Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Lust4Life on January 29, 2017, 05:09:24 pm
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I am finally going to set myself up as an photographer of architecture, both commercial and high end residential/real estate, interior and exterior. My passion for Landscape work is never going to assist me in paying the bills.
Given: I've shot many iterations of gear in my tenure on the planet, both DSLR and MF, film and digital. I've always been a Hasselblad shooter from way back in the dark ages of film and the Wista 4x5 was another favorite (loved the tilt, shift, etc and I used it expensively until I finally gave it up when I sold my Howtek HiResolve drum scanner).
I currently have the H5D 50c WiFi with the 28 and 100 lenses. I have pondering adding the HTS 1.5 but I feel that will not give me the level of control and perfection I seek to compete with the existing photographers currently in my market area (Raleigh Triangle, NC). BUT I AM OPEN TO BEING TOLD THAT WHAT I HAVE WITH THE HTS added IS QUITE ADEQUATE TO START MY NEW VENTURE WITH! I'll listen to all advice.
I even had the Cambo mated to digital years ago, but did not care for it at the time.
Thus, function of this thread: Define the top two candidates of camera body and two, max three lenses for the highest level of architectural photography that can be achieved keeping the array to 60MP or less, but as prices drop capable of moving the higher MP arrays. Why do I say "top two", because one I expect to be "cost no object" and the other will be "real world".
So folks, here is what I'm currently pondering:
Arca Swiss
RM3DI body, E-cloud module
Alpa
12 STC/Shift capable Travel Compact
12 WA & SWA /Wide Angle and Shift Wide Angle
Cambo
Wide RS-1200
Sinar
IanTec and the arTec
All constructive input is greatly appreciate BUT I ask that you speak of gear you ACTUALLY OWN or have rented and used personally. This is remove the element of "vapor opinions" from the equation.
Please include all accessories to the camera body that you have found to be essential in your work with your respective unit; i.e. Rotating Back, Viewfinder, etc.
I am reluctant to ask for comments on what digital back to mate the body. I would like to save that for a subsequent thread if you don't mind. Just the Technical camera and a two, no more than three, great lenses.
Thanks in advance to all that help point me in the new direction.
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I went through a thorough process in deciding which camera platform to purchase about 5 years ago and I settled on the Arca Swiss.
The reasons for this were as follows:
-I found it to be the most compact of the options while still allowing for a limited amount of tilt or swing.
-The focusing helicoid and tilt/swing functions are built into the body which means you do not need to purchase those every time you have a lens mounted. This lowered the price of purchasing a new lens by about $1000-$1900 depending on the corresponding body and whether or not you wanted tilt/swing.
-The helicoid is larger and more precise, which is a plus when dealing with wide angle lenses that have much lower tolerances in regards to obtaining critical focus.
-The lens mount was designed to work with or without a sliding back without requiring the need to send the lens back to get remounted.
-The additional spacers supplied with the lenses to compensate when not using a sliding back could be stacked on top of each other allowing for table top and macro photography, so long as you had at least two lenses. (Not nearly as good as using a bellows camera, but better then the other systems.)
-The less complicated lens mount design allowed for you to easily swap out a shutter on location if the one on the lens went down. (I have needed to do this once so far; takes about 5 minutes if you carry a spanner wrench with you.)
-Only the back of the camera shifted. For the Alpa, you need to buy an extremely over priced adapter for this.
-Any Acra Swiss body will mount onto any Arca Swiss tripod head without the need for a plate, so you don't need to worry about always having one.
-Arca Swiss makes a bellows camera, their M Line; Apla and Cambo do not.
-The RM3Di's back mount is the same as the bellows mount on the M Line, which means you could use the RM3Di as the front standard on their M Line cameras.
-Any lens mounted for the R line can be used on the M line with a simple bayonet adapter plate.
Insofar as lenses, I use the SK 35mm, Rodie 55mm, and the Rodie 90mm (previous version that does not require the extra box, still super sharp by today's standards).
The SK 35mm does suffer from lens cast on the 60mm backs, but with the current version of C1, you can get 14mm of shift. With additional work, you can get up to 18/20mm of shift, but this will require additional layers in post to bring back loss of color saturation and correct magenta hues that the LCC did not fully remove.
The Rodie 32mm is your best bet for future proofing the system, however it is a $10K lens. It also has an unique distortion that can be removed in C1, however you need to keep track of the shift for each image. Not a big deal when you are shooting tethered, but a pain when you are not, like with exteriors. Also, the front half of the lens is so heavy, it is adviced not to walk around or swing the camera with the lens mounted because this could torque the shutter.
I do use a sliding back and prefer this over live view or the view finder. Live view sucks and eats up batter life; the varo-finder is well thought but you are not actually seeing your true frame. I use a Kapture Group sliding back, which is smaller and lighter than the Arca Rota-Slide, however KG is no longer in business. The Rota-Slide would be great for studio use, and it is better made.
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Joe,
A couple of points regarding accuracy:
Alpa - tilt adapters are required, shift is built in to the STC and Max (and SWA). You had shift ...
Bellows - I was very surprised to read that Cambo don't have a bellows solution. Extremely surprised in fact because I use the Cambo Actus DB with my IQ3100 and there are a couple of variants available for just 35mm (Actus) and also as a rail camera (Actus XL).
If you want the most cost effective solution with all movements, and you have a back or body with live view, I would challenge you to beat the Cambo Actus. The best part is that all lenses can be bought without mounts and fitted to lens boards. I have tilt, swing, rise & fall and rear shift with the Actus DB.
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Joe, thank you for your input. I checked out your web site and the proof that the system does the job was seen in your images.
What back have you mated the Arca to?
Jack
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Joe,
A couple of points regarding accuracy:
Alpa - tilt adapters are required, shift is built in to the STC and Max (and SWA). You had shift ...
Bellows - I was very surprised to read that Cambo don't have a bellows solution. Extremely surprised in fact because I use the Cambo Actus DB with my IQ3100 and there are a couple of variants available for just 35mm (Actus) and also as a rail camera (Actus XL).
If you want the most cost effective solution with all movements, and you have a back or body with live view, I would challenge you to beat the Cambo Actus. The best part is that all lenses can be bought without mounts and fitted to lens boards. I have tilt, swing, rise & fall and rear shift with the Actus DB.
Forgot about the Actus; I was thinking about when I bought my system and I don't think that was out yet.
However the Actus does not look too stable. I have never used it, but for a MFB, I am not sure if I would trust it. Perhaps I have only seen the one designed for the Sonys. Could be like the Arca Swiss Universalis; a good deal less stable then the M Line 2.
Insofar as the Alpa, yes shift is built in. But (I am can't remember which) either rise/fall or lateral shift under normal use is on the front, so you would be moving the lens. Alpa sells an L shaped bracket that screws into the front lens plate that allows just the back to be moved. I look at this as a design flaw; the back should have been designed to shift only, espeically for that money.
With that said, I still think the Acra Swiss system is much better integrated. All the little things really come together.
Also, I was looking for the most compact system and a bellows camera just seems too much. I use a Mindshift 26L backpack and current have in it my RM3Di, a sliding back, IQ260, three lens mounted for the R system, an XF camera body with a prism VF, P1 55mm LS lens, 7 different filters, a lee filter system and I will probably be able to fit one more tech camera lens in there when I get it.
I challenge you to do that with a bellows camera. (I really hate hard cases and large cases.)
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Joe, thank you for your input. I checked out your web site and the proof that the system does the job was seen in your images.
What back have you mated the Arca to?
Jack
I was using a P45+ up until about two months ago, then switched to the IQ260.
I don't think any of the 80 or 100 MP backs work well with any of the tech camera lenses, especially the 100 MP ones. Too much lens cast IMO.
I am hoping the technology in the current Sony AII will make its way into the full frame MF (with the back illuminated pixels). Only then would I consider anything higher in resolution.
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I was using a P45+ up until about two months ago, then switched to the IQ260.
I don't think any of the 80 or 100 MP backs work well with any of the tech camera lenses, especially the 100 MP ones. Too much lens cast IMO.
I am hoping the technology in the current Sony AII will make its way into the full frame MF (with the back illuminated pixels). Only then would I consider anything higher in resolution.
The P45+! That was one of my favorite backs that I used on a 500cm Hasselblad decades ago with T* lenses and the waste level viewfinder! One of my all time favorite images was taken with it. Two rows of 5 across, f stopped of 3 deep each. But I got the image I wanted!! It's Glen at High Shoals, GA on my web site under Panorama tab.
I could easily go with a P45+ again for the start of this project, but would probably be seduced by the 60MP if I let cost of entry not bother me. We will see.
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The P45+! That was one of my favorite backs that I used on a 500cm Hasselblad decades ago with T* lenses and the waste level viewfinder! One of my all time favorite images was taken with it. Two rows of 5 across, f stopped of 3 deep each. But I got the image I wanted!! It's Glen at High Shoals, GA on my web site under Panorama tab.
I could easily go with a P45+ again for the start of this project, but would probably be seduced by the 60MP if I let cost of entry not bother me. We will see.
The P45+ was ideal for me, however the screen just was too much of a pain to deal with. If I only shot interiors, I probably would not have changed.
The wide angle lenses flare really easily and it was just too difficult to notice a flare from a passing cloud, which tend to be broad and soft; not something you can really notice on those screens. The screen of the 260 was worth the price I paid, plus the wireless connectivity to iPad will help even more.
Also, I have an on going project that I need to shoot hand held and the DF+ is horrible. The XF system is very nice, and you can only use the IQ backs on it.
Of course the trade off was a little more lens cast and (really) long exposures that are not as good.
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With all due respect Joe that's a lot of supposition about gear that you don't use ...
Bellows are bellows - you can't change that aspect ... with the Actus they have a strong magnetic mount. The camera body is precision CNC manufactured magnesium / alloy and all standards are rigid and strong. The rail is as strong as any solid metal rail period. There is no play in movements.
Anyway, if the OP wants a technical pancake camera then any of the Alpa, Arca or Cambo offerings will do the job. It's just a question of which features and conveniences are required and cost. They are all superbly built.
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Graham, okay lets just leave it at I never used one and Cambo did not have one to offer when I bought my system, which is why I did not think of it.
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Agreed, I have no skin in this game myself actually - just trying to keep things honest.
I have owned and used Alpa Max, TC and STC cameras with all the associated hardware for tilts. I have also used the arca & Cambo WRS over the years. I would agree that the arca has the benefit of all movements built into a single body without having to add tilt lenses or adapters etc. Without LV the focus is somewhat different due to the need for focus tables vs distance markings and back calibrations but at this level you're hopefully going to know what you are doing anyways ...
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Hi Jack,
I like Joe and yourself went through the process of ARCA/ALPA/Cambo decision.
I have the RM3di /32Rod / SK43 /SK60 and 90Rod (old magenta band) and find this a very versatile set of lenses. I'd potentially add the SK72 and 120 and be very happy I think.
I also have the emodule.
Joes said a lot of good points, but here is my current thinking
- I think the emodule is something you should trial before spending your money on it...mine had to go in for service 5 months ago, and I even though it's come back, I haven't used it since. I estimate a distance, look a the charts that come with each lens and dial it in. It can be awesome for dialing in detail interiors though.
- If you are used to movements with detents the RM3di doesn't have them, while the cambo and alpa do at 0/5/10 and 15mm. This is one thing I would LOVE Arca to integrate into the RM3di.
- People say these cameras are slow to work with. I disagree. You can move very nimbly and lightly with them
- The modern backs (post P45+) are infinitely more workable due to the screen on the back.
- I've got in the habit of taking a photograph of the back of my camera that shows the movements and composition along with the Arca card so I know what lens was used (see attached) I upload this directly to a project specific dropbox folder. It helps especially for the Rodenstock distortion tool in C1
To photograph architecture, I don't think you can't have a Canon or Nikon system with the 17/19 or 24 equivalents as well, so factor that in. Maybe then you'd be best with the Sony and Universalis/Actus if you wanted to go bellows camera...
Any questions, let me know.
Cheers
A
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There is also the Linhof Techno. With a stitching back it has all the movement one could want, and uses regular lenses in lens boards. But the pancakes are a bit quicker.
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Agreed, I have no skin in this game myself actually - just trying to keep things honest.
I have owned and used Alpa Max, TC and STC cameras with all the associated hardware for tilts. I have also used the arca & Cambo WRS over the years. I would agree that the arca has the benefit of all movements built into a single body without having to add tilt lenses or adapters etc. Without LV the focus is somewhat different due to the need for focus tables vs distance markings and back calibrations but at this level you're hopefully going to know what you are doing anyways ...
Disclosure: I have skin in the game, as my Arca is on sale on this forum.
One advantage of Arca is you can swap the back and you just need to find the focus factor for a given back. No physical adjustment is required. Since you are into business and if you decide to rent/borrow another back for a given job, you don't need to alter anything physically. However, that's not the case for Cambo WRS. I don't know about Alpha.
Hope this helps.
Subrata
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I am finally going to set myself up as an photographer of architecture, both commercial and high end residential/real estate, interior and exterior. My passion for Landscape work is never going to assist me in paying the bills....
...I seek to compete with the existing photographers currently in my market area (Raleigh Triangle, NC)...I'll listen to all advice.
Thanks in advance to all that help point me in the new direction.
There is no architectural project on this planet that can't be photographed absolutely beautifully with a Canon DSLR and its basic complement of lenses. And a tech camera is probably the worst system to use for real estate photography.
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We need a 'LIKE' button on this forum....maybe we don't, it'd just open a can of worms.
There is no architectural project on this planet that can't be photographed absolutely beautifully with a Canon DSLR and its basic complement of lenses. And a tech camera is probably the worst system to use for real estate photography.
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Can only support Arca on this. I won't comment on Alpa, even if I could, but as some stated I do not want to open a can of worms.
Currently have the Rm3di, Rm2d and the factum.
Use all three with my IQ180/3100.
Before that the p45 and p65.
Lenses 32/40/43/70/90 all Rodenstock
A few thoughts:
- I like all cameras for slow and very precise architecture work I feel the Rm3di is best. For traveling and landscape work I love the other twos
- have the orginal emodul and the binocular finder. Have to admit that I never used the emodul enough and will sell it soon. I just prefer a laser meter for interiors. Loved the finder with the p45 and p65. Haven't used it since as the screens of the IQ series are fantastic.
- the p65 was for me the best back in terms of resolution to shift. It's true one has to be more careful with the 80/100mp backs.
- as a side note it's amazing that I can no work with the IQ3100 back and don't need ANY cables anymore. It makes live so much easier. ( of course with the limitations the electronic shutter has)
If you have any specific questions just let me know.
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
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Interesting that Arca has the dominate following so far in this post. That is what I expected.
I'm thinking if I went the Arca path I'd keep my H5D 50c WiFi, get an external power supply and start there.
That way I'd still have my H5D for travel work and fast setup, also as a second tool when on a arch shoot.
I did check with my favorite Hassie dealer, Peter Lorber in Boca Raton and interrupted his Sunday hockey, to learn that
the X1D I have on order will not work with a tech camera. That was a disappointment.
When I started this thread I was favoring the Sinar arTek from a technical perspective BUT the cost of entry is so high, unless there was a SERIOUS advantage in arch work I am having a very difficult time considering going Sinar's way.
Is that a common deterrent to the arTek that others feel as well?
Jack
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I used the Rm3d for architecture for maybe 5 years before giving up on MFDB. It's an awesome system. The Alpa is great too, but Joe has already pointed out why I liked the Arca better. I didn't care for the Cambo.
If this is the way you want to go, then I'm sure you'll be thrilled with the system. The achille's heel for me was wide angle performance. I felt like the SK 35 was just crap on the 60mp backs. I owned the P65+ and then the IQ260. Also, that wasn't even as wide as I needed to go sometimes, so I had to resort to also carrying a dslr and the 17 ts-e.
Nowadays, as Aaron points out, the small cameras are really hard to beat.
Scroll through the front of my website, it's an even mix of files from Phase One, Sony & Red. Good luck picking out which is which.
Also, I did a write up on the Rm3d when I got mine, that may give you additional info: http://christopherbarrett.net/arca-swiss-rm3d/ (http://christopherbarrett.net/arca-swiss-rm3d/)
Good luck!
-CB
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I think CB is right on the SK 35mm.
At first I was hopeful on the quality, but I just spent this morning looking over images I captured with it for a client. I am not just not satisfied with the quality beyond 12mm of shift.
Thankfully this is one of my good and not super picky clients. But now I am rethinking my lens choices and whether or not I really want to invest in the SK 43mm.
I may decide that the 32mm and 40mm are the safer routes.
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Joe... conversely, I was really pleased with the 43, but only up to about 15mm.
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I think CB is right on the SK 35mm.
At first I was hopeful on the quality, but I just spent this morning looking over images I captured with it for a client. I am not just not satisfied with the quality beyond 12mm of shift.
Thankfully this is one of my good and not super picky clients. But now I am rethinking my lens choices and whether or not I really want to invest in the SK 43mm.
I may decide that the 32mm and 40mm are the safer routes.
Joe, interesting what you found with very close inspection - glad you discovered that rather than myself as I am the poster child for the North American Anal Retentive!! It must be as perfect as current technology will allow for me to not be dissatisfied!!
I will be curious to hear what you settle on - please keep me posted.
Jack
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Joe... conversely, I was really pleased with the 43, but only up to about 15mm.
Also, one thing that keeps on getting me about the 43mm is it is slightly less wide then what I was use to working with. The 40mm is about the same angle of view on the 260 as the 35mm was on the P45+.
For my taste, the 35mm on the 260 is too wide for most images, even interiors.
I may purchase the 40mm and keep the 35 for now as a slightly wider lens for when I need it.
Dropping $10K on the 32mm is just going to hurt too much, especially for a lens I may only use 20% of the time for interiors. So many hard decisions.
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Just for the record, if I mainly shot interiors and I did not like hiking with my tech camera, I would really consider CB's setup.
However, dealing with a bellows camera and the space that it takes up is a deal breaker for me. Like I said before, I hate large and/or hard cases and prefer to be able to pack everything into a backpack. The RM3Di allows for that.
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Just for the record, if I mainly shot interiors and I did not like hiking with my tech camera, I would really consider CB's setup.
However, dealing with a bellows camera and the space that it takes up is a deal breaker for me. Like I said before, I hate large and/or hard cases and prefer to be able to pack everything into a backpack. The RM3Di allows for that.
The capacity to have both worlds, arch and landscape, in one camera setup is essential for me. I have my Airstream to travel for both types of work and do not have any intention of stopping landscape work, I just know it will not generate the modest cash flow I want at this point in my life.
I need a camera/arsenal of gear for both of my passions.
An important factor is the ability to get excellent focus with a bright viewfinder/ground glass regardless of the environment and not requiring being tethered to my MacBook Pro in the field. Thus, the sliding back with the Hassie V viewfinder is very attractive for me unless someone knows of a better solution.
Jack
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I use the Arca RM3di with a Leaf 50 back. I was advised not to go above 60 because higher pixel counts apparently are problematic. The viewfinder is a waste of money in my experience. I use an iPhone with the Alpa app, and often just rely on LiveView.
I have the e-cloud, but have stopped using it. I find it is easy enough to dial in proper focus using LiveView at 100% and wide open aperture. For landscapes, this works fine. For closer objects, I use the distance cards provided with each lens to get to the proper area on the focus dial and then go to LiveView. I get about 90 to 120 minutes (cold weather) out of a battery this way, and I carry three or four batteries. Shot count is what really matters, and when it is warm, I find I only need one or at most two batteries to get me through a five or six hour day--maybe a 150 exposures, often involved stitched images.
The system isn't the easiest to travel with if you are using longer lenses because extension tubes are required that making packing the camera in a carry-on case that fits under the seat difficult. If you are not using longer lenses, the camera packs down rather nicely.
Be prepared to to use the LCC opaque card, which does add time to the process, but it is essential with camera movements. This will also require additional work in CaptureOne, but not a big deal.
My biggest complaint with the camera is the lenses, which I don't find to be mechanically reliable--Schneider (4) and Rodenstock (1). My 43 isn't working right now--second time. Three of the others have stopped working for awhile, and then started working. On some occasions, the shutters wouldn't close once triggered, and on others the shutters wouldn't open. This may be cold weather. Currently the other ones have been working, but I am now reluctant to photograph when it is real cold out.
Other than that, I love the camera.
If you go with the Arca, I would use screw in cables rather than the magnetic ones. People report different experiences, but in my experience, the magnets are not strong enough and occasionally pop out.
One word of caution, which the other more technically inclined can comment on or correct. As I understand it, the lenses use Copal shutters, and that company apparently isn't making those parts anymore. As I understand it, the lens companies are coming out with electronic shutters that can be retrofitted to the existing lenses. I took a quick look at that as an option--it looked expensive and complicated. So be before buying into one of these systems, I would address long-term viability. At some point the shutters will fail.
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There is no architectural project on this planet that can't be photographed absolutely beautifully with a Canon DSLR and its basic complement of lenses. And a tech camera is probably the worst system to use for real estate photography.
Truth.
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a tech camera is probably the worst system to use for real estate photography.
What about a tech camera makes it the worst system to use for real estate photography?
Just curious to understand your point of view on this.
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First of all I can’t agree more with everything that Graham has said about the Cambo Actus. I also have a DB+ version with two rails, two bellows and 7 Schneider Digitar lenses. I also have an Alpa STC and have kept three of my lenses in the Alpa mounts. The ONLY reason I keep the STC is for landscape situations where high wind conditions could exist. The STC is more stable under those conditions but only to a limit. I have had the Leaf 50 CMOS back with this camera and also an IQ180. The Leaf 50 was simple to use while the IQ180 was close to impossible. Now I shoot with a IQ3-100 which is a dream to use. I have yet to have a situation where live view hasn’t nailed focus. All I use is a Peak 4X loupe at 100% pixels and I’m there. Tilting is also a breeze with live view. The Actus system is also very light. I can pack the camera, back, batteries, loupe, three lenses of my choice and other odds and ends into a Lowe Pro flipside 300 and the whole thing weighs under 13 pounds. I consider that pretty light. I have saved thousands and thousands of dollars switching to this system instead of buying the SAME lenses in Alpa mounts. Arca isn’t much better with regards to pricing. I made a dowel with markings for all of my lenses for very quick rail setup negating the need to establish infinity with quick rail movements by checking live view. One of the posts addressed Copal shutters and their mechanical limitations. I don’t use the shutter as my back has an ES. This current technology (rolling shutter) is going to be very short lived as Global Shutters are right around the corner. Fuji will more than likely be the first since they are involved with the R&D but everyone will have that feature. I’ve toyed with buying the 32 and/or 40mm Rody’s but really don’t want to have post issues with the distortion those lenses have as compared to my Schneider 35mm. I don’t need shifting beyond 10mm so my needs are met with that lens. My other lenses can easily shift beyond 10mm.
Just adding to the mix……
Victor
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I guess the bigger question is what are you trying to accomplish that the HTS + 24mm + 35/50mm lens doesn't give you. Yes, with the 60/80 CCD's and a tech cam setup, you can get bigger images, but really, will the market pay a higher price to support the gear change? Yes, we need a better 35mm lens, but you are already more than half way to done with the -50c and the 28mm.
Swap in the X1D for lighter work, same lenses & HTS and you're just as set.
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"Swap in the X1D for lighter work, same lenses & HTS and you're just as set."
IF ONLY that was valid. In speaking to my Hassie dealer, the X1D will not accept the HTS.
Please show me that he is wrong!
Thus, with the H5D and the HTS I can get some movement and tilt for DOF but it will be marginal, but I think adequate to get me started and feel out the market here. Big issue is the weight reduction I get with a tech camera or the X1D (near 5 pounds when I plug in the lenses). The weight is an issue for me that many others don't have to contend with.
Jack
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Truth.
Agreed also. My A7r or 5DSr is what gets pulled when I'm working. My phase kit comes out for landscape work only. I can't deny that the best Phase files are ultimately a bit better than the best Sony or Canon files, but what I find is that the flexibility of the Canon/Sony setup tends to give me better work for far less effort.
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Agreed also. My A7r or 5DSr is what gets pulled when I'm working. My phase kit comes out for landscape work only. I can't deny that the best Phase files are ultimately a bit better than the best Sony or Canon files, but what I find is that the flexibility of the Canon/Sony setup tends to give me better work for far less effort.
Several years ago I bought the Canon 17mm f/4 Tilt-Shift lens and the Canon EOS 5D at 30MP.
I also had the Hasselblad H5 and wanted to get to a much lighter camera and far less expensive/less cost of depreciation over time as well.
What I found was that when I pushed the Canon files in my post processing I hit far more situations where banding occurred in an image! Great loss of many scenes I shot of clouds over the sea and in the Everglades (I was living in Naples, FL).
Thus, I took both cameras out, shot the same scene (Must admit I loved the 17 lens!) and then post processed exactly the same way. Hassie file did not band, Canon definitely did and spoiled the gradation tones of the clouds and sky.
I blamed it on 14 verse 16 bits (I know, this can be challenged but I had the files and the results) and Hassie was the clear winner.
IF Canon comes out with a 50MP back and a high bit count RAW file, I'm in, but I don't see that on the shelves right now (but I don't see the X1D either!!).
PS: If the Sony Alpha a7RII will take the Canon 17 lens I'd like to know about that. Even better if someone has pushed the RAW file and not had the banding appear then I'm in!
Jack
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Where've you been, Jack? The Sony can take just about any lens on the planet. You can use just a straight Metabones adapter for the Tilt/Shift glass, but here's my rig... the Arca Mf2 with Sony on the back and Canon 11-24 on the front. The lens is zoomed to 14mm. The camera is shifted left about 5mm. Shot below.
(http://christopherbarrett.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/11-24.jpg)
14MM and movements! This is why I went to the Sony. There's no way I could have made this shot with my Previous system.
(http://christopherbarrett.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/161105_004.jpg)
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Holy Cow!!
A good friend of mine, Clyde Butcher, has been pestering to buy the Sony and put it through the paces.
I had no idea you could mate it with the 17TS like that on a tech body!
You have my attention, but I'd need to do it on something like the Arca AR due to the weight issues I want to insulate myself from.
Guess what I look into tomorrow?
Now, I ask can you push the image in post and not have it "band" the sky and clouds???
Jack
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Holy Cow!!
A good friend of mine, Clyde Butcher, has been pestering to buy the Sony and put it through the paces.
I had no idea you could mate it with the 17TS like that on a tech body!
You have my attention, but I'd need to do it on something like the Arca AR due to the weight issues I want to insulate myself from.
Guess what I look into tomorrow?
Now, I ask can you push the image in post and not have it "band" the sky and clouds???
Jack
For light weight, use Canon lens -> Metabones adapter -> Sony body. Skip the Arca R, not applicable there. Chris is using the Arca M2 in place of the Metabones adapter to get shift with the 11-24 lens.
No problem pushing the Sony sensors hard (Sony, Nikon, Phase/Hassy CMOS).
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This is an eye opener for me. My focus for the last 3 years has not been photography due to several distractions that are now under control.
So, you are saying that I can take the Canon 17TS lens and with MetaBones mate it to the Sony. You are also saying that since what I'm using on Hassie and what Sony is using (CMOS) I can push the raw file and not see banding, at least no different what what I get with the Hassie 5D 50c?
Just looked at MetaBones - numerous flavors of adapters. If I want to give this a try, what specific adapter do I need for the Canon 17TC?
Jack
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This one...
http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4 (http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4)
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This one...
http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4 (http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4)
Thank you!
Now,any rumors with substance to them that Sony has their next iteration about to hit the shelves?
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Several years ago I bought the Canon 17mm f/4 Tilt-Shift lens and the Canon EOS 5D at 30MP.
I also had the Hasselblad H5 and wanted to get to a much lighter camera and far less expensive/less cost of depreciation over time as well.
What I found was that when I pushed the Canon files in my post processing I hit far more situations where banding occurred in an image! Great loss of many scenes I shot of clouds over the sea and in the Everglades (I was living in Naples, FL).
Thus, I took both cameras out, shot the same scene (Must admit I loved the 17 lens!) and then post processed exactly the same way. Hassie file did not band, Canon definitely did and spoiled the gradation tones of the clouds and sky.
I blamed it on 14 verse 16 bits (I know, this can be challenged but I had the files and the results) and Hassie was the clear winner.
IF Canon comes out with a 50MP back and a high bit count RAW file, I'm in, but I don't see that on the shelves right now (but I don't see the X1D either!!).
PS: If the Sony Alpha a7RII will take the Canon 17 lens I'd like to know about that. Even better if someone has pushed the RAW file and not had the banding appear then I'm in!
Jack
Chris Barrett, or anyone else here who has extensive experience using both medium and small format digital in demanding professional situations, can you speak to the banding to which Jack refers?
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Fuji GFX-50s with canon tilt shift lenses. What more in life do you need..... adapters coming soon.
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Chris Barrett, or anyone else here who has extensive experience using both medium and small format digital in demanding professional situations, can you speak to the banding to which Jack refers?
Just under two months of professional work with the Sony A7RII, so YMMV, but no banding issues with the Sony by now. On the contrary, My beloved Canon 5D2 had plenty of artifacts and noise as soon as you forced exposition up in any RAW...
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Just under two months of professional work with the Sony A7RII, so YMMV, but no banding issues with the Sony by now. On the contrary, My beloved Canon 5D2 had plenty of artifacts and noise as soon as you forced exposition up in any RAW...
Yes, well, the 5DII is ancient technology at this point. :-)
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Chris,
Did you have to alter the rear of the 11-24 at all?
Cheers.
A
Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk
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Banding:
Canon cameras like 5DII, 5DIII, 5DsR, 1DX could suffer from some banding if the shadows are lifted to a certain extend.
Since 5DIV and 1DXII, this is no longer an issue for Canon cameras, neither for Nikon 810 or Sony A7RII using (recent) Sony sensors.
Lenses for architecture and interior architecture photography:
My recommendation is retro-focus lenses with sufficient image circle.
I use and would recommend:
Canon 17f4 TSE
Canon 24f3.5 TSE
Contax 645 35f3.5 (pre-set to f11) + Mirex tilt/shift adapter (Contax 645 - Canon EF)
Hasselblad CF/CFE 50f4 FLE + Mirex tilt/shift adapter (HB CF - Canon EF)
Hasselblad CF/CFE 100f3.5 + Mirex tilt/shift adapter (HB CF - Canon EF)
Hasselblad CF/CFE 180f4 + Mirex tilt/shift adapter (HB CF - Canon EF)
They are affordable and give excellent results, w/o color cast issues.
They work perfectly with cameras w/ different sensor sizes:
36x24mm:
Canon 5DsR
Sony A7RII + Metabones or Sigma adapter
44x33mm:
Fuji GFX 50s (as soon as an adapter from Metabones or Fringer is available)
54x40mm:
Alpa FPS + IQ 180, IQ 3100 a.s.o.
+ Alpa Canon mount for Canon lenses
+ Alpa Contax 645 shift mount for Contax lenses
+ Alpa Contax 645 shift mount + Contax 645 - HB V adapter for Hasselblad CF/CFE lenses
Of course the larger the sensor, the smaller the usable amount of shift movement.
Maybe I make a chart to show the ranges of the combinations.
For my personal preference, I don't see these mini-rail cams necessary add any extra benefit, the Mirex tilt/shit adapters are small, solid and do the job.
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Banding:
Canon cameras like 5DII, 5DIII, 5DsR, 1DX could suffer from some banding if the shadows are lifted to a certain extend.
Since 5DIV and 1DXII, this is no longer an issue for Canon cameras, neither for Nikon 810 or Sony A7RII using (recent) Sony sensors.
As I read Jack's comments, it seems clear to me that he was not talking about shadow banding. He was seeing it in skies. I am assuming he is talking about daytime skies. If very dark twilight or night skies, I suppose shadow banding could be an issue sometimes. However, shadow banding is possible with any digital format, if you try to raise the level of the shadow tones enough, though this will vary with the technology and format.
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For my personal preference, I don't see these mini-rail cams necessary out any extra benefit, the Mirex tilt/shit adapters are small, solid and do the job.
I agree. The mini-rail-cameras like the Actus would introduce some unnecessary handling issues with the bellows for my architecture work (i usually don't need tilt). But at the moment they are a good option that offer geared shifts (the Mirex does not).
I will probably buy a Fuji GFX if it is possible to adapt Canon and Contax 645 lenses. But I would prefer something like a mini-view-cam. Imagine a Cambo Wide RS, but smaller so it does not interfere with the grips of the Fuji GFX. With the luxury of geared shifts (seperate for horizontal and vertical shifts). That would be great.
Regards -
Marc
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I should have a look at the new 19mm PCE lens Nikon has made.
It is probably one of the best wide angle lenses.
Do not know if there are adapters making it work on MF or Sony...
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While I find it really interesting to hear what other's shoot with, why don't you go shoot and see what you need? I always look at gear as solving a problem, and you don't know what the problem is until you shoot... As you can see, everyone has a different gear list because we all have a different way of working, and different problems we have to solve.
I use an actus with canon TS lenses, contax 35 pc, pentax 645, and more frequently now the canon 16-35 f4. Before just diving in to MF, understand your potential clients needs, expectations, and budgets. For years I shot with a aptus backs on an alpa max.
I'm not sure what you're after, or your experience, but you can build a great portfolio with an iphone, which may not be enough for paying work of course, although who knows!
I'm curious how you can justify a mf back for real estate photography...
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I understand your logic BUT you are unfortunately (some might say fortunately) unfamiliar with me and my personality.
When I compete, as in the marketplace for architectural photography, I assess my competition and then try to find a way to get a leg up on them. Of course, mastering and dominating the market and tools takes practice, but I have many years of using a 4x5 in numerous venues. As to digital, my knowledge goes back to working on the Zygote of all digital: Eikonix, then Hasselblad digital, Leaf, etc.
I do not want to enter the market here with just good enough gear, I want exceptional. Now price does not always define exceptional BUT what I have been seeking in this thread is defining just what some of the very top Architectural photographers in this land are finding they get their best results with. Everyone that has posted a comment that I felt showed deep knowledge, I have explored their web site and been quite impressed with several!
No, I will not initially have their eye and talent, but I guarantee you it won't take me long!
Thus, I plan to stick to the technical camera because my favorite days of shooting where when I hauled my Wista 45DX Rosewood around the world. Add to that, I like the physics of what I feel separates the technical camera from the DSLR, both in DMax, perspective control and lenses. Yes, takes more time to get composed, but I'm doing this for the FUN of it! I'll eat regardless of how much money I make doing it, this is my final career and I want to be among the very best within 3 years!
Hope that answers your question, but I do appreciate your perspective, but after sleeping on it, it's not for me.
Jack
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Hi Jack. Before photography, my employers were two of the largest arch/design firms in the world with budgets to hire anyone they liked and a premium value placed upon the results. Super high rise architecture, high end corporate offices, resort hotels, healthcare, the works.
We had a list of photographers globally that we used, with detailed notes on shooting style, rates, deliverables, work examples etc. There wasn't a field for equipment. Quite simply, the lead designers and architects didn't care about this but they paid intense attention to portfolio and the character and subject knowledge of the photographer. Post production quality was still seen as vital though. For corporate architecture/interiors shoots, there is often a need to move far faster and with more flexibility than we often anticipate as timescales are compressed and conditions less than ideal, and this is when the smaller cameras are magical. Your ability to deliver unexpected shots and a creative design narrative will convince top architects far more than absolute pixel quality (think about the most common printed uses for these photos, it's rarely giant prints).
One of those firms I worked for hired people such as Hedrich Blessing, Tim Griffith, Benny Chan, Chris Barrett, Hufton and Crow. Chris shoots interiors at the very highest level with a Sony, H&C (who work fast, mobile and reactively) shoot top architecture with Canon, and I'm sure their equipment choices are because they feel it's the best possible fit for the work they're doing. And it may just save you enough to buy a new car. Just my thoughts.
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Hi Jack. Before photography, my employers were two of the largest arch/design firms in the world with budgets to hire anyone they liked and a premium value placed upon the results. Super high rise architecture, high end corporate offices, resort hotels, healthcare, the works.
We had a list of photographers globally that we used, with detailed notes on shooting style, rates, deliverables, work examples etc. There wasn't a field for equipment. Quite simply, the lead designers and architects didn't care about this but they paid intense attention to portfolio and the character and subject knowledge of the photographer. Post production quality was still seen as vital though. For corporate architecture/interiors shoots, there is often a need to move far faster and with more flexibility than we often anticipate as timescales are compressed and conditions less than ideal, and this is when the smaller cameras are magical. Your ability to deliver unexpected shots and a creative design narrative will convince top architects far more than absolute pixel quality (think about the most common printed uses for these photos, it's rarely giant prints).
One of those firms I worked for hired people such as Hedrich Blessing, Tim Griffith, Benny Chan, Chris Barrett, Hufton and Crow. Chris shoots interiors at the very highest level with a Sony, H&C (who work fast, mobile and reactively) shoot top architecture with Canon, and I'm sure their equipment choices are because they feel it's the best possible fit for the work they're doing. And it may just save you enough to buy a new car. Just my thoughts.
Tim Griffith also uses small format (Sony) equipment in addition to medium format. And Scott Frances uses Canon. I think we could go on and on about top APs who use small format equipment. However, Jack says he wants the best technical quality for his own needs and this is apparently not an economic or workflow consideration for him. That said, I think you have made the point very well that using medium format will not make him more competitive in the marketplace. What will do that is a high level of talent and photographic and business skills.
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I understand your logic BUT you are unfortunately (some might say fortunately) unfamiliar with me and my personality.
When I compete, as in the marketplace for architectural photography, I assess my competition and then try to find a way to get a leg up on them. Of course, mastering and dominating the market and tools takes practice, but I have many years of using a 4x5 in numerous venues. As to digital, my knowledge goes back to working on the Zygote of all digital: Eikonix, then Hasselblad digital, Leaf, etc.
I do not want to enter the market here with just good enough gear, I want exceptional. Now price does not always define exceptional BUT what I have been seeking in this thread is defining just what some of the very top Architectural photographers in this land are finding they get their best results with. Everyone that has posted a comment that I felt showed deep knowledge, I have explored their web site and been quite impressed with several!
No, I will not initially have their eye and talent, but I guarantee you it won't take me long!
Thus, I plan to stick to the technical camera because my favorite days of shooting where when I hauled my Wista 45DX Rosewood around the world. Add to that, I like the physics of what I feel separates the technical camera from the DSLR, both in DMax, perspective control and lenses. Yes, takes more time to get composed, but I'm doing this for the FUN of it! I'll eat regardless of how much money I make doing it, this is my final career and I want to be among the very best within 3 years!
Hope that answers your question, but I do appreciate your perspective, but after sleeping on it, it's not for me.
Jack
If you are making a living then I'd agree with the others that the 35mm format is the way to go (Sony A7R-II with Canon 11-24mm lens, particularly given that you can shift with the appropriate adapter). If you enjoy the pride of owning exotic cameras then you could go for the traditional technical cameras.
DSLR lens without shift with keystone correction, vs. technical camera lens with shift (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/59096-technical-camera-obsolete-keystone-correction-vs-shift.html)
17TSE+5DSR vs 23HR + IQ250 (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/59096-technical-camera-obsolete-keystone-correction-vs-shift.html#post699417)
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Hi Jack,
The Fujifilm GFX would be usable as a digital back. It has both FP and electronic shutter variants, FP, EFCS and ES. A large format mounting plate has been announced by Fujifilm. The GFX also mounts HC lenses, probably.
Best regards
Erik
Interesting that Arca has the dominate following so far in this post. That is what I expected.
I'm thinking if I went the Arca path I'd keep my H5D 50c WiFi, get an external power supply and start there.
That way I'd still have my H5D for travel work and fast setup, also as a second tool when on a arch shoot.
I did check with my favorite Hassie dealer, Peter Lorber in Boca Raton and interrupted his Sunday hockey, to learn that
the X1D I have on order will not work with a tech camera. That was a disappointment.
When I started this thread I was favoring the Sinar arTek from a technical perspective BUT the cost of entry is so high, unless there was a SERIOUS advantage in arch work I am having a very difficult time considering going Sinar's way.
Is that a common deterrent to the arTek that others feel as well?
Jack
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Tim Griffith also uses small format (Sony) equipment in addition to medium format. And Scott Frances uses Canon. I think we could go on and on about top APs who use small format equipment. However, Jack says he wants the best technical quality for his own needs and this is apparently not an economic or workflow consideration for him. That said, I think you have made the point very well that using medium format will not make him more competitive in the marketplace. What will do that is a high level of talent and photographic and business skills.
Perfectly said, and you saved me from having to write what I hoped was obvious when I started this thread. Thank you David!
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Not to cut off my nose to spite my face, I have been exploring the DSLR logic with the Sony Alpha 7Rii.
Found an awful lot of very positive reviews on it, and an old buddy of mine has been shooting it for landscape since it came out
with he Canon TC lenses and loves it..
So, I placed an order with B&H and late last night UPS delivered:
Sony Alpha 7Rii, Nikkor 19mm Tilt/Shift and the Fotodiox adapter that both their sales and technical personnel said would work.
Impressions:
Wow, opened the Alpha box and first impression was amazed by it's size - TINY compared to what I lug around with the H5D 50 WiFi.
Nikkor lens looked great.
Charged up a battery, mounted all great AND ........... Fotodiox will not work with Nikkor 19! (had this confirmed with another post earlier this morning here on LL)
BUT, I must admit to liking the feel of the Alpha, and the GUI I actually prefer to the Hassie.
So, will return the Nikkor 19 and bring in other Sony lenses to test this puppy out.
Now, lenses I'm thinking of bringing in for test, and keep if the test gives me enough quality to satisfy the Arch. marketplace (I know, I'm just rethinking my prior stand on this. Go for 95% of the market place demand and just enjoy the journey.)
IF I start with the following, and then add the Nikkor 19 when an adapter becomes available that is excellent quality, if not, add the Canon 17TC:
Zeiss Loxia 21mm f/2.8 Lens for Sony E Mount
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1189220-REG/zeiss_2131_999_loxia_21mm_f_2_8_lens.html
Sony Sonnar T* FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Lens
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008124-REG/sony_sel55f18z_sonnar_t_fe_55mm.html
Zeiss Loxia 85mm f/2.4 Lens for Sony E Mount
Seems I'd have a decent arsenal for landscape and Architectural work.
Thoughts from those that shoot the "little cameras" for arch work would be appreciated.
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For arch, the 17 & 24 TS-e's are pretty much prerequisite. And interestingly, Sigma's art series has been kicking butt. I use a re-housed 18-35 1.8 on my Red and it's stellar.
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-art-lens-awarded-highest-score-ever-dxomark/ (https://petapixel.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-art-lens-awarded-highest-score-ever-dxomark/)
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Hi,
I did a high luminance range test involving some of my shooting gear, Sony A7rII, P45+ and also the Sony Alpha 900 thrown in, as it is contemporary with the P45+.
Here is what I published: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58984278
And here is the raw data: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58984278
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
I did a high luminance range test involving some of my shooting gear, Sony A7rII, P45+ and also the Sony Alpha 900 thrown in, as it is contemporary with the P45+.
Here is what I published: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58984278
And here is the raw data: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58984278
Best regards
Erik
Hello Erik,
Clear winner in that test. You mentioned Kodak array, that is the vintage of where I got my introduction to digital: Eikonic, which Kodak bought to get the technology.
A few decades back.
I must admit, though the adapter to mate the Nikkor 19 T/S lens to the R7ii did not allow me to adjust, I did what any frustrated chap would do and said screw it, I'll just run my first impression test with the lens wide open. Looked at the images last night - "Oh sxxx, that's much better than I expected from this toy" (I'm still trying to take the body seriously due to how tiny it is compare to my H5D 50c WiFi!) So then I did MY test, flip the file to B&W in CS6, then run the color channel sliders to the extremes and watch the banding occur!
"Hmmm, it's not banding/blocking out cause it can't build a good ramp!"
"Now, that I like!"
I'm going out today IF the weather breaks with the tripod and do this again and re-do the initial little test.
Conclusion: I did not expect to like what I would get considering the lens was wide open, it's not a 16 bit file, etc.
But I really did, however, it could be just the "first date" syndrome so I will test it again and if I still like, order several working lenses today from B&H.
I like primes for my work so will spend the day deciding what 3 lenses will become the foundation of my Sony system should I accept it.
Will be spending a lot to time at DXOMark today!
Best to you,
Jack
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Hi Jack,
Two things to keep in mind with the Sony:
- Any multiple exposure mode sets it 12 bit mode.
- Lot of other modes also set it in 12 bit mode.
You may also prefer to use it in uncompressed raw mode.
Best regards
Erik
Hello Erik,
Clear winner in that test. You mentioned Kodak array, that is the vintage of where I got my introduction to digital: Eikonic, which Kodak bought to get the technology.
A few decades back.
I must admit, though the adapter to mate the Nikkor 19 T/S lens to the R7ii did not allow me to adjust, I did what any frustrated chap would do and said screw it, I'll just run my first impression test with the lens wide open. Looked at the images last night - "Oh sxxx, that's much better than I expected from this toy" (I'm still trying to take the body seriously due to how tiny it is compare to my H5D 50c WiFi!) So then I did MY test, flip the file to B&W in CS6, then run the color channel sliders to the extremes and watch the banding occur!
"Hmmm, it's not banding/blocking out cause it can't build a good ramp!"
"Now, that I like!"
I'm going out today IF the weather breaks with the tripod and do this again and re-do the initial little test.
Conclusion: I did not expect to like what I would get considering the lens was wide open, it's not a 16 bit file, etc.
But I really did, however, it could be just the "first date" syndrome so I will test it again and if I still like, order several working lenses today from B&H.
I like primes for my work so will spend the day deciding what 3 lenses will become the foundation of my Sony system should I accept it.
Will be spending a lot to time at DXOMark today!
Best to you,
Jack
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Hi Jack,
Two things to keep in mind with the Sony:
- Any multiple exposure mode sets it 12 bit mode.
- Lot of other modes also set it in 12 bit mode.
You may also prefer to use it in uncompressed raw mode.
Best regards
Erik
That is concerning!
I always shoot RAW uncompressed, but flipping to 12 bit? No way.
So, I need to find a list of how to prevent that from happening.
Unless doing street photography, I always shoot in Manual and use my Sekonic to define my
exposure.
I do like HDR for high contrast scenes and prefer a camera that will automatically run that
for me BUT I can do it manually IF that is how to keep it from flipping to 12 bit.
I need to learn more about this issue - thanks for letting me know Erik!
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Hi,
I have found this description in "the Friedman book":
"It should be noted that there’s no menu item to turn this feature on or off -- the A7r II goes into 14-bit mode automatically when you’re shooting RAW in single-shot mode and goes back to 12-bit in any other drive mode, or when shutter speed is set to BULB, or Long Exposure Noise Reduction is employed."
It also works in 12-bit mode with silent shutter. EFCS is 14 bits.
Check this: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163 and this: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a7ii-12-bit-modes-effect-on-shadows/
I would recommend using RawDigger to learn more about what the camera puts in the raw files: https://www.rawdigger.com
Best regards
Erik
That is concerning!
I always shoot RAW uncompressed, but flipping to 12 bit? No way.
So, I need to find a list of how to prevent that from happening.
Unless doing street photography, I always shoot in Manual and use my Sekonic to define my
exposure.
I do like HDR for high contrast scenes and prefer a camera that will automatically run that
for me BUT I can do it manually IF that is how to keep it from flipping to 12 bit.
I need to learn more about this issue - thanks for letting me know Erik!
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WOW! I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!
As always Erik, Thanks for your help!
I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!
Jack
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Hi Jack,
Here is a bunch of 24/3.5 TSE LII shots on the A7rII: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Technical/Canon-24-TSE-LII/
And here is a bunch shot with 16-35/4 mounted on the HCam Master TSII: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Technical/16-354l-and-Master-TS/
That day I decided to use the A7rII with 16-35/4 on the HCam Master TS. That means fixed aperture, probably f/11. I was still shooting other pictures with my backup camera. The way to stop down the Canon lenses is to set aperture and shoot with lenscap on. Than remove the lens during exposure, so it stays stopped down.
To keep things simple, I mostly use the 24/3.5 for shift work and use a Contax zoom with manual aperture for tilts.
Using an MF zoom with manual aperture on the HCam may be an interesting option.
Regarding the HCam Master TSII, this page gives some info: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/57632-few-lenses-i-can-put-sony-a7rii.html
Mechanically +/- 15 mm shift and 10 degree tilt. Lens rotates 360 degrees. With movements, lens is fixed and camera moves. Movements have no gears. Peaking is very useful to find focus plane. Downside is that there is no control for aperture.
Best regards
Erik
WOW! I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!
As always Erik, Thanks for your help!
I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!
Jack
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I use the HCam Master TS too and find the 24 TS to be far sharper than the 16-35/4 with large shifts, but otherwise the zoom is exceptional. 5mm is often enough for regular interiors for me and it's great in this range, so makes an ideal lens for hotel rooms (tethered, using lens correction for distortion). I still use the HCam adapter with the 17/24 TS's as it extends shift range further. It's not so sharp at the extended extremes but if this is sky then it really doesn't matter, so is a great addition for large scale architecture. To change aperture, I use a second Sony camera with metabones adapter, but in practice rarely change it from f11. Being able to shift the camera instead of the lens also helps with stitching. In short, the HCam adaptor is a superb addition to an A7RII used for architecture.
Incidentally, I wonder how the 16-35/4 will fare on the new GFX, it looks as though it could function well in the 20-35 range. Has anyone tried it on a MFDB?
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Hi,
An interesting side of of the HCam is that it allows something like +/- 12 mm shift with MFD lenses. The lens is fixed and the camera body is moved so it is absolutely parallax free. So you can combine three 24x36 mm shots into a 48x36 mm shot that has around 80 MP on the A7rII.
I had three different adapters for MFD on the HCam Master II
- A Photodiox adapter that was essentially useless because of internal reflections.
- A Novoflex adapter for Hasselblad lenses that worked great.
- A Kipon adapter for Pentax 67 that is well made but also has problems with internal reflections.
Since that time I got myself some zooms with manual aperture for tilt work, Contax 28-85/3.3-4 and 35-135/3.3-4.5. So, the MFD lenses and adapters just collect dust. The 24/3.5 TSE LII is what I mostly use for architecture, with the 16-35/4 zoom added in when needed.
Best regards
Erik
I use the HCam Master TS too and find the 24 TS to be far sharper than the 16-35/4 with large shifts, but otherwise the zoom is exceptional. 5mm is often enough for regular interiors for me and it's great in this range, so makes an ideal lens for hotel rooms (tethered, using lens correction for distortion). I still use the HCam adapter with the 17/24 TS's as it extends shift range further. It's not so sharp at the extended extremes but if this is sky then it really doesn't matter, so is a great addition for large scale architecture. To change aperture, I use a second Sony camera with metabones adapter, but in practice rarely change it from f11. Being able to shift the camera instead of the lens also helps with stitching. In short, the HCam adaptor is a superb addition to an A7RII used for architecture.
Incidentally, I wonder how the 16-35/4 will fare on the new GFX, it looks as though it could function well in the 20-35 range. Has anyone tried it on a MFDB?
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I'm considering the new dual shift version of the H cam, has anyone experienced internal reflection flare like with Fotodiox or older Metabones adapters?
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Hi,
I have not observed flare on the HCam Master TSII when used with the Novoflex V-mount adapter. I have seen flare with the Hasselblad Distagon 40/4 using a Photodiox adapter and with the Pentax 67 45/4 using the Kipon P67 to Canon mount adapter. Using the back end of the Novoflex with the fron end of the Kipon mostly eliminated that problem.
So, I would go with Novoflex adapters.
Best regards
Erik
I'm considering the new dual shift version of the H cam, has anyone experienced internal reflection flare like with Fotodiox or older Metabones adapters?
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Eric,
I would be attaching Canon lenses directly to the H cam and the H cam attached to a A7rII. I'm not talking about lens flare from a hard light hitting the lens but internal reflections from the lens with a large image circle when light bounces around inside of the H cam adapter, has anyone seen flare of this kind from this set up like I did initially with adapters on the A7rII before they were flocked?
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Hi,
I have a non flocked HCam Master TSII and I have not seen issues with my Canon lenses.
Best regards
Erik
Eric,
I would be attaching Canon lenses directly to the H cam and the H cam attached to a A7rII. I'm not talking about lens flare from a hard light hitting the lens but internal reflections from the lens with a large image circle when light bounces around inside of the H cam adapter, has anyone seen flare of this kind from this set up like I did initially with adapters on the A7rII before they were flocked?
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Do you shoot with the 17 and 24 TSE? Is the TS II the one with duel shifts?
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Hi,
My experience i with the 24/3.5 TSE LII. But I seldom use that lens on the HCam Master TSII.
The HCam Master TSII is not the one with dual shifts. It allows +15/-15 mm shift in one direction and +10 degree tilt in the orthogonal direction.
Usable shift is mostly more like +12/-12 mm and it is limited by internal baffles mostly.
The dual shift camera is called HDS.
It is presented here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/59669-hcam-dual-shift-hds-new-photokina-2016-a.html
Best regards
Erik
Do you shoot with the 17 and 24 TSE? Is the TS II the one with duel shifts?
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Jack,
The other thing to look out for with the a7rII is the EFC mode has a shutter speed limit on the high end somewhere around 1/1200 of a second. I can't remember exactly where. Here is an image @ 1/2500.
Dave
WOW! I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!
As always Erik, Thanks for your help!
I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!
Jack
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Thanks Dave, and a beautiful desolate scene!
Today I ordered a book from Amazon on the 7Rii - will be here Thursday afternoon so it will become this weekends mission to study it.
Jack
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Dave,
Thanks for the info! I have not observed the issue myself, but I seldom shoot fast exposure times. I did some tests once, but not seen the issue.
The Fuji GFX goes from ECFS to FP at 1/1250s. Those guys know what they are doing… :-)
Best regards
Erik
Jack,
The other thing to look out for with the a7rII is the EFC mode has a shutter speed limit on the high end somewhere around 1/1200 of a second. I can't remember exactly where. Here is an image @ 1/2500.
Dave
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Hi,
I have found this description in "the Friedman book":
"It should be noted that there’s no menu item to turn this feature on or off -- the A7r II goes into 14-bit mode automatically when you’re shooting RAW in single-shot mode and goes back to 12-bit in any other drive mode, or when shutter speed is set to BULB, or Long Exposure Noise Reduction is employed."
It also works in 12-bit mode with silent shutter. EFCS is 14 bits.
Check this: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163 and this: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a7ii-12-bit-modes-effect-on-shadows/
I would recommend using RawDigger to learn more about what the camera puts in the raw files: https://www.rawdigger.com
Best regards
Erik
Okay, IMHO another reason I should avoid this camera.
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Hello Jack,
I have used the Arca Swiss 6x9 with orbix and the Actus. For the price, the Arca 6x9 can't be beat. It has tremendous versatility in terms of movements, accessories, portability, and cost of lens and accessories. You must have the orbix geared tilt, though, to make it work well with digital backs, otherwise it is too imprecise to focus when tilting the front lens.
I thought the Actus was a very nicely made camera, and I had no worries about attaching a digital back and larger lens. I did find it more fussy than the Arca though. I am also not someone who finds geared rise and/or shift on a back to be a real advantage--it feels great to use but doesn't give me any more capabilities. The problem I had with the Actus, and the reason I sold it, is that there is something off with the front tilt. When you set the foreground focus then tilt the lens for the distant focus, the foreground goes out of focus again, and it is worse with wider lens. This doesn't happen on the Arca. And, although the Actus front and rear standards are smaller, the Arca packs into a smaller, self-contained package with the bellows, a lens, and digital back attached.
I have use a 45mm and longer lens extensively but don't have much experience using a 35mm or 28mm on either of these camera. I don't know if a technical camera offers an advantage in this respect.
I have used an Aptus 65, Aptus 56, and now a Credo 50 on my Arca 6x9. I would highly recommend a live view back. They do eat batteries, but, for me, there is no substitute for confirming focus at 100%. I also find it a tremendous advantage composing an image on a live view back as opposed to on a ground glass. (I used the Bill Maxwell screens for years.) It only takes a couple finger strokes to go in and out of live view, and I like keeping the back attached to the camera at all times to cut down on dust accumulation and lower the risk of damage.
Drew Harty
www.drewharty.com
www.galenestudios.com
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Okay, IMHO another reason I should avoid this camera.
I agreed with your comment, initially.
Then talked to my close buddy that has been shooting it since it came out, and pestering me to at least look at it (He just sold another single print for $30K, he's good!) and he said that as long as you keep it in 14 bit, it's great.
I also talked with a collection of realtors, and one's that work closely with Architects, and was given consistent advice to be sensitive to the need in this market of staying price competitive! Hmmm, that was so dominant in their comments that I have to give it some weight in my decision. Dang, I love the fancy tools of the trade, but I do need to start somewhere so I'll consider the Sony a7RII. The market here is dramatically different from where I lived previously, Naples, FL.
So, I decided to put aside my prejudice that loves MFD this past week and I bought in to test the following:
Alpha a7R II Mirrorless Digital Camera (Body Only)
Sonnar T* FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA Lens
Sonnar T* FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Lens
FE 85mm f/1.4 GM Lens
Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Tilt-Shift Lens with Metabones adapter
Late yesterday I had read enough of Busch's good book on the camera to be dangerous and thought I'd run my first test, the Canon TS.
Result, I have been foolish to not have looked at this camera a long time ago! Hate it when I do that, and this is not the first time in my life!
From the first lens tested, NO, it's not the H5D 50c WiFi with my 28mm lens, but it's still great and at a fraction of the cost!
The Sony and the Canon 17 are keepers. (I had also brought in the Nikkor 19 BUT a lot of research has shown there is not an adapter available yet for it that works cleanly.)
Today we will have 70 degree plus weather with mild wind here in Chapel Hill, NC.
I'll be testing the balance of the lenses.
Thought on the 14/12 bit issue - I'll avoid the settings that drop the camera into 12 bit. It's just that simple for my style of shooting.
Heck, I have only shot in Manual mode for decades with my trusty Sekonic defining my exposure - love that tool!
Yes, I'll be adding lenses focused on the Arch. interest I have!
Will define that over the next two weeks, and ask for suggestions here as well.
The 35mm I have, IF it tests well, great little light lens for the moments I want to do street photography, which are not many but fun when that feeling to get out around fellow Mortals strikes!
The 55 - again will see how it tests. It's light, decent size and there may be times it fills a niche in a scene of me. I can also use it in my Landscape work where I love to take a scene that would fit into the Canon 17 and chop the scene up with 3 to 5 exposures from a longer lens, then stitch them together and get exceptional resolution!
The 85 - Ditto comment above on the 55, but will have to define if the 100mm will be substantially better for the few portraits I enjoy doing.
Anyone test out the 85 verse the 100?
So folks, the H5D will be sold - I also cancelled my X1D order.
The Sony is my new standard - I have a lot to learn and there will be moments that a certain feature of it will piss me off BUT, it's like any relationship, one must compromise or frustrate the Hell out of yourself!
Can add the tech later as income justifies bringing in the tech camera as a good compliment.
Seeking suggestions for lenses you have found outstanding with the Sony in architectural and residential work. I'll review all of the post to recall what has already been suggested.
Yes, I know, I crossed over to the "Dark Side" and IF you can't say something nice, then say it to someone else as I have enough on my plate to deal with right now.
Jack
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Jack,
I'd say you need a Canon 24mm TS-E mk2. You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths.
If your plan is to pursue architectural photography professionally you will need a 2nd body. A battery grip is a good idea; the non Sony brand ones that come with a remote release are cheap and in my experience of using one for over a year, reliable.
I recommend that rather than digging deep into the Sony's menu, as you say, leave it on manual and spend your time mastering shooting interiors with the 17mm.
Paul
Thanks Paul for your comments.
I agree with the 24mm TS-E, MK 2 and have it on my list to add this week, probably order it on Sunday when B&H opens up.
My friend that has all 4 of the TS-E's states the 17 and 24 are substantially sharper than the other two.
Also agree with the 2nd body but I'll try to hold off till Sony comes out with their next upgrade OR revenue comes in.
All revenue will initially be rolled back into gear to enhance the work.
You state: "You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths."
What do you recommend as tilted verticals in a shot really bug me when I see them in others work.
Jack
PS: I do feel the 14bit drop to less than 14 is concerning. Over the week I hope to finish a search for any posts that discuss this, extract from them what settings trip this attribute and post it in a single doc for others to add to over time. We should all using the Sony push to get a toggle to universal defeat for any bit reducing.
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Hi Jack,
I have somewhat mixed experience with the 24/3.5 TSE LII. On pixel peeping it is not so great at all. But, I find it does a decent job.
I don't really shoot architecture, but I love shooting old churches. For that the 24/3.5 TSE LII I have works very well. I may have a less than optimal sample or it could be that field curvature is a bit tricky. Just be aware, it may work great or not at all. Personally, I stop it down to f/11 - f/13 and I mostly feel quite happy.
That said, I have done a lot of shooting with the 24/3.5 TSE LII and been happy. In a way, I would possibly feel happier with the 11-24/4. It is less money than the 24/35 TSE and the 16-35/4L. 2017 is more of a landscape season for me, so I am quite happy with what I have right now, 10/3.5 Sigma fisheye (APS-C), Sigma 12-24 full frame, Canon 16-35/4L, Canon 24-105/4L, Contax 28-85/3.3-4, Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5, Sony 90/2.8G and Sony 70-400/4-5.6G.
The weakest link I have is the long end. I would consider looking at some alternatives.
I would add that I don't feel Sony lenses are worth the price. Canon/Sigma lenses may be better alternatives. Canon and Sigma can dilute RND costs over a larger number of deliveries, of course.
It seems that some Leica APO-s work very well with Sony cameras. That is an approach worth a look.
For me, it is about travel. I can take the 70-400/4-5,6G APO. It is not the ultimate lens. But it may be good enough. So I m looking for alternatives.
Best regards
Erik
Thanks Paul for your comments.
I agree with the 24mm TS-E, MK 2 and have it on my list to add this week, probably order it on Sunday when B&H opens up.
My friend that has all 4 of the TS-E's states the 17 and 24 are substantially sharper than the other two.
Also agree with the 2nd body but I'll try to hold off till Sony comes out with their next upgrade OR revenue comes in.
All revenue will initially be rolled back into gear to enhance the work.
You state: "You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths."
What do you recommend as tilted verticals in a shot really bug me when I see them in others work.
Jack
PS: I do feel the 14bit drop to less than 14 is concerning. Over the week I hope to finish a search for any posts that discuss this, extract from them what settings trip this attribute and post it in a single doc for others to add to over time. We should all using the Sony push to get a toggle to universal defeat for any bit reducing.
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Erik,
The 100-400 has outstanding reviews.
I am surprised that you do not feel impressed with it.
I am think of ordering it BUT I don't know how much use I'll have for it.
Are we thinking of the same lens:
Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Lens that costs $2,049 at B&H?
I have decided to keep the Sony 7A7RII. It is just so much easier to tote around hand handle than the Hassie AND at a fraction of the cost.
Image quality I'm getting is not as rich of an image, but it is very adequate for the work I want to break into.
I'll add a tech camera body, lenses once I get a revenue stream started, or just get crazy and part with cash!
Right now I have the 17 Canon TS, 24 Canon TS, 35mm 2.8 Sony Sonnar T ZA, 55mm 1.8 Sonnar ZA, and the 85mm 1.4 GM Sony lenses.
Using the Metabones adapter for the Canon TS lenses.
The a7RII is QUITE different from the H5D I have and it's taking some getting used to for me. Still studying the book I bought on it as the
manual that came with it is useless.
I think I have enough lens choices to get me started in the architectural world, starting with real estate. Have one realtor that
is interested is using me. Need to do several jobs for her at a very reasonable rate to build up a portfolio.
Jack
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Hi Jack,
I am very interested in the 100-400 Canon, it is on top of my buying list! It is the Sony 70-400 offering I am less impressed by!
But, I am a bit short on money after spending on Hassy/P45+ and Sony A7rII systems. Keep in mind that software engineers in Sweden are not that well paid.
I would say that the A7rII is a very flexible and capable camera, but it may be that you learn to live with it. There are a lot of caveats. Or at least quite a few them.
For me it works just fine. I am a bit analytic and mostly a tripod shooter. Some other guy, having different habits, or a different mind, may have a different experience.
Just to say, the Sony 70-400/4-5.6 lens can deliver excellent sharpness. But it cannot deliver over the entire frame.
A halfway recent experience:
There is a nice tree I used to shoot each autumn in a nice autumn shroud. This year I wanted a very good shoot, so I packed the Hassy/P45 and 180/4 combo. I got a nice shoot that was sharp but was not so good in composition.
I also shoot with my Zeiss 35-135/3.3-4.5 zoom on the A7rII, but that zoom lacked the edge sharpness of the Zeiss 180/4.
After a few days I went back to the spot and nailed it. With the A7rII using that Minolta 80-200/2.8 APO I have laying around for 30 years. I had better light, but the 30 year old APO was sharp corner to corner at 120 mm and f/8.
On the other hand... I have shot the same subject ten years ago with the same lens but using my Sony Alpha 100 at ten MP. It is hanging on my wall at 27"x39". Did I replace it? No! It is still good enough!
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
The 100-400 has outstanding reviews.
I am surprised that you do not feel impressed with it.
I am think of ordering it BUT I don't know how much use I'll have for it.
Are we thinking of the same lens:
Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Lens that costs $2,049 at B&H?
I have decided to keep the Sony 7A7RII. It is just so much easier to tote around hand handle than the Hassie AND at a fraction of the cost.
Image quality I'm getting is not as rich of an image, but it is very adequate for the work I want to break into.
I'll add a tech camera body, lenses once I get a revenue stream started, or just get crazy and part with cash!
Right now I have the 17 Canon TS, 24 Canon TS, 35mm 2.8 Sony Sonnar T ZA, 55mm 1.8 Sonnar ZA, and the 85mm 1.4 GM Sony lenses.
Using the Metabones adapter for the Canon TS lenses.
The a7RII is QUITE different from the H5D I have and it's taking some getting used to for me. Still studying the book I bought on it as the
manual that came with it is useless.
I think I have enough lens choices to get me started in the architectural world, starting with real estate. Have one realtor that
is interested is using me. Need to do several jobs for her at a very reasonable rate to build up a portfolio.
Jack
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"Keep in mind that software engineers in Sweden are not that well paid."
Back when I was developing on Silicon Graphics, a fresh Master Graduate from MIT in CG would start at $120K/year!
I didn't need too many of them! That was the period of my life where I had the most intellectual fun!
Jack