the comparison may not be accurate.  I will do that and report.  It's only ink...
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 03:38:23 pm
After grasping what appears to be the last straw from Richard and if the driver choices are the same (it is possible that the driver changes have only been cosmetic i.e. in name only between OS of later vintage 7, 8.* and 10 - I have no proof that this is so!) then I can only believe you are left with one option to describe the behaviour
 
At this time I would be betting on the specific printer driver and the likelihood that HP have abandoned all real support for a printer that was discontinued in 2009.  My suspicion is that someone at HP may have looked at compatibility and found that images printed to an acceptable standard and just left it at that knowing that no further driver development forthcoming if their had been an obvious issue.  Assuming of course that they actually cared to go to this trouble

The changes in density you are observing appear to be relatively small and without comparing side by side or measuring with a device I suspect that they could be missed or ignored particularly in a product no longer supported.  Not suggesting that this is either right or acceptable as it obviously causes you issues that you need to resolve.

Like you I have also searched and would expect by now if it was an OS issue that many more reports would be seen and they would most likely be from all printer manufacturers leading to major driver updates for more recent models (this may have happened of course and I missed it).

It is a shame really as I also have the HP B9180 and have found it to be a good solid machine, mine needing some TLC to see if I can actually getting working again after a long period unused.

Agree with everything.  HP might have dropped the ball.  I love this printer as well, after putting up with all these years learning to deal with every little idiosyncrasies and figuring way around them.  I have been thinking about what I will want to buy next as I intend to be able do 17" (or larger) prints at some point in the future.  I see the Canon and Epson both have some good points but there are a lot of issues as well.  Anecdotal chatter is very confusing.   I leave the B9180 turned off for 3-4 months at a time and when I come back and turn it on, it's up and running without having to do any kind of maintenance cycle.   I am not sure any of the other two makes can boast of such a thing.  The ink costs have come down as people are selling their left-over stash on eBay for a third of the price.  I would consider one of the bigger brothers of B9180, like the z3100 but it may be too big for me and I would be afraid about precisely something like this down the line when a new OS comes out and they don't give an updated driver.  I know there some big fans out here that do printing for a living.

Looks like in the short term, not wanting go change all my old photos to darken them, I might have to keep the old machine around just to do the printing - until Microsoft decides to dump on it too.

Thanks.

:Niranjan.
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 04:14:17 pm
Niranjan,

Another choice in the printer driver that can affect ink volume is the selected media.  I know you are choosing the same paper in each driver, but HP may have changed the ink volume for "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" between drivers, it's a popular paper and they may have tweaked the formulation seeking a marginal improvement.  You could choose another paper, maybe some generic type if such exists, and try again.

I doubt that the ink volume setting on "automatic" would be a factor, given your experience, but I guess the only way to be sure is to experiment as you described.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 04:56:48 pm
Richard:

The thing is HP driver does not know I am using "HP Adv Photo Paper" as I have defined a generic paper called appropriately "Generic Gloss" and assign it paper type of "Photo" which in HP parlance means "glossy" so use the PK black (as opposed to "Photo Rag" means to use MK ink.)  There is a Custom Paper facility where you can define the type of surface and optionally attach an icc profile which I leave blank.  Then you choose "Application Management" in combination with the "Generic Gloss" paper and the printer should not be controlling anything.  I have used this for a long time ever since there was a confusion about "double profiling."  I use the same for other gloss papers like the Ilford Fiber Silk or the Canson Baryta which I use the most for my glossy photo printing.  I defined a "Generic Rag" in the similar manner when I want to print on something like Canson Photographique Rag with Photoshop Managed Colors in the Photoshop Print Settings with appropriate Canson provided icc profile selected.

I hope I making sense....

:Niranjan.

P.S. Even though lately I have standardized my tests on the HP Adv paper, my earlier tests did include the Ilford and Canson papers and the same trend was observed. 
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 05:17:29 pm
One of your earlier posts had a screenshot of the printer driver where Paper Type was "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" - I'm assuming that may be communicated to the printer in some form to influence the ink mixture.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 05:46:30 pm
One of your earlier posts had a screenshot of the printer driver where Paper Type was "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" - I'm assuming that may be communicated to the printer in some form to influence the ink mixture.

Aha...you got me there.  I took the screen shot of the first thing that came up when you open the window (that and any time you change something else it might decide to change itself to HP Adv Photo Glossy - I think that was a subliminal way for HP to push people to use their paper.)  I didn't show the actual parameters I normally use or I used for these tests.  I think I was trying to show what utility I was using and just took the screen shot without paying attention to what was there.  Actual one would look like the attached.

:Niranjan.


Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 05:58:22 pm
Ok, I understand.  However, I would assume that "Generic Gloss" vs. "Generic Rag" would affect ink volume other than just pk vs mk.  I don't believe you're in danger of "double profiling" for choosing a specific media, I've done it on every paper I've profiled.  Usually a third party paper manufacturer will specify a printer manufacturer paper choice for their canned profiles, and I typically use the same for my custom profiles.  Of course, one must be consistent in the paper type between profile targets and profiled printing.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 06:08:10 pm
In fact, put yourself in the place of a printer manufacturer developing a modified driver for a new/later version OS.  I would bet they are more careful about testing consistency of print quality on their own paper types than on the "generic" choices.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 06:45:46 pm
Richard: 

I am not sure if I am being clear or complete.  There is also history behind all this.  I leave the whole color management on the Photoshop side.  That is also the recommendation from all of the third party paper people who provided the profiles.  So the icc profile is selected together with the "Photoshop Managed Color" option in Photoshop Print Settings, rendering intent etc.  So if I was going to print on HP Adv Glossy, I would choose color profile named as such in Photoshop.  Now there was a bug in the driver (there still is after 10 years, shows how careful HP is) that when you changed one thing, let's say the Paper Source or Paper Size, it would randomly change something else like Application management would change to AdobeRGB.  At that point, if I had HP Adv Glossy chosen in the Paper Type, it would automatically apply the profile again even though the signal from Photoshop would be hey, I am doing the color management.  I thought I was going crazy trying to figure out what was going on.  Finally I decided to create these generic paper types without attached profiles so even if the Color Management changed, it would have no profile so it will print as it came from Photoshop.  As far as I know, when you are using Application Management,  the purpose of the paper type is only to use the correct black ink.  I am fairly certain, as paranoid as I am, I would have done the experiments to compare the outputs from choosing paper types of HP Adv Glossy vs my home-brewed "Generic Gloss."  That's going back many years though.

:Niranjan
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: rasworth on April 24, 2017, 06:57:51 pm
I think most of us agree the "right" way to do color management is thru Photoshop, or "Application Managed", i.e. dumb down the printer driver to do as little as possible.  And I can understand the frustration of a driver bug that tends to throw you back into printer color management.  The last HP printer I used was a dye based, I don't remember this type of problem.  Since then I've only used Epson printers, and they haven't had the same issue.

However, I do believe even with HP that the paper choice does signal to the printer a particular ink recipe.  It's hard to imagine one recipe fits all paper types, and the printer manufacturer is incented to throw the combination on inks onto their branded paper that maximizes the gamut without causing pooling or other excess ink problems.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
Post by: nirpat89 on April 24, 2017, 10:08:50 pm
More data:

1.  No difference whether you use "HP Advanced Glossy Paper" or "Generic Gloss" as paper type.

2.  Ink density can be metered with that Ink Volume button in "change" mode.  Higher = darker, lower = lighter than the "auto" for the base case of Win 7 PC.

3.  Same thing happens with Win 10 PC, but the trend is still intact, i.e. with the same level of Ink Volume, the 10 is lighter than 7. 

Signing out...

:Niranjan.