Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: rdonson on November 25, 2016, 01:13:42 pm

Title: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 25, 2016, 01:13:42 pm
I know this could be a contentious subject with some people espousing their favorite software for Fuji RAW files.  It's not my desire to turn this thread into that.

I've been using only Lightroom for sharpening and I was generally pleased although not thrilled.  A gentleman on another site suggested the use of Nik Sharpener Pro 3.  He said it worked the best for him. 

What really brought it all together for me was a video by Dan Hughes for Nik that outlined a multi-pass sharpening workflow using Nik Sharpener.  I've been super pleased with the results by following his approach.

Here's a link to the video -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE_JeP06IG4&t=3108s

For those not completely satisfied with your current tools or workflow you might find this works for you as well.  YMMV

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: David Sutton on November 25, 2016, 05:21:30 pm
Thanks for the link Ron.
I watched the first 50 minutes and it's a useful addition to the range of tools available for Fuji files.
His " multi-pass" sharpening is another name for capture, creative and output sharpening. So nothing new there apart from doing the capture sharpening after converting to a tiff. That seems to me to work well with X-trans files. Maybe better than with Bayer array, but I don't know why that should be so. The X-trans certainly seem more malleable as far as sharpening goes, with less risk of the result looking unnatural.
One advantage of using Nik's output sharpener for creative sharpening is I see you can adjust local contrast and focus within that step, which I usually do as separate layers using Topaz Detail and then Nik Tonal Contrast.
I have a couple of thousand images from the X-T2 and haven't had time to do any editing yet  ::), so I'll try out Hughes' workflow as part of playing around to see what works. Maybe this week.
David
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 25, 2016, 07:29:04 pm
David, you're welcome.

Yes, multi-pass sharpening is just another name for something we all take for granted these day.  I'm sure that just about everyone involved with programming sharpening algorithms and workflows is aware of Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe's work.  I think Dan Hughes graduated from RIT and may still be an associate professor there.  I doubt he wrote any code but he was involved with the effort and teaching at Nik, Google and I think other photography software companies.

I'm just guessing that the lack of an AA filter helps the X-Trans sensors a bunch.  I'm not sure how it compares to Bayer sensors without an AA filter though.  Like you I see far few sharpening artifacts with Nik Sharpener than the others I've used on RAF files.  My understanding is that the X-Trans array may produce better color but I have no idea how to quantify that.  I do like the Fuji film emulations though and the latest Lightroom profiles for the films seem to have improved.

This is a result of my going through a few thousand X-T2 files trying to find the optimum approach.  My impression is that with the 50% increase in resolution over the X-T1 it's a different ball game with regards to sharpening and color/tonal contrasts. 
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Jack Hogan on November 26, 2016, 05:13:10 am
I'm just guessing that the lack of an AA filter helps the X-Trans sensors a bunch.  I'm not sure how it compares to Bayer sensors without an AA filter though.  Like you I see far few sharpening artifacts with Nik Sharpener than the others I've used on RAF files.  My understanding is that the X-Trans array may produce better color but I have no idea how to quantify that.  I do like the Fuji film emulations though and the latest Lightroom profiles for the films seem to have improved.

Hi Ron, thanks for the link, I use Nik's Sharpener Pro Raw Presharpener often and like its deconvolution implementation for capture sharpening (although on Nikon gear, not Fuji).

Your question about whether X-Trans lends itself to better deconvolution than Bayer is interesting.  I don't have personal experience to say either way but if it were so, it could be because the pseudo-random layout could make Nyquist less clear cut in the dominant green channel - although intuitively I would think that what counts for the perception of sharpness is the luminance/luma channel which in the end goes back to pixel pitch.  Interesting though, I'll keep thinking about it.

I would take AA and color out of the equation.  AA because most new 24MP APS-C cameras over the last couple of years do not have them.  And color because the fact that one may find colors from a manufacturer more pleasing than another's have very little or nothing to do with sharpness.  And all to do with the preferred 'look' of the manufacturer.

Cheers,
Jack
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 26, 2016, 11:45:28 am
Keep thinking about it, Jack.  I'd enjoy whatever thoughts you have on the topic.

If I understand correctly Nyquist is used in the signal processing. I read a recent article that most of the improvements in dynamic range over the last 10 years were only due in a small part to the sensor itself.  According to the article most of the gains were made in signal processing. Thoughts?

A lot of processing goes on in the camera but I'm also very curious about demosaicing of the X-Trans sensors.  I understand that with X-Trans there is no need for the AA filter but what is the state of the art for demosaicing the X-Trans?  There are many different Bayer demosaicing algorithms but it seems Fuji holds the key to demosaicing X-Trans and apparently only shares with certain companies, likely under nondisclosure agreements.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Jack Hogan on November 26, 2016, 01:23:12 pm
I read a recent article that most of the improvements in dynamic range over the last 10 years were only due in a small part to the sensor itself.  According to the article most of the gains were made in signal processing. Thoughts?

I'd be interested to see the article Ron, but that would not have been my first guess.  Other than continuous tweaking it seems to me that there was a discontinuity in DR about 5 years ago when Sony started building sensors with on-board ADCs (D7000 and K5).  You could almost feel a collective sigh of relief earlier this year when Canon finally started to follow suit, which explains their proud DR gain claims for cameras like the 5DM4.

A lot of processing goes on in the camera but I'm also very curious about demosaicing of the X-Trans sensors.  I understand that with X-Trans there is no need for the AA filter but what is the state of the art for demosaicing the X-Trans?  There are many different Bayer demosaicing algorithms but it seems Fuji holds the key to demosaicing X-Trans and apparently only shares with certain companies, likely under nondisclosure agreements.

Can't help you there, as I know very little about demosaicing pseudo random patterns.  On the other hand Bayer demosaicers were a competitive field of research over the last twenty years and now appear to be quite mature. Sometimes one runs faster when chased by a pack of wolves than when strolling with one's dog (;-)

Jack
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: budjames on November 26, 2016, 01:46:14 pm
I own (purchased) all of the NIK plugins. I love the U-Point technology.

Since becoming a Fuji-X camera user, I have switched to CaptureOne Pro 9 for all of my image management and processing. Therefore, I don't use Nik products as much.

Now that Google has relegated the NIK suite to freeware status, I expect future development and updates to cease. You might want to consider looking elsewhere for a sharpening solution.

Bud
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 26, 2016, 05:45:58 pm
I'd be interested to see the article Ron, but that would not have been my first guess.  Other than continuous tweaking it seems to me that there was a discontinuity in DR about 5 years ago when Sony started building sensors with on-board ADCs (D7000 and K5).  You could almost feel a collective sigh of relief earlier this year when Canon finally started to follow suit, which explains their proud DR gain claims for cameras like the 5DM4.

Jack

I thought I saved a link to the article but now I can't find it.  I'll continue the search.  I can see it in my mind now all I have to do is find it.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 26, 2016, 05:50:37 pm

Now that Google has relegated the NIK suite to freeware status, I expect future development and updates to cease. You might want to consider looking elsewhere for a sharpening solution.

Bud

Hi Bud, 

I have many sharpening solutions.  So far, none of them compare with Nik Sharpener for my Fuji RAF files.  Some suggest it is the advanced deconvolution abilities.

Even if Google walks away from the Nik Collection I don't see why the Sharpener would grow stale any time soon.  The only hazard I see is if Adobe changes how it handles plugins but I think even that could be mitigated.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: David Sutton on November 29, 2016, 03:06:37 pm
Hi Ron.
I got to start processing the X-T2 files this week. I've only tried sharpening a photo of an oil on canvas I'm preparing for reproduction and haven't tried foliage yet.
Any use of the detail slider in LR turned the background canvas into what I can only describe as a nasty mess of "worms". I could have masked it out but I don't think the masking slider is there to cover up that sort of thing. So I turned LR sharpening off.
The two pass Nik sharpener method by Hughes worked fine.
I suspect he is correct in saying the two pass method works best where the first round of sharpening is very subtle and the second "sharpens the sharpening".
I tried this with Topaz Detail and another sharpener on top and was also happy with the result. Can't say that one was better, just different. The thing I found with the second pass using Nik's output sharpening is that the focus and contrast sliders are very effective and I think I'd need to play with them for a while to avoid over-doing it.
David
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 29, 2016, 05:36:58 pm
David,

Sharpening X-Trans III  RAW files in Lr has been a challenge for me too.  I had some Lr sharpening settings that work with my X-T1 but were quite unsatisfactory for the X-T2.

I started processing X-T2 files using Pete Bridgwood's recommend starting point for Lightroom.

Amount 40
Radius 0.8
Detail 80
Masking 0
NR Luminance 0
NR Color 0

I could avoid the 'worms" but I just couldn't achieve satisfactory sharpening no matter how I set the sliders.  Perhaps I gave up too soon.

I tried all the sharpening tools I had such as Topaz Detail and Clarity but they didn't quite achieve what I could get with Nik Sharpener.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: john beardsworth on November 30, 2016, 03:57:44 am
I feel you've got to distinguish why you might go outside Lightroom for sharpening, and I only do so for individual images, not in general. Generally, you don't need to leave Lightroom to sharpen XT2 photos. And I think we're only talking capture sharpening.

But I have also struggled to find the ideal starting point in Lightroom, in the sense of changing my default setting 3-4 times. I seem to have settled on this:

Amount 90
Radius 0.8
Detail 10
Masking 50

So compared with my Nikon defaults, sharpening is high, radius smaller, masking high, and the detail setting is the opposite of the Bridgwood XT1 method (which I had doubted from the outset). I won't include NR settings as they're ISO dependent.

BTW, I disagree with the comment "I don't think the masking slider is there to cover up that sort of thing". Masking isn't for covering anything up, it's for targeting.

But I don't rule out changing my defaults again!

John
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Ken Bennett on November 30, 2016, 08:59:21 am
I've not tried the Nik tools, so I downloaded the set and installed everything. I can open through Lightroom into Silver Effects and Color Effects just fine, but when I open into Sharpener Pro I get a blank screen, like the attached screenshot.

Note that at the bottom it shows the filename and info.

What am I doing wrong? I've restarted everything, of course.

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 30, 2016, 10:21:44 am
I feel you've got to distinguish why you might go outside Lightroom for sharpening, and I only do so for individual images, not in general. Generally, you don't need to leave Lightroom to sharpen XT2 photos. And I think we're only talking capture sharpening.

But I have also struggled to find the ideal starting point in Lightroom, in the sense of changing my default setting 3-4 times. I seem to have settled on this:

Amount 90
Radius 0.8
Detail 10
Masking 50

So compared with my Nikon defaults, sharpening is high, radius smaller, masking high, and the detail setting is the opposite of the Bridgwood XT1 method (which I had doubted from the outset). I won't include NR settings as they're ISO dependent.

BTW, I disagree with the comment "I don't think the masking slider is there to cover up that sort of thing". Masking isn't for covering anything up, it's for targeting.

But I don't rule out changing my defaults again!

John

John, I've changed my defaults setting so often in Lr for my X-T2 files that I was getting quite frustrated.  After looking at 3,000+ X-T2 files I was ready to think outside the Lr box. That's what drove me to seriously consider what some were saying about Nik Sharpener Pro and RAF files.   I've long followed Bruce Fraser's concept of capture, creative and output sharpening.  The Nik Sharpener follows this concept workflow.

As you were saying, masking in Lr sharpening enables sharpening of a reduced portion of the image.  What turns black while holding the Option/Alt key will not be sharpened.

As you say, I certainly don't apply Nik Sharpener to every X-T2 RAF file I have.  I save that for only those images I think are truly worthy of the effort.  If it's an image important to me I start by zeroing out Lr sharpening then I "Edit In" PS and apply Nik Sharpener as depicted in the video for performing capture and creative sharpening on layers.  I've been quite satisfied with that approach so far.  I print from Lr so output sharpening is done there in the Print Module.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: David Sutton on November 30, 2016, 03:25:09 pm

BTW, I disagree with the comment "I don't think the masking slider is there to cover up that sort of thing". Masking isn't for covering anything up, it's for targeting.

Yes, John, exactly. We agree.  :)
David
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on November 30, 2016, 09:05:04 pm
I've not tried the Nik tools, so I downloaded the set and installed everything. I can open through Lightroom into Silver Effects and Color Effects just fine, but when I open into Sharpener Pro I get a blank screen, like the attached screenshot.

Note that at the bottom it shows the filename and info.

What am I doing wrong? I've restarted everything, of course.

Ken, have you tried executing the "Edit In" from the Develop Module.  You screen shot looks like Lr is in the Library Module.  Not sure if that makes a difference though...
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: David Sutton on December 01, 2016, 03:45:02 am
Hello Ron.
This has been a useful exercise, thank you for starting the thread.
I have found a foliage image, so now have experience with two photos as against your 3,000+.
With that caveat it seems to me that at this level, we are discussing whether we are looking for sharpness or detail, and how we want to draw the eye of the viewer, so there is a large subjective component to the workflow we settle on. That's not a bad thing if we don't want our processing to look the same as everyone else's.
One problem for me is that in the past I would take the amount slider in LR right up to see the effect of the other parameters, then drop it down again. This isn't working in LR 6 with the X-T2 files. The effect is ghastly.
I think I'm getting the sharpest result with:
Amount 20, Radius .8, Detail 10 and masking 10. Then the two step sharpening in Nik.
The LR values are a little arbitrary, but get me in the ballpark.
The result is not crunchy or over the top, but sharper than I want for the way I see the world in my photographs. So if I want to use the Nik software I will leave out the LR step, and probably knock the Nik step back 20% for the papers I use for printing.
It would be interesting to try sharpening with Nik after a raw conversion with PhotoNinja or Iridient.
I wasn't expecting to have to change my approach so much with the new camera. Cripes it has a lot of detail.
Cheers,
David
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on December 01, 2016, 08:31:35 am
Hello David,

This is a good conversation and I'm very glad you're contributing your experiences and thoughts.

Like you, I haven't found a magic, single approach to sharpening all X-T2 files.  There's no "press this button" satisfactory solution for all photos that I've seen.  It's possible we'll be experimenting a while longer before any of us say, "Ah hah! I've got it all figured it out". 

I feel like I'm still learning Nik Sharpener and what it's like to view the photo at 300% and keeping the sharpening subtle and getting a pleasing 100 or 200% view.

My goal is for us to share our experiences and thoughts to shorten this learning period, if that's at all possible.  A team effort, if you will.

As you say, I'm amazed by the detail available from my X-T2 compared to my X-T1. 

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 01, 2016, 03:56:17 pm
Ken, have you tried executing the "Edit In" from the Develop Module.  You screen shot looks like Lr is in the Library Module.  Not sure if that makes a difference though...

Thanks. I tried in the Develop module, same result. The funny thing is, any sharpening that I do shows up in the file back in Lightroom -- I just don't get any preview in Sharpener Pro. Odd.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on December 01, 2016, 04:21:15 pm
Ken, just a thought although you've likely already had it....

When you go into Lightroom, Preferences, External Editing what does the preset for "Nik Sharpener Pro 4 RAW Presharpener" look like?

Application ? 
File Format ?
Color Space ?
Bit Depth ?
Resolution ?
Compression?

Stack with Original?

If there's nothing out of the usual here have you tried reinstalling Nik?
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 02, 2016, 12:29:14 pm
Thanks, Ron. All the Nik settings are the same (and now that I see them, I need to make some changes, especially in color space). 

I'll reinstall the package.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on December 02, 2016, 05:12:34 pm
Ken, the only time I've seen anything like the behavior you described was when I had a lot of apps open on my machine and RAM was being consumed and compressed frequently.  I took that as a sign that I'd simply overloaded the machine.  I waited for a while and eventually the photo showed up.  Unfortunately you rebooted and duplicated the symptoms.  My scenario really doesn't seem to fit your situation.  I'm stumped.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 02, 2016, 09:57:05 pm
Thanks, Ron, I appreciate your efforts.

I'm getting a new machine this month and will try re-installing then.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: mvsoske on December 02, 2016, 11:27:58 pm
Ron:

I also thank you for this topic. I too have had unsatisfactory results with sharpening my X-Pro2 and X-T2 files using the Bridgewood method and your link and the suggestions in this thread have helped me greatly.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on December 03, 2016, 10:45:04 am
Mark, I'm delighted this topic has helped!!!
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 04, 2017, 12:00:41 am
The best sharpening I've gotten for X-T2 files is with Iridient Developer. Haven't been able to evaluate Capture One 10 yet because I haven't shot any uncompressed RAF files yet, but I suspect it will be excellent as well.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on January 06, 2017, 10:27:22 am
Iridient X-Transformer (Windows) has been released as public beta
http://iridientdigital.com/products/xtransformer.html

I played around with it last night and got some fairly good results. The new Reference View in LR CC really helps with this process. I could get results that look identical to the SOOC JPG which has been a challenge in LR alone. My first lesson learned is that the LR default sharpening of 25 is too much with the presharpened DNGs.

Will be doing some more work on this, and looking forward to input from you all.

 - Morey
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: CeeVee on January 06, 2017, 10:57:57 am
Are you working on raw (RAF) files or DNGs? Are you applying sharpening in the save as DNG?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on January 06, 2017, 06:09:25 pm
Are you working on raw (RAF) files or DNGs? Are you applying sharpening in the save as DNG?

The X-Transformer takes in X-Trans RAF RAW files and outputs DNG files with the Iridient sharpening and noise reduction added to them as you have selected for the processing run. I suppose you could run them through without any sharpening or NR settings, but the Convert to DNG in LR would be much simpler.

Here is a review of the product.
http://www.aevansphoto.com/quick-review-iridient-x-transformer-beta/
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: David Sutton on January 07, 2017, 03:09:44 am
I tried out the X-Transformer and posted some thoughts in "Other Raw Converters".
Quick summary: I'm reaching for my wallet.
Cheers,
David
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on January 19, 2017, 02:27:06 pm
Sharpness with the X-T2 is not a sharpening issue.  It is a demosaicing issue.  If the image is not properly demosaiced, no amount of sharpening will make up for this.  Adobe has publicly admitted that it has work to do on X-Trans.  It is still not there.  With Photo Ninja or Iridient, X-Trans images are razor sharp.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on January 19, 2017, 08:01:13 pm
Can you detail why you think it's a demosaicing issue?  It seems to me to be more of a lack of good deconvolution in their sharpening algorithms. 
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on January 21, 2017, 07:47:24 am
The big difference with rafs is the X-Trans array.  This is widely acknowledged to be difficult to demoniac.  There is quite a lot of discussion around the demosaicing problems with X-Trans e.g. http://chromasoft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/demosaicing-fuji-x-pro1-and-its-x-trans.html
http://www.public.asu.edu/~cdchapm2/2016/07/02/Generalizing-AHD-to-X-Trans/

Here is what Adobe said in 2015  "Reduced “color blur” artifacts when processing Fujifilm X-Trans raw images. In collaboration with Fujifilm, we are still investigating methods to improve fine detail rendering and overall edge definition."  http://blogs.adobe.com/richardcurtis/2015/06/16/creative-cloud-2015-whats-new-in-lightroom-cc6-1-for-photogaphers/

The fact that this topic remains current shows that the sharpening suggestions that have been made over the years (e.g. Pete Bridgewood) do not solve the problem with Adobe's conversion of rafs. 

Dcraw based convertors do not seem to generate such discussions.  Photo Ninja and Iridient do an excellent job of revealing the detail in rafs.

All of the above are strong indicators that demosaicing is the issue.

Have you tried Photo Ninja or Iridient?
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on January 21, 2017, 11:25:32 am
Thanks, Anthony, for the references.

The Chromasoft articles are dated 2012.  The Adobe article was dated 2015.

In 2016 Adobe and Fuji both released statements that processing of RAF files were improved in ACR and Lr and that Fuji continues to work with Adobe.  I do not have links to those statements though.

I don't think demosaicing RAF files is a complete secret although it might be difficult since it's the only non-Bayer sensor widely available but since Fuji can do in-camera RAW conversion to JPG it's not impossible.  It is not in Fuji's best interest to not help RAW converters to achieve good demosaicing.  Obviously Fuji assisted SilkyPix, Adobe and others.  What is missing is that Fuji hasn't released publicly how it demosaiced X-Trans.  No public spec. 

When Iridient or other software are able to produce great results why do you think it is demosaicing that enables that rather than sharpening routines that are better than Adobe's?  I'm just trying to understand.  I'm not a demosaicing or sharpening expert.  I do get acceptable results in the Adobe workflow with Nik Sharpener though.

I do intend to try the Iridient trial version now that it can be called from Lightroom in a more or less seamless workflow.

Here's an article I found interesting.  http://www.public.asu.edu/~cdchapm2/2016/07/02/Generalizing-AHD-to-X-Trans/
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on January 23, 2017, 09:56:56 am
Thanks, Ron, for the comments and link.

Like you, I am not an expert on demosaicing or sharpening.  However, I have followed many discussions and read many articles on these, and from these have formed the conclusion that demosaicing is where Adobe falls short.  Adobe's sharpening is fine.  The mosaic is what differentiates X-Trans from Bayer, so it is understandable that dealing with X-Trans separates the convertors.

I am aware of the comments about how Adobe and Fuji are cooperating, but, like you, I have not recently tracked them down.  It is highly likely that Fuji has disclosed the necessary information on demosaicing (it could hardly say it was cooperating if it had not), but this is presumably under some form of non-disclosure agreement NDA).  As you say, it is not in Fuji's best interest not to help raw conversion software companies.  Indeed, the "painterly effect" and "worms" stories about X-Trans images probable did, and still do, damage Fuji.

I hope your Iridient trial goes well.  Photo Ninja also integrates fairly well with LR; and it integrates very well with Photoshop, which is how I use it.  My workflow of PhotoMechanic>Photo Ninja>Photoshop is similar to Bridge>ACR>Photoshop. http://www.picturecode.com/tutorials/lightroom.php  http://www.picturecode.com/tutorials/photoshop.php

I am very happy with the sharpness of photos from X-T2 raws (always assuming absence of operator error in the initial capture!).
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on January 27, 2017, 07:50:04 pm
Anthony,

Here's an article published today that speaks to the processing pipeline and the demosaicing algorithms.  I don't know enough to agree or disagree but it sure wounds like more work is needed in the demosaicing algorithm for the X-Trans sensor.  I would really like to see Fuji work with others on this.  I don't know that any of the other demosaicing algorithms currently praised are all that much better except in certain circumstances. 

https://petapixel.com/2017/01/27/x-trans-promise-problem/

I've downloaded the Iridient Developer demo for Mac and hope to give it a whirl this weekend.  If it ends up doing a great job and if fits in the Lr workflow that will be $90 I didn't plan on spending this month.   :)
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on January 28, 2017, 09:16:33 am
Thanks, Ron, the Petapixel article did not overly impress me.  It does not even present an accurate image of the X-Trans array, which should have four green squares where the article shows one large green square.

It states that most manufacturers have ditched the AA filter, which I do not believe is correct.  It criticises X-Trans because of the in camera jpegs, using poorly exposed and heavily cropped examples shot in bad light, but admits that the problems can be dealt with by shooting raw and processing.  Where I do agree is that the X-Trans is not easy to process, and so choosing a capable convertor is important.

I think the important thing is for the photographer to know how to use their equipment and to make their own decisions as to whether they are satisfied with the results.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: scyth on January 28, 2017, 11:31:32 am
It states that most manufacturers have ditched the AA filter, which I do not believe is correct.

even fuji did in their MF dSLM w/o any hesitation that lack of X-Trans will hurt ;D
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on January 29, 2017, 04:13:02 pm
First test(s) with Iridient Developer on the Mac for my X-T2 RAW files (RAF)

Caveat:  I just used default settings so that I could see how the demosaicing and sharpening would look.

Background:  I've been a long time PS user and have used Lr since the first public beta of the initial release.  That means that I'm comfortable with these Adobe products.

First Impression:  The initial tests looked great to me with regards to sharpness and artifacts (lack thereof).  I'm not familiar enough with the controls for Iridient to see if I could further optimize the results.  Some of the controls look and function similar to what I'm used to in the Adobe world and other packages such as Luminar.  Some controls seem like a mystery.  I did purchase a book from Thomas Fitzgerald (https://store.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/product/processing-x-trans-images-iridient-developer-e-book/) in an attempt to get familiar with Iridient.  I also watched a video from Alex Isachenko on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/fJ4wJGcgKdw.  Both were helpful but I'm afraid that for me a lot more experimentation and practice would be in order before I felt competent with the software.

At this point I will continue testing and learning.  I'm guessing that what I'll do in the end is use the Iridient defaults and simply roundtrip from Lr to Iridient Developer and back to Lr.  From there I'll complete my processing in Lr and PS.  The roundtripping is easy to set up.

Here's a sample of one of my early tests.  In December I spent a week on a barrier island near Charleston, SC, USA.  I also took a couple of trips to Charleston where this photo was taken. I used this photo and others like it because of the "high frequency" details.  I thought that if the demosaicing and sharpening was to shine it would be on photos like this.  My understanding is that the software uses DCRAW.

I'm interested in what others think and perhaps your experiences with Iridient. Does the demosaicing and sharpening look good to you?

Sample photo - available at 100%

http://www.donsonphoto.com/Other/n-TSnBS/Tests/i-gjCNgHf/O
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on February 07, 2017, 09:24:57 pm
I've been going down a different path testing the Iridient X-Transformer, currently in Beta 2. The idea is not to switch to a different RAW Processor (I've also been using LR since early betas and PS for much longer, but not nearly as much. LR provides 90% of what I need.) but to pre-process the Fuji RAW files, demosaicing them, applying sharpening and noise reduction then outputting a DNG file. Then import the DNG files into LR for further processing. This has been very successful for me. It provides the benefits of the best parts of Iridient and allows me to remain in LR for my image processing.

My first approach was to try to match the SOOC JPG quality that everyone loves. Up to now I have not been able to achieve this in LR. X-T1 files were okay, but when I got my X-T2 there was a marked lack of sharpness compared to the JPG. The first attached file (0989_*)provides a 100% crop of an X-T2 SOOC JPG (left)and a IXT processed DNG (right). I think that the DNG meets and exceeds the JPG quality. You can parse the file name to determine the IXT settings used: RP-S = RAW Process set to Smooth, S-M = Sharpening set to Medium, etc for Luminance Noise and Color Noise. Yes, further sharpening and processing were done in LR, that is the point, IXT is simply a starting point, not the end.

The next attached file (3986_*) is an X-T1 file. It is a 100% crop of a 7 shot vertical pano stitched together in LR. I do not have the SOOC JPGs for this so I am comparing my best attempt to get a nice detailed image. Left is the straight LR and right is the IXT pre-Processed and stitched into another file. The details in the IXT file is pretty good I think. Yes, I could have used noise reduction on the LR only version, but then the detail would be lost again.

I'm finding that I am incorporating IXT into my workflow all of the time now. The steps I use are: Import into LR as I always have, Cull any duds, review and decide what type of IXT setting I will be applying, process the files in IXT, sync the folder showing the import dialog, select a develop preset, and import.  I have created develop presets for the common Fuji Film Styles (Provia, Astia, Velvia) and am working on others.

I have gotten some magenta casts in the IXT files that require me to work out, but it hasn't been a huge problem. IXT is only for Windows right now, but I hear a port to Mac is in the works.

Ron sounds a little dubious about Iridient, and if I was looking at a completely new RAW Processing app I would be too. And speaking of Thomas Fitzgerald, here is his comparison of 7 RAW Converters, Iridient come out pretty high.
http://blog.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/blog/2017/1/one-fuji-x-pro-2-image-7-different-raw-converters

Hope some of you find this useful.

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 08, 2017, 09:43:32 am
Thanks for the very useful info! 

I'm no longer dubious about Iridient Developer.  I did enough testing and I plunked down my $99 US and I'm delighted by the results I get.  I'm able to roundtrip from Lr to ID with a reasonable workflow. 

I'm on a Mac so there is no IX-T available yet  When there is I'm confident that I will purchase it. 
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on February 08, 2017, 11:02:11 am
Good to hear.

I heard some concerns the other day on the FB X-T2 Group that sharpening should be the last task in RAW development and that by doing the sharpening up front we could be causing problems. I don't see any way around it in this scenario. Not sure what artifacts we might see in the image as a result of early sharpening. Curious what folks here think about this and what adjustment to workflow may be needed.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on February 08, 2017, 01:42:03 pm
Ron, glad you have found a good solution.

MBehrens, the key to processing rafs is not, in my view, sharpening, but demosaicing.  I like Photo Ninja, Ron likes Iridient (which I greatly respect but not for my workflow).
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: LeonD on February 08, 2017, 04:11:45 pm
I'm on a Mac so there is no IX-T available yet  When there is I'm confident that I will purchase it.

I've been a LR and ID user for a while now.  I'm just curious what the rationale is for purchasing IX-T if you already have ID?  Brian said about IX-T on his web site: Much of the core RAW processing, sharpening, noise reduction and lens corrections featured in this program are shared with Iridient Developer a more full-featured RAW processor that is available for macOS.

I'm just wondering what I'm missing.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 08, 2017, 05:45:53 pm
Good to hear.

I heard some concerns the other day on the FB X-T2 Group that sharpening should be the last task in RAW development and that by doing the sharpening up front we could be causing problems. I don't see any way around it in this scenario. Not sure what artifacts we might see in the image as a result of early sharpening. Curious what folks here think about this and what adjustment to workflow may be needed.

It has long been said that there are three steps to sharpening (Bruce Fraser and then Jeff Schewe)
- capture sharpening
- creative sharpening
- output sharpening

- I see ID as serving my capture sharpening needs.
- Creative sharpening for me is selective and can be done in Lr or PS or a plugin like Nik Sharpener Pro
- output sharpening for me is mostly for printing and the Lr Print Module does a good job on that for me

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 08, 2017, 05:48:23 pm
I've been a LR and ID user for a while now.  I'm just curious what the rationale is for purchasing IX-T if you already have ID?  Brian said about IX-T on his web site: Much of the core RAW processing, sharpening, noise reduction and lens corrections featured in this program are shared with Iridient Developer a more full-featured RAW processor that is available for macOS.

I'm just wondering what I'm missing.

Thanks.

Perhaps you're missing nothing.  I'm just guessing at this point but it might be a faster workflow to use IX-T over ID or maybe faster batch processing. 
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on February 08, 2017, 07:22:48 pm
MBehrens, the key to processing rafs is not, in my view, sharpening, but demosaicing.

I was thinking about doing some tests with just the demosaicing and minimal or no other adjustments and see what could then be achieved in LR. We'll see...

 - Morey
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 09, 2017, 10:02:06 am
Morey, I've tried Iridient Developer with both the default settings and tweaking them.  For overall looks with regards to detail and elimination of the "worms" the default settings work well.  I find adjusting color and other post processing simply easier and more intuitive in Lightroom for me although that may be because of my longtime familiarity with Lightroom.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 09, 2017, 10:06:35 am
Ron, glad you have found a good solution.

MBehrens, the key to processing rafs is not, in my view, sharpening, but demosaicing.  I like Photo Ninja, Ron likes Iridient (which I greatly respect but not for my workflow).

Anthony, thanks for your inputs on this topic.  They were the impetus for me to seek a better solution.  I'm now thinking, like you, that the Adobe demosaicing algorithms leave something to be desired.  Here's hoping that Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan can eventually address this.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on February 11, 2017, 06:01:38 am
Thanks, Ron.  How do you find the speed of Iridient?  I have been trialling the full program (Mac), and the results are very good, but I do find there is quite a delay between making an adjustment and this becoming visible on the screen.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rdonson on February 11, 2017, 11:47:26 am
Anthony, my experiences mirror yours.  It's slow compared to my other tools.  I haven't looked closely to see what the underlying coding platforms are though.   At one time DCRAW was an ANSI-C code base but I have no idea what is wrapped around that by Iridient.   
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: AnthonyM on February 13, 2017, 12:12:35 pm
Ron, thanks for the comment.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: One Frame at a Time on February 20, 2017, 12:26:53 pm
Hi folks,

I just tried to down load the Iridient Beta for windows and Norton Anti virus immediately flagged and deleted the download as harmful.  Anyone else had this happen?

This is where the file I downloaded resides.  It looks legit but who knows  these days:
http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/xtransformer_download.html
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: MBehrens on February 20, 2017, 03:59:30 pm
Hi folks,

I just tried to down load the Iridient Beta for windows and Norton Anti virus immediately flagged and deleted the download as harmful.  Anyone else had this happen?

This is where the file I downloaded resides.  It looks legit but who knows  these days:
http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/xtransformer_download.html
Have not had an issue and know of many others that have downloaded and installed. I personally don't use Norton, maybe they know something others don't.
Title: Re: Achieving tack sharp photos with Fuji X-T2 RAW files
Post by: rextilleon on March 31, 2017, 04:42:40 pm
Iridient, as far as I am concerned does the best job when it comes to those X raw files that have a ton of fine detail and suffer from the mosaic effect   Unfortunately, as some have pointed its a very slow program, and it does take some getting use to.  There's something nice about being able to see your changes fairly quickly.  I use Lightroom for most of my sharpening and only bring the tough to deal with images into Iridient.  I will give the Nik sharpener a go now that it is FREE.