Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Joseph Kayne on March 09, 2016, 11:26:49 am
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I see this question has come up with both the P800 and the 3000 and I want to know if anyone has an update with any answers. I have experienced the same issue:
" I just love the output overall, the colors are spot on what I'm trying, the resolution is excellent and so on. But when examining the photos more closely I found a problem on which I'd like to have some opinions.
Printing on Canson Baryta Photographique, you can see some faint roller marks on the gloss of the paper. Not bad enough to be immediately visible but when you examine the print at an angle with a hardish light, you can easily see the faint, straight patterns of the rollers in the gloss at a slightly shallower angle (=closer to you) than the one of the light otherwise reflecting from the paper. Also they are visible at certain angles when the print is held vertically and the light source is almost directly above. Those are especially easy to find on the left side of an A3-sized print, though visible at the whole width of the print. The spacing and position match to the exit rollers visible on the output, so I'm assuming that they are causing these patterns. Mostly you can see them only in some very dark tones, but because I like to do much B&W stuff, I find them quite annoying - at least now when I've first spotted them..
The relevant(?) print driver settings are:
Epson Premium Semigloss as a media type setting
Full quality, no high speed/bi-directional in use
Tested paper thicknesses 3-5
Platen gap wide.
Other settings default.
Tried both fine art feed and the normal feed, no difference. Except that the fine art feed also leaves some easily visible scratches to rear side of the paper... Epson seems to be quite rough at it's paper handling! The rear side is not a problem for me anyway, and if it was, the normal feed seems to handle the Canson equally well. The roller marks are not visible on a matte media, or plain stuff obviously, will try some other papers when I've got a chance.
Anyone having any experience and/or solutions for the issue? I've tried to search both the forums and did the usual googleing, but not sure I've found any specific issue with the exit rollers."
and:
"I'm mostly thrilled with the new P800 but today I made 15x15 prints on 17x22 sheets using Canson's Baryta Photographique. On the third print I noticed a small series of parallel lines about an inch long starting near the top edge of the image and running about an inch into the photo. Clearly roller marks. I've tried adjusting the platten gap to Wide and changing the paper thickness from the default of 3 to 4--really bad--and to 2 which only made the marks farther apart. The lines only happen at the beginning of the image--the end of the sheet first out of the printer--and only on the top center. The rest of the image is clean.
Has anyone else experienced this and, if so, did you fix it? "
Updated answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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I've been making many test prints with this printer using a variety of Super A3 fine art papers using the Front Fine Art feed and had no such problems. Perhaps there is a defect in your printer. I recommend calling Epson Pro-Graphics tech support for this product and discussing with them.
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I've been making many test prints with this printer using a variety of Super A3 fine art papers using the Front Fine Art feed and had no such problems. Perhaps there is a defect in your printer. I recommend calling Epson Pro-Graphics tech support for this product and discussing with them.
I sent back 2 printers with the same issue. And the quoted sections in my original post were from others with the same problem. I have send a detailed email to Epson support and hopefully it finds its way to a good technician....
Thanks. Joe.
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I hope they respond positively to you. From my experience they usually do, especially with a new product and in particular - provided it is Epson paper being used when the problem occurs. Please let us know how it goes. Multiple exchange situations do happen, but eventually you'll get a good one. I had a similar multiple exchange experience with one of their office multi-function printers and we did get it all sorted out on the 4th round. So even three strikes and you're not necessarily out :-).
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I looked at the marks more closely and it seems to line up with the large roller that brings or draws the paper down towards the print head to start printing. There seems to be a rubber threaded roller above a plastic roller which draws or pinches the paper down. Thoughts?
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I've been battling roller marks on various printers for many years. I suspect that it's prevalent and it affects softer papers more than tougher, denser harder papers. Most of the time it's because others don't know how to look (or shine a raking light source across the print surface) to see the roller marks, but they are there. Once seen, it's very hard to un-see them! I had to modify my Canon iPF8400 printer to change the springs to weaker ones in the pinch roller clamp assembly. Early on, I modified a Canon iPF5000 by cannibalizing the rollers from a Canon iPF5100, Canon updated the roller design so it wouldn't mark paper. I've just heard from a good friend that his Epson P9000 is marking up Canson Rag Photographique paper (the Epson 9900 does this too, there are old roller-marks posts from 2009 on this forum), and he discovered that the difference in pressure the rollers are exerting is tremendous. We still don't know exactly how much pressure it's exerting. My original Canon springs applies just over 2 kg of force for each set of 3-pair rollers, which I estimate to exert anywhere from 120-180psi of pressure. The new springs are just under half as strong. I don't know enough about the P800 to give any advise, but it seems that without relatively invasive printer "surgery", or switching to a more durable paper (not an option for me, I want to use all my favourite papers), there is little else to be done.
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Same problem here on Canson Platine Fibre - tried all different feedings. Interestingly it only occurs on A4 and not on A3 or bigger. And it is also worse when you have a heavy load of ink (mainly dark blues) in the print. Tried two different P800 - same problem. Unfortunately it is not possible to cure it by applying a spray (Hahnemuehle Protective Spray).
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.............. I suspect that it's prevalent and it affects softer papers more than tougher, denser harder papers. Most of the time it's because others don't know how to look (or shine a raking light source across the print surface) to see the roller marks, but they are there.
Well, you may "suspect", and good you characterize it that way, because in principle this is a defect that should not characterize the products generally. I think the (admittedly imperfect) circumstantial evidence would support me on this hypothesis when you consider the number of such complaints we see on the Internet relative to the huge number of professional inkjet printers of all model types that have been on the market for the past fifteen years or more. It is a bit presumptuous on your part to assert that other people don't know how to look for defects on a print surface. Just for the record, I do not count myself as one of them. I say this with all due recognition of the personal experience you report, which I have no reason to doubt. In any event, reverting to the OP's problem, I still think his best option is to work with Epson on replacing his printer till he gets a good one.
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Well, you may "suspect", and good you characterize it that way, because in principle this is a defect that should not characterize the products generally. I think the (admittedly imperfect) circumstantial evidence would support me on this hypothesis when you consider the number of such complaints we see on the Internet relative to the huge number of professional inkjet printers of all model types that have been on the market for the past fifteen years or more. It is a bit presumptuous on your part to assert that other people don't know how to look for defects on a print surface. Just for the record, I do not count myself as one of them. I say this with all due recognition of the personal experience you report, which I have no reason to doubt. In any event, reverting to the OP's problem, I still think his best option is to work with Epson on replacing his printer till he gets a good one.
The printers from all three big companies generally feed paper without issue (no slippage and so no feed banding), and are generally well designed in that regard. Unfortunately many papers from Canson are relatively soft and mark easily. I have got an official response from Canon Japan that all printers which use pinch rollers to feed paper will certainly leave a mark one way or another, especially on some softer papers. That's not an unreasonable thing to say. Tougher papers like RC papers are generally fine. These marks are indeed not easy to see. I do not say this with contempt to my other luminary printing colleagues. I missed seeing them myself until the lighting circumstances were just right coincidentally and I happened to see it with a bit of luck. Re-loading a roll several times (say because of a feed skew error) can exacerbate the marks. If it's a single feed the marks can be so faint it's very nearly impossible to see except under strong directional light, 2 degrees or so from the surface of the paper, something one would never ever do ordinarily - many sorts of minor imperfections are prevalent anyway and reveal themselves in harsh lighting and in no way constitutes a real problem ordinarily. A luminary printing maven friend (whom I won't name) took quite a while to discover them for himself, simply because he never lit his prints that way to look at them. Even pointing out in person the marks to other discerning photographers and print makers, they take a while to see it for the first time. I don't know how the P800 roller clamps are designed, and how much pressure it's exerting on the paper. One needs to perform experiments to see how much pressure can be exerted on a given paper until pressure marks show up. Then the difficulty to discover how much pressure the P800 rollers are exerting. And how evenly. The P9000 is very uneven. The issue and evidence has been brought up to the top guys at Epson USA and they are looking into it now. I also initially thought it would be ideal to work with Canon to replace my printer, which they did, but it didn't solve the pressure marks. The pressures were simply too high for very soft paper like Platine and Rag Photographique owing to the inherent design and for obvious reasons, they won't change it. I hope the new Pro-4000/2000 printers have improved in this regard. There was one report that suggested Epson is likely aware of this issue, and the P10000/20000 printers are designed to handle the softer Legacy papers better.
I agree that since the printer is under warranty, Epson should take the responsibility to keep replacing the printer until a perfect one is in the hands of the OP. But if it's too much pressure being applied by the roller clamps due to an inherent design, then the marks may still remain after replacement. Macz5024 tried two P800s with Platine and still the prints show marks. Not a good sign!
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Same problem here on Canson Platine Fibre - tried all different feedings. Interestingly it only occurs on A4 and not on A3 or bigger. And it is also worse when you have a heavy load of ink (mainly dark blues) in the print. Tried two different P800 - same problem. Unfortunately it is not possible to cure it by applying a spray (Hahnemuehle Protective Spray).
Not surprised - Platine is even softer than Baryta Photographique, so if anything it is more easily marked. No, the marks will not go away with a spray. The paper fibers have been crushed/dented/deformed/buckled under the pressure of the pinch rollers.
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Not surprised - Platine is even softer than Baryta Photographique, so if anything it is more easily marked. No, the marks will not go away with a spray. The paper fibers have been crushed/dented/deformed/buckled under the pressure of the pinch rollers.
Any suggestions for "harder" papers that may have a close appearance to the Baryta papers like Hahn Photo Rag or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk?
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Any suggestions for "harder" papers that may have a close appearance to the Baryta papers like Hahn Photo Rag or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk?
It's difficult to say what would be tough enough, I don't know what kind of pressures the P800 is exerting on the paper surface. Photo Rag Baryta is quite tough already. Fine Art Baryta is probably another option. Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta is very dense and I like it most of all the baryta papers, and the surface looks like it's lacquered. Easily scratched however!
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Samuel,
As I said, I don't doubt your experience with the Canon printers you've used and I haven't. I have, however, by now printed extensively with both the Epson P800 and the Canon Pro-1000 using a variety of papers - Baryta, Platine, Matte in both printers. I re-examined about two dozen 13*19 inch prints just now under every conceivable angle of lighting and I can confirm with certainty that there are no roller marks or any marks of any kind. So the described behaviour is NOT supposed to be typical at least of these printers, and I was sent ordinary production units sealed off the shelf. As for the paper surfaces, there is a world of difference regarding whether the surface is printed or not. Once the ink hardens on these papers, the inked surface is very resistant to scruffs and scratches, unless it is really abused. Non-inked areas are another story, and those are sensitive.
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Thank you for sharing your experiences Mark. That's really valuable to know that your P800 and Pro-1000 isn't marking paper. I too was surprised to read this thread the first time. But that both Joseph and Macz have experienced issues isn't inspiring confidence! I've become somewhat allergic to roller marks of late, so pardon me if I come across as a little too obsessed about indentation-free prints. If I ever bought one of these printers I want one that doesn't chew up paper for sure.
Regarding scratch resistance, I too feel that there has been significant improvement with the new inks, but they are still relatively fragile. Heavily inked areas on matte papers like Canson Rag Photographique can be scuffed with relative ease. Sliding one print over another with no interleaving tissue is sufficient to mar the surface.
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Samuel, you keep sending me back to my samples to re-check and re-check, But that's fine. It's worth verifying. In fact, someone who will go un-named and has a deep knowledge of these papers did advise me that the Platine-type surface is susceptible to scruffing. So I just went back to my Platine output (in this instance Epson Legacy Platine, as I am preparing a review of the Legacy papers) and I did two tests: (i) severe: rub the back of one sheet against the inked surface of the underlying one as if using sand-paper on a piece of wood, and (ii) light: pass the sheets over each other with very moderate pressure points to simulate normal movement in a storage box that has a bit of wiggle room. I applied both tests against a shadow area and a mid-tone to highlight area. Then I examined the victimized print under every angle of illumination. The results are that looking at the prints the way one is supposed to look at them - straight-on - one doesn't see any impacts. Looking at them under the most unfavourable angle of lighting (the angle where everything about the surface "sticks out"), there is a slight evidence of scruffing from the severe test, and harder to detect but nonetheless present bit of evidence from the light test. So all in all, at least for this paper and printer combination, nothing I would get fussed about.
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Mark, thank you for the detailed observations and taking the time to verify the scratch resistance. My experience is much the same with the Canon inks, on Platine (I too find it easily scuffed) and also for a variety of fine art matte papers, and the textured varieties seem to be more easily scuffed at the texture 'peaks'. RC papers tend to be the toughest, but I do not care to use them anymore. This is a good reality check. For most general uses, I wouldn't get too fussed over it too. After all it's just some prints in a box, to take out every now and then and show some friends. But for prints I make for my clients, or my own artwork sold to a collector, they have to be flawless in every way possible, so even minuscule hairline scratches would be considered unacceptable then. These papers need to be handled with utmost care to preserve a pristine surface.
It would be nice if Epson's printers play well with Epson's own paper at least. I hope Joseph's and Macz's issues with roller marks is an isolated one. I do like the P800.
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The relevant(?) print driver settings are:
Epson Premium Semigloss as a media type setting
Full quality, no high speed/bi-directional in use
Tested paper thicknesses 3-5
Platen gap wide.
Other settings default.
I suspect this is irrelevant to the issue you're having, but thought that I would point out that the "media type" setting for Canson's profile for Photographique has changed to Premium Luster Paper for the P800 and P600. In prior printers (e.g. 3880, 4880, R3000) the profiles indicated "Premium Semigloss" as the media type.
Rand
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After 3 emails explaining the issue to Epson they told me to call them. i called them and I was just told the same stuff, place Platen to WIDE and use 5 for Paer thickness. Didn't Work. The Epson Ultra Premium Luster paper did not experience the iss but i suppose because it's a thinner paper. Too thin for my tastes. So, I am now going to FED EX some of the sample prints with the marks, and clean Hahn Photo Rag Baryta and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk to them. Maybe they can see the issue and try the thick medium paper on their printers. I'm very disappointed. Let's hope something comes of it. Just in case, what is Canons' equivalent printer to the Epson P800?.....
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Joseph, I think you'll need to send them samples on Epson thick papers. They won't respond on 3rd party papers. Been through this with them several times in the past. The Canon equivalent would be the Pro-1000, my review of which is published today on this website. Note that it has a maximum paper length of 23.4 inches in case this would be an issue for you.
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Joseph, I think you'll need to send them samples on Epson thick papers. They won't respond on 3rd party papers. Been through this with them several times in the past. The Canon equivalent would be the Pro-1000, my review of which is published today on this website. Note that it has a maximum paper length of 23.4 inches in case this would be an issue for you.
Thanks Mark. The guy in the phone told me to send in the media with issues....
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That's a change, and very good.
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By the way, what Epson thick papers are similar to Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and hahnemuhle Photo rag Baryta?
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By the way, what Epson thick papers are similar to Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and hahnemuhle Photo rag Baryta?
Legacy Platine and Legacy Baryta - which are Canson Platine and Canson Baryta Photographique repackaged.
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Legacy Platine and Legacy Baryta - which are Canson Platine and Canson Baryta Photographique repackaged.
So, I assume they would have the same issue?
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So, I assume they would have the same issue?
Most likely. Then you can prove to Epson that something really is wrong with your P800.
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Legacy Platine and Legacy Baryta - which are Canson Platine and Canson Baryta Photographique repackaged.
Can u buy them yet
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Legacy Platine and Legacy Baryta - which are Canson Platine and Canson Baryta Photographique repackaged.
Your evidence?
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Can u buy them yet
Roll yes, sheets larger than US Letter, no not yet. But don't worry yourself - this is a distraction. If Epson tech support is encouraging you to submit samples of roller marks on the paper you are using, just do that and wait to see what they come back with.
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Your evidence?
I'm not at liberty to share. It doesn't matter. If Legacy Platine and Fiber works on Joseph's P800, great. If they don't, Epson cannot say it's because his third party paper choices are incompatible with their printer, and he has good reason to get Epson to replace or fix his printer. Isn't that the more important issue?
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I'm not at liberty to share. It doesn't matter. If Legacy Platine and Fiber works on Joseph's P800, great. If they don't, Epson cannot say it's because his third party paper choices are incompatible with their printer, and he has good reason to get Epson to replace or fix his printer. Isn't that the more important issue?
Sorry - if you are not at liberty to share you probably also aren't at liberty to share the statement you made. I assume you understand it could make liars of Epson who publicly state on the back of the sample packs: "Working with famous European paper makers, art galleries and chemical engineers, Epson created the Legacy Paper line to be the finest papers available." This doesn't sound like repackaging to me - taken at face value. And what about legal implications in respect of any patents and copyrights that the original recipe holders retain for these products? Are these mills and manufacturers just collaborating with each other in a major con game? The paper industry is rather opaque (no pun intended) , but one would hope not.
The papers can look similar, they can feel similar, they can have similar physical specs in terms of thickness and mass, but yet they can still be different in subtle ways or under-the-hood. Anyhow, this is OT. I still think Joseph should do what the Epson rep said he should do, but I agree with your statement that if his printer produces the same defects on sheets of Epson Legacy paper it strengthens his case.
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Mark, you are of course at liberty to make any interpretation of my comments. I'm not the only person making the connection between Canson papers and the Legacy range, I'm sure you've noticed. If I'm wrong about the paper, fine, I stand corrected. I'm only interested in helping Joseph, not starting an argument about this.
Joseph, so try these new Legacy papers, so Epson has no excuse to push the blame to third party papers that are incompatible with your printer. In particular, Legacy Fiber and Platine are particularly soft, so if anything those papers may help you reproduce the issue on Epson's own papers. Please let us know how it goes with Epson!
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Mark, you are of course at liberty to make any interpretation of my comments. I'm not the only person making the connection between Canson papers and the Legacy range, I'm sure you've noticed. If I'm wrong about the paper, fine, I stand corrected. I'm only interested in helping Joseph, not starting an argument about this.
Yes of course I've noticed, and insofar as I am preparing a review of these papers I'm examining all this objectively and rather carefully. So it wouldn't surprise me to see this discussion re-surface anon, but it will be in the context of tangible information. We can leave it at that for now, and wish Joseph the best in getting his printer issue resolved.
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After 4 years of using the R3000, more or less successfully, to print on the 320 gram Harman Gloss Baryta, latterly 'Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta ' ( and cursed be the day that Hahnemuhle took over distribution of the Harman paper as now the letter size is invariably and grossly curled ) as well as the Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art matte paper, at 325 grams, the R3000, even after careful cleaning, has now started and persisted in delivering strike marks and other ink marks on thick media, including Epson Exhibition Fiber and Ilford Gold Silk as well as the Harman. ( I haven't switched over to matte black and larger papers since the troubles began.) There are strikes on the edges of the paper ( attributable to residual curl after straightening efforts ) as well as marks and some smudging in the middle of the sheets. This happened regardless of whether initial loading was successful or the paper was reloaded after several paper skews.
The Epson tech, informed that nozzle check printed clean and that thinner papers ( Epson Premium Luster ) also printed clean, only heavier papers affected, didn't have a solution, didn't suggest platen or drying-time adjustments.
I gave up and ordered a P800 and was planning on supplying myself with the raved-about Canson Baryta Photographique. Only subsequently did I come across the vintage discussion here about banding with Epson R3000 and Canson Baryta: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=58597.0
Now it appears that some ( see -careful language ) P800s have similar issues. I still have the R3000 and mean to experiment with the printer settings.
I think that, unless it's got its head in the sand, Epson must have been aware of the issue before production of the P series.
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FYI...still working with Epson on this issue....
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I've worked in detail with Epson. The short of it is that I have to used the front manual feeder. There is some issue with using the Auto Sheet feeder in that the intake roller puts too much pressure on the softer papers. They will be relaying that to the development group.
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Likely a good outcome. At the start of this thread you mentioned that you are printing with Canson BP. I would ONLY feed that paper through the FFA feeder, not the auto feeder, and same for any other paper of equivalent weight/thickness or heavier. Please do let us know whether that solves your problem.
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I see this question has come up with both the P800 and the 3000 and I want to know if anyone has an update with any answers. I have experienced the same issue:
" I just love the output overall, the colors are spot on what I'm trying, the resolution is excellent and so on. But when examining the photos more closely I found a problem on which I'd like to have some opinions.
Printing on Canson Baryta Photographique, you can see some faint roller marks on the gloss of the paper. Not bad enough to be immediately visible but when you examine the print at an angle with a hardish light, you can easily see the faint, straight patterns of the rollers in the gloss at a slightly shallower angle (=closer to you) than the one of the light otherwise reflecting from the paper. Also they are visible at certain angles when the print is held vertically and the light source is almost directly above. Those are especially easy to find on the left side of an A3-sized print, though visible at the whole width of the print. The spacing and position match to the exit rollers visible on the output, so I'm assuming that they are causing these patterns. Mostly you can see them only in some very dark tones, but because I like to do much B&W stuff, I find them quite annoying - at least now when I've first spotted them..
The relevant(?) print driver settings are:
Epson Premium Semigloss as a media type setting
Full quality, no high speed/bi-directional in use
Tested paper thicknesses 3-5
Platen gap wide.
Other settings default.
Tried both fine art feed and the normal feed, no difference. Except that the fine art feed also leaves some easily visible scratches to rear side of the paper... Epson seems to be quite rough at it's paper handling! The rear side is not a problem for me anyway, and if it was, the normal feed seems to handle the Canson equally well. The roller marks are not visible on a matte media, or plain stuff obviously, will try some other papers when I've got a chance.
Anyone having any experience and/or solutions for the issue? I've tried to search both the forums and did the usual googleing, but not sure I've found any specific issue with the exit rollers."
and:
"I'm mostly thrilled with the new P800 but today I made 15x15 prints on 17x22 sheets using Canson's Baryta Photographique. On the third print I noticed a small series of parallel lines about an inch long starting near the top edge of the image and running about an inch into the photo. Clearly roller marks. I've tried adjusting the platten gap to Wide and changing the paper thickness from the default of 3 to 4--really bad--and to 2 which only made the marks farther apart. The lines only happen at the beginning of the image--the end of the sheet first out of the printer--and only on the top center. The rest of the image is clean.
Has anyone else experienced this and, if so, did you fix it? "
Updated answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Hello Joseph!
I realize that this thread hasn't been updated in a while. I'm a new member here, and I've also just recently purchased a P800 printer from Epson. I'm having the same problem with faint roller marks on Canson Platine Fibre Rag (A3 size) - parallel roller marks throughout the length of the printed surface.
My retailer here in Munich was nice enough to send my faulty printouts to Epson, and five days later told me to call Epson support for further assistance.
So: Yesterday I was on the phone with Epson Germany, and they told me a few things... First, they recommended selecting a different paper type in the driver (which I tried afterwards, setting it to "Legacy Platine", no change in the results), then they told me to "play with" the settings for "Drying Time per Print Head Pass" and "Paper Feed Adjustment" (which I also did to some extend - I'm not willing to waste a whole Box of Platine to try every setting... - no change in the results). Finally it was suggested to me that what I'm seeing in my printouts is "within the specification of the printer", which kind of made me furious inside.
In the end, it was suggested to me that I send them a sheet of the paper in question along with my file so that they can try it on their P800. What I'm hoping for is that their printer will not be able to reproduce the issue, proving my claim that my unit is faulty, leading to them replacing my printer.
Worst case: same issue happens on their printer, they tell me: "Use Epson paper, this is not our problem." In that case I'd have to wait for their Legacy Platine paper to become available - I hear it's somewhat similar to Canson Platine - and see if my P800 produces roller marks on their paper, which in turn would make my case stronger.
I've been saving up and looking forward to purchasing this printer for months now, same goes for using the Canson papers that I fell in love with at photokina this year (special shoutout to Robert Rodriguez Jr., who made it a blast!), and now I'm having nightmares about this whole experience... :(
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Big salute from Germany!
Jean-Marc
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Jean-Marc,
I've been using a P800 for the better part of a year and have had no issues with visible roller marks on the paper. I've used quite a variety of Epson and non-Epson media in it, because I test various papers for my contributions to this website. I am therefore given to suggest that if these roller marks are quite visible, there is an issue with your unit and by the end of the process with Epson perhaps they should replace it if they come to the same conclusion. It is important for them to get this right, because they are facing two options: either the problem is generic to the model, which would be difficult for them, or there is an issue with your particular printer or how you are using it. Either way, important for you and them to get to the bottom of it. It is good that they have asked to see a sample of the problem you are having. This means they are taking you and the problem seriously, as they should - and from my experience usually do. Please keep us informed on this thread how it works out.
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Mark - pizza wheel marks on Epson P800s are common, I have talked to a guy from Epson service who confimed... (construction internally identical to 3880) My own P800 also makes them. Non visible on matt or typical PE RC paper, but a problem with barytas and FB gloss.
Jean Marc - if Canson is a problem for Epson service, you can try Epson Traditional Photo Paper. My P800 almost makes no marks on glossy/pearl standard photo papers, but on Traditional it is quite bad. And this is Epson paper so they shoud accept your compliant ;-).
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Mark - pizza wheel marks on Epson P800s are common, I have talked to a guy from Epson service who confimed... (construction internally identical to 3880) My own P800 also makes them. Non visible on matt or typical PE RC paper, but a problem with barytas and FB gloss.
I don't know what "common" means in this context. I don't see such problems with my P800 and I print extensively with a range of baryta-type papers - both alpha-cellulose and cotton rag substrate. I've seen at most half a dozen complaints about it in this Forum, and Epson sells many of these printers world-wide. That's why I think where it does occur, the people who have such units should get them exchanged while the warranty is still in effect.
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For me, "common" means that it is visible/"hearable" in the community of users, on forums or when you talk personally to owners, much more frequent than other issues. E.g. similar to x900 printhead clogging issue, but I belive that in this case, not that common ;-). I do not work for Epson so I do not know statistics for this issue.
When I have talked to Epson service guy he said that there was no mechanism he can tune for paper feed to minimise pizza wheel marks, similar to mark form paper intake rubber wheel - they just work properly or not.
To make things clear, I love Epson printers, I own 3 of them and have selected P800 over Pro-1000.
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Mine are gone.
I was having head (not pizza wheel) marks notably in softer papers such as Canson Baryta Photographique. These were in the form of parallel an inch or so whitish marks, separated by 1 or 2 mm vertically, and running often for several inches.
Adjusting the drying time to 5, the paper thickness to 6, and platen to "wide" completely resolved it. Haven't had a single mark in 2 months.
Interesting, thicker papers such as Moab Juniper Baryta or Epson Legacy Baryta did not need a 6 paper thickness.
Still in love with my P800.
mike
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Jean-Marc,
I've been using a P800 for the better part of a year and have had no issues with visible roller marks on the paper. I've used quite a variety of Epson and non-Epson media in it, because I test various papers for my contributions to this website. I am therefore given to suggest that if these roller marks are quite visible, there is an issue with your unit and by the end of the process with Epson perhaps they should replace it if they come to the same conclusion. It is important for them to get this right, because they are facing two options: either the problem is generic to the model, which would be difficult for them, or there is an issue with your particular printer or how you are using it. Either way, important for you and them to get to the bottom of it. It is good that they have asked to see a sample of the problem you are having. This means they are taking you and the problem seriously, as they should - and from my experience usually do. Please keep us informed on this thread how it works out.
Mark,
Epson left me a voicemail message stating the following: The sheet of Canson Platine Fibre Rag (A3) that I sent them showed the same marks coming out of their printer. Therefore there is nothing wrong with my unit, and they will neither replace it nor look into it further - this is "normal behaviour" (!!!!) apparently... I was told that especially in dark (/black) areas of a print, these marks are indeed normal.
WOW. So this is, as you suggested, generic to the model. But Epson do not seem to care. I'm contacting my vendor, hoping they'll exchange my Epson for a Pro1000, which does not seem to have this sort of issue (at least this is what Google tells me...)
Anyways... MERRY CHRISTMAS!! ;)
Jean-Marc
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In that case he should have told you there is something wrong with BOTH units. I just haven't seen such marks on any of the papers I've used in the SCP-800, but I had a lot of trouble with Canson Platine Fibre Rag in my 4900 - lots of clogging from paper particulates so I won't even try that paper in my P800. But I have used Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Hahn Photo Rag Baryta Epson Legacy Baryta Epson Legacy Fibre and a bunch of other papers I've tested in it and never had this experience. Perhaps there is something with that particular paper. Are you getting these marks from other papers as well? If I were you I would do some testing on several other papers and if the problem persists escalate this issue. It is indeed surprising and disconcerting that an Epson representative would tell you such defective behaviour is normal.
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Talking about Canson - I just ran several sheets of the new Baryta Prestige (340gsm) through my P800, and I did get roller marks, in the darkest areas, especially at the top center of the print. Some are not that subtle. Adjusting the paper thickness to 0.8 mm seemed to take care of it. I think Prestige is kind of pushing it in terms of what I can feed through my P800 without issues. Also, I did get some corner catching (top right when feeding), and one or two "paper skewed" errors - which I never got with the lighter (310gsm) Baryta Photographique.
Wonder if this info is relevant to the post above?
mike
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Talking about Canson - I just ran several sheets of the new Baryta Prestige (340gsm) through my P800, and I did get roller marks, in the darkest areas, especially at the top center of the print. Some are not that subtle. Adjusting the paper thickness to 0.8 mm seemed to take care of it. I think Prestige is kind of pushing it in terms of what I can feed through my P800 without issues. Also, I did get some corner catching (top right when feeding), and one or two "paper skewed" errors - which I never got with the lighter (310gsm) Baryta Photographique.
Wonder if this info is relevant to the post above?
mike
I shall be testing the Canson Baryta Prestige over the coming weeks in both a P800 and a Pro-1000 and will report back whether I encounter either of the issues you mention. On the P800, which paper feed were you using and how did you set the Platen Gap?
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Mark, I am very much looking forward to your review!
My settings form Canson Prestige:
Drying Time per Print Head Pass: 5
Paper Thickness: 8
Platen Gap: Wide
I found Prestige to be just a very smidgen brighter that Photographique, with very slightly more saturated blues and blue-violets. I can see that because my photography is abstract, of light shining through dichroic filters, prisms, so I do get very highly saturated non-landscapey colors.
I do like the paper, though, it feels good in the hand, and the surface is more upscale, so to say, than CIBP.
I did make a huge mistake though, and I hope others don't emulate this - I could only find 11x17 sheets, so for testing I cut say 10 sheets in half to play with the resulting 8.5 x 11. I did use fresh x-acto blades, but still, never realized how messy it is to cut through Barium Sulphate :-)
mike
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That's useful information Mike - many thanks for the details. As for cutting paper - if you will be needing to do this often I recommend a Rotatrim Mastercut II Professional model. They aren't cheap, but they operate flawlessly.
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In that case he should have told you there is something wrong with BOTH units. I just haven't seen such marks on any of the papers I've used in the SCP-800, but I had a lot of trouble with Canson Platine Fibre Rag in my 4900 - lots of clogging from paper particulates so I won't even try that paper in my P800. But I have used Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Hahn Photo Rag Baryta Epson Legacy Baryta Epson Legacy Fibre and a bunch of other papers I've tested in it and never had this experience. Perhaps there is something with that particular paper. Are you getting these marks from other papers as well? If I were you I would do some testing on several other papers and if the problem persists escalate this issue. It is indeed surprising and disconcerting that an Epson representative would tell you such defective behaviour is normal.
Just for the record I've been using Canson Platine Fibre Rag both in roll and cut sheet form in the SCP-800 without any problems so far....but I'll be wary.
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Rotatrim > tx Mark, I do have one :) will try and see if it gets cleaner results!
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BTW, haven't been able to find Canson Prestige in 8.5 x 11 yet ???
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It is being manufactured in that size, but availability may still be limited - I'm not sure.
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I haven't had issue w/ normal CIBP on a Rotatrim but the Platine, upon close examination of the cut edges, looks like shards of glass right along the edge. It produces a fair amount of that type dust. I usually run a gloved finger along the edge to knock them down.
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Can I return to roller marks? I've recently discovered that my 3880 has one. Although I've had this printer for a couple of years, I only recently discovered it because it was the first time that I'd printed borderless on 17" Canson Platine. The one and only roller mark is on the right side of the print about 3/4" from the edge, i.e. from the edge that is furthest from the capping station as the page is printing. So it only comes into play when printing to the full width of the printer's capability (and probably only on softer papers). Given that it's only one roller, and that the printer is out of warranty, I wonder whether the printer would function without that roller?
The other thing I've noticed is that the roller mark seems to fade over time. I've had one print sitting here for a week or two, and in looking at it again today, I'm sure that the mark is much less noticeable, like hardly at all. Even when looking for it it's very hard to find for much of the length of the print. Has anyone noticed roller marks gradually disappear?
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the shaft that each wheel rides on (or the pair of wheels) is actually a spring so that the wheels can move up/down. check that the springs in question aren't contaminated w/ dried ink etc which could prevent the wheel from moving down.
I dont think removal of one or actually a number of the wheels will cause any functional problem (YMMV)
Yes, I've seen that the marks usually do minimize after a while.
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Thanks, that's really helpful. I just need to figure out which particular roller is causing the issue.
I did try the front feed option suggested in this thread, but ended up with a nasty paper jam as the paper I was using got caught on the way out. I have a hunch that this is an area of difference between the 3880 and P800. On the P800 you are supposed to use the front feed in place of the rear missing feed (although I read here somewhere that you can also use the roll feeder slot on the P800 for sheets), whereas it seems that on the 3800, the front feed must be only for thick and rigid media. In any case the available print area is smaller when using the front feed, so it's not an option on the 3880 for borderless. I just have to find a way to minimise the effect of that one problematic roller, or wait until the mark eventually disappears.
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Unfortunately I too am one of those who has had the pizza wheel issue on my P800 and primarily with Canson Platine and Baryta papers. The Epson papers are much better but still leave marks. Seems to be a fundamental design flaw. How can you market a printer as fine art if your device leaves marks on the print? I returned my first printer for a replacement and it too produced noticeable pizza wheel marks. I eventually returned that as well and am saving up for a p6000 or p7000 :-) My understanding is that they do not use a wheel feeding mechanism so the issue should exist.
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Unfortunately I too am one of those who has had the pizza wheel issue on my P800 and primarily with Canson Platine and Baryta papers. The Epson papers are much better but still leave marks. Seems to be a fundamental design flaw. How can you market a printer as fine art if your device leaves marks on the print? I returned my first printer for a replacement and it too produced noticeable pizza wheel marks. I eventually returned that as well and am saving up for a p6000 or p7000 :-) My understanding is that they do not use a wheel feeding mechanism so the issue should exist.
If it were a fundamental design flaw, I would expect to see it on my P800 as well. But I don't. I just ran another 13*19 through it to make a final check on this issue. I used Epson Legacy Baryta paper, fed it through the printer from the roll feed forward to the front of the Front Fine Art loading tray, let it load in the usual way and clicked Print. The driver setting was for Wide, paper thickness 4. Looking at the print from any lighting angle and in any direction, I could find no evidence of any paper transport markings of any kind. This confirms previous experience with 17*22 sheets and Letter size sheets. Therefore I am led to think that this is not a fundamental or generic defect and those owners of these printers who are experiencing this problem should have a discussion with Epson about causes and remedies.
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Hi guys, quick update as I just got off the phone with my dealer.
Epson refused to do ANYTHING about my issue, telling me to contact the paper manufacturer for further assistance and tips on settings.
So my dealer, who just gave me a phone call, told me that all his efforts to get Epson or anyone else in the supply chain to help me out were to no avail. BUT the dealer is going to exchange my unit for a Canon Pro-1000, which made me quite happy as this was the product I was wishing I had bought since the marks appeared.
This made my anger towards Epson turn into the conclusion that I'm simply not going to buy any Epson product ever again. Bummer!
Onto a new adventure then...
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who is the dealer? that's a really nice thing they did.
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It's Foto Sauter in Munich, they are indeed very nice people to work with and were always on my side with this issue. I'm going to try to make the exchange happen today and will report back with a short comment when the PRO-1000 is printing ;) My feedback in this thread is kind of finished once I returned the P800, so I don't wanna stretch it too much ;)
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EXAMPLE IMAGE ATTACHED!
The pizza wheel marks are real and do exist. I'm a fine art printing professional of 20+ years. In my shop ( high end premedia - prepress - digital content production) currently I have 2 epson P90000's 2 epson 9900's and a P800. I've been through dozens of epsons over the years.
(http://imgur.com/a/TPJI0)
The P800 will leave sprocket feed marks on most robust glossy or semi glossy smooth stocks. I'll attach a picture where you can see. They are spaced around an inch apart along the entire paper feed path. It doesn't matter if you use the sheet feeder, front feed, or thick feed paths. Platen width, ink drying slowed down per pass, etc etc... The marks are there. Also, I picked this P800 up late in the game, so IMO it's not an initial design flaw that was corrected early in production. I think a bean counter said we're sticking with what we got, 90% of users won't see it. My gut says select epson ambassadors, reviewers, and industry notables probably got a machine that was "tweaked" or within a tight tolerance spec so it wouldn't show this overlooked design error. As others have mentioned, it shows it's ugly head most notably in solid heavy ink areas. Areas of mixed detail such as branches, rocks, and other areas that have a wide variation of ink density and texture mask the small sprocket perforations that are occurring on the papers texture. I've worked with Epson tech support with no positive outcome. My review of the printer is #1 on the BH site. I've spent hundreds on ink and high end fine art papers trying to mitigate this problem. Epson, if your reading, please let me return this printer for a P5000 plus change. I love your printers, my 9900's have served me well. Unfortunately, the P800 is fatally flawed.
Stocks I prefer to use, and all have the same issue with the pizza wheel sprocket marks.
Ultra Premium Photo Paper Gloss
Epson Metallic Photo Glossy
Epson Exhibition Fiber Soft Gloss
Moab Slickrock Metallic Silver
Moab Juniper Baryta Rag 305
Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk
Best,
Matt Anderson
www.mattandersonphotography.com
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I am having the same problem that Matt Anderson describes, but with a P600 which I bought in January of '16. Just before it was out of warranty, the photo black print head died and they sent me a replacement printer. The replacement had a feed problem -- just wouldn't take anything via the front freed tray. So they sent me a second replacement and this one shows these pinwheel marks. With the other two P600s I never noticed if there were pinwheel marks. I've been using Canson Platine Fibre Rag mostly but have also tried Canson Photogloss Premium RC. The dots seem less noticeable on the Photogloss and changing settings to 5 for drying time and 6 for paper thickness may have eased the problem a bit, but it's hard to tell given the weird angles one has to use to see this problem. Epson is now sending me some Epson paper to test.
Epson's support people have been very helpful but this is getting beyond annoying.
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I have been dealing with a roller mark issue and the Epson 3880 for some time. It involves an exotic material that is not relevant to this discussion and I was searching the internet for the "roller mark" topic to see if I could dig up any additional indicators, when I found this thread.
It was in reading this thread that I learned there was a more or less universal roller mark problem with less exotic materials and occurring across printer brands, as referenced by several persons, here. Until now, I thought a roller mark issue with HP brand printers that I solved several years ago was unique to that brand and that what I was experiencing with the 3880 and the aforementioned exotic material, was a one-off thing of no interest to anyone but me.
I have the answer, at least for one printer brand and it is most likely an indicator for the other two. First, a little history.
I had an HP B9180 (and its eight replacements under warranty in less than three years) that was producing roller marks on prints made on a variety of matte, inkjet coated papers, primarily in the heaviest blacks. It was not occasional and quite ruinous. (And BTW, some here mentioned they thought the problem was not common. Yes, it is. The problem is that most people don't examine prints very closely and miss the roller marks. I have said "yes it does" while at the same moment pointing roller marks out to people on their very own HP prints, before they actually saw them.)
With HP printers these marks tend to show in the darkest areas where ink deposit is heaviest. HP knows about the problem, but they won't admit it exists. They count instead on the the lack of observation on the part of most of their users. They of course said the problem must be with the brands of paper that were not their own. (Sound familiar?)
With HP printers, the roller marks are the result of heavy ink deposits having insufficient time to dry before being run over by rollers in the machine. After I realized this, the solution was simple and is 100% effective:
During the entire printing process, stand in front of the stupid printer with a handheld hair dryer and blow warm air into the printing path, moving the hair dryer back and forth, across the printer. No roller marks, ever again. Of course, the printer I had did not offer a more reasonable solution: increase the drying time between passes. If your printer has that option, try it first.
Now the Canon printers. I have never owned a Canon printer and have no clue. Try the two options above first, before moving on to the Epson options.
EPSON OPTIONS
Roller marks with Epson printers ARE NOT the result of rollers marching through still-wet ink as they are with HP. At least not with the material that has been driving me nuts and therefore, probably not with your materials, either. AND, Epson printers are designed differently. There aren't any rollers to pass through after ink has been deposited. At least not in the 3800/3880/P600 series.
I ran tests with only two thin lines of black ink down the edges of the print area, parallel to the paper path and at the outside edges of the image area. Roller marks occurred on the material, in between the lines, where no image at all was printed. So, if you are going to get roller marks on the material you are using, it will happen even if you print no image at all. However, ink deposit does of course make the marks far more noticeable.
With the Epson printers, try the hair dryer trick and try increasing the drying time between passes, if your printer has that option. Someone mentioned somewhere in this thread that increasing drying time did have a positive effect.
Recent communication with another researcher using the same exotic material I mentioned originally suggests strongly that this problem, at least with Epson brand printers, is related to relative humidity. I live in dry Arizona, he lives in the NorthWest where he practically needs SCUBA gear 24/7. His roller marks are infinitely worse than mine.
Put a dehumidifier in your work area if you can, AND take a hair drier to your paper BEFORE you print on it. And brush it off first, too. Paper debris doesn't help this problem.
As I understand it now, all three printer manufacturers have this problem and all three refuse to acknowledge it, so the only thing that will get them off the dime is a lot of complaining. Most people using these printers do not see the roller marks on their prints. Point them out to them.