Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: TommyWeir on April 02, 2017, 07:22:16 am
-
Hi all
Love all the great experience here and suggestions so thought I'd turn to y'all and see if you have a suggestion or two for me. I'm making a handmade book/folio for a photography project. It will consist of photographs and text all held in a slip case. All handmade. Experimental and following the model used by William Gedney and John Cage in their Iris Garden book. http://www.spacescorners.com/books/Iris-Garden-John-Cage-William-Gedney.html
Trying to identify the right stock, I usually print on a lustre (Permajet Oyster) for work prints and Canson Baryta Photographique for exhibition from my Epson P600. But for this I'd like to explore matt stocks, double sided. Given the nature of it I can mix different ones.
So understanding that this is all highly subjective... but still asking :-) I'm looking to identify a smooth double sided matt stock that has good feel, but a tight surface, and sturdy to a point.
Thoughts?
-
My first thought is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo:
https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/digital-fineart-collection/matt-fineart/p/Product/show/8/5.html
but if you look around you'll probably find a few more that are similar.
-
That would be my suggestion as well. I had a look at it in the context of my review articlesVakue-Added Products (https://luminous-landscape.com/hahnemuhle-paper-panorama-paper-photo-album-tin-photo-box-review/) and Eight Papers (https://luminous-landscape.com/eight-papers-review-eight-papers/) on this website:
-
Thanks guys, will check that out. I've printed on H Photo Rag before, and liked the results. I didn't know it came in a Duo.
-
The book in your example doesn't look bound, its just a bunch of folded sheets.
This approach will amplify issues you will run into with matte papers.
If you look at matte paper with a microscope you will see the surface is rough, as it scatters light creating the matte.
These surfaces tend to 'rub off' ink when pressed and moved against each other. binding helps to some degree.
Next try to take some of the paper you are thinking about using and run a fingernail across it, does it leave a mark?
Luster and traditional photographic papers tend to do way better in 'durability'.
If you care about the sequencing of your book you might want to try to sew the pages together into signatures, its really very easy.
Gary
-
Gary, thanks I will be trying that. I'm more used to the properties of lustre stock for sure. I think the hand marked, used quality of the loose matte sheets has a certain appeal. I'm not being as focussed on durability or detail with this one. I'm also just curious about the folio as opposed to bound approach. That all said, I will look up sewing techniques, again new to me, and a bound finished item may well be an outcome I choose.
I've found my usual lustre stock comes in a duo format. I could go there too.
-
Moab (legion paper) also has a dual sided paper: entrada rag natural 300
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503114-REG/Moab_R08_ERN300851125_Entrada_Rag_Natural_300.html?sts=pi
regards
Larry.
-
Moab (legion paper) also has a dual sided paper: entrada rag natural 300
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503114-REG/Moab_R08_ERN300851125_Entrada_Rag_Natural_300.html?sts=pi
regards
Larry.
I can't speak highly enough about the beauty of this paper. It is pretty much all I use for my landscapes and nature work: framed prints, folios and cards. It is lovely to hold no touch, the kind of things folios are made for.
-
I can't speak highly enough about the beauty of this paper. It is pretty much all I use for my landscapes and nature work: framed prints, folios and cards. It is lovely to hold no touch, the kind of things folios are made for.
+1. Entrada Rag Natural 300gsm and Entrada Rag Natural 190gsm. There are "bright white" versions as well, but I don't recommend the bright white due to the OBA content. The Natural version is OBA-free. The base sheet is cotton. Even the 300 gsm roll version is dual-side printable (I make many large prints with back printed metadata and know of no other Wide format roll media with dual-side printable coatings) The dual side coating symmetry on both roll and cut sheet also makes the anti-curl properties of this paper as good as it gets. It is also as or more scuff resistant as any fine art matte inkjet paper I've ever used, and I've tried a lot of them. Plus the price, at least in the USA, is significantly lower than comparable Hahnemuhle or Canson papers.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
-
Woah, thanks guys. New to me, I hadn't heard of Moab at all. It's available on this side of the Atlantic too, great, thank you.
-
You remind me of this workshops that I was interested to try sometime http://www.joewrightphotography.com/book-making-workshops/ , difficult being in U.K. and me working in Spain...
Anyway, if you bind the pages together, maybe go for a paper that it is 190 gsm instead of 300 gsm, if you have many pages, it will fold more easily
http://dgpfotografia.com
-
I too make handmade books from original inkjet prints on an Epson 3880. After trying virtually every double-sided paper I can find in the US, I've settled on http://moabpaper.com/lasal-photo. I've tried the semigloss but much prefer the matte. It's smoother than entrada; I think it's slightly higher, better contrast, deeper blacks; and it's half the price. It's very close to the hahnemuhle but much cheaper.
-
Definitely looking at binding as an alternative approach and yes, I'm experimenting with a 220 Photo Rag Duo from Canson - http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/products/rag-photographique-duo
But waiting to see how much ink I put on it...
-
You can also try Epson Hot/Cold Press. Officially, they are single sided, but their specific manufacturing process makes them double sided. The reverse side is a little bit rough, but only a little bit compared to the front side. I use this paper (especially Hot Press Natural) for beautiful double sided prints (and blacks are the blackest among all matt cotton rags).
-
There's certainly something about black and white on matte stock... Quite mysterious.
Impressed with the Canson Rag Photo Duo, there's a lot of ink going down, no show through even with the 220gsm. It's a warm stock too, which I like, I may work it with the Hannemuehle which is heavier for sure.
As soon as I can I'm going to check out that Entrada.
-
All papers suggested good choices. I prefer the Moab Entrada Natural. Paper color similar to HPR. Important to spray
both sides with Moab Desert Varnish. Two coats should do. Helps eliminate or at least reduce rub off of darker
inks. Works well on Baryta Gloss or Luster.
Taught the Digital Book class for 11 years at the San Francisco Art Institute. Lot's has changed with digital papers
since I moved on in 2012 but I think the Moab Entrada Natural still a fine choice for books.
I've used Moab's Chinle books for a variety of my portfolios. Limited to 8x9 inches and 12x13 inches is size these books
offer both the Moab Entrada Natural in 190 weight and the Lasal Photo Matte in 235 weight.
Good luck.
-
http://moabpaper.com/chinle-ice-nine/
I've been quite happy with the Chinle Ice Nine portfolio with the Moab Entrada Rag - no problem printing both sides and I really like the pre-drilled paper and the portfolio by Case Envy. I have used the Moab Desert Varnish when I think it's warranted.
I haven't tried the Lasal Photo Matte but now that it's been mentioned I'll likely give it a try.
-
The support for the Moab Entrada is near universal. Very interesting for a paper which was new to me.
MJ I did spray using an 'Artists' Soft Fixative' which is normally used for pastels and the like, it worked remarkably well, I can see how the impact of abrasions and so on are reduced. I'll try a second coat and keep an eye out for the Moab version, I presume they are all similar.
-
I think it should be noted that you will need to let the paper dry before spraying. I usually let it dry for 24 hours
before spraying the one side. Some may prefer less time. I think it might be best to spray one side before sending the paper through the printer for printing to the other side. Gives you some protection from roller and ink bleed marks. Always good to test to see if this applies to your workflow.
Not all sprays the same. Some have very pungent odors whereas the Moab Desert Varnish is pretty descent odor wise. In general it is best to find a spray for inkjet printing papers. Safety masks should be used and unless using a spray booth with proper ventilation spraying outdoors on an appropriate day should be the norm.
I haven't used the Lasal Matte paper lately but you might see a bit better DMax than the Entrada Natural.
That might be because the Lasal is a smooth matte surface. Lasal is whiter but has OBA's. Both
papers fold well. The Chinle Book paper is already pre-scored. There is a workflow for printing on both sides of a
sheet of paper for book presentation. Once learned it's time to put ink on paper.
All the best
-
One or more of you using non-Hahn book materials should check my "Valued Added Products" review Photo Album etc. (https://luminous-landscape.com/hahnemuhle-paper-panorama-paper-photo-album-tin-photo-box-review/) on this website and let us know whether the instructions for printing set-up that I provided there are similar or the same for these other products.
-
Thanks MJ again. I saw that Hanemuehle had in their info leaflet a suggestion that once you've printed a side, and it's time to print the other (I'll wait and spray for sure before, thank you) you feed their Duo with a second sheet underneath to prevent roller marks and strikes on the already printed side.
In my tests I've done two coats of the artists varnish, smells okay, and spaced out the spraying. I'm impressed with the results, it certainly aids the scuffing issue.
-
I'm doing a sewn book and after a suitable warmtone duo paper circa 190gsm. The look I want is Pinnacle Antique Fine Art 210, but that's single-sided. It isn't slightly warm - cream perhaps. The Moab Entrada sounds like a good candidate, but not available in the UK as far as I can see. It looks as if it's going to have to be the Hahnemühle Photo Rag Duo 210 - but can anybody suggest anything warmer still?
David Edge
-
I found the Entrada on Amazon.co.uk, pricey just to say it. This is the 300 gsm Dup but others available too.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B000UN02LY/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492851117&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=moab+entrada+rag+natural+300&dpPl=1&dpID=41f46Jpz3GL&ref=plSrch
-
Mark, At your suggestion/request, I've carefully reviewed your pano-album-tin box review of Hahn value added products. The procedure you describe for the Hahn album works exactly the same with the Moab 13x12 (similarly, 12" square visible page with 1" punched border). The dimensions of Moab's pre-punched 9x8 (8" square with 1" punched border) requires the same procedure with appropriately adjusted dimensions. See https://www.moabpaper.com/chinle for Moab's three offerings. B&H carries all, though some are special order. Of the three finishes--Entrada Natural, Entrada Bright, Lasal Matte--I prefer the Lasal because it's whiter, smoother, deeper black, and better contrast and detail, but that's personal preference. While Lasal has OBAs, remember that these pages rarely see direct sun.
I use these papers primarily to make books with a modified screwpost construction but with custom covers that I also print and coat. See attachments. I make books from 5.5H7.75W to 13H15W, where I cut, hinge, and punch the sheets. But the procedure is conceptually the same as what you described.
By the way, I was intrigued by the 5mm error in your pano example. "You will notice that the photo has about 5mm shorter width than called for. I don’t know how or why Lightroom did this." Since I do a lot of printing on custom pages, including panos, I reproduced your example. Your error was mis-entering the cell size. Up above, you correctly calculate 568.6x184.6mm, but then you enter 565.8x181.9mm. My preferred approach is to enter the desired margins (12.7 instead of 0), maximize cell height and width, and check Zoom to Fill, which takes out any fraction-of-an-inch miscalculation and gives the precise desired aspect ratio.
On another topic (I'll go back to the other threads), I'm anxiously awaiting your review of the Epson P5000, which I'm considering to replace my 3880. Your and others' descriptions of the quirks of loading the P800 with fine art sheets is off-putting. I enjoy your posts--thank you.
-
Mark, At your suggestion/request, I've carefully reviewed your pano-album-tin box review of Hahn value added products. The procedure you describe for the Hahn album works exactly the same with the Moab 13x12 (similarly, 12" square visible page with 1" punched border). The dimensions of Moab's pre-punched 9x8 (8" square with 1" punched border) requires the same procedure with appropriately adjusted dimensions. See https://www.moabpaper.com/chinle for Moab's three offerings. B&H carries all, though some are special order. Of the three finishes--Entrada Natural, Entrada Bright, Lasal Matte--I prefer the Lasal because it's whiter, smoother, deeper black, and better contrast and detail, but that's personal preference. While Lasal has OBAs, remember that these pages rarely see direct sun.
I use these papers primarily to make books with a modified screwpost construction but with custom covers that I also print and coat. See attachments. I make books from 5.5H7.75W to 13H15W, where I cut, hinge, and punch the sheets. But the procedure is conceptually the same as what you described.
Hi Mark,
I wonder if you could talk a little more about how you made the covers for your photo book?
Also, how do you like the Moab Lasal Matte paper? Does it compare well to more expensive matte papers like the Canson Rag Photographique or Epson Legacy Rag?
I am trying to find a photo book option for higher print quality than Blurb offers and hopefully at a lower price. I'm willing to tradeoff the presentability/first impression of the book for more utility and lower costs. I've thought of screw post bound books but I'm actually leaning toward plastic comb or wire spiral bound books. They are easy to assemble, lay flat, you can use very high quality papers, and except for the initial cost of the binding machine they are relatively inexpensive. The tradeoff is they aren't a particularly elegant presentation. I've just ordered some covers that will let me experiment with 11x14" books.
Thanks,
Paul
-
I would value hearing about that too.
The Moab video on assembly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rrhNDOxtNo I presume you have a different source for the covers?
-
Mark, At your suggestion/request, I've carefully reviewed your pano-album-tin box review of Hahn value added products. The procedure you describe for the Hahn album works exactly the same with the Moab 13x12 (similarly, 12" square visible page with 1" punched border). The dimensions of Moab's pre-punched 9x8 (8" square with 1" punched border) requires the same procedure with appropriately adjusted dimensions. See https://www.moabpaper.com/chinle for Moab's three offerings. B&H carries all, though some are special order. Of the three finishes--Entrada Natural, Entrada Bright, Lasal Matte--I prefer the Lasal because it's whiter, smoother, deeper black, and better contrast and detail, but that's personal preference. While Lasal has OBAs, remember that these pages rarely see direct sun.
I use these papers primarily to make books with a modified screwpost construction but with custom covers that I also print and coat. See attachments. I make books from 5.5H7.75W to 13H15W, where I cut, hinge, and punch the sheets. But the procedure is conceptually the same as what you described.
By the way, I was intrigued by the 5mm error in your pano example. "You will notice that the photo has about 5mm shorter width than called for. I don’t know how or why Lightroom did this." Since I do a lot of printing on custom pages, including panos, I reproduced your example. Your error was mis-entering the cell size. Up above, you correctly calculate 568.6x184.6mm, but then you enter 565.8x181.9mm. My preferred approach is to enter the desired margins (12.7 instead of 0), maximize cell height and width, and check Zoom to Fill, which takes out any fraction-of-an-inch miscalculation and gives the precise desired aspect ratio.
On another topic (I'll go back to the other threads), I'm anxiously awaiting your review of the Epson P5000, which I'm considering to replace my 3880. Your and others' descriptions of the quirks of loading the P800 with fine art sheets is off-putting. I enjoy your posts--thank you.
Hi Mark,
Thanks ever so much for your report on the Moab materials. Those books you show are gorgeous. And thanks for the tips on truing-up the margins. To be remembered for the next time!
-
MarkFarber: I would just like to repeat what others have said, your book binding is very impressive and I would be very interested in seeing how you put it together, if you have any leads or links to show us... Just beautiful !
Mike
-
Answering my own question about a natural white duo, I called Paper Spectrum in Leicester (UK) and they can get to order a 220gsm double-sided version of the paper I wanted (Antique Fine Art 210) at a perfectly reasonable price. They say - as somebody said above of another paper - it is not identically smooth on both sides - but coated both sides. So three cheers for a local paper supplier.
-
Answering my own question about a natural white duo, I called Paper Spectrum in Leicester (UK) and they can get to order a 220gsm double-sided version of the paper I wanted (Antique Fine Art 210) at a perfectly reasonable price. They say - as somebody said above of another paper - it is not identically smooth on both sides - but coated both sides. So three cheers for a local paper supplier.
An advice; Next to the PhotoRag Book and Album D.S. 220gsm 100% Cotton there is another (often relabeled) paper in that weight class 200-210-220 gsm either single side coated or dual side (sheets) coated. Slightly texturised compared to the PhotoRag B&A. It is an Alpha Cellulose based paper at best with an excellent coating and no or little OBA content. But in my experience some insects like to eat their way on it for unknown reasons, best guess; a starch in the coating. Have not seen other inkjet papers as tasty for insects so far. Less expensive than the PhotoRag B&A dual sided. I have used it for posters and proof prints so no real harm done for me. Innovaart was the first with it here on the market; IFA024 and IFA025. Hahnemühle + Harman followed and so did others. My gut feeling is that Felix Schoeller is the manufacturer of the mammoth rolls. Attached is a screengrab of the spectral plots. Cyan one is the PhotoRag, the rest is that Felix Schoeller's product which probably is also the source of the alternative UK papers mentioned here on this thread page. I could measure them to be sure but for that I need paper samples.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
-
Dank u wel Ernst
It seems highly likely that the paper that Paper Spectrum has sourced is the Schoeller. I think I will live with the insect risk for this project as that paper's good features really do suit the subject, but I will be warned for future work.
David