Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: cbserota on November 22, 2016, 12:13:28 pm
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Just purchased a Canon 1DX Mark II--Canon tech support recommends their free Canon DPP4 for raw software. Any advice and recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks----Charley
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I have never used Canon's own raw converters - I own five different Canon cameras.
My suggestion is to trial all the 3rd party raw converters - Lightroom, OnOne, Capture One etc.
Once you know what the strengths and weaknesses are of each then, if required, fine tune your queries to this forum.
They all work well but have different quirks.
I confess that I use Lightroom but the big drawcard there was not the Develop module at all but the Library module.
In other words digital asset management was the real issue.
Tony Jay
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My two cents worth - Canon's DPP is an excellent raw converter, but a raw converter is all it is. The Zoom Browser program (that used to come with Canon cameras - I guess it still does) is a good browser/viewer as well, but it's nothing like Lightroom as an organizational tool. And I do think Lightroom has Canon raws pretty well dialed in (perhaps more so than some other cameras). So LR is what I use. Some folks who aren't satisfied with LR's rendering will generate TIFFs from DPP, then work those in PS if necessary, or use LR just as an organizational tool, but it's always been good enough for me.
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IMHO, DPP 4.x brings out the best in the latest EOS cameras. Perfectly fine for straightforward editing when local processing is not needed.
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re: Canon 1DX II (I own it)
I always end up in Photoshop no matter what RAW post/converter I use. None have the flexibility and range of Photoshop for making print files.
1) Capture One is great if you have the patience to learn it's UI. I don't. I try it every few years for a few hours, then uninstall. If they re-write Capture One with Lightroom 'like' UI, it will be a winner.
2) IMHO, Lightroom has the best (most intuitive) UI. With practice it gives you a good 16 bit TIFF to play with (refine) in Photoshop.
3) Canon's DPP-4 is an excellent RAW converter for Canon files. That said: quirky and unrefined UI, limited range of post process options, painfully slow conversion (even on very hot computer). Sometimes I use DPP-4 for event shoots where I'm not making art, I'm making documentary snap-shots: Select All > File > Batch process.. and let it grind away for an hour or more. Sometimes a lot more.
4) I have ON1 RAW on order. Thus far, looks interesting.
Only you, the user, can determine what works for you. And since this is highly subjective depending on personal taste and experience, you can't be wrong. As Michael use to say, "Life is short, death is long. Have fun!"
(ps: As a retired old fart, and cold hearted engineer it still surprises me how much I miss that man, Michael Reichmann. I never met him in person. Wish I did. But I feel like I knew him. A first class human being.)
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I just posted a list of RAW devs in the LR7 thread. Since it maybe going all CC I have been working with other options. I really like ACDSee and Capture1.
OnOne I also like and have been using a bit. So we shall see.
Maybe use PhotoSupreme as a DAM and a separate Dev, as that may also speed the applications up.
I have stopped using LR6.8 as it is painfully slow. Particularly with newer large file sizes, and Also tired of the dev module being locked to its order of workflow process. We should at least be able to change the order. Also I keep hitting the bar that closes the dev modules. This should be less prone to occur.
Everything else is really nice. But without the main points I mentioned above, its a useless.
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I have stopped using LR6.8 as it is painfully slow. Particularly with newer large file sizes
Have you tried the option in the performance preferences to enable editing with Smart Previews? ... Not perfect, but better. It's also smart enough to switch to the actual raw when zooming in 1:1.
I'm pretty sure that that changed for the perpetual as well, but I could be wrong.
Having said that, I think the dizzying number of different previews is a bit ridiculous. Capture One only has 1 type, I think - which equate to LR's Smart Previews if I'm not mistaken. They may have all come about as the program progressed though the versions, but going forward they might want drop the others and just stick to the Smart Preview type like C1 - and reduce the storage overhead of all those previews.
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I have stopped using LR6.8 as it is painfully slow. Particularly with newer large file sizes, and Also tired of the dev module being locked to its order of workflow process. We should at least be able to change the order. Also I keep hitting the bar that closes the dev modules. This should be less prone to occur.
Everything else is really nice. But without the main points I mentioned above, its a useless.
What do you mean by "locked to its order of workflow process"?
What do you mean by "the bar that closes the dev modules"?
Jeremy
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I have stopped using LR6.8 as it is painfully slow. Particularly with newer large file sizes, and Also tired of the dev module being locked to its order of workflow process. We should at least be able to change the order. Also I keep hitting the bar that closes the dev modules. This should be less prone to occur.
Everything else is really nice. But without the main points I mentioned above, its a useless.
I am sorry Phil there is no order to workflow in the Develop module.
Play with any slider in whatever order you like.
This is not the first time that you have posted rather strange criticisms of Lightroom that make no sense.
Like Jeremy, I too would like to know exactly what you are referring to with respect to the "bar" closing the Develop module.
I even went back to check Victoria Brampton's comprehensive list of shortcuts to see if I had missed something over the years but no, her list does not provide any enlightenment.
Perhaps, once explained, some of your comments will make sense, but, as written they don't make sense.
Tony Jay
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Having said that, I think the dizzying number of different previews is a bit ridiculous.... They may have all come about as the program progressed though the versions, but going forward they might want drop the others....
I agree - it should stop making us have to think about generating minimal, standard, 1:1, setting standard sizes, etc and do the thinking for us. I still haven't given up on an embedded preview mode though.
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I am sorry Phil there is no order to workflow in the Develop module.
Play with any slider in whatever order you like...
You can, but if I am not mistaken, LR will execute your playing in the order it deems appropriate anyway.
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I agree - it should stop making us have to think about generating minimal, standard, 1:1, setting standard sizes, etc and do the thinking for us. I still haven't given up on an embedded preview mode though.
That makes two of us. It is used in the import module, but with pathetic performance. With the addition of the reference view I would like to be able to reference the embedded image.
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You can, but if I am not mistaken, LR will execute your playing in the order it deems appropriate anyway.
I believe you're right, Slobodan, but so what? It makes no difference to the user, who is free to fiddle with the various tools in the Develop panel in whatever order he thinks fit. LR might be locked into a particular order, but the user isn't.
Jeremy
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I believe you're right, Slobodan, but so what? It makes no difference to the user, who is free to fiddle with the various tools in the Develop panel in whatever order he thinks fit. LR might be locked into a particular order, but the user isn't.
Unless you are a type of user who thinks that his order would be superior, i.e., would produce superior results in the end. I don't, but I can see how some might think otherwise.
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I am sorry Phil there is no order to workflow in the Develop module.
Play with any slider in whatever order you like.
This is not the first time that you have posted rather strange criticisms of Lightroom that make no sense.
Like Jeremy, I too would like to know exactly what you are referring to with respect to the "bar" closing the Develop module.
I even went back to check Victoria Brampton's comprehensive list of shortcuts to see if I had missed something over the years but no, her list does not provide any enlightenment.
Perhaps, once explained, some of your comments will make sense, but, as written they don't make sense.
Tony Jay
Really? "Nonsense"? "Strange criticism"?
"Also tired of the dev module being locked to its order of workflow process".
Maybe "workflow process" threw you off, but what other options could you come up with other than....the "Develop modules are locked to the order" they are in.
Basic/Tone curve/Color/Split/Detail...etc
So the modules force you to scroll through them. Further more, it is easy to fumble with the Hide/Unhide of the tools while doing it, since the entire bar vertically can hide or unhide them. Neither of those were a clue? At least another understood what it was I referred to, at least being the only posiblity.
I stated "We should at least be able to change the order". What else is there in a dev workflow process that can have the order rearranged? I'm not sure what else I could be referring to.
Instead of asking "what do you mean", you claim I post "strange criticisms that makes no sense".
Do I have a First time poster flashing some place on my name ? Does ANYONE need to be told they can move a slider on the screen in any order? If you are hear to learn something, if you don't understand something, just ask the questions. Keep your inquisitive ponder of my strangeness or lack of to yourself.
Is ANY software designed that one adjustment cannot be executed contingent of another being adjusted first? (there might be a one-off app someplace. Lets just hope Adobe LR isn't one of them)
You of all people should know exactly what I am talking about, and IF not your first option that <a user can or cannot adjust sliders at their will....lol>, perhaps use some deductive reasoning from a user perspective might help you understand what it can be.
I have made a bunch of posts with praises of LR, and have a slew of posts helping others with questions. As others have helped me. I have also contributed to update threads since 3.0.
Jeremy asked simply, "what do I mean specifically", which is perfectly fine. I don't need your faulty analysis of me being strange or not(you cant even figure out something as simple and at home as my comment), and your lack of reasoning makes you think I'm nonsensical? Two of your wrongs don't make anything right. To clarify for you, I'm not at all offended, just disappointed. I except more from mortals. I hope the above clarified your misunderstanding.
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Unless you are a type of user who thinks that his order would be superior, i.e., would produce superior results in the end. I don't, but I can see how some might think otherwise.
There maybe a reason for it being locked, but I hardly use Split tone in the begining , I like making Lens corrections before some others, and i adjust color a bit later than detail at times.
I can't say everyone uses or should use the same, but I think there maybe a need to have an "Unlock" option that allows users that have been using it the suggested way, yet find it restrictive to be able to change it.
I would much rather have a real Dual Screen support, with the dev tools as a movable box off the main screen at times, but thats just not part of the options.
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Phil you are simply wrong.
I say again:
You can choose exactly which order you want to apply any edits.
I actually do apply lens calibration and sharpening/noise reduction as import develop presets.
If you are complaining about the arrangement of the panels in the Develop module then that has nothing at all to do with the actual workflow process.
"Is ANY software designed that one adjustment cannot be executed contingent of another being adjusted first? (there might be a one-off app someplace. Lets just hope Adobe LR isn't one of them)"
And yes, again, I am not sure what you mean by this statement either.
Are you bagging Lightroom or not?
Lightroom does in fact actually apply your edits in a particular order - that is not a bad thing since it does this to maximise image quality.
However, that, as previously stated does not constrain you in your workflow in the slightest.
Unfortunately your reply to my post has not clarified your position a whole lot.
Tony Jay
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I don't have a problem at being wrong when I am, but I looked over this in as many angles as I thought logical, and I can only see you being wrong in a few areas. First in the fact that there is likely no software that would limit a users behavior the way you describe.
Second, I actually responded with the order of the modules titles, and third you saying I speak nonsense, and have strange criticism.
I'll address the core issue, in an effort to be productive....With some attention to the details in what you said.
Why would anyone think they are restricted on what adjustments are going to be active or inactive?
What software do you know that has a GUI that you make a slider adjustment, and it doesn't work due to a prerequisite of another panel? Most software just doesn't work this way and makes no sense.
Use some reasoning and think about what is the locked components. Hint: Its NOT the users input, (which is impossible in most apps).
The workflow is to an extent DICTATED in the order the modules are placed.
Yes, you and I, and many do like applying a couple different modules in different orders, and there are sometimes or often images that usually need a little custom tweak per image....
Wouldn't it be nice to have the detail above the Split or Colors? The Lens below the Basics? Better yet, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to pull that column and move it to the screen on the right..given you use dual screens?
Imagine if you can make the right screen with grids a bit smaller so you can fit other panels on it. This has been a often desired, and discussed topic here.
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I don't have a problem at being wrong when I am, but I looked over this in as many angles as I thought logical, and I can only see you being wrong in a few areas. First in the fact that there is likely no software that would limit a users behavior the way you describe.
Second, I actually responded with the order of the modules titles, and third you saying I speak nonsense, and have strange criticism.
I'll address the core issue, in an effort to be productive....With some attention to the details in what you said.
Why would anyone think they are restricted on what adjustments are going to be active or inactive?
What software do you know that has a GUI that you make a slider adjustment, and it doesn't work due to a prerequisite of another panel? Most software just doesn't work this way and makes no sense.
Use some reasoning and think about what is the locked components. Hint: Its NOT the users input, (which is impossible in most apps).
The workflow is to an extent DICTATED in the order the modules are placed.
Yes, you and I, and many do like applying a couple different modules in different orders, and there are sometimes or often images that usually need a little custom tweak per image....
Wouldn't it be nice to have the detail above the Split or Colors? The Lens below the Basics? Better yet, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to pull that column and move it to the screen on the right..given you use dual screens?
Imagine if you can make the right screen with grids a bit smaller so you can fit other panels on it. This has been a often desired, and discussed topic here.
You are talking about having the ability to rearrange the GUI right...to the order you want to adjust the image. I say just learn to live with the way LR presents itself to you...adjust to it and move on. How long really does it take for you to scroll the panel down to the action you want to perform...couple seconds. Does that really make you less productive...really?
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I don't have a problem at being wrong when I am, but I looked over this in as many angles as I thought logical, and I can only see you being wrong in a few areas. First in the fact that there is likely no software that would limit a users behavior the way you describe.
Second, I actually responded with the order of the modules titles, and third you saying I speak nonsense, and have strange criticism.
I'll address the core issue, in an effort to be productive....With some attention to the details in what you said.
Why would anyone think they are restricted on what adjustments are going to be active or inactive?
What software do you know that has a GUI that you make a slider adjustment, and it doesn't work due to a prerequisite of another panel? Most software just doesn't work this way and makes no sense.
Use some reasoning and think about what is the locked components. Hint: Its NOT the users input, (which is impossible in most apps).
[u]Hint, Lightroom is a "non destructive application" i.e it does not make any physical changes to the "Original Imported file" when you work in the Develop Module, the changes you apply to the file is stored in the Catalog File by default. Every time you apply a change to the file you are working on Lightroom utilizes to Original file (raw or tiff, jpeg) and rebuilds the preview applying all the changes you have applied in a pre-designed order. This is why you get the advice to apply changes that require intensive processing like Lens correction, noise reduction, spot removal, brushing etc after you have applied global tone adjustments and the like.
This is completely different to working with pixel editing applications that actually make physical changes to the original files like photoshop. [/u]
The workflow is to an extent DICTATED in the order the modules are placed.
Yes, you and I, and many do like applying a couple different modules in different orders, and there are sometimes or often images that usually need a little custom tweak per image....
Wouldn't it be nice to have the detail above the Split or Colors? The Lens below the Basics? Better yet, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to pull that column and move it to the screen on the right..given you use dual screens?
Imagine if you can make the right screen with grids a bit smaller so you can fit other panels on it. This has been a often desired, and discussed topic here.
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"What software do you know that has a GUI that you make a slider adjustment, and it doesn't work due to a prerequisite of another panel?"
Huh!
I think you need to furnish an example of what you mean.
Tony Jay
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"What software do you know that has a GUI that you make a slider adjustment, and it doesn't work due to a prerequisite of another panel?"
Huh!
I think you need to furnish an example of what you mean.
Translation: most LR sliders are adaptive (or relative), i.e., the strength of adjustment on one slider depends on how much some other sliders are already moved.
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You are talking about having the ability to rearrange the GUI right...to the order you want to adjust the image. I say just learn to live with the way LR presents itself to you...adjust to it and move on. How long really does it take for you to scroll the panel down to the action you want to perform...couple seconds. Does that really make you less productive...really?
Yes , pretty simple. While I have been working with it the way it is, I was using LR and still have to for the larger part of my collection of over 10TB of images, and it does trip me up all too often. I have read of others with this request.
Since LR started, and finally they addressed the dual screen, I think in V3, as thats when I started using it. It may have been torwards ends of V2/?
But they never implemented a true Dual Screen setup, and still have not changed the structure to allow it. Much like the Dev panels
Its a simple issue that does trip me up. And since I have to play around with the arrows to min/max the modules, I also tap the Hide/Unhide.
I think a lot of this frustration is on top of the fact that it is so slow, and just waiting for the screen to be ready...So that added hicup is just salt on the wounds.
Tony, I'm not sure if you can get it by this example style description, but here goes...
In the Dev mode, If it was designed with more flexibility for the user, I should be able to click and drag the Lens module and pull it up and place it under Basic module. I can click drag the Split out of the way so I can have the Details expanded with another module below or above it show without scrolling around much. Using 30" dual screens, I do need the mouse a bit sped up, so when doing detail editing and I slow it down, or even if I speed it up, these little details of GUI modification help in the workflow quite a lot when you spend 10-13 hour days working with such editing tools.
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Translation: most LR sliders are adaptive (or relative), i.e., the strength of adjustment on one slider depends on how much some other sliders are already moved.
Neither of us knows whether this is what Phil is referring to...
Phil was using absolute language, nothing relative about it.
And, in any case, this is a problem, how...
Tony Jay
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Tony, I'm not sure if you can get it by this example style description, but here goes...
In the Dev mode, If it was designed with more flexibility for the user, I should be able to click and drag the Lens module and pull it up and place it under Basic module. I can click drag the Split out of the way so I can have the Details expanded with another module below or above it show without scrolling around much. Using 30" dual screens, I do need the mouse a bit sped up, so when doing detail editing and I slow it down, or even if I speed it up, these little details of GUI modification help in the workflow quite a lot when you spend 10-13 hour days working with such editing tools.
Phil, Adobe made various design decisions a long time ago.
Clicking and dragging panels around was just never the kind of functionality that they went for.
The fact that Photoshop does has this kind of functionality is an indication of the very different use cases and sheer complexity of the application itself that demands that kind of flexibility.
With Lightroom the decision was made to allow individual sub panels to be maximised or minimised or removed (hidden) if required and no more.
The bottom line is that re-ordering sub-panels is not a mission critical bit of functionality and I would prefer that Adobe address much more pressing issues.
The fact is that it is possible to have the lens calibration panel sitting right underneath the basic panel if that is what you desire - just hide the intervening panels.
As for some of the other issues relating to dual monitors and mouse speed - I will say this: dual 30" monitors is a lot of real estate for any graphics setup. I would classify this as a hardware issue not a primary software problem.
Also I am curious to know what you meant by the sentence that I quoted a couple of posts back.
Tony Jay
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I am fine with scrolling to get to the desired Lr Develop action.
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I am fine with scrolling to get to the desired Lr Develop action.
Those who don't like scrolling are often happier after enabling Solo Mode. Right click a panel header, and it's an option. It means only the active panel stays open.
FWIW Solo Mode is how I have always used Lightroom .
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Yes, I too like Solo mode, at times.
If there are specific shortcuts to some sliders to go to directly, which there likely are, and I haven't explored...
With a key stroke (or "programmed key", depending on keyboard type), I can go direct to that panel, then slide. Each of these are a bit different than going to a visible slider(or curve) and directly making a adjustment.
Speaking of the interface, I like most everything, and was simply having snags and slowdowns in my workflow by bouncing back and forth on these panels, and the Hide/Show column of panels.
Since Adobe made design decisions a long time ago, are we to not expect any maturity or growth?
Is there no reason to improve on decisions, are they written in stone?
Dual monitor was not an option, and certainly this was a shortsighted move when it was launched and for a couple versions. But they did make some version of it work, in a limited fashion.
In fact this was a reason I didn't use LR until they did this upgrade, as it gives a great level of efficiency in workflow. But they keep it locked and limited to work as a reciprocal to the main screen, rather than a full functioning window. Why? No need to rewrite some code?
The way software integrates to an OS is something a GUI designer either adapts to or restricts from. The fact that Adobe has made it easier to use in general is a great thing. It allows a welcoming and low learning curve.
If Capture 1 had used OS standards and menu systems as the older 3.7 version it would likely be more widely used. But their decision to have a closed unique system and go high end pro to stay apart and require training is part of their profit and marketing angle to be exclusive.
I think they have diluted this a touch recently, but if you don't use C1 for a few weeks or even days, and use another application, you can easily forget how it works.
So it takes time to familiarize yourself again with it. I have used C1 since its first versions over the decade, and I still try and avoid it due to this. But if shooting with a MFormat back, there are no choices. And I have to say it is a superior processor.
This is why we "love" digital techs, and ramp up production costs. This insulates the market for agencies and the like.
So getting back to the GUI, there are a number of reasons one can come up with as to why LR cant grow up, or out of its shell, but what it has done is get new comers and novices get up and running on a simple GUI design.
Sadly, as a person grows to an advanced level, he or she needs to not only master the software by learning the shortcut mapping, but also feel confined to its limitation. Rather than making the software work for your needs, you have to work for the software's restriction.
At some point we should be able to cut the cord.
The ability to changing the panel order is a small step along with limiting the Show and Hide of the entire column(this is just making the arrow active vs the entire bar), as I often hide it inadvertently.
Due to it being so slow with my current files, the bigger issue is the speed, and related tools like the brush tool that paints erratically in large sizes as it buffers and catches up, jumps around.
Anyway, for someone who uses it as a tool everyday, we can all think of reasons to make certain adjustments that might work better for one person or the other...But that happens when users have options.
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I had my older Canon 5d Mark II converted to full spectrum for IR shooing and DPP is excellent for settIng white balance. Otherwise I use LR but it doesn't have enough "range" for the IR white balance.
Regards,
Ron