Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Lighting => Topic started by: Geocolor on September 20, 2016, 12:31:36 pm
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New Profoto generator faster than 8A and D2, waiting for Broncolor response,
http://profoto.com/speed-redefined/int/pro-10/?utm_campaign=unspecified&utm_content=unspecified&utm_medium=email&utm_source=apsis-anp-3#_
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No work about pricing and availability yet I guess?
In fact there is, price is around 15,000 US$... a bit above my budget...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Pre-order price in Europe, € 12.200,43
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I was also surprised to find out that the pro heads cost the same as the new D2 1000 TTL, which is weired any way you look at it. Profoto needs to rethink the coherence of their price list IMHO.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not sure what 1/80 000th of a sec at t0.5 translates to at t0.1, but at that speed it is only 2.4 ws of light power. Ummm not bloody much.
If it puts out about 1000 ws of light at 1/8000 of a sec without changing colour temp that would be great as Broncolor shifts quite cold when at high speeds.
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Not sure what 1/80 000th of a sec at t0.5 translates to at t0.1, but at that speed it is only 2.4 ws of light power. Ummm not bloody much.
If it puts out about 1000 ws of light at 1/8000 of a sec without changing colour temp that would be great as Broncolor shifts quite cold when at high speeds.
Practically speaking, it should at least be faster than 1/2000s at full power with good color stability to be able to tap into the potential of the new Hassy leaf shutters.
I haven't been able to find a curve showing the flash duration as a function of power output unfortunately.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not sure what 1/80 000th of a sec at t0.5 translates to at t0.1, but at that speed it is only 2.4 ws of light power. Ummm not bloody much.
If it puts out about 1000 ws of light at 1/8000 of a sec without changing colour temp that would be great as Broncolor shifts quite cold when at high speeds.
To get shorter flash duration you need to use twin heads or flash tubes with three electrodes or a closed ring shape. The later draw a lot of amps which leads to faster aging of both, flash packs and tubes, another way is to use very high voltage like the big ones ones from Bläsing (2000Volts). Those cannot be electronically controlled though, no free lunch. We need to accept it is as good as it gets, we´ve reached the design limits a couple of years ago, nothing really groundbreaking new since broncolor´s Grafit.
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Since I am now fooling around with splash photography, I looked at the specs on these when they first came out about a month ago. Initially, they are impressive, however the Broncolo Scoros are still the much better system.
With splashes, not only do you need very fast flash bursts, but you also need all of those bursts to be the same exact speed.
If the Pro 10s allowed the user to alter the speed of the flash independent of the power (as you can with the Scoros), giving you the ability to not only freeze time but produce a dynamic and nuanced image without the possibility of ghosting, these would be a game changer.
Unfortunately Profoto did not go far enough with the system.
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Hi Joe,
If I may ask, what makes you think that, at a given power, the P10 will generate flashes of inconsistent duration?
Are you inferring from the inability to control explicitely flash duration that it will vary even if power is kept constant?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am not talking about a particular power setting varying in its flash duration from one shot to another; I would expect that to be rather consistent.
What I mean is if you are setting up a shot using more then one head, which is usually the case, you need to have the flashes from all heads exactly the same duration to freeze time properly, without ghosting.
Now producing an image with multiple heads, all at the same power, would be rather boring, but if you are using any Profoto gear that is what you would need to do in order to ensure the flashes are the same speed.
With the Scoros however, you can craft a dynamic image with varying ratios of power and then adjust the speed of each flash without altering the power to ensure all flashes are the same speed. If you are using only one pack, there is even an automatic setting that does this for you.
Now color is effected somewhat and you are limited with how much you can adjust the speed as you go higher in power, but canceling out ghosting for a little extra time in post or using a twin head is well worth it.
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Hi Joe,
If I may ask, what makes you think that, at a given power, the P10 will generate flashes of inconsistent duration?
Are you inferring from the inability to control explicitely flash duration that it will vary even if power is kept constant?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, Profoto and broncolor differ from the entire design process. While broncolor cuts off the flash via an IGBT circuit (the flash is switched off during a bright intensity) Profoto uses a selected amount of the capacitors at a higher voltage. Both ways lead to a short flash duration, in favor for Profoto at high power level (due to the higher voltage), in favor for broncolor at lower to medium power levels. Some packs divide the flash energy output by triggering the lower setting channel a bit later, so the other output gets more power from the same capacitor block which can lead to weird effects when capturing motion. Also cutting off the flash power leads to a razor-sharp edge where conventional packs will produce a smear. I hope I could explain this somehow understandable, sorry for my basic english skills.
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I understand Joe, thanks for the explanation.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Practically speaking, it should at least be faster than 1/2000s at full power with good color stability to be able to tap into the potential of the new Hassy leaf shutters.
I haven't been able to find a curve showing the flash duration as a function of power output unfortunately.
Cheers,
Bernard
In a 4week old response from Profoto on youtube they said they were going to publish the T0.1 specs shortly....4 weeks ago. lol
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In a 4week old response from Profoto on youtube they said they were going to publish the T0.1 specs shortly....4 weeks ago. lol
Does someone know if Profoto has shared this information?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Its about time all flash manufacturers quoted t0.1
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I am not talking about a particular power setting varying in its flash duration from one shot to another; I would expect that to be rather consistent.
What I mean is if you are setting up a shot using more then one head, which is usually the case, you need to have the flashes from all heads exactly the same duration to freeze time properly, without ghosting.
Now producing an image with multiple heads, all at the same power, would be rather boring, but if you are using any Profoto gear that is what you would need to do in order to ensure the flashes are the same speed.
With the Scoros however, you can craft a dynamic image with varying ratios of power and then adjust the speed of each flash without altering the power to ensure all flashes are the same speed. If you are using only one pack, there is even an automatic setting that does this for you.
Now color is effected somewhat and you are limited with how much you can adjust the speed as you go higher in power, but canceling out ghosting for a little extra time in post or using a twin head is well worth it.
I'm curious as I haven't had any experience in this, but even if you have different flash durations on different heads, if the slowest is good enough to freeze splashing water, how could you get ghosting? What t0.1-times are we talking about?
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Does someone know if Profoto has shared this information?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
profoto never released any official info on t0.1! but thankfully with the latest light meter it could be tested!
The unofficial spec according to unofficial test however....pro10's shortest flash duration at t0.1 = 1/21000s +/-. lol
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I'm curious as I haven't had any experience in this, but even if you have different flash durations on different heads, if the slowest is good enough to freeze splashing water, how could you get ghosting? What t0.1-times are we talking about?
t0.1 is the time it takes for 90% of the flash energy to be released, while t0.5 is the time it takes for 50% of the energy to be released.
Even with a short t0.5, depending on the technological implementation, you can have light being emited at significant power for much longer, which results is unsharp water.
This is where the implementation of Broncolor, at least at medium and low power outputs, is superior because they cut light emission sharply after its peak, meaning that the difference btwn t0.1 and t0.5 (again at medium to low power) is much less which results in more effective actual water motion freezing.
At higher powers, the cutting still occurs at the end, but the ramp up of power seems to be slower than Profoto and the t0.1 and t0.5 are also significantly different and longer in absolute terms. At least this is what I gathered from various inputs from people in the know, including Joe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The unofficial spec according to unofficial test however....pro10's shortest flash duration at t0.1 = 1/21000s +/-. lol
How about at 25, 50 and 100% power?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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t0.1 is the time it takes for 90% of the flash energy to be released, while t0.5 is the time it takes for 50% of the energy to be released.
Even with a short t0.5, depending on the technological implementation, you can have light being emited at significant power for much longer, which results is unsharp water.
This is where the implementation of Broncolor, at least at medium and low power outputs, is superior because they cut light emission sharply after its peak, meaning that the difference btwn t0.1 and t0.5 (again at medium to low power) is much less which results in more effective actual water motion freezing.
At higher powers, the cutting still occurs at the end, but the ramp up of power seems to be slower than Profoto and the t0.1 and t0.5 are also significantly different and longer in absolute terms. At least this is what I gathered from various inputs from people in the know, including Joe.
Cheers,
Bernard
So my question was how ghosting could occur if two separate heads have different t0.1-times but still fast enough to perfectly freeze water splashes, not what t0.1 is. In my mind if both heads perfectly freeze water splashes, does it really matter if the t0.1-times differ between the two?
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So my question was how ghosting could occur if two separate heads have different t0.1-times but still fast enough to perfectly freeze water splashes, not what t0.1 is. In my mind if both heads perfectly freeze water splashes, does it really matter if the t0.1-times differ between the two?
It doesn't matter if you shoot a walking person at 1/500s or 1/8000s...As long as your are faster than the action speed, you will freeze the action with your camera shutter...same applies to flash duration.
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Profoto, which I love, has never released the t0.1 duration for Pro-10 ,and I have specifically emailed them and asked for it with no response. That tells me something. I shoot Profoto for everything, except for ultra high speed where Broncolor Scoros is the choice.
With both Profoto Pro-10 and Broncolor Scoros the flash duration and power are connected. More power = longer flash duration. Low power = short flash duration. The Broncolor advantage is that you can dial in the flash duration you desire for an image. However with Broncolor there is a colour temp difference between full power slow duration and the min power fast flash duration. My guess is about 7000 to 4500 degrees Kelvin. Profoto is much more even in colour temperature through the power range.
How is this important? If you have a Broncolor lit set with heads at different power levels you are more likely to have different colour balance levels through your set. Basically with Broncolor you need to dial all packs to the same flash duration to maintain even color temp and then play within the power range for that speed range. Profoto color temp is very stable from full to low power so there is less effect.
Film was much more forgiving of these color temp changes through a set, or smoother, but it shows more in digital. To some the difference mean something. To others it is no big deal. But it is there.
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However with Broncolor there is a colour temp difference between full power slow duration and the min power fast flash duration. My guess is about 7000 to 4500 degrees Kelvin. Profoto is much more even in colour temperature through the power range.
Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.
Cheers,
Bernard
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profoto never released any official info on t0.1! but thankfully with the latest light meter it could be tested!
The unofficial spec according to unofficial test however....pro10's shortest flash duration at t0.1 = 1/21000s +/-. lol
So my question was how ghosting could occur if two separate heads have different t0.1-times but still fast enough to perfectly freeze water splashes, not what t0.1 is. In my mind if both heads perfectly freeze water splashes, does it really matter if the t0.1-times differ between the two?
Although this is nice, it still does not matter unless you can sync all of the heads to be firing at the same exact speed, otherwise you still get ghosting.
You're never really freezing motion, you are just excepting a certain amount of motion blur will happen, but hopefully not (too) noticeable. The problem occurs when an object is moving fast enough where the amount of motion blur caused by two different light sources don't perfectly overlap. This is when you get ghosting and it starts to look bad. For people, you're most likely never going to notice it; for a splash, it will become very noticeable.
Just for fun, before syncing the packs, I did a recent test with the Scoros where one pack was firing at 1/7500 and the other at 1/8000 (at t0.1). That is a difference of 1/120,000 second and I still got ghosting.
Mind you I was working with a 60 MP capture, damn sharp technical camera lenses and clear water, but it happened.
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Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.
Cheers,
Bernard
So long as you set the pack to pick the best possible flash duration for a given power, the color will be consistent. It is when you start to alter the speeds to sync the heads that you get off color.
Here's an outtake example. Before syncing the speeds, the color was consistent through out. Afterwards, the front went a pale blueish green and the background pink. It is really noticeable in this image since everything is white; in others it may not be noticeable.
Anyway, overall easy to fix, except for where the splash and pour in the final overlapped the background and foreground.
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Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.
Cheers,
Bernard
It absolutely is, obviously you have to understand how it all plays together to get the best out of it. Without altering the flash duration you already get a very short flash duration with the Scoro packs. Key is the cut off of the flash tail of the light with the IGBT circuit which always takes place when not using all stored energy and leads to a sharper image. Careful setup of the lamps to keep the power down or the use of twin heads where you can´t is also of great value. If you need to get further and keep the color between the heads it´s best to alter the color temp towards blue which also results in shorter flash duration while keeping all heads in the same color range. Alternately if you want to keep it simple you may just use the "speed" button (which does exactly that without letting you have entire control). Just setting flash duration to min is not what you want to do, it´s for extreme applications. In this setting you may get indeed a significant shift towards blue when power is dialed down to a very low setting. BTW, all the same applies to the grafit A series which could also be set to a color shift in 50deg steps resulting in shorter flash duration by using the broncolor FCC. There are a lot of extra functions deep down in the menus which makes the broncolor packs incredible versatile. I don´t want to bash the Profoto system which would be a close second choice for me but depending on the job if I rent and cannot get broncolor packs I might really feel kind of limited. Hope this helps a bit ;-) Cheers, Ulf
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I just checked the data sheet for the latest Scoros 3200 pack and the flash duration at full power is 1/132 sec t0.1. That is the #1 reason I bought Profoto vs Broncolor for my day to day flash
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I just checked the data sheet for the latest Scoros 3200 pack and the flash duration at full power is 1/132 sec t0.1. That is the #1 reason I bought Profoto vs Broncolor for my day to day flash
Yes sure, as Profoto uses higher voltage (1000V vs. 700V) it definitely has the shorter flash duration at maximum power. That said I have used maximum power from my broncolor packs maybe once or twice in the last 20 years, just being lazy to not switch to a twin head or over to my Bläsing packs, because if I really need power (they run at 2500Volts and use metall paper capacitors, even the small 2500J one has more light output than a 3200J electrolytic capacitor pack) these are the way to go. Once you start to dial the brons down the flash duration shortens in favor for broncolor as they simply switch off and cut the flash tail. So about 99.9% of the time I use my packs.
We´re on the edge of technology these days, there have been packs with higher voltage, tubes with three electrodes or closed ring shape for shorter flash duration, all of which have their pros and cons. The way I use my broncolor system it provides the best color consistency and an advanced crisp flash duration in combination with minimum wear of capacitors and flash tubes. It simply is as good as it gets. I´d always try to avoid to torture my tubes with maximum power. (3200Ws is easily 500.000Watts for the time of the flash duration) I know how those units work, based on that knowledge I made my choice. Both manufacturers sell excellent equipment and I can easily see the handling with rotary knobs and the uncluttered design in favor for Profoto. Cheers!
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Profoto, which I love, has never released the t0.1 duration for Pro-10 ,and I have specifically emailed them and asked for it with no response. That tells me something. I shoot Profoto for everything, except for ultra high speed where Broncolor Scoros is the choice.
In fact the Pro-10 now ships with a table giving T0.5 and T0.1 at all power settings in normal and speed mode.
For example, the T0.1 at 5.0 power (75 Ws) in speed mode is 1/10,000 sec.
At full power (2400 Ws), the t0.1 is 1/600s while the t0.5 is 1/1000s.
Assuming you work with 2 heads, the power being 1200 Ws, you start with a t0.1 of 1/1500s.
Not sure how this compares with the Broncolor, but I found these numbers to be pretty good.
Cheers,
Bernard
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In fact the Pro-10 now ships with a table giving T0.5 and T0.1 at all power settings in normal and speed mode.
For example, the T0.1 at 5.0 power (75 Ws) in speed mode is 1/10,000 sec.
At full power (2400 Ws), the t0.1 is 1/600s while the t0.5 is 1/1000s.
Assuming you work with 2 heads, the power being 1200 Ws, you start with a t0.1 of 1/1500s.
Not sure how this compares with the Broncolor, but I found these numbers to be pretty good.
Cheers,
Bernard
The Pro10 is faster than Scoro, finally.
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The Pro10 is faster than Scoro, finally.
See my post above. Nothing new or surprising here. It probably simply boils down to what lights / modifiers you personally prefer. They are both excellent systems.
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Hi Ulf,
I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.
cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Ulf,
I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.
cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
I don't know what you own or what you do but from someone that owns both my experience is profto is tougher and travels well, bron is more expensive and offers more modifiers and solutions.
Rent them, try them, then you'll know.
Like Ulf who knows how to light and I think buys it rather than rent. He went one way, I went both.
Now if you want to spend big money buy Briese. They don't do anything different except make you sell your house.
IMO
BC
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I don't know what you own or what you do but from someone that owns both my experience is profto is tougher and travels well, bron is more expensive and offers more modifiers and solutions.
Rent them, try them, then you'll know.
Like Ulf who knows how to light and I think buys it rather than rent. He went one way, I went both.
Now if you want to spend big money buy Briese. They don't do anything different except make you sell your house.
You'll like them though because their are yellow and black. Kind of like that 1980's Nikon Logo.
Hi Bcooter,
Not too sure why this is becoming about me, but I own a mix of Profoto monolights/pack/heads/triggers/modifiers and Broncolor modifiers that I find very impressive. The prices are pretty much the same in Japan (Bron was in fact a bit cheaper a year ago, now they are a bit more expensive when taking discounts into account), but Profoto is more readily available and I think that they appear to be overall a bit more responsive to market changes (support of Sony and Fuji cameras,...).
As always, I try to figure out what's best for my needs/budget and go with that taking into account my previous decisions (right or wrong).
But it has never been my intention to turn this into a brand discussion.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Bcooter,
Not too sure why this is becoming about me, but I own a mix of Profoto monolights/pack/heads/triggers/modifiers and Broncolor modifiers that I find very impressive. The prices are pretty much the same in Japan (Bron was in fact a bit cheaper a year ago, now they are a bit more expensive when taking discounts into account), but Profoto is more readily available and I think that they appear to be overall a bit more responsive to market changes (support of Sony and Fuji cameras,...).
As always, I try to figure out what's best for my needs/budget and go with that taking into account my previous decisions (right or wrong).
But it has never been my intention to turn this into a brand discussion.
Cheers,
Bernard
I'd love to see what you shoot with all that equipment and why.
I show an image or video with most posts, whether people like it or not, I put it out there and for reference.
IMO
BC
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I'd love to see what you shoot with all that equipment and why.
I show an image or video with most posts, whether people like it or not, I put it out there and for reference.
IMO
BC
Here are a few answers:
- I don't currently make money from photography, but I try to be very dedicated to achieving the best possible images of what I have the opportunity of shooting considering the constraints I have (family, work,...),
- I work in a different line of business not related to photography and I know what being a business professional means with regular 70+ hours working weeks. Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, I have a lot of respect for you and other top pros facing tough competitive business environments and having to deliver. I don't know if I would be able to do it were I to focus on photography as a profession,
- I post many images of what I shoot for the fun of it. Just check my Flickr link below and you will find a wide collection of images. I believe I am one of the contributors at LL posting the larger number of images in the threads dedicated to this,
- I photograph for a variety of reason such as creating beautiful images, documenting the world around me, serving my friends and relatives with memorable images of some life events I am part of,...
- My studio work is mostly private (and it may or may not remain private moving forward, we shall see, I just posted one example at the bottom of this post),
- I currently work with cameras produced by Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad, Arcaswiss, Apple, Ebony and lenses produced by Nikon, Sigma, Zeiss, Leica, Rodenstock, Pentax and Fuji. Other than Canon, whose equipment is not compatible with what I currently own, there are very few brands I am currently not using. So although I have been served very well by Nikon equipment till date (and I do think they produce the best 35mm DSLRs on the market for still photographers), I have no particular liking for them.
Hope it answers your questions? Here are a few recent random images to illustrate the post. ;)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/905/41400072854_2d597f7ac8_h.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1794/43902505871_55fb784bc7_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/882/39294259280_9d493c96eb_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/42015881741_66d84d3e19_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/838/42633505334_c286b3240f_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/902/39273297700_8e3c38cb0f_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/796/40297659064_e6026e157c_h.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4660/38851752530_c61c796ae1_h.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4743/40592277782_857a37a35a_h.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4757/26146000668_4cadaf34d9_h.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4692/38540787565_02330644e1_h.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4242/34828053504_f7249bb54c_h.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8462/29367437001_3e6d9a8376_h.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/32725456703_7a216a05d7_h.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Ulf,
I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.
cheers,
Bernard
That was actually not aimed at you, I was referring to FelixWu. Now regarding this brand competition it is good to see Profoto is catching up (and may even surpass in some situations) with broncolors cut off technology. I'm not a single brand guy, in fact I mix all sort of brands. With every brand you find some products that stand out and I am always open to new solutions. Regarding Briese, they certainly have their place with the focus system but I strongly suggest to keep away from their packs, they are stuck in the 80ties. Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money ;-) Cheers, Ulf
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Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money ;-) Cheers, Ulf
Thanks a lot Ulf, much appreciated.
I guess the freedom of shooting whatever I want is nice. The freedom to spend whatever I can afford on top notch equipment without having to care about ROI is nice too (that being helped by my very limited expenditures in cars these past 25 years...). But every coin has 2 sides. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1814/43164368855_8748375adc_h.jpg)
I found a young model willing to help dad test the new studio set up. The Hasselblad was already packed for a trip, so the D850 had to work a bit. ;)
Lighting is a main Para 88 to the right, Profoto Octobox as fill (both driven by the new Pro-10), Aladdin led as top/hair light and Profoto B1 as background light.
Advise most welcome. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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That was actually not aimed at you, I was referring to FelixWu. Now regarding this brand competition it is good to see Profoto is catching up (and may even surpass in some situations) with broncolors cut off technology. I'm not a single brand guy, in fact I mix all sort of brands. With every brand you find some products that stand out and I am always open to new solutions. Regarding Briese, they certainly have their place with the focus system but I strongly suggest to keep away from their packs, they are stuck in the 80ties. Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money ;-) Cheers, Ulf
I really hope the competition between companies will go more tougher so they can push to release better products one after another.
About 3-4 months back I had the opportunity working with two top assistants flew from China on an advertising shoot and when I asked what gears they prefer they both said Profoto for location and they would only use Bron in studio. On a two day shoot we used Bron Move for day one and Profoto B4 for day two and the experience was noticeably different. All of these packs were rental except my own B4. I recalled we had about 6packs and 10heads. The Profoto amount really shines on location while we had difficulties working with the Bron head amounts. They were just so tight to operate on the fly. Yes the move pack was significantly lighter than the B4 but with 8 photo assistants onset weight wasn’t that much of an issue at all.
I read on forum recently about Profoto will be updating its B2 I hope they can bring out a truly great product this time.
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I would think that the B4 is the next Profoto product due for an update.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would think that the B4 is the next Profoto product due for an update.
Cheers,
Bernard
I agree. But what’s there to update? Smaller size and lighter with significantly shorter flash duration, faster recycling, paired with HSS and LED enabled modeling lamp making it the worlds fastest location generator with TTL ? In the end they still wont sell a lot of those since the market is flooded with those OCF solutions (b1,b2,siros etc which are more affordable and gets the job done). B2 on the other hand seems to fit the recent Profoto direction which targets small to one man team and make a lot of revenue from it.
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I agree. But what’s there to update? Smaller size and lighter with significantly shorter flash duration, faster recycling, paired with HSS and LED enabled modeling lamp making it the worlds fastest location generator with TTL ? In the end they still wont sell a lot of those since the market is flooded with those OCF solutions (b1,b2,siros etc which are more affordable and gets the job done). B2 on the other hand seems to fit the recent Profoto direction which targets small to one man team and make a lot of revenue from it.
Yes, I would expect them to simply apply to the B4 the recent improvements applied to their other products: TTL compatibility, HSS, shorter duration,...
Cheers,
Bernard
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The Profoto amount really shines on location while we had difficulties working with the Bron head amounts. They were just so tight to operate on the fly. Yes the move pack was significantly lighter than the B4 but with 8 photo assistants onset weight wasn’t that much of an issue at all.
It sound like the assistants didn't have experience with the Bron modifiers and mount. There's nothing difficult about it. With large modifiers it's best if you're keeping the weight of the modifier supported by letting it hang below the head as you pull towards the head on the speed ring or base of a large modifier. Then just rotate it and it comes off easily.
I have used Broncolor and Profoto for 30+ years. Both systems have their strengths. I just ordered a Broncolor Move system after renting a Profoto B4 and a Move. Color shift was insignificant on both systems, about 350K according to my Minolta color meter. But power output was higher on the Move pack and it was just easier and lighter to use.
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I just ordered a Broncolor Move system after renting a Profoto B4 and a Move.
You didn't want to wait until Kina to see what both companies may come up with?
The Pro-B4 is now 6 years old and my bet would be that it will be updated sooner than later.
Anyway, your Move will still be excellent obviously so it may not be a big deal...
Cheers,
Bernard
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It sound like the assistants didn't have experience with the Bron modifiers and mount. There's nothing difficult about it. With large modifiers it's best if you're keeping the weight of the modifier supported by letting it hang below the head as you pull towards the head on the speed ring or base of a large modifier. Then just rotate it and it comes off easily.
I have used Broncolor and Profoto for 30+ years. Both systems have their strengths. I just ordered a Broncolor Move system after renting a Profoto B4 and a Move. Color shift was insignificant on both systems, about 350K according to my Minolta color meter. But power output was higher on the Move pack and it was just easier and lighter to use.
Keep in mind those were the rental units. The mechanism where you had to pull to detach the mount just became very tight after heavy use. Those guys definitely knew what they were doing.
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You didn't want to wait until Kina to see what both companies may come up with?
The only change coming to the Move system is firmware and I'll be able to have that updated on the one I just bought. If Broncolor updates anything it'll be the Siros.
I have Profoto Pro 6 Freeze 2400 and Pro 7 2400 in the studio and D1s. Unlike your B1s the D1s have their shortest duration at full power.
For short duration on location I use Profoto Acute Twin Tube heads with pairs of Acute 1200s. When I need anything faster I rent Broncolor. This Move system will be the first of at least 2 to replace the Acute systems.
Profoto is chasing the only real market of any size that's left, wedding photographers. The B1/B1X, features like TTL and modifiers like the big umbrellas with the diaper on it target the un-skilled. So I have no reason to expect they'll introduce anything at the show that'll be of interest to me.
Broncolor introduces new products when they're ready. They've never waited for trade shows.
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Keep in mind those were the rental units. The mechanism where you had to pull to detach the mount just became very tight after heavy use. Those guys definitely knew what they were doing.
So then the issue wasn't the Bron mount vs the Profoto mount. It was a rental company renting worn out equipment. It's pretty damn hard to bend those flanges on the Bron mount so that gear was past due replacement /repair time.
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To get shorter flash duration you need to use twin heads or flash tubes with three electrodes or a closed ring shape. The later draw a lot of amps which leads to faster aging of both, flash packs and tubes, another way is to use very high voltage like the big ones ones from Bläsing (2000Volts). Those cannot be electronically controlled though, no free lunch. We need to accept it is as good as it gets, we´ve reached the design limits a couple of years ago, nothing really groundbreaking new since broncolor´s Grafit.
I went back to re-read this thread because I joined it well after it migrated from the original post.
35 years ago we used big scary power packs and heads with linear tubes in the first studio I worked in but I can't remember the brand. I remember the name being some reference to 'sun' light. They went off with a bang, put out so much ozone you had to clear the room and stopped anything with their short duration. They were dangerous because of the high trigger voltage.
I'm not familiar with Bläsing. Sounds like something similar to what I worked with. Can you please give use details ?
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I went back to re-read this thread because I joined it well after it migrated from the original post.
35 years ago we used big scary power packs and heads with linear tubes in the first studio I worked in but I can't remember the brand. I remember the name being some reference to 'sun' light. They went off with a bang, put out so much ozone you had to clear the room and stopped anything with their short duration. They were dangerous because of the high trigger voltage.
I'm not familiar with Bläsing. Sounds like something similar to what I worked with. Can you please give use details ?
Pretty sure you will love your move. We didn't have any issues running them in snow / mountains and I have used them to light from a storage room with no mains power outlet or placed in a set so you do not see the power cord. I was really amazed how long it runs off a single battery. Its just the missing modelling light, but I'm sure that is to not cannibalise their own market. I also never had any problems with their mount, for me easier than Profotos rubber snatch. This Plastic B2 on the other hand, I use it often to add some accent light but don't get me started...
The Bläsing units sound similar to what you described, huge packs, filled with metal paper capacitors and charged to 2500Volts. They had been sold in 2500, 5000 and 10000Ws units and have been used for furniture, cars and big setups that have been photographed with large format cameras (like 8x10 or 5x7) that required a small aperture. They manufactured (or even invented) some great light shapers and studio equipment. I still use some of their stuff as there is nothing else which comes close in some rare applications. They are still handcrafted on special request but I doubt there are actually any made today. Not shown on their web but can see them here: http://www.snap-rent.de/de/licht/blitzlicht/blaesing/generatoren/blaesing-generator-10000-ws
https://www.blaesingblitz.de
BTW, if you are in the States it might have been Ascor strobes, probably even more legendary :-) http://www.dasilvaphoto.com/behind-the-exposure-blog/2015/3/18/on-the-make-repair-again
https://www.facebook.com/ImmortalsProject/posts/806787556005930:0
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BTW, if you are in the States it might have been Ascor strobes, probably even more legendary :-) http://www.dasilvaphoto.com/behind-the-exposure-blog/2015/3/18/on-the-make-repair-again
https://www.facebook.com/ImmortalsProject/posts/806787556005930:0
That's exactly what we had. Ascor 800 Sunlights. They were used with large hand built aluminum modifiers when shooting large sets on 8X10. They made a scary loud bang when they went off. I remember one shoot where we used 3 of them, 1 borrowed from another studio, to shoot 2 grand pianos. We all walked out of the room except for the guy with the cable release and he wore sound insulating ear protection like you use at a rifle range. There was a big exhaust fan turned on immediately after each shot to remove the ozone from the room.
Thank's very much for the information Ulf !