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Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Kevin Raber on January 18, 2017, 11:21:23 am

Title: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 18, 2017, 11:21:23 am
I just published a NEW Rantatorial about my experience recently with a disappointment in Apple and my journey into a Microsoft store. 

https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/true-confessions-walked-microsoft-store/
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 18, 2017, 12:13:21 pm
I was mystified to read that anyone could blow $400 on dongles. All is not lo$t at Apple.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: rogan on January 18, 2017, 12:18:18 pm
I just published a NEW Rantatorial about my experience recently with a disappointment in Apple and my journey into a Microsoft store. 

https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/true-confessions-walked-microsoft-store/

I agree Kevin. Tried to read your post but way too long, sorry. I too checked out the surface pro and loved it. But the thought of a new formatting system for hard drives is too much to deal with for one cool new device in 25 years. They are suddenly on my radar though. I'm guessing we see something soon from Apple in the redesigned iMac. And Apple will soon announce they invented the touch screen and it will be amazing.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: gagemanning on January 18, 2017, 12:33:47 pm
Kevin,

I have to admit I've walked into the Microsoft store more than a few times and I have even purchased the Surface 3 and then eventually a surface book.  I was hoping for great things but like always, the stuff just doesn't work consistently.  I purchased the surface book for work and it constantly locks up, won't turn on or takes 20 minutes to finally turn on.  I've never ever had this problem with any of my Macs. 

Last, I also own Apple's new MacBook Pro 15" and I have actually grown accustom to it.  I wish it had a little more horsepower and definitely more ram (I would trade that for battery life).  Hopefully this year will be the year that we see those changes.

gage
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: gkroeger on January 18, 2017, 12:54:38 pm
I too have walked into Microsoft stores and there are neat hardware items.... but I have administered academic computing labs for 30 years, and maintain an entire department of mixed Macs and Windows machines.  The issue isn't a frolic in the Microsoft store, or even a few dates with Windows 10.  It's living with Windows 10 that makes one long for macOS.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: JeanMichel on January 18, 2017, 01:29:29 pm
In an earlier life, working for co-ops, I 'computerized' operations using DOS machines and DOS software (WordPerfect, dBase, QuattroPro, and such). I do my accounting on a circa 1992 DOS machine with 640k of ram, and an amazing accounting program called NewViews. Way back then, I purchased the very first version of Windows, did not like it and that was it. My spouse, who teaches at a college, uses a windows machine, and runs into frequent troubles, such as Windows 10 installing itself without permission and causing umpteen problems that were resolved over many hours and reverting to an earlier version; and just two days ago some application installed itself and disabled the keyboard, took me a while to fix that for her. My older MacPro desktop runs just fine and would have remained my main system if I had not purchased a P600 printer and upgraded LR, neither of which can run on the oder OS, so a new 27" iMac is now the main system. I had a glitch or two when seeing up connections to peripherals and the Apple Care people called within minutes and helped me solve the issues. So, for me it is DOD 3.1 and MacOS  :)
Jean-Michel
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: MattBurt on January 18, 2017, 01:37:59 pm
That new Surface desktop does look slick but what I don't like (besides the half-baked implementations you observed) is what makes it relatively mac-like and what I don't care for with the mac ecosystem. It's an all-in-one system as far as I can tell and that makes it expensive and hard (or impossible) to tinker/upgrade/fix for computer guys like me. If they could just put all of that interface stuff into the monitor and let me have my box under the desk that I can tune and rebuild as I see fit I would be much more interested. I just hate being locked in so that one day if I long for a faster CPU I have to get a whole new system instead of being able to buy and install a new CPU (or RAM, HD, motherboard, etc) myself. ALl that flexibility does have its drawbacks with driver issues, incompatibility, and the uncertainty of the DIY realm. But that is where I feel comfortable so I'll just keep my Windows system going as I have done in the past, using inexpensive parts that were the latest thing last year and feeling pretty satisfied with it.
Windows 10 has been stable for me with my only BSODs (Blue Screen Of Death) happening when I had some serious hardware issues that wound up being related to a failing fan.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Alistair on January 18, 2017, 01:42:56 pm
I do not understand the infatuation some people develop with the Apple brand. Certainly Apple make some very nice high end consumer electronics. We have a few in our household. Along with Android and MS products. Sometimes their products are better than their competitors'. Often not. But the adolescent besottment the author spouts in this article is an embarrassment. And the childish denigration of competitors is distasteful.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Sophia on January 18, 2017, 02:22:07 pm
Unfortunately Tim Cook runs Apple like a regular business guy - he cares about the stock price and pays attention to what the analysts are criticizing, he broadens the product offererings to go after the customers who can't afford Apple, he tries to compete on specs and price, etc.  All that means is the usual tech world race to the bottom and we are seeing those results.

Apple desperately needs another guy with a Vision, who has the confidence/arrogance to completely ignore all the experts and the railings of the stock analysts and Engadget spec 'reviews', has the ability to say no to (maybe profitable) distractions, and the icy heartlessness to punish failures and demand the impossible.   

Of course, anyone possessing those attributes is unlikely to be working their way up inside any large corporation, even Apple.  People like that are generally disruptive, hard to get along with, and are viewed as trouble makers and ne'er-do-wells by bosses and peers.  Even if Apple found the next Jobs in someone's garage in Palo Alto, they'd never let someone like that come in and make rash decisions now.

Maybe companies only get to be Apple (or Microsoft or Google or Facebook) for one lifetime before they inevitably turn into IBM or GE.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 18, 2017, 02:27:44 pm
Alistair, that is why what I wrote it as a rantatorial.  Try walking into both stores and see what your experience is.  I openly admit  I am Apple fan and why.  Point is Microsoft caught my attention.  If they had done a few things different they may have gotten me.   
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: pearlstreet on January 18, 2017, 03:00:34 pm
I use a pc with windows 10. It has never locked up or crashed. I like my iphone and ipad but I can get more bang for my buck with a pc.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 18, 2017, 03:58:23 pm
I use a pc with windows 10. It has never locked up or crashed.

I have a similar experience, even with Windows 7. I think it has little to do with PC's or Windows OS as such.

There may have been some application software related issues (I experiment plenty), but then the choice is usually much larger in that department as well. When I read all those reports about people experiencing hanging computers and crashes, I guess I should feel very specially privileged, it never happens with me. Maybe it has to do with me using ever fewer Adobe applications ..., although Photoshop CS6 extended is used almost daily.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Chairman Bill on January 18, 2017, 04:04:12 pm
Kevin, I just want you to know, that using Microsoft kit doesn't mean you're a bad person. Misguided, maybe, but not bad  ;)
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: 8030rl on January 18, 2017, 04:15:04 pm
Similarly to Sharon I haven't been experiencing any issues with Windows machines. Not in a long time. Many years ago using Windows was often frustrating but since Windows 7 release it's been a smooth sailing. As far as Mac is concerned, it's a mixed bag in my opinion. I have quite a lot of their products: several iPads (love them), iPhones (just ok, use them every day), various iPods (loved particularly the Nano before it gave up the ghost), and a MacMini. The latter is often very frustrating. I think that the perception that MacOS is intuitive is just a myth. Once you use it every day, I'm sure it is fine, like any other product, but if you are only an occasional user, trying to figure out how to do things is infuriating at times.

My point is that those are just tools. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses. Both are built on completely different philosophies: a closed system with little regard for backward compatibility developed by Apple versus a much more open and flexible platform (with a whole slew of quirks and issues caused by that) from Microsoft. Both will do the job. It's a bit like Canon vs. Nikon vs. Sony vs. whatever ... No point of arguing. No point of disparaging one over the other. Just use what you like. In the end it is not about the tools. It is about the joy of making photographs  :)  Cheers. R.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 18, 2017, 04:15:12 pm
Thanks Bill,  The point I was trying to make is MS actually is making some cool products now.  Apple seems to be stuck.  That disappoints me.  The whole concept of the big tiltable desktop screen is really cool.   This new computer doesn't ship until March I am told.  Maybe by then, they will upgrade the processors and a few other things and the software will be more mature.  The MS Store people need to do better too.  They left me standing there by myself for quite some time.  Then when someone did come over I don't feel they were fully briefed on the computer's operation.  And, why didn't they know where the Adobe login information was.  I really wanted to see this machine running Photoshop.  So, in the end, I hope Apple has taken notice and begins to show some brilliance again.  While it might take a lot to make me switch there is an innovative product that will make my work easier and more efficient I just might crossover.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: luxborealis on January 18, 2017, 07:55:06 pm
Until Apple finally (if ever) integrates macOS and iOS into oneOS, I will continue to be intrigued by the MS Surface Pro. A colleague of mine has been successfully using a 3 for about a year now with all the same apps one would run on a desktop. It would be nice to be running a proper OS on a tablet rather than the handcuffed version offered via iOS. As it is, iOS and macOS still fight over fonts and formatting, which is reminiscent of the old Windows-Mac problems of 15 years ago. Really? Within the same, rather progressive company? And I can only run diminished versions of macOS apps in iOS. I sometimes feel like I'm putting on training wheels in iOS to do what can be done in macOS.

Yes, I, too am frustrated with Apple's recent lack of innovation.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: armand on January 18, 2017, 10:34:18 pm
I will also admit I don't get why people are so in love with Apple. I do use iPads though.

I was quite tempted to use just a Macbook Pro as my only system (instead of laptop+desktop) but then I recall my experience with a Macbook pro from few years ago. I tried to copy some photos and videos from a SD card to an external drive. Simple, right? Well for one the finder (or how it's called, the explorer equivalent) was not that intuitive and for reasons unclear to me it only copied some of the photos while leaving the others behind. If a system that people are in awe with cannot do this simple task what else it has issues with?
I get it it's just one experience but I've used other systems (quite a lot of Linux many years ago) and never had issues with this basic stuff.

Windows works well and outside of some hardware related crashes on my desktop (likely related to the video card) I've had no problems with it for quite some years now (starting with Win7).
The windows laptops narrowed and probably closed the performance and style gap that used to be. Are they perfect? No, but neither is an Apple. For most people changing the ecosystem is not worth it at this point.


On a related note my wife has the Surface pro 3 for more than a year now. She seems to be happy with it; for my uses it's not perfect though (a little too much fan, a little too little battery and the most annoying just one USB port).
I have a Hp Spectre x360 and these tablets 2in1 are something that Apple can't touch (pun intended).
For travel, a 2.8 lbs 13" 2in1 touchscreen with a Kaby Laby i7, 512 PCI-E SSD and 16 GB  is more than enough. Battery of 6-8 hours. Even the price is ok at under 1300$. Works fine with Lightroom, didn't bother yet with Photoshop.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: MattBurt on January 19, 2017, 12:40:20 am
Until Apple finally (if ever) integrates macOS and iOS into oneOS, I will continue to be intrigued by the MS Surface Pro. A colleague of mine has been successfully using a 3 for about a year now with all the same apps one would run on a desktop. It would be nice to be running a proper OS on a tablet rather than the handcuffed version offered via iOS. As it is, iOS and macOS still fight over fonts and formatting, which is reminiscent of the old Windows-Mac problems of 15 years ago. Really? Within the same, rather progressive company? And I can only run diminished versions of macOS apps in iOS. I sometimes feel like I'm putting on training wheels in iOS to do what can be done in macOS.

Yes, I, too am frustrated with Apple's recent lack of innovation.

I tried to make an iPad Mini work as a photo travel solution and it failed. Just not practical, apps are not that good for photos, and way under powered.
So I got an older i5 Surface Pro and put Lightroom on it and while it is not a speed demon it is usable and small and runs the same OS I'm used to (Win10).
I've even developed 40 MP files from my 645D. The iPad could never do that. The stylus is nice too as is the option to just use your finger. Good traveler without being big or expensive.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 19, 2017, 04:01:33 am
Hi,

I am an Apple freak, too. Also, I am a Linux freak.

But, I can buy a decent PC with a core i7 processor for perhaps 1.2 k$US or 3+ k$US for an Apple product.

Spent a bit to much on gear lately, and I rather spend money on travel than on computers.

So, yes, I am considering moving to Windows.

Best regards
Erik


I just published a NEW Rantatorial about my experience recently with a disappointment in Apple and my journey into a Microsoft store. 

https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/true-confessions-walked-microsoft-store/
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 19, 2017, 08:46:15 am
Hi,

I am an Apple freak, too. Also, I am a Linux freak.

But, I can buy a decent PC with a core i7 processor for perhaps 1.2 k$US or 3+ k$US for an Apple product.

Spent a bit to much on gear lately, and I rather spend money on travel than on computers.

So, yes, I am considering moving to Windows.

Best regards
Erik
And that i7 in the PC will be two Intel processor generations newer than the one in the Mac Pro
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 19, 2017, 10:41:02 am
I don't have problems with my Windows 10 computers, laptop etc. My main desktop I put it together myself, tinkered with it, used Win 7 for a long time and now Win 10. It works great and reliable. I have some Apple products and I use an Android phone. While the only reason I have the ipad is for my drone and some of the art apps. I really hate the way the Apple systems work. I cannot just plugin to a usb port and copy images to or from, no I have to go through itunes. Itunes as it turns out really is horrible on a pc, crashes, slow, archaic methods of file transfer. My Android phone I can connect to my pc, go to the directory and copy the images from or to my pc and have it done by the time itunes starts and loads and decides it wants to talk to the ipad. Same with the Android tablet. I can get way more bang from my buck with a pc and android.
So that is my rant. I don't get the Apple blindness that can occur but that is just me. My systems run and I put up with the over control that Apple enforces when I have to.

Alan
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 19, 2017, 10:48:19 am
The other thing I notice is that Apple users do have a lot of issues and complain and complain and then like a drug they forget after a few weeks, and make statement like "it just works". It just works except when Apple updates the OS, then everything dies until the apps are updated, drivers are updated. Then Apple does the scorched Earth implementation,  and in order to run new apps you have to have a new overpriced computer. I hear that a lot. Lets face it Windows is a lot more friendly about older apps, yes that can cause problems but it is usually the older software causing the problems and not Windows. I am trying to make it like I am some ultra Windows fan boy, these operating systems all have problems. They are tools, I use the ones that work well for me and runs within my budget. I prefer the openness of Windows and Android even though that comes with its own set of considerations. I really dislike the forced paths of the Apple OS.

Alan
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: RS-Colo on January 19, 2017, 11:34:23 am
My experiences with Apple and Microsoft are long and varied. Many, many years ago I worked for a bank in the trust department following the technology companies. One conference I attended was put on by Ben Rosen, a technology guru who later became head of Compaq Computer. The event was held at the Lake Geneva, Wisconsin Playboy Club. One of the keynotes was given by Steve Jobs. Apple had recently come out with the Apple II. Steve was a very solid speaker, but the techie showed as well. I asked if Apple was at risk because so much of their business at the time was generated by the exclusive presence of VisiCalc on their platform. VisiCalc was the first spreadsheet application. Couldn't IBM or DEC put VisiCalc, or a similar application, on their mainframe or mini computer and bury Apple? Steve's answer was simple and brilliant. When you move your cursor one cell to the right in VisiCalc all is good. Until, that is, you move to a cell off the screen. Then the whole screen needs to be re-painted. That takes a lot of power (in those days) for a split-second. Mainframes and mini computers can't guarantee enough processing power for a specific user on their timesharing machines for the screen-roll time to be acceptable. But an Apple, while much less powerful, had power to spare. Simple and brilliant.

Many years later I got to watch a Steve Jobs' product release show in San Francisco. One of the key things being introduced was the new chip in the Mac. It was made by IBM and was so powerful its shipment to certain foreign countries was restricted by the U.S. government. There was a slide with three M1 tanks surrounding one of the chips on a pedestal. This was no longer a presentation by a techie casually talking WITH the audience. It felt like there was more ego on the stage than in the rest of the audience combined.

In between these two presentations I had a chance to see Bill Gates present at a keynote in Las Vegas during a Comdex show. Bill was not a polished speaker.  He certainly knew his stuff and had excellent slides, based around the popular TV show of the time, Twin Peaks. While Steve Jobs was very different in his two presentations, he was still much more comfortable with his audience. Bill didn't seem to be.

During the time of Bill Gates' presentation and Steve Jobs second presentation I worked for HP. Because of this I have always been a Windows user. It is interesting that both the Mac and Windows operating systems have their basis in the same Smalltalk user interface built into the Xerox Star computer. Back in my days as an investment analyst I had a private presentation from Xerox when Smalltalk came out. All the mouse-based point-and-click of today started back there. Apples have always been easier to use than Windows systems. In the earlier days they were more stable as well. But learning curves are only important for a short while. Once you use a system for any length of time the break in time goes away. Also, Microsoft pretty much eliminated the instability issues around Windows XP. I think the last blue-screen-of-death I saw on a Windows machine was over a decade ago.

I still am a Windows user. It is what I am familiar with. But there is another reason: I don't like Apple. I don't like Adobe either. Both companies actively do things to lock their customers into their ecosystems. And they do so even though they know full well that many of their customers don't like it. Apples' iTunes and Adobe's subscription-only models are examples. I just don't like dealing with companies that take their customers for granted. For most of my photography in the recent digital days I use micro four thirds. I went this way because there were two strong companies competing for my business and both were very creative. Canon, Nikon and Sony ran much more closed environments. You can find lenses elsewhere, but not cameras. In micro four thirds I have had cameras from both Panasonic and Olympus and lenses from both as well.

One final note. During my time at HP I had occasion to visit the HP Cupertino campus many times. It is gone now. Rising from its ashes is the new Apple megaplex. I have visited both Apple and Microsoft stores. But then again, I am a techie at heart and still fondly remember Sharper Image stores as well.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Peter McLennan on January 19, 2017, 12:21:50 pm
I tried to make an iPad Mini work as a photo travel solution and it failed.

No wonder. iOS has no file system accessible to the user.  Game over.

My $300 13" touchscreen Lenovo ThinkPad EDU series works just fine as a travel photo computer. It's not a computing powerhouse, but I don't care. I can view 40MB NEFs quickly and easily. I'll do my serious work when I get home.  Two 2TB USB drives from Costco and I have a heck of a system for less than the price of an iPad.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: MattBurt on January 19, 2017, 12:34:52 pm
No wonder. iOS has no file system accessible to the user.  Game over.

My $300 13" touchscreen Lenovo ThinkPad EDU series works just fine as a travel photo computer. It's not a computing powerhouse, but I don't care. I can view 40MB NEFs quickly and easily. I'll do my serious work when I get home.  Two 2TB USB drives from Costco and I have a heck of a system for less than the price of an iPad.

Right! It was just not the tool for the job. I got it for free from my employer so I thought it was worth a try. Then I bought that i5/4GB/128GB Surface Pro on eBay for $400 and use an old 500GB laptop drive in an enclosure with it for a very lightweight and capable enough travel system and it has been good. Like you I save the real work for when I return so it's good enough for social media, previewing, and backing up my images on the road.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: adias on January 19, 2017, 03:52:25 pm
Everything seems to take a religious zeal these days. Computers, cameras, etc. are just tools and competition is good.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: bobtowery on January 19, 2017, 05:18:53 pm
Curious to me that some of you are having issues with the Surface. I have had Surface Pro 3 and 4. We have several more at the office, and I have numerous friends with them. Completely bulletproof. I use LR on it extensively, Office 365 apps, a video program, etc.

AFAIK it is lighter and thinner than available airbooks. Screen resolution is awesome. Plus, once you have touch (screen) it is hard to be without.

There were several articles written about the Apple/Microsoft dynamic on the day the Surface Studio was announced, as Apple had a product announcement event the same day. Whoa, added the "track bar!"

Here is one: http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-touch-bar-vs-microsoft-surface-studio-2016-10

I always thought Microsoft would turn into the next IBM. Big, old, a worn out aircraft carrier that can't get out of its way. But now that I live in Seattle, and attend some meetings with Microsoft people, I can see that isn't going to happen. They have a bunch of young, smart, people. They are doing innovative work.

(disclosure, I'm not an apple user :>)

As far as the demo unit Kevin tried locking up, I should think they'll solve that.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: armand on January 19, 2017, 07:48:23 pm
Curious to me that some of you are having issues with the Surface. I have had Surface Pro 3 and 4. We have several more at the office, and I have numerous friends with them. Completely bulletproof. I use LR on it extensively, ....

On my part it was mostly the fact that I couldn't find a small dongle with a SD card reader and another USB that will reliably detect both a connected hard drive and an SD card in the same time so I can copy directly from the card to the hard drive. I was compromising in copying first to the Surface hard and from there to the external HDD. I don't know if it was an issue with the power, I'll try with an external SSD.

Probably on version 5 when they will have a USB-C (or two) there will be good enough.
The other thing is that I don't know why they kept the fanless version only with the base version, more RAM and a 256GB would have made it quite attractive.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 19, 2017, 10:26:29 pm
I was mystified to read that anyone could blow $400 on dongles. All is not lo$t at Apple.
Interesting.  I bought the new MacBook Pro, and only have 3 dongles, mainly because I attach the computer to other displays at two locations.  So I bought one of the Hyperdrive mini-docks that has mini-display port  usb and an SD card slot, as well as  1 thunderbolt 2 dongle and one for HDMI. I had two dongles for my old macBook Pro (granted I didn't need them anymore, but I needed them when I first bought  the first thunderbolt MBP.)  Sort of a pain, but USB _C does seem to be one of the "holy grails" ... all devices could interconnect with the same cable.

I will say I'm not sold on Touchbar, seems cool so far isn't very  useable.  Safari tabs are too small to make out and everything on the bar seems to be something that can be handled on the screen with a quick mouse click, so why would I move my hand to the touch bar when i'm already moving the cursor with the trackpad.  I think there are some things that would make it much more useful, like customized buttons to perform actions I choose.  I would love it if Ps would just put the name of the action I've assigned to a function key into the bar instead of just leaving them labeled F1, F2 etc.  So maybe it will get better.  Then again, I only use the computer non tethered and open when I travel so I'll need to take it on a trip or two and maybe I'll find the TouchBar a little more useful.

I will admit the slight weight decrease ( i think it is a little over .75 lbs?) was noticeable to me when I put it in my back pack.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 20, 2017, 04:37:45 am
I imagine Kevin must have bought a dongle for each peripheral, rather than one for each of the ports. After all, if you don't mind blowing hundreds on dollars, who wants to carry around a sleek new laptop with dongles sticking out of every hole? ;)

The USBC-only configuration lost them one sale here, along with the extra price rise in the UK (due to the stupid Brexit vote's impact on the Pound). I don't dislike the touch bar, but it wasn't a selling point for me. A poor substitute for a touch screen or for adding fingerprint recognition to the trackpad?

But as someone who is more PC than Mac-based, I do share Kevin's feeling for the Apple store. I seriously loathe greeters or being approached by sales assistants, but the Apple store is one of very few places where one has ever made me open my wallet. The guy listened to what I was trying to achieve before showing me a solution I hadn't considered (it was an Apple TV). You walk out of the big London stores in Regent Street and Covent Garden as if you've just visited a cathedral.

John
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Hans Kruse on January 20, 2017, 06:43:32 am
I bought 3 USB adapters, one TB3 to TB2 adapter and one HDMI adapter. That was less than $200 including 25% VAT in Denmark. Some people speculate about touch for MacOS and it is a bit odd as Apple has said quite clearly that they are not planning MacOS to be touch enabled. I have no need for touch on my MBP. I love the iPhone and iPad Pro and I don't use (or want) a keyboard with the iPad. what Microsoft has made with the big touch screen is like a huge iPad. The 13" iPad Pro can be used quite effectively with the pen to create artistic work. See here http://www.apple.com/apple-pencil/. Except for the size Apple already had this before Microsoft came with the Surface big screen. I like the new MBP 2016 with the 5K LG external screen. For me this is the ideal setup as a travelling photographer. The touch bar is not yet so useful especially since there is not an external keyboard with it. Within the next half year I'm sure there will be a lot of app support for the touch bar including Photoshop and Lightroom. Will it be a game changer for me, probably not. Has Apple lost the innovation skills? The big thing was the iPhone and the iPad was just a bigger iPhone in a way. Since then the new products have been improvements on the same idea. The Mac is the same and has been improved over the many years in existence. From a helicopter view it hasn't changed much. We have seen new and faster hardware, better and higher resolution screens. If people are expecting game changers as innovation, Apple would have to come up with a totally new product and I don't see Microsoft doing that either. Such game changers only happen rarely and the rest is refinement of existing ideas.

It is often mentioned that there is an almost religious affection to products and companies. Personally I have used Windows in the past. It worked for me but many things annoyed me. I changed to Mac in 2009 (I also used Mac in the 90'ties but change to Windows NT in 1997 which was a relief) and have been very happy with the Mac since then. I would change to Windows if there was a better product there for me. So far I have liked the Mac more than Windows, but have not tried Windows since Windows 7 so my view could be different today.

Look at game changers the Tesla model S EV and autonomous driving that will come in a couple of years is a real game changer. But these game changers are rare. When they come other quickly come in and make compering products like Microsoft did with Windows after the Mac came out. Like Android after the iPhone. Sometimes I'm wondering people really think of when they talk about lack of innovation. Do they have any idea about what that should be? Typically no, just asking for something completely new. If I knew what the next game changer would be, I would not reveal it :)

The experience that Kevin had with the Microsoft store is one I often have when going into a store. The personnel are not very knowledgeable and they don't keep an eye on the customer and when to approach. I have been in an Apple Store once and I could go around without being approached immediately which I liked and then I was asked if I had questions or needed help. Quite pleasant and professional. But I would not generalize based on one experience. Some people make analogies with religion and cathedrals and this is really ridiculous in my opinion. When people are defending the tools they use I find that most of the time they simply rationalize their purchase and decision. Tools are just tools and they only make sense for us to achieve the results we look for and in our case, the resulting photos. That seems trivial to me, but I value good discussions about tools and techniques and there are many good discussions on this forum.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 20, 2017, 07:28:29 am
Some people speculate about touch for MacOS and it is a bit odd as Apple has said quite clearly that they are not planning MacOS to be touch enabled.... The 13" iPad Pro can be used quite effectively with the pen....

They'll say it equally clearly, until the day they do enable it - and then they'll pretend they are innovating. After all, "who wants a stylus?"
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Hans Kruse on January 20, 2017, 08:22:07 am
They'll say it equally clearly, until the day they do enable it - and then they'll pretend they are innovating. After all, "who wants a stylus?"

The pen is useful for certain types of work like what is shown on the Apple page I linked to. I don't use the pen for "normal" content consumption and light e-mail writing etc. on the iPad. That is my observation of how Apple views it. A touch enabled laptop of desktop does not appeal to me at least, but I will not try ridicule those who like it ;) or rationalize why they are wrong. I don't believe Apple will make a touched enable MacOS.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 20, 2017, 09:26:19 am
The pen is useful for certain types of work like what is shown on the Apple page I linked to. I don't use the pen for "normal" content consumption and light e-mail writing etc. on the iPad. That is my observation of how Apple views it. A touch enabled laptop of desktop does not appeal to me at least, but I will not try ridicule those who like it ;) or rationalize why they are wrong. I don't believe Apple will make a touched enable MacOS.

Maybe not "MacOS" or even porting iOS to the desktop, but they're bound to bring together the code bases before long and then claim they invented touch. I'm not ridiculing anyone for liking the iPad stylus, just pointing out Steve's quote was a great example of that.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Hans Kruse on January 20, 2017, 12:08:56 pm
Maybe not "MacOS" or even porting iOS to the desktop, but they're bound to bring together the code bases before long and then claim they invented touch. I'm not ridiculing anyone for liking the iPad stylus, just pointing out Steve's quote was a great example of that.

You think so and I don't think that :) Is there any evidence or signs that what you say will happen? Steves quote was as far as I remember for the phone at the time when the iPhone was announced. At that time the PDA's all used a stylus. A pen is useful for certain operations but not for all operations and I believe this was his point. Apple could make a laptop running IOS for sure, but what sense would that make? They already have with the iPad with a the keyboard. I find touch great for a tablet but not for a laptop with a keyboard. I think we have laptops from Apple without touch for the next 10 years. What happens after that is speculative. But I maybe wrong and it would be the first time :)
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 20, 2017, 01:27:04 pm
They already market the iPad Pro as a computer, so that convergence is already happening, and Apple won't maintain two codebases unnecessarily. Right now, the touch strip's just a so-what feature, harmless enough though.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: uaiomex on January 20, 2017, 01:55:04 pm
And it just begun!


Everything seems to take a religious zeal these days. Computers, cameras, etc. are just tools and competition is good.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: john beardsworth on January 20, 2017, 02:44:21 pm
Has it? I'm just defending my point that I don't like certain features and they put me off buying.

Rather than question someone's motives, why not make a grown-up argument?
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: speedyk on January 20, 2017, 03:17:29 pm
Random notes...

-Funny that walking in an MS store felt like sinning. Feels like slumming to me, but it's because there's so little attention to detail, they do not have a fanatic and never did. Now that Win 10 has been shoved down users gullets, the newest version are set up to slurp all sorts of data as you use them and it cannot be fully turned off. On a Mac you can use Little Snitch and catch Apple doing the same thing but prevent it or let it go.

-Touchbar is a reuse of Apple Watch tech, since those aren't selling well, Apple is trying to get something out of it. Typical product-guy thinking, but it might yet find a use. Meanwhile it presents a hazard of Apple looking a bit more lost than they are. But sometimes forgotten are all the preious misfires and how they just kept releasing things until they got better.

-When I worked as an Applecare support guy, I fixed a lot of mistakes over the phone that "geniuses" made in person. I find the Apple Store experience to be a bit like a church store, everyone inside is a believer and there's a hushed solemnity. I never ever buy anything there, but sometimes visit to check on something for someone I support. I've had Apple training, there are two ways to do something, the Apple way and the right way, not always the same.

-The Surface issue does sound like power to the USB ports not being enough, try a powered drive (separate power supply) and see if it persists.

-Was reading the story of Bugatti automobile this morning, after Ettore passed on the company floundered and was absorbed by another company; plenty of energy and capacity but no vision and so no sales. They were relying on old obsolete chassis and so forth because of sentiment towards Ettore and Jean Bugatti. We can all find examples of this in any human organisation. We saw it in Leica for some years (the Franklin Mint of camera companies), now the M10 looks great, my hands can practically feel it from here.

-Right now all operating systems work well enough, but none of them are really very good. Apple's has been declining for years, MS are trying but clearly swamped by organisational and legacy issues, Linux is amazing in some parts and exasperating in others, because devs work on what they want to.

-Apple won't merge iOS and macOS code until the devices use the same chips. But of course they are reusing parts for various reasons.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: MattBurt on January 20, 2017, 04:36:02 pm
I've never been to an Apple store or a Microsoft store.  8)
Or a Linux store for that matter! ;)
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: jimh on January 21, 2017, 02:18:23 pm
The fact that Photoshop now requires a login seems more of an indictment of Adobe than a failure by Microsoft. 

Windows 10 never crashes on me.

Big technology companies compete by playing leapfrog.  And like the camera makers, Microsoft's hardware people are re-focusing on the high end. 

Disclosure: typing this post on a Surface. 
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: pearlstreet on January 21, 2017, 02:52:54 pm
Kind of ot but my mind image of a surface is Bill Belichick hurling it on the sideline.  ;D
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: schertz on January 21, 2017, 04:30:19 pm
I've been in both the local Microsoft store (empty) and the local Apple stores (always full) numerous times . I personally have a love/hate relationship with the Apple Store.
<rant> It seems like there are three groups of people filling the place 1) people buying 2) people borrowing 3) people getting setup or AppleCare help. The borrowers are the constant group of people who there to use the computer for free all day to job hunt, watch YouTube, screw around on social media and play online video games. When the iMac 5k first came out I was eager to check one out at the store and see if it would be useful in my photographic workflow but I could never get near a machine due to goofballs with no intention of ever buying anything.
There used to be a desk at the back where you could bring purchases, but now you have to find a free associate in the crowd who can check you out, which I have found to cause large bottlenecks of people and delays.
Unlike the Microsoft store the major source of crowds in the Apple Store is people at the back getting setup education or warranty service. I think this contributes a lot to the amount of people in the store.
</rant>
Personally I don't think there is anything special about Mac hardware these days. Apple's obsession with thin and sleek has gotten to the point of form-over-function to their detriment. I use Mac's because of OSX, I need/prefer a Linux type environment for scientific programming work, but support for mainstream applications like Adobe and MS Office products as well and Mac's are the best solution for me...

Mike
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: mecrox on January 22, 2017, 05:48:39 am
Yes, I have sinned. Having barely heard of a Microsoft Surface, I went into a store on the strength of this thread and scoped one out. Very impressive and seemed to be well made too. Much better than I was expecting. Overall, I liked it and would not anticipate any problem having one.

However, it is a bit hard to see where a Surface would fit in. A well or at least moderately loaded Surface 4 here (from the store's price list) doesn't run to much less than a lower-spec MacBook and by that stage a laptop form factor may be the better option anyway in which case there are some very good Win10 laptops around too. I guess I realised that there are limits to what one can do with smallish tablet-style gizmo, whatever it is, which puts a cap on the sticker price for me.  In which case, a tablet may still be a better albeit limited option or failing that a cheap 'n' cheerful Winbook used mostly for file storage and a bit of surfing etc. Still, the Surface struck me as a tasty piece of kit.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: JimGoshorn on January 22, 2017, 04:57:18 pm
As someone who has always been a Mac person and owned them all the way back to the original 128k Mac, the thought of Windows just repulsed me for all the typical Apple reasons. After much thought, I passed on the 2013 Mac Pro because after reading forums, it just didn't seem improved enough to my trusty 2009 Mac Pro that I wanted one. So, I figured that I would wait for the next version which would probably be "perfect" for me (just like I thought all my previous updates were). Well, after over 3 years with no signs of anything changing and my Mac now nearing 8 years old, it was time to make a decision and update. It just didn't seem like the Mac Pro was a priority for Apple. Apple outwardly appears to be more interested in it's Services, Phones, Pads, MacBooks, Watches and the iMac so it has a desktop computer. Apple has talked about the future of computing being an iPad. They have shown a MacBook Pro connected to multiple displays and drives. Look on their site and most of the computer images are iMacs and MacBooks.

On a whim, I emailed a custom computer store (Puget Systems) that I saw mentioned here and explained my situation and the reservations of going to <gulp> Windows. The rep was very patient and understanding and answered all my questions. I honestly struggled with the thought of using Windows, partly out of fear of the unknown and partly because I spent so many years thinking Macs were better but through it all, I kept thinking about the direction I think Apple is heading towards.

So just before Christmas, UPS delivered my new computer: a Puget Systems PC running Windows 10. It's a learning curve to be sure but I feel more confident of where Microsoft/Windows is heading than I do where Apple is heading (?). Windows has it quirks like keywords (tags) not being displayed (or searchable) in Explorer if the file is a PSD. TIF's display and search fine. Small things since I have Lightroom so no deal breakers. Only time I turn my Mac on is if I need to use an app I haven't found a replacement for or a file I want to transfer over.

Just thought I'd share my story for anyone considering going to a PC. Hi, my name is Jim and I am a recovering Appleholic...
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: g_wittigmd@yahoo.com on January 22, 2017, 05:09:05 pm
Long time Windows user here (ducks flying bricks).
I don't 'like' Windows. But every time I have to upgrade computers to run the next version of Photoshop, I price Windows desktops and then the Apple equivalent. And the Apple machine is just about exactly twice as expensive, every time, for similar specs. So I go back to Windows.

Yes, Apple's products are 'cool'. Yes, they're great at hitting the zeitgeist. But they're consistently over-priced for that cool factor. And now Apple is deliberately, intentionally abusing their own customers by removing critical features (SD slot, any connections other than USB-C) just because they can. They are making their own customers spend a bunch of extra money to buy unnecessary dongles that will be easily misplaced or lost, because they can.

I'm always reminded of a great quote from 20+ years ago in a consumer book on computers. "Don't be fooled by Apple. Beneath that warm, fuzzy exterior beats a heart of corporate greed colder than anything at IBM".
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Farmer on January 22, 2017, 09:19:59 pm
A couple of comments:

1. You can turn off all data "slurping" as someone put it in Win 10 quite easily.  You don't need any third party apps.  It's all in settings.

2. I'm using a Surface Book now (i7, nVidia graphics), and it's great.  I have a 200GB micro SD card in the SD slot (sits flush with the adapter) for some extra storage, too (and, of course, I can swap it out).

Run the full suite of Adobe and MS Office apps, plus numerous other things.  Solid.  The versatility of being a tablet or a laptop, the horsepower and battery life (compared to Surface Pro) is a big power-up and really handy.  Being able to use mouse, touch, pen, Bluetooth wireless devices, etc. is great.  Swapping the UI between standard and tablet mode can be really helpful, too.

Oh, and someone mentioned something about Win 10 installing itself (what does that mean?  Updates, perhaps?) but also that apps installed themselves without permission or prompting.  Well, on the latter, that's utterly impossible unless your system has been compromised.

We probably need a "fake news" button for some of the nonsense that gets posted at times.  Fanboi (either side) fantasies about problems experienced by the other side, or problems created due to users not know what they're doing and then blaming the hardware, are not helpful to anyone.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Jonathan Cross on January 24, 2017, 10:35:38 am
Good article, Kevin, and it reflects my UK experience.  We have an all in one Windows 10 PC on which I use Lightroom 6 standalone, and a Windows 10 laptop, which I use when on a photographic trip for file transfer and for an initial look with Lightroom.  We also have an ipad for using to show images to friends and for TV display using Apple TV and both Jane and I have iphones.  Getting files on to the ipad is easy; I just copy them to a folder which then syncs with the ipad when I plug the latter into the PC.

The retail experience is interesting. The Apple store in Covent Garden in London is great.  There is no pushing, yet assistants are readily available to talk knowledgably, do not treat me like an idiot and are very helpful.  When I had a perceived battery capacity problem, the first assistant to whom I spoke whipped out his ipad, linked it to my iphone and tested the battery wirelessly, all within a few minutes of entering the store.  The battery was Ok so he sent me upstairs to talk to a techie who resolved the problem quickly.  He did make a support appointment for a view of the inside of the phone a few days later, but said if the problem did not recur, just don't turn up, no need to cancel.  That wins me!  My local Windows store selling a variety of Windows based systems is totally different.  The knowledge base is way down on Apple.  I could look at Dell, but here that means doing it all on-line. I do not have the space for a dedicated monitor.

One thing I do like about Apple is the retina screen.  My laptop has a screen that is very viewing angle dependent and so I do not trust it.  I am not sure about the PC screen, and now rely on the Lightroom histogram, before exporting or printing A3 or A3+ on a Canon 9500 mk2.  I am unsure about screen calibration as the sensor sits on the screen, i.e. is calibrating at 90 degrees only.  I am drawn to migrating to Apple (probably a macbook pro, rather than a desktop) but am conscious of comments.  5 years is the minimum life I expect of a machine.  I am sure Apple in Covent Garden will help me through the process of migrating. 

Do I stay with Windows or do I jump? 

Jonathan

Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: kers on January 24, 2017, 12:09:42 pm
Walk into the MS store and it is a imperfect green copy of the Apple store...


...
I hope the new Macbook Pro is a turning point for Apple.

I can't remember a product update that has received so much negative response.
For the first time a lot of people including me found the previous model better for good reasons.
Apple totally neglected the aspect of ease of use, being far more important than the 2% better screen, thinner casco, performance...
Phil Schiller said : watch me, over 5 years everybody uses USB-C...but... we live now...
The operating system OSX is becoming more and more a MacOS for Dummies. An iOSX
Disk-utility is stripped to the basics. Older Apple software is not available, so Apple forces you to use the latest system software.
... the latest system is usually a few months old and loaded with new bugs...
So Apple forces you to use an unstable system all the time.
The trashcan Macpro brought good support for Final cut pro X but for other use i would prefer the older Macpro's.
So there is a lot not to like about Apple at the moment.

That said from the first Windows version to that last i find the system ugly to look at.
That alone will hurt my eyes everyday i have to work with it.
Those tiles! the complete rubbish layout and design.
I very much prefer OSX with its uniform clear and elegant layout and design.
Than i think of finder, system preferences and other basic things.
Also i do not want to fill my head with yet another system and the 1000000 little things you have to know to make it work...
I consider that a waste of my brain and time.

So my solution at the moment is... stay with an old Apple system that is stable...
Stay with the old macpro... fast enough for everything but 4K video...( and even that with a proper GPU installed)
I realize this choice is only useful for some years. I hope that in the mean time Apple will change its direction for the better.


I do not like the Apple store - at all!
For me it the ultimate happy-consumer-centre; a place where costumers make selfies so proud they are to be there.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: speedyk on January 25, 2017, 07:24:45 pm
A couple of comments:

1. You can turn off all data "slurping" as someone put it in Win 10 quite easily.  You don't need any third party apps.  It's all in settings.

We probably need a "fake news" button for some of the nonsense that gets posted at times.  Fanboi (either side) fantasies about problems experienced by the other side, or problems created due to users not know what they're doing and then blaming the hardware, are not helpful to anyone.

Agreed, let me help you with your own blind spots...http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/23/microsoft_windows_10_upgrade/

Note the links in that article to other egregious examples (including automatically installing Win10 when the user clicked an X to try to close the window) and then read over 100 comments from IT pros who frequent that site about how screwed up MS is. There is a virtual stampede in the IT world toward Linux right now, if they aren't using Macs. And the people they support will have to follow. Thus empty stores. And note that they themselves acknowledge it, the article is about an apology they extended to their users.

Slurping:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/01/microsoft_backports_data_slurp_to_windows_78_via_patches/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2979054/windows-security/windows-7-8-10-now-all-collecting-user-data-for-microsoft.html

Not hard to find more on the subject: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=windows+data+slurping&ia=web

I do like that the Surface lets the user insert SD cards and use USB, Apple's walled-garden and reliance on iTunes is awful and a meltdown waiting to happen, one reason why an iPhone will never be myPhone, Apple wants to help too much. In truth there is not a great OS right now, user experience is terrible and trust is low because updates now have complete changes of interface and settings reversals hidden in them. So people are more wary of doing them.

Meanwhile Google is blackmailing competing vendors to upgrade or they will publish the exploits, not because they're trying to run competitors out of business or anything. Just because they care so much. They pulled referral funding from Mozilla/Firefox and then started upgrading Chrome at a furious rate, couldn't be to try to herd all users toward Chrome, right?

Again, all the big software companies suck. No fanboy here. Adobe's offerings are like buying a crack whore. There was a golden age when the slur wasn't built in to everything. Now they don't even care if our experience is degraded, it's all about collecting data and lying to us about how it's used.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Farmer on January 26, 2017, 04:25:52 pm
Yes, that was totally unacceptable by MS.  But it was 6 months ago.  No one recently could have had an automatic upgrade forced on them like that.

Regarding the stampede to Linux, that's the smallest stampede I've ever seen:

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Yes, it does send back some basic and anonymous data about crashes and so on.  Most people understand that the issue is about sending personal data or not disclosing what they're doing.

Yes, everyone is in it to make money.  The point is that the horror stories that are often bandied around are mostly fake or simply misunderstandings which get blown out of proportion (on all sides).  A bit like claiming everyone is stampeding to Linux, when at this rate it could happen for 5 years and still have almost no impact.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Jonathan Cross on January 26, 2017, 05:43:11 pm
A nice story for a change.

Yesterday I picked up my Fuji X_T1 with the 56 prime to do a portrait of the speaker at an arts organisation.  Fortunately I gave it a quick test and yuk, ghastly pink cast. Nothing obvious to me so, disappointed, I went off with my Canon and zoom.  Tried again this morning and still the same.  Really unhappy I rang the Fuji repair centre in the UK, though the body is out of guarantee.  I nice helpful guy asked me to get the camera and switch it on. Yes, you have guessed, the auto white balance can be moved around and had gone right across to the red, don't ask me how.  Recentred, all was OK again.  Duh, I am an idiot, I thought!

And the point of this tale - really helpful, did not treat me like an idiot, did not even intimate that a repair was needed, and all sorted in less than 5 minutes.  Customer care like that makes friends.

Jonathan
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: thx1138 on February 19, 2017, 06:37:20 am
Interesting article and like you mentioned in the disclaimer, very much based on the way you experience Apple and Microsoft products. Which in the end it what matters. Like choosing between Canon or Nikon, or Ford and GM. What works for you is what matters.

I must be the only photographer on the planet that does NOT use Apple products. I use Lightoom and Photoshop and they work just fine on Windows 10. Without crashing at all. And the desktop I use, I made myself from industry standard components. Not some fancy expensive Dell or HP workstation. The 4K sceen comes from the same factory as the Apple Cinema displays, as does the Nvidia GPU and the Intel CPU. Under the hood, iMacs and PC's are basically the same.
The price is where the magic happens. Apple's design is top-notch, but you pay top dollar. If you like the way things are designed and look like, fine. I spend my time looking at the 4K screen, not the box under my desk. My money goes to the screen, no the box under my desk.

If I have any issues at all, 90% of the time it's related to the application, not the OS. I see the same at my daytime job. I work in IT, where I manage the infrastructure of a 1000 user company with 11 offices worldwide. The core of this network is Microsoft based and works like a charm. The problems are at the application (3rd party) level, and more importantly, the end user (which is a different story alltogether).

I truely believe we are at a level within the IT industry where the hardware, OS and Apps are generic. They all work equally good or bad, and at the same level of performance. If I were to switch to an Apple tomorrow (for both work and Photography) I would not have any issues. And that's not so much to my merit, but the way devices and apps work these days. I was very different 15 years ago.
In reverse it could also work, but for some reason some Apple users often have a imaginary wall in front off them which they refuse to climb over. I know it's an imaginary wall, because I know many Apple users that did make the jump and now understand that it makes no difference anymore which platform they use. Some of them stayed with Apple. Some didn't and some use it mixed. But what matters is what they use is not right or wrong. It's a feeling. Not an experience. Some feel better driving a Ford, some driving a VW. Both will get you from A to B at the same speed and comfort.

I think innovation no longer happens at the hardware/device level. Apple's touch-bar and Microsofts Surface Dial are perhaps some attempts at innovating, but it's not as huge as the impact the GUI, mouse or touchscreen had. Seems like the whole world is dying for Apple to come up with a revelation. I don't think it's going to happen. And it doesn't matter. We can now focus on apps and using the devices to create other miracles.

Connector trouble (like USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt and whatever comes next) will always be an issue on laptops, where the space is limited so you eventually need a dongle. It's the result of the relentless (pointless) drive in making the thinnest laptop on the planet. Like anyone whould notice the difference between a 4.56mm laptop and a 7.84mm. I think it was pretty much done when we were at 15mm.
What I don't understand is why putting a 2.5mm headphone jack or a USB port in a mobile device (iPhone and iPad) is such a crime. If the iPad would have been 2mm thicker and have a USB3 port, it would still be as great as it is now. We all know why it doesn't have a USB port. How could you explain the 16/32 and 64GB models otherwise ?

Personally, I think Laptops are pointless today. I use a tablet (Surface 3 Pro now but iPad could work just as well) when I want to be mobile. And a fast Desktop when I'm at a desk. The laptop sits somewhere in between, but what position is that ? Being mobile at a desk ? Printing at Starbucks ? Editing on a plane ? Two devices cover 98% of the situations. Three is just overkill. Why do you need a laptop when you have a tablet ?

Smartphones are a different story. They are seen as another form of mobile computing. I use it as a phone, as a messaging device, and as a browser. Thats it. No games. No music (got an iPod + Pono player in car). No 2487 apps I don't use.
Currently I'm on a Lumia 930 Windows Phone. But eventually I will drop it on a concrete floor and need a new one. I simply cannot work with Android (too messy and ADD like). So chances are it's going to be an iPhone because like the Lumia it can do phone/messaging/browsing and I don't have to spend time tweaking and playing with it, since I'd rather spent that time on something worthwhile.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Digital Finger on February 21, 2017, 04:38:31 pm
RIP Steve

Sorry to say it but things WOULD have been better if he  were still around (and in good health)

No one seemed to have got the message as loud and clear as he wanted them to: 'the customer experience comes first, everytime"

maybe Jony is just  getting old.....
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: mdougherty on February 24, 2017, 10:22:47 pm
I'm a WIN 7 person but will have to upgrade to WIN 10 by 2020 if I want support.  Ugh.  I do have a WIN 10 Surface 3 for travel and know exactly what you mean by crashing and freezing.  Din't the Patriot's coach throw his Surface 3 at a bench on national TV during a football game.  The are simply undependable.  You also get the pleasure of watching WIN 10 update itself for several hours every couple months. 
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: dreed on February 26, 2017, 04:56:22 am
I've been in both the local Microsoft store (empty) and the local Apple stores (always full) numerous times.

Buying and owning Apple products is a fashion statement and a "wealth" statement. Their products are not as cheap as those bearing Microsoft so there's an aura of "eliteness" that comes with owning/using Apple.

Quote
Personally I don't think there is anything special about Mac hardware these days. Apple's obsession with thin and sleek has gotten to the point of form-over-function to their detriment. I use Mac's because of OSX, I need/prefer a Linux type environment for scientific programming work, but support for mainstream applications like Adobe and MS Office products as well and Mac's are the best solution for me...

You're right, there is nothing special about Mac hardware except for the "clothes" that it wears. And that's what Apple sells - fashionable computers and phones. But Apple is getting arrogant - removing the 3.5" headphone jack oh phones, removing lightning/thunderbolt/USB ports on laptops, etc.

I use a Mac at work and Windows at home. The way in which it is necessary to use a Mac mouse to achieve what you can with a Microsoft mouse is frustrating - I often find that I lose work because of "Gestures."
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: dreed on February 26, 2017, 05:14:33 am
Quote
A short time later, it crashed.  How could I forget that I was dealing with Windows?  Eventually, I asked if I could try the stylus and puck out on Photoshop.

As others have mentioned, Windows crashes are now very rare. I know of many systems that run Windows flavours 24x7 to deliver real time video, etc, to people all over the world. I can't say the same for any Apple product (doesn't run in the cloud for starters.) In this case it would be the stylus/puck drivers that are not up to scratch, not Windows itself. Badly written drivers have the potential to crash any computer.

Quote
That turned out to be a disaster as well.  Photoshop wanted us to log in.  No problem, right?  Not one person in the store knew the log-in credentials for their Adobe account.

This is not the store attendant's fault, that is Adobe's fault. Or should I say, "Welcome to Creative Cloud." What Microsoft should be doing is including one of the newer photo editing apps on their display computers. Something from the new pool of photo editing applications such as ON1 or Afinity Photo that don't require "cloud".

Quote
Apple usually does the right thing, and within due time, the rest of the industry follows suit.

Whether or not Apple is doing the right thing is questionable. The problem is that Apple is seen as the trend setter so most everyone else follows what Apple does, regardless of whether it is good/right/the best. It is almost a case of "If Apple jumped off a bridge, every other vendor would too."
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: simonphotos on March 01, 2017, 10:30:03 pm
As a photographer I used Windows for years and was very anti Apple because of the price and locked OS. However with WIndows I suffered many crashes, sometimes even in the middle of presentations to customers. NOT a professional look!!!
In my opinion Windows was the best and most stable version of Windows followed closely by XP.
I hated Windows 8 and 8.1 especially the changes in the Start menu.
Windows 10 has been a complete disaster for me with crashes all the time, system restore not working, etc etc etc.
Christmas 2015 was the turning point for me when I spent SIX weeks trying to get 10 to be stable. On Xmas eve I almost threw the laptop out the window (no pun intended!!). That is when I realised that I was spending more time on maintance than work which isnt productive and not good for the blood pressure!!
At that point I decided to  get a Macbook Pro.
People comment that Apple products are expensive, but the top of the line Surface Pros are around the same price!!
Around the time I read the biography of Steve Jobs I purchased my first Apple product, an iPod. I have had Android phones and an Android tablet. I replaced my Ardroid tablewt with an iPad and it doesnt crash etc. So even though I had some trepidation about going to a Macbook Pro in reality it wasnt difficult.
It doesn't crash and wher there is an OS problem Apple admits it and fixes it unlike Microsoft who almost never admit it and take ages if ever to fix.
If you have a good experience with Windows lucky you. Personally my blood pressure is way down now I use a Mac.
Sure it isnt perfect, but then nothing ever is, but IMHO Aple is a better experience than Windows.
For the people that complain about the restricted OS, I dont tink it is as locked as people think, and being restricted is part of what makes it work!!
People have complained about Apple taking the initiative and changing things, but someone has to make the first move. People complained about Apple removing the Floppy disk and maybe it was a forward move, but nowadays no one would think of using a Floppy disk unless they were trying to read old old disks!! Same with the DVD drive. I purchased a super drive which is always beside my computer, but honestly I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have used it in a year!!
The current furore over chaging the ports to USBc will die soon as more and more companies go the same way. But someone had to make the first move!!!  Sure it is inconvienent at present, but USBc cables for external drives will soon negate the need for an adapter.
People say Apple products are expensive but that is true of all producgts. You have cheap products (Acer, HP etc) then you hvae middle products and you have expensive ones. WHich you buy is your choice but if Apple products were over priced as people say and didn't work then no-one would buy them. Just like expensive cars that dont work. Since Apple is one of the best performing companies on the planet they must be ding something right!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: TonyW on March 04, 2017, 02:35:55 pm
Well a die hard PC man here, but I do have an iMac sitting on the desktop even if it rarely sees use. 

Depending on your POV the dark side will suck you in one day and you will end up with both systems.

It is always interesting to read the tales of woe with Windows.  I think that most Windows users expect on occasion to roll up their sleeves and get down and dirty with the OS whereas Apple users expect no issues and IME curl up in revulsion if something dares to go wrong.  Please believe that this is not a swipe at the Mac - they are both excellent tools, but that's all they are.

Often overlooked and what needs to be considered when talking about crashes / failures etc Is the market share of desktop PC (including App,e Mac which is a PC).  Last count I heard was only 10% held by Apple, therefore it seems quite reasonable to expect a huge list of user complaints against the highest share  - regardless how lame ;D

I have used MS products since day one including DOS (when Bill Gates reportedly bought the company that produced DOS prior to selling the idea to corporates  :)).  With early versions of Windows I have had my share of BSOD's and other crashes, but since even Windows XP next to nothing and from Windows 7 nothing at all.  Windows 10 being IME absolutely fine and probably their best OS to date.  Skipped  8.0 and Vista - well MS can get it wrong too.

Up to fairly recently MS not in the equipment supply business which seems to be Apples model with free OS.  Hence IMO one explanation for what may at first sight appear to be a flaky system I.e. Prior to XP?

One thing that Apple has always done well is design, making pretty products to sit on the desktop.  PC's being a long way behind in nice looking units.  Still it looks like there are some positive moves to "sexy looking" PC's.  Just reading this I think I may be a sad individual  ;D

Still going back to what I originally stated whatever you currently use you will be assimilated resistance is futile
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: algrove on March 22, 2017, 10:06:39 am
I have a maxed out MBP from 2015. I also have a 2010 Mac Pro (MP) and have waiting for what seems like ions for Apple to release a new Mac Pro black garbage can, but so far nothing as we all know. In 2013 I was not ready to upgrade as I have maxed out RAM and use a SSD for boot etc. My 2 monitor setup is painful at times with C1, but I seem to muddle through.

My old MP is so slow today that I find it takes a little more than twice the time for it to format a 64GB SD card versus using my MBP. To me that is sad.

Sure I could upgrade now and sure enough right after I do that a new Mac Pro will come out so I am suffering with slow image backups and the like, but I still like my MP mainly due to its OS.

Come on Apple get with it and release a new one soon!
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: bluesplayer43 on March 26, 2017, 05:36:32 pm
I grew up with Windows and have always felt comfortable with MS Windows environment. However, many of my photography friends were migrating to MAC's and some work associates too, and all were singing their praises. The devices Apple were designing all looked so much cooler than any Windows device and extremely tempting. Eventually I acquired an iPhone and iPad, and after being impressed by them, I eventually splashed out on a MacBook Pro. A great looking machine, don't get me wrong, but while I enjoyed the simplicity of IOS, with Mac OS I just have never felt 'as' comfortable with. Apple hides so much from the user and I felt you have to do things the Apple way or no way, whereas with Windows you have the complete freedom to tweak just about anything you want. Mac OS seems so dumbed down in coparison. Windows has had it stability issues for sure, but I have had my fair share of Mac OS crashes too. I'm not a fan of Windows 10, and for me Windows 7 was and still is the best looking GUI.

When Jobs was at the helm, Apple were undoubtedly the market leaders, but they have dropped the baton as late. Whilst Jony Ive is a great designer of the sleekest of hardware, he has in my opinion, wrecked IOS. I just don’t see the point of having ultra-high resolution screens, then dumping skeuomorphism, and making everything flat and boring, and using skinny fonts that old farts like me find hard to read. The trouble is, everybody follows Apple and Windows 10 is also dull, flat and boring. I feel GUI's have taken a huge step backwards over the last few years.

Here in the UK Apple has also become very expensive, and now that I'm approaching retirement age, cost is an issue. It's not just the cost of the machines, put any peripheral, adapter or cable, whether it be from Apple of third party cost 2 to 3 times that of a windows PC equivalent. Software is the same too, and whilst most major packages are close in cost,  minor applications for the Mac always seem to be charged at premium prices, whereas the Windows equivalent are often free, and more often than not, much more sophisticated.

At the end of the day for me, I find Windows a much more productive environment. When time came to upgrade my desktop I chose a bespoke Windows machine, not a Mac. It may not look great (dull black box) but it’s powerful, boots up 64-bit Windows 7 in 11 seconds and is fully upgradeable.

As for my MacBook Pro. Well I’m using it to type this post… in Windows.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: John Camp on March 26, 2017, 09:28:54 pm
I have little doubt that Nikon and Canon are fully equivalent, but I always have used Nikon because I have always used Nikon -- Nikon is both in my head and hands, and the advantages of Canon (whatever they might have been) were not large enough to move me away from what I know. I'm still with Apple for the same reason, but that reason seems to be increasingly less viable.

I used PCs when they were all I could afford, and as I got more affluent, I moved to Macs. I'm not a computer guy and I'm not much interested in computers; I want one that works like a toaster, and Apple was better in that regard than Windows before Win7 and 8 and now 10. Like Kevin, I visited a Microsoft store (in the Mall of America, directly across the hall from the Apple store) and spent some time fooling around with Windows 10 machines. Bottom line was this: I needed a new laptop, and I bought (that same day,) at a Best Buy, a 2016 MacBook Pro, even though new MacBooks were out. It had everything I really need for the moment in a laptop -- but in its arrogance, Apple had pretty much crippled the newest MacBook Pros (IMHO) with their lack of ports, especially for photographers. (My one-generation-earlier machine even has an SD port.) Right now, I'm completely Apple, but that's under review. In two or three years, I'll be ready for a substantial update of my computer systems, and Windows is definitely a candidate. It'll be like moving to Canon from Nikon -- the results will be just as good, but there'll be some awkwardness at first, I'm sure. But after a year or so, it shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: GrahamBy on March 27, 2017, 05:12:56 am
The irony is that the existence of a "Microsoft Store" store is an Apple phenomenon: As a long time PC guy, I would never think of buying a machine from Microsoft. For home, I buy the individual parts; at work I order a box from Dell or HP or whoever our vendor of the moment is. The notion of hardware and software are as disjoint in my mind as camera and film was 20 years back, and although Kodak made cameras, that wasn't their main line of business.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Rob C on March 27, 2017, 06:08:14 am
The irony is that the existence of a "Microsoft Store" store is an Apple phenomenon: As a long time PC guy, I would never think of buying a machine from Microsoft. For home, I buy the individual parts; at work I order a box from Dell or HP or whoever our vendor of the moment is. The notion of hardware and software are as disjoint in my mind as camera and film was 20 years back, and although Kodak made cameras, that wasn't their main line of business.

The only off-the-shelf computer I bought was a Vista-loaded acer. The others were built to order. My original XP is a grey box and my current 8.1 unit is a black thing. Had an HP laptop once, courtesy my daughter, but when the machine died I didn't want another laptop. I don't even want a so-called tablet. I find a smartphone bother enough to cart around, and it's always off unless I want to use it. Likewise I have nothing to do with Facebook, Twitter or anything else like that. Never needed them before they existed. I still refuse to become slave to yet more things that have to be remembered, guarded or picked up and taken with you should you happen to be having a coffee or meal somewhere alone and decide you need to go take a leak. And the latter also applies to photographic gear. Walking a camera to the can is bother enough, and hindrance enough to fulfilling the purpose of the little walk; imagine a camera case on your shoulder too! One camera one lens at any one time not only concentrates the creative mind, but is physically convenient, too!

From the design perspective and the knocks Apple gets: well, people always praised the looks of the products, so inevitably that's where Apple feels obliged to concentate its effort. Exactly the same phenomenon as getting hooked on any target market with one's pictures: if the way you're doing it works you get scared to move on.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: prairiewing on March 27, 2017, 01:30:00 pm
I spend a lot of time on my computer but I'm not a computer guy.  I started on a Mac because I had some artist friends who all used Macs and I know they weren't computer people either.  I also have an iPhone and an iPad and they all seem to work pretty well together.  When I buy a new Mac it's always been pretty easy to get everything from the old one to the new one.  I know its easy because I can do it.  If it wasn't, I wouldn't be able to.

Some people have told me PC's are better.  I believe them.  I'm just not smart enough to use 'em.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Rand47 on April 04, 2017, 02:08:50 pm
I just published a NEW Rantatorial about my experience recently with a disappointment in Apple and my journey into a Microsoft store. 

https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/true-confessions-walked-microsoft-store/

I've never walked into a Microsoft store.  But I have a custom built PC w/ the latest and greatest I7 chip, 32 gigs of fast ram, two SSD and one 2 tb platter, loads of USB 3 ports, DVD drive, very good video card - and it cost me a whopping $1700.00 with on-site service.

Funny, Photoshop and Lightroom look exactly the same as on a Mac.   ;D

Rand
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: paristo on May 07, 2017, 08:18:58 am
I just published a NEW Rantatorial about my experience recently with a disappointment in Apple and my journey into a Microsoft store. 

https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/true-confessions-walked-microsoft-store/

I read You out and clear....
First of all, first timer here and fresh subscriber. Finally got bitten as seek for a more sensible content than usual locations. So Hi to everyone!

Okay, to the topic....
I am writing this from a Microsoft Surface 3 Pro (i3 model, 64GB SSD) that I purchased a three months ago for testing purpose, paying a $400 in used condition. Came with the pen + blue keyboard.

So how about this Microsoft Surface? I knew exactly what I was buying... A bad tablet, a bad laptop but a nice drawing tablet replacement. I was never going to pay a $899 for a new one when Surface Pro 3 was announced. I said so and I said that if I could get one below $500 I would buy one. So couple years later came by by accident a second hand offer and I standed up my words and bought it. Even when I disliked every thing in it that it standed for.

So why? I am not Apple customer. I dislike every Apple device myself personally. Every thing in their devices is what I don't like in my workflow. But that is my workflow, my needs and requirements. Yet I love how they have managed to keep things simple and efficient for people who don't want to use computers! I recommend Apple for most people who I love or just have met, if they are the person who fit the category "Apple profile".

Microsoft has never managed to do anything "well" but they have done "correctly" so things works. And the last things was really that Microsoft would release their Surface Studio instead Apple. But it was expected as 2004-2005 when Jeff Hong (or something, don't recall name correctly) started the company that build the big touch screens as USA defence contractor for data management etc, they got later bought by Microsoft and then came the "Microsoft Surface" coffee table. That was the thing that signaled that Microsoft has something special in their hands if they play their hand right.

And Surface was the thing... Almost... And it still is "almost" as it is just "correct".

Like look the Surface Pen... The pen in Surface 3 is great feeling! It has four buttons (tip, two side buttons, end button) and enough with 256 level pressure. It has nice separated bluetooth three function button at end (press, press+hold, double tap).
Now a artist is swiping hands together from joy, until you wake to reality... You can't program those buttons! Not what so ever!

Like what? That is the Microsoft idea of "graphical designer" device? Even Apple didn't add buttons to their Apple Pencil because they can't offer features!
Surface a terrible laptop because you don't have frictional hinge (needed for tight spaces like airplane table or auditory table that are small) that means you have 50% larger foot because the "support leg".  You can't use device on lap, it is just terrible!
A terrible tablet because you can't use Windows 10 without keyboard, a physical keyboard! The graphical user interface is so far from the usability research findings that it is not funny even! But the physical keyboard wins every time the virtual keyboard for writing.

The small things are what destroy the Windows experience. It is like the missing good network capabilities. Missing user management (thing that Windows Vista brought well, that Windows 7 "polished"). And it is exactly opposite to the Apple. Apple produce products that are pleasant to use as long you need to do it one way, the Apple way. But need more, and it just say "Sorry Dave, Can't do that!". Microsoft are not pleasant to use for small things, but if you need to special way, you need to see effort but you can do it!

I want Microsoft to succeed with Surface line. But they are just toys so far. Even Apple knows that they can't mix iPad and iMac as it would be terrible! But I want Apple to add a touch and PEN to iMac... Really do! I mean touch control like swipe, rotate, pan for the content. Otherwise use pen for drawing/edit and everything else with keyboard + mouse.

It is amazing that in 30+ years, Microsoft and Apple has managed to hold back the innovations and true creativity. Not to allow the real progress to happen quickly and efficiently.
Instead they are there for business, to sell "Wow!" instead tools.

Like compare this from 1982 to anything today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn4vC80Pv6Q
That is what Steve Jobs got presented when he got VIP access to that system and He got that idea of Mouse and keyboard (the User Interface) and Graphical User Interface (GUI).
Mother of all demos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
That is from 1962... Even today that is a "WOW".
Even more wow are the ideas of 3D vector drawing and complex modeling decades ago!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB3jQKGrJo0

I love Apple and Microsoft advertising's... They show so nicely the potential and ideas. But they just flip in many cases. IPad Pro with Apple Pencil is great, but you don't want to type on iPad without physical keyboard. But you don't want to carry one where ever you go!

Microsoft Surface Book is interesting idea, but it again just falls to the stypidity of missing ports and such.

How difficult it is to put a two USB port with enough space between them on both sides of device? A SD card slot and then do something for the easy charging (magnetic pulling cable) etc. Focus to make the GUI touch friendly and problems would start to vanish.
But you can't mix touch and mouse so well at all. You need two GUI that needs to swap on the fly. The GUI framework needs to support every widget scaled differently based what mode you use.

The Surface Studio is "dream", if it would just be a display with pen and puck. Let me build the computer to paired with it! So the Dell idea is nicer.

I love Surface Pro with Pen when I need to retouch the photos. Taking a 50 focus stack photo from a flower, using Affinity Photo to do great stacking and then retouch to remove small hairs etc and repair ghosting (blur of out of focus ghosts) by cloning etc. The Surface is so nice on table/bed/couch. But that is it.

Studio might work better, but same thing again with it. There are no tools to support what is needed to do. Like lets take a example what an artist can do with a few simple tools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRtG5LJ6MZ0 You can't do that with Microsoft Surface with Photoshop or any... The touch screens are like designed for photographers with photo accurate images and tool.

I am considering to buy a new Surface Book, but it really needs better pen. Surface Studio I will leave to the stores as I take gladly a 12-13" display on my lap instead.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Kevin Raber on May 07, 2017, 08:44:16 am
First, welcome.  A lot of content here so enjoy.  And, the debate will go on and on.  The bottom line we use the tools that work best for us.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Telecaster on May 07, 2017, 05:09:21 pm
My suggestion is to ignore proselytizers and use whatever works best for you.

From a former developer/coder's perspective: I avoided Windows whenever I could. Ugh. The original Mac enivronment was nicer to work in. UNIX (various flavors) nicer still. The current Mac OS X (aka macOS) is basically UNIX under the hood, so I imagine I'd be fine with it if I were still working. When it comes to using apps in these environments: doesn't make much difference IMO. The apps themselves play a greater role.

-Dave-
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: rlearner on May 08, 2017, 01:53:49 pm
Upfront:  I'm a hard core Mac/Apple guy going back to the original 9" monochrome screen, 128k Mac I bought out of college.   I'm typing this on a new gen Mac Pro notebook, a dongle attached for my cards.  The dongle's a small pain, but minor vs. almost every time I have to brave Windows for the couple of audio and video programs I occasionally have to use that work only on that platform.    There, it's hit and miss whether, say, a microphone that worked last week will be recognized this week, or whether I'll get a warning that some driver is now missing -- would I like Windows to automatically find and download it?  It's almost comical how that function never works. 

It's good to see Microsoft come out w/some good-looking, even innovative hardware.   As others have pointed out though, it's the reliability and lack of bugginess that defines Mac vs. Windows for many -- this isn't something that shows up on the spec sheets.   Nor does such things as  smoother scrolling and more precise cursor movement.    Software is harder than hardware.   

I know a lot of video editors/motion graphic folks who are frustrated with Apple's seeming inattention to the pro market.   They are apparently going to address that.   I also know of a few editing houses that switched over to PC; it's about 50/50 on happiness vs. pain.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: patjoja on February 09, 2018, 11:21:04 am
I stupidly got sucked into this Apple vs Windows thread after reading the True Confessions article.  Dumb.

Like Joni Mitchell's song "Both Sides, Now", I've experienced both sides of this debate for at least a decade or more.  I've tried to love Apple, I really have.  But in the end I don't.  I think a Mac is a very cumbersome system to use.  Tie my left hand behind my back and cut off one of my fingers.  Now work. :-) 

Yes, I think Apple makes some decent hardware, but I can have an equally good computer built running Windows for much less money with more features, larger hard drives, more memory, etc, and an extremely large range of software to run on it.  My last Windows computer, built in 2014, is still running just fine with no issues whatsoever.  In Apples favor, my 2012 IMAC was converted to a Windows 7 machine and it's still gainfully employed. :-)  My wife insisted that I switch it over because the software was just a PITA to use.  We both find Windows helps us be more productive.

I think what Apple excels at is the cool factor, but that's just not enough for me.  I think there's a reason that Windows still outsells Apple 4:1. :-)

Peace.

Patrick
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Farmer on February 09, 2018, 04:57:21 pm
As others have pointed out though, it's the reliability and lack of bugginess that defines Mac vs. Windows for many -- this isn't something that shows up on the spec sheets.   

Doesn't show up in real life, either, mostly just in legend and memory and dreams.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: mkrupp on February 14, 2018, 01:02:19 pm
I use a 27" iMac and quite like it. Especially after installing Windows on it.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: bobtrlin on March 16, 2018, 04:32:14 pm
A good rantatorial and I don't disagree with anything you say.  However, while you literally own a small part of Apple, Apple "owns" a large part of you :)
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: Kevin Raber on March 16, 2018, 05:27:18 pm
I'm OK with that as everything works.
Title: Re: True Confessions: I Walked Into a Microsoft Store
Post by: leuallen on March 16, 2018, 08:11:19 pm
Quote
Especially after installing Windows on it.

I did not know you could do this. I bought a 16 inch MacBook Pro. Hate it. Hardly use it except to view videos.

I will do this and reclaim part of that $2800 spent on the notebook.

Larry