Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Mark Lindquist on February 05, 2016, 03:15:18 pm
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I recently had someone ask me if HP will be continuing to support the Z3200 series printers and if so, for how long.
You know, I haven't got a clue. If anyone out there knows, or knows someone who knows, please share that information.
Most people who have these printers would rather fight than switch, and it is the same for me.
No need in extolling the virtues of the Z series printers here. If you have one, you know, if you don't you likely don't care.
Let us know if you have any insight:
Will HP do another iteration of the Z Series Printers? or are we all done?
Thanks - very much appreciate any and all input.
Mark
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I'd love to know too, and like you I'd never give up my 3200
Neal
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I had understood HP was out of the fineart printer market. I had the impression, quite wrongly maybe, that this had been a consensus view for a while.
I owned a 24" Z3200, and still marvel at how it always worked. Having since moved to Epson, I now particularly marvel at how the HP worked...
John-
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I had understood HP was out of the fineart printer market. I had the impression, quite wrongly maybe, that this had been a consensus view for a while.
I owned a 24" Z3200, and still marvel at how it always worked. Having since moved to Epson, I now particularly marvel at how the HP worked...
John-
The 24 and 44" Z3200-PS versions are still in the HP catalog. It is not unusual for HP to keep a product available for a long time after its introduction.
http://www8.hp.com/nl/nl/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/z3200.html
44" model pricing in the market is about 1200 Euro lower than mentioned there. I guess in the US it will be lower even.
Inks are partly shared by more recent models in the Designjet range so I expect that the ink production will continue too.
For the jobs I have to do the printer does not need to be enhanced. I know that printer and its habits and not any new one.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Looks like they will continue to support Z series printers but not sure for how long.. hope below link helps,
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/support-services.html
Adeel
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Looks like they will continue to support Z series printers but not sure for how long.. hope below link helps,
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/support-services.html
Adeel
I'd be hesitant to buy a Z3200 printer at the moment. They're great printers - very reliable and with a fantastic inkset - but who knows how much longer they'll be supported?
Canon's iPF6300/6400/6450 are a good alternative - also very reliable, and the Lucia EX inkset exceeds the colour gamut of the HP while equalling it for longevity on many media. You can pick up 6300s and 8300s cheaply second-hand now, and they use the same inkset and print at the same resolution with the same image quality as the newer 6400/6450/8400.
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I'd be hesitant to buy a Z3200 printer at the moment. They're great printers - very reliable and with a fantastic inkset - but who knows how much longer they'll be supported?
Yeah, I don't know. The beauty of the HP Z3200ps is that it has the embedded spectrophotometer, the micro-droplet self-maintaining anti-clog system, and as you mentioned a superior inkset. It's like a sports car in comparison to the big Epsons or Canons. It will crank out some excellent work, and be able to just change papers and make a new profile at the drop of a hat.
None of the other printers can do that unless custom profiles are in a library and whoever is using the printer has the equipment and ability to make instant custom profiles in-house. With the Z Series printers, load any paper, calibrate and profile and ready to go usually under 20 - 25 minutes. With consistent excellence.
It is a little finicky, but all the large format printers are.
I believe they will continue to make inks for it.
Having been through these printers part by part, they use a lot of off the shelf parts so that a lot of it is replaceable. There seem to be a lot of parts available for them, either OEM or secondary market, either on eBay, or through distributors and resellers.
They are not that difficult to work on actually.
I've been thinking of getting another 44" Z3200 ps and keep it in the crate in case they stop making them. Problem is the ink and printheads would expire, but I could just use them and continue to have printheads and inks available as time marches on.
I hate the thought of going to another printer when this printer does so much, sips ink, and produces fantastic output and doesn't weigh a ton. Also, has printheads that are easy to change and are really inexpensive. So many advantages to it over other printers, (not to say that the others are not great also.)
I wish HP would just do an update to the Z3200ps like they did to the Z3200 years back.
If they won't do that, than please, just keep making the printers and supporting them.
I'd really like to hear if anyone has heard anything from HP Corporate about their future plans in this market.
Mark
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Yeah, I don't know. The beauty of the HP Z3200ps is that it has the embedded spectrophotometer, the micro-droplet self-maintaining anti-clog system, and as you mentioned a superior inkset. It's like a sports car in comparison to the big Epsons or Canons. It will crank out some excellent work, and be able to just change papers and make a new profile at the drop of a hat.
The automatic profile is nice, but hardly a deal-breaker for the others. It's not exactly difficult to run a strip through a separate spectro to generate a profile - and, that way, you can generate a profile based on the final, dried, coated product. Also, I believe the Canon iPF6450 has an inbuilt spectro too.
It's a very nice inkset, but the Lucia EX inkset used by the iPF6300/6400/8300/8400 was tested to have the same longevity on many media, at Aardenburg. Not sure how the new Lucia Pro set compares in this regard. Also, I believe Epson's HDX inkset has more than doubled its longevity over the previous HDR inkset, simply by replacing the yellow. I don't regard Epson's printers as being suitable for anything other than a print shop which prints every day, though - they run well when used constantly, but, when used intermittently, as is the case with most fine art photographers, they tend to clog. The Canons, on the other hand, do well when used intermittently.
I believe they will continue to make inks for it.
CMYK (and the light versions), certainly - after all, they're used by all the other HP printers too. I'm not so sure about the other colours, though.
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The automatic profile is nice, but hardly a deal-breaker for the others. It's not exactly difficult to run a strip through a separate spectro to generate a profile - and, that way, you can generate a profile based on the final, dried, coated product. Also, I believe the Canon iPF6450 has an inbuilt spectro too.
The Canons, on the other hand, do well when used intermittently.
CMYK (and the light versions), certainly - after all, they're used by all the other HP printers too. I'm not so sure about the other colours, though.
I wasn't aware that the Canon printers had optional embedded spectrophotometers. Good to know. For the record, the Z Series printers are capable of measuring coated dried substrates as well. There are many options and different ways to run charts, do whatever you want to them and run them back through to read them. In many cases, however, for many papers, the waiting time is adequate. If you want to let a paper dry overnight or 24 hours, or whatever, it's the same - easy to just have the printer read the chart whenever.
You have some good points shadow blade and I appreciate the information and your perspective, but regarding inks and support, I really would not just count HP out when it comes to future offerings. Guessing that they will or won't continue to make the inks is not enough proof to simply write them off, when the company has a long history of long time manufacture of their inks.
You could be right, but until I see evidence of any such sort, I'll be sticking with my Z series printers. I'm glad you like the Canons - I have some Canon Pro Series printers as well in our studios, and they're great, but I really prefer the HP's.
Just curious, do you have any evidence or any special knowledge that HP will discontinue manufacturing the other colors?
Thanks -
Mark
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It's a very nice inkset, but the Lucia EX inkset used by the iPF6300/6400/8300/8400 was tested to have the same longevity on many media, at Aardenburg. Not sure how the new Lucia Pro set compares in this regard. Also, I believe Epson's HDX inkset has more than doubled its longevity over the previous HDR inkset, simply by replacing the yellow.
Not really, Hp generally outperforms the Canon Lucia ink set due to its balanced fading performance and this shows up in the Aardenburg testing as well as WIR test results. However, when paired with an underperforming media, the superior HP Vivera pigments won't buy you much that the other pigmented ink sets can't deliver in terms of light fade resistance. Nevertheless, if you look at all the data on the Aardenburg website, it's a fair conclusion to rank HP's Vivera pigments as the very highest rated ink set in overall light fastness, followed by Canon Lucia, and then by any Epson printers that use the K3 yellow. The new HDX yellow in the latest Epson ink sets may change the rank order, but that remains to be seen. As pigment longevity improves, the battleground shifts more and more to the properties of the chosen media.
I don't regard Epson's printers as being suitable for anything other than a print shop which prints every day, though - they run well when used constantly, but, when used intermittently, as is the case with most fine art photographers, they tend to clog. The Canons, on the other hand, do well when used intermittently.
I own a Canon iPF8300 and am very happy with it, but it's not a clearcut case of Canon being better when used intermittently in comparison to Epson printers being used intermittently. Canon uses very simple clock timer intervals to initiate pre-emptive cleaning cycles prior to printing when your Canon pigment ink printer has been left unused for more than a few days. And the longer you leave a Canon printer, the more aggressive that cleaning cycle is. While this preemptive procedure to avoid clogged nozzles on a Canon printer gives the enduser the impression that Canon printers don't clog as often as Epson printers, the reality is that a lot of ink hits Canon waste tanks rather than your paper if you don't use your Canon pigmented ink printer almost every day. And also in light use cases, when the nozzles finally do clog and don't respond to cleaning, then the Canon remaps the misfiring nozzles to spare nozzles, but it's a consumptive process. Because I use my Canon iPf8300 for only my personal work, my usage follows that of the "fine art" photographer. I'm having to replace Canon print heads approximately every two years, and it takes even less time for the $90 waste tank to get full. That is about $500 dollars per year in ongoing maintenance costs over and above all the wasted ink which goes unaccounted for.
Epson clearly suffers from a cleaning and maintenance perception problem where there is some truth to the story, but the story for Canon printer owners is far less obvious though real nonetheless. I'm not so sure that the generally perceived reality between the two brands is accurate. Bottom line: it would take a rather sophisticated multi printer study to prove total cost of Canon ownership is less than Epson (not just hearsay on internet chat forums), and I don't know of any such independent test reports with conclusions along those lines as ever having been published. Because HP heads are so cheap to replace, it may very well be that HP wins the total cost of ownership game as well, so it's a shame that HP hasn't maintained a vigorous pursuit of the photography and fine art market. Maybe we should all write a "draft HP" petition, and send it on to Carly Fiorina's successors at HP. ;D
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Thanks for weighing in, Mark. Considering that the only change to the Vivera Inkset has been with the addition of Chromata Red, it is a testament to HP's vision to create the best inks ever at the time when the Z Series printers came on the scene. I like your idea about a petition, but I'm afraid HP's corporate stance is unmoveable - the bottom line is the line they toe.
Ernst's comment:
For the jobs I have to do the printer does not need to be enhanced. I know that printer and its habits and not any new one.
This is probably true, that the printer doesn't need to be improved. If there was any way that they could include a paper tray, it would possibly become the most popular prnter on the market. If they were going to make a single change, a simple one would be to make the control panel have an "upside down" reading capability to make it easier to read from the back side of the printer. Come to think of it, a "snap-clip" to clamp the belt which could be a strip rather than a loop, would be a significant improvement.
Just continuing to manufacture the printer and inks as is would be enough though.
Mark
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Not really, Hp generally outperforms the Canon Lucia ink set due to its balanced fading performance and this shows up in the Aardenburg testing as well as WIR test results. However, when paired with an underperforming media, the superior HP Vivera pigments won't buy you much that the other pigmented ink sets can't deliver in terms of light fade resistance. Nevertheless, if you look at all the data on the Aardenburg website, it's a fair conclusion to rank HP's Vivera pigments as the very highest rated ink set in overall light fastness, followed by Canon Lucia, and then by any Epson printers that use the K3 yellow. The new HDX yellow in the latest Epson ink sets may change the rank order, but that remains to be seen. As pigment longevity improves, the battleground shifts more and more to the properties of the chosen media.
I was looking at some direct comparisons and found this:
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl @ 100 Mlux hours - HP Vivera via Z3100 I*colour average 97.6/worst 10% 92.1, I*tone average 95.1/worst 10% 90.1
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl @ 100 Mlux hours - Canon Lucia EX via iPF8300 I*colour average 96.8/worst 10% 91.9, I*tone average 96.3/worst 10% 91.5
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm @ 140Mlux hours - HP Vivera via Z3200 I*colour average 94.5/worst 10% 82.1, I*tone average 92.7/worst 10% 84.8
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm @ 140Mlux hours - Canon Lucia EX via iPF6300 I*colour average 95.1/worst 10% 83.2, I*tone average 93.4/worst 10% 87.4
All uncoated/unlaminated samples.
I'm very interested to see what you and others have found with the HDX pigments - after all, if you take out the yellow completely (via a RIP) and compensate with orange and green in the HDR inkset, you end up with longevity similar to those of Canon and HP. I'm also interested to see what Canon have done with the Lucia Pro inkset vs Lucia EX - with Lucia EX they were claiming 200 years plus, whereas with Lucia Pro they're only claming around 60-80 years. It's hard to imagine them going backwards, particularly since Lucia Pro is a more concentrated ink than Lucia EX, but maybe their standard of 'acceptable fading' has changed.
Don't get me wrong - I really like the HP printers and inks, and wish they had developed them further. The HP printers are fairly idiot-proof, and you know the inks will last as long or longer than any other aqueous ink available no matter what you're printing on. The gamut could have been improved a bit, but the next generation of Vivera pigments could have done that, and it's only when you put them side-by-side with a Canon or Epson print of a highly-saturated subject that you can sometimes see a difference. It's just unfortunate that HP dropped out of the aqueous photographic printer game and we may not be able to obtain red, green and blue ink in the future, if no other HP printers use them.
At the moment, I'm also looking at the possibility of using Epson's S70-series (and upcoming S80-series) solvent printers for indoor fine-art prints, since their gamut is now approaching that of aqueous printers, and their physical durability and ink permanence are without question (2-3 years outdoors uncoated probably equals several centuries coated with Timeless and on indoor display).
I own a Canon iPF8300 and am very happy with it, but it's not a clearcut case of Canon being better when used intermittently in comparison to Epson printers being used intermittently. Canon uses very simple clock timer intervals to initiate pre-emptive cleaning cycles prior to printing when your Canon pigment ink printer has been left unused for more than a few days. And the longer you leave a Canon printer, the more aggressive that cleaning cycle is. While this preemptive procedure to avoid clogged nozzles on a Canon printer gives the enduser the impression that Canon printers don't clog as often as Epson printers, the reality is that a lot of ink hits Canon waste tanks rather than your paper if you don't use your Canon pigmented ink printer almost every day. And also in light use cases, when the nozzles finally do clog and don't respond to cleaning, then the Canon remaps the misfiring nozzles to spare nozzles, but it's a consumptive process. Because I use my Canon iPf8300 for only my personal work, my usage follows that of the "fine art" photographer. I'm having to replace Canon print heads approximately every two years, and it takes even less time for the $90 waste tank to get full. That is about $500 dollars per year in ongoing maintenance costs over and above all the wasted ink which goes unaccounted for.
Is it the same with HP, though? They're both based on the same head technology; granted, the inks are different.
Epson clearly suffers from a cleaning and maintenance perception problem where there is some truth to the story, but the story for Canon printer owners is far less obvious though real nonetheless. I'm not so sure that the generally perceived reality between the two brands is accurate. Bottom line: it would take a rather sophisticated multi printer study to prove total cost of Canon ownership is less than Epson (not just hearsay on internet chat forums), and I don't know of any such independent test reports with conclusions along those lines as ever having been published. Because HP heads are so cheap to replace, it may very well be that HP wins the total cost of ownership game as well, so it's a shame that HP hasn't maintained a vigorous pursuit of the photography and fine art market. Maybe we should all write a "draft HP" petition, and send it on to Carly Fiorina's successors at HP. ;D
The thing is, Canon and HP both map out blocked nozzles to completely compensate for them, so you don't get prints spoiled by malfunctioning nozzles, and can go away on a six-week shooting trip and still come back to a printer that works perfectly. It might cost a bit of ink to run it that way, but it still runs. Epson does not - a single blocked nozzle makes the entire printer unusable, and nozzles clog on a regular-enough basis that, unless you print every day, you end up spending more time unblocking the printer than actually printing with it. And, when even a single nozzle can't be unblocked by regular means, you need to drain all the lines and remove the head to try to flush or clean it - or even replace the whole $2000 head - rather than just remap it like with every other printer. Sure, it works fine for a production environment where the printer is working continuously. But it's probably not ideal for a photographer who prints on demand and doesn't also provide a printing service for other photographers and artists.
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I wasn't aware that the Canon printers had optional embedded spectrophotometers. Good to know. For the record, the Z Series printers are capable of measuring coated dried substrates as well. There are many options and different ways to run charts, do whatever you want to them and run them back through to read them. In many cases, however, for many papers, the waiting time is adequate. If you want to let a paper dry overnight or 24 hours, or whatever, it's the same - easy to just have the printer read the chart whenever.
You have some good points shadow blade and I appreciate the information and your perspective, but regarding inks and support, I really would not just count HP out when it comes to future offerings. Guessing that they will or won't continue to make the inks is not enough proof to simply write them off, when the company has a long history of long time manufacture of their inks.
You could be right, but until I see evidence of any such sort, I'll be sticking with my Z series printers. I'm glad you like the Canons - I have some Canon Pro Series printers as well in our studios, and they're great, but I really prefer the HP's.
Just curious, do you have any evidence or any special knowledge that HP will discontinue manufacturing the other colors?
Thanks -
Mark
Today's Z3200-PS comes with the spectrometer integrated + calibration software + profiling software (2 types) + monitor puck/dongle and it can profile 3rd party printers as well. Both on the 24" and 44" version. All in the price quoted earlier in this thread. Some weeks ago a customer I print for came here with Canson BFK print proofs made on the Canon Pro 10 (10 pigment inks desktop model). I made the Canon Pro 10 BFK profile with the Z3200 spectrometer some months before. The proofs were 1:1 in color to the prints I made. Interesting as I had done the same for another customer with an Epson 3880 and there the blue/cyan just could not get near the Z3200 output. Difference probably in the lacking extra hue inks of the 3880.
Epson and Canon deliver a more optional solution for the spectrometer on the printers, any buyer should read carefully what the deal content is on profiling software. Check also the possibility of making profiles for other printers + legal restrictions on that.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Don't get me wrong - I really like the HP printers and inks, and wish they had developed them further. The HP printers are fairly idiot-proof, and you know the inks will last as long or longer than any other aqueous ink available no matter what you're printing on. The gamut could have been improved a bit, but the next generation of Vivera pigments could have done that, and it's only when you put them side-by-side with a Canon or Epson print of a highly-saturated subject that you can sometimes see a difference. It's just unfortunate that HP dropped out of the aqueous photographic printer game and we may not be able to obtain red, green and blue ink in the future, if no other HP printers use them.
Sounds a little condescending, Shadowblade. "Fairly idiot-proof", "gamut could be improved", "red, green and blue inks not available in the future"....
By "fairly idiot-proof" do you mean "easy to use"?
By "gamut could be improved" do you mean better than the already better than the other ink sets? Two of the most highly regarded forum contributors have already refuted your statements regarding overall longevity and gamut.
"Red, green and blue inks not available in the future" What, you have a corporate crystal ball?
As far as I know, HP has NOT dropped out of the aqueous market yet - they still sell the Z3200ps 44" and as Ernst stated earlier, the printers are still listed for sale in HP's catalog. Your arguments are really splitting hairs, and I'm not exactly sure what your agenda is, other than to suggest you think the Canon printers are superior. But to what end? This is a thread asking if HP will make a next-gen Z-Series, not about "what better Canon printer" replaces it.
What you have to gain by putting the Z Series printers down, is unclear. If it's just soliloquizing on your part, then of course, you're welcome to your opinions, fact based or not. To continue to spread a rumor that the inks may not be available in the future, the same can be said of any other printers.
I get it - you're a Canon fan. Great.
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Sounds a little condescending, Shadowblade. "Fairly idiot-proof", "gamut could be improved", "red, green and blue inks not available in the future"....
Now who's the one being condescending?
By "fairly idiot-proof" do you mean "easy to use"?
Yes. They're easy to use. If you're not printing every day, you don't need to worry about clogged heads - they'll remap themselves. No messing around with cleaning solutions, cleaning cartridges, etc. When you need to replace the heads, they're cheap. And, as already mentioned, profiling is easy. Compared to any other large-format printer, they are idiot-proof.
By "gamut could be improved" do you mean better than the already better than the other ink sets? Two of the most highly regarded forum contributors have already refuted your statements regarding overall longevity and gamut.
Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said anything to suggest that HP inks weren't as long-lasting or longer-lasting than other aqueous inks on the market. I merely said that, on the right media, Canon Lucia EX inks match - not exceed - HP's inks in longevity. And the results I looked up and quoted confirm that. Or are you contradicting the test results?
Show me one test - on any inkjet paper or canvas - where the colour gamut of the HP Z3200 matches or exceeds the gamut of Epson HDR/HDX prints or Canon Lucia EX or Lucia Pro inks. I doubt you'd be able to find one. Every comparison out there shows Epson and Canon having a slight. Whether or not that actually matters depends on the subject matter you're printing. Subdued scenes? Probably not. Deeply-saturated landscapes with strong reds and oranges? Quite possibly.
"Red, green and blue inks not available in the future" What, you have a corporate crystal ball?
I take it English isn't your first language? I believe I said 'may not' be available, not 'will not'. Or did you decide to deliberately misquote me for the purpose of attacking a straw man?
HP haven't released a large-format printer using those inks for eight years. In another eight years, with the Z3200 design being as ancient as printers released in 2000 seem today, it seems unlikely that they'll continue to support an ever-dwindling number of old machines still being used at that stage.
As far as I know, HP has NOT dropped out of the aqueous market yet - they still sell the Z3200ps 44" and as Ernst stated earlier, the printers are still listed for sale in HP's catalog. Your arguments are really splitting hairs, and I'm not exactly sure what your agenda is, other than to suggest you think the Canon printers are superior. But to what end? This is a thread asking if HP will make a next-gen Z-Series, not about "what better Canon printer" replaces it.
And I'm arguing that they won't. HP themselves pretty much said so - they're working on technical/business machines, not those designed for photography or art.
I never said the Canon was better. Merely that, with HP unlikely to bring out another large-format photo printer with lots of inks and a wide colour gamut, the Canon is the best alternative, with proven longevity and colour gamut.
What you have to gain by putting the Z Series printers down, is unclear. If it's just soliloquizing on your part, then of course, you're welcome to your opinions, fact based or not. To continue to spread a rumor that the inks may not be available in the future, the same can be said of any other printers.
What rumour? It's pure speculation. And, given that HP haven't released a photo-oriented large-format printer for years, it's on pretty solid ground.
I get it - you're a Canon fan. Great.
No I'm not. I prefer the HP myself (when I'm not selling ultra-glossy dye sub metal, anyway). But I'm under no illusions that HP will ever launch a successor, or that the current model will continue to be supported indefinitely, and prefer to look for alternatives rather than hoping against hope that HP will change its mind and deliver a Z3300 at some stage.
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You've made your points clear Shadowblade.
On some, we'll agree. On others, we'll agree to disagree.
Thank you for your contributions to the thread.
Mark
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This coming summer I'll buy my first 44 inch printer. I was considering Canon or HP. I have read a ton of posts here over the years. I think I'll go with the z3200ps. My remote location (Yukon Territory) and intermittent printing combined with all the infos out there on how to fix problems (thank you Mr. Lindquist) plus a ton of other features/options/specs that are included with the printer make it a no brainer for me. Yes, I was also wondering what HP's plans are for the future supporting the printer but worst case scenario I'll buy the most needed spare parts sooner than later.
I think it's hopeless to wonder about the future of these products, what would HP gain if they said anything about a 'No Future' ? So they might as well keep quiet and enjoy business as usual.
William
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You won't be sorry. They are the most trouble free pigment printer on the market and twice the longevity of both the new Epson and Canon. Excellent BW as well, much better dmax on matte media, and if your head dies, it costs you $70.00. I don't care about the future either. They legally have to keep selling ink and heads for like 10 years after they discontinue the printers, and they are still making them. Only downside for me is they are slower than the others, but I don't care. Probably the best product HP ever made ( not that they appreciate it ).
j
This coming summer I'll buy my first 44 inch printer. I was considering Canon or HP. I have read a ton of posts here over the years. I think I'll go with the z3200ps. My remote location (Yukon Territory) and intermittent printing combined with all the infos out there on how to fix problems (thank you Mr. Lindquist) plus a ton of other features/options/specs that are included with the printer make it a no brainer for me. Yes, I was also wondering what HP's plans are for the future supporting the printer but worst case scenario I'll buy the most needed spare parts sooner than later.
I think it's hopeless to wonder about the future of these products, what would HP gain if they said anything about a 'No Future' ? So they might as well keep quiet and enjoy business as usual.
William
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You won't be sorry. They are the most trouble free pigment printer on the market and twice the longevity of both the new Epson and Canon. Excellent BW as well, much better dmax on matte media, and if your head dies, it costs you $70.00. I don't care about the future either. They legally have to keep selling ink and heads for like 10 years after they discontinue the printers, and they are still making them. Only downside for me is they are slower than the others, but I don't care. Probably the best product HP ever made ( not that they appreciate it ).
j
If you are so pleased with the HP Z series why did you buy a Canon 8300? This is not a challenging question. Just curious. Please tell me the pluses and minuses of both. I am also in the market for a new 44" wide printer and will buying one shortly. Waiting for the new canon's to come out before making a decision.
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Well I have three 44" machines. The Canon, the HP, and the Epson 9890, and use them for different projects and different inks. The HP Z has image stability that is off the charts and I bought it before the others and it has out performed the others in terms of reliability. But I use the Canon a lot more because it is much faster and the output at even bidirectional is excellent. Also it takes the big ink carts and for production work that makes sense. I use the HP for monochrome work on matt rag media primarily, and for my own color work and for those who really want the extra image permanence. To be honest, not that many people these days care about prints lasting more than 100-200 years or so, but I do. Who knows, our species might even last 400 years more, you never know. And prints exposed to a lot of bright daylight will hold up better on the Z.
If I were you I would wait to see what the deal is with the new Canons that haven't been released yet, and see how the new Epsons are holding up as well in regard to head issues. They certainly have improved the stability of their inkset this go around. It would be nice if Canon offers on more gray dilution to make an evenly spaced quad bw set, like the new Epson 11880 replacement. And who knows about HP, they could have something up their sleeve too. If you look at both the Canon and HP websites you'll see that they both make a lot of large format pigment and eco solvent printers. It seems like fine arts is small potatoes for all of them. I have to say Epson by far has the best website. It is annoying trying to find anything on the Canon and HP sites, they just jumble everything together.
I do think that for someone who does a modest amount of printing and really cares about longevity, and bw on matte media, the Z is a good deal, and if you do need a head it is dirt cheap but very durable. It is also MUCH easier to set up and move around. It's so much lighter and takes up less space than the others.
john
If you are so pleased with the HP Z series why did you buy a Canon 8300? This is not a challenging question. Just curious. Please tell me the pluses and minuses of both. I am also in the market for a new 44" wide printer and will buying one shortly. Waiting for the new canon's to come out before making a decision.
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A very timely discussion for me. My 9800 is in intensive care, having gone from several years of perfect printing to a nozzle check showing about 10% of the nozzles firing. This happened virtually instantly. I noticed a faint line on one margin, did a nozzle check and then, pffft! Three channels printing nothing and the remainder operating at about 50% I have some cleaning solution on order and I might install some cleaning carts and pump the cleaning solution through if manual cleaning doesn't work. But I'm not holding out much hope. An instant failure like that sounds like something more than clogging.
So, expecting that it might need professional tech service, I contacted the Epson wholesaler for British Columbia and was told that if the printer was more than about three years old (in other words, out of the extended warranty offered by Epson) then it wasn't worth repairing. Besides, they said. "We don't do service here in Vancouver. If you want a tech to service your printer, you'll have to fly one in from the USA."
Are you kidding me? No service AT ALL? And a $6K machine has a useful service life of three years? Really, Epson?
HP or Canon are both looking like a more responsible decision for me.
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Before you throw out that Epson try something. Start to do a nozzle check pattern and when the head moves, open the printer cover, pull the head out away from the capping station, where the head rests when not used. Unplug the printer. Now with a good flash light take a straw and pull some distilled water into the straw holding your finger over the end of the straw and deposit the distilled water on all the pads where the individual head nozzles rest. The put the head back into the cap station. Turn the printer back on. When depositing the water on the head I always put come cotton gloves or a wash cloth of something under the cap station so I don't let water drip down inside the printer.
I had this 9890 for 5 years and only the last 8 months or so have I had perfect nozzles every time I turn it on. This is not a coincidence.
My theory is that these LF Epson cap stations and inadequate to completely seal the print head from air over time because when they are not wet they loose their shape. When you do a head cleaning if the head is not completely sealed you get air in the head and lines , and that gives you bad nozzles and banding.
Now I'm not saying that this is the ONLY problem with Epson heads on the 24 and 44 inch printers, but it does account for the fact that people who use these machines all day everyday have much less problems with clogged nozzles. Back when I had the Epson 10K that head and cap station was so solid and robust that I never had missing nozzles or clogs, ever for 10 years. My opinion is that if they have not redesigned their cap station and the way it fits their heads on the new LF Epson's they are going have the same issues.
A very timely discussion for me. My 9800 is in intensive care, having gone from several years of perfect printing to a nozzle check showing about 10% of the nozzles firing. This happened virtually instantly. I noticed a faint line on one margin, did a nozzle check and then, pffft! Three channels printing nothing and the remainder operating at about 50% I have some cleaning solution on order and I might install some cleaning carts and pump the cleaning solution through if manual cleaning doesn't work. But I'm not holding out much hope. An instant failure like that sounds like something more than clogging.
So, expecting that it might need professional tech service, I contacted the Epson wholesaler for British Columbia and was told that if the printer was more than about three years old (in other words, out of the extended warranty offered by Epson) then it wasn't worth repairing. Besides, they said. "We don't do service here in Vancouver. If you want a tech to service your printer, you'll have to fly one in from the USA."
Are you kidding me? No service AT ALL? And a $6K machine has a useful service life of three years? Really, Epson?
HP or Canon are both looking like a more responsible decision for me.
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Okay, deanwork. I'll try this. I've cleaned the capping station with a swab and windex, but I think I see your strategy. You want to effect a seal between the head and the capping station to enable the cleaning to work better. Do I have this right? I'll try this tomorrow AM.
Thanks!
Peter
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Yes, I do this at least ever two weeks on Sundays. Since doing it I've never had a missing nozzle. I would totally avoid using Windex on the cap station. That ammonia will have the effect of actually drying out the pads and could eventually make them useless.
You see companies who have prints going through the printer all day everyday rarely see the problem because the area is constantly being soaked with ink.
Use distilled water because it has no sludge or minerals to build up there. The idea is the pads dry out and loose the shape and proper contact. You need perfect contact in all the nozzles to do a proper head cleaning. My feeling is that at least half of the problems people have relate to this. Then they go in there and use windex or call Epson who always starts right off replacing expensive parts when the issue is often poor head/cap station sealing.
j
Okay, deanwork. I'll try this. I've cleaned the capping station with a swab and windex, but I think I see your strategy. You want to effect a seal between the head and the capping station to enable the cleaning to work better. Do I have this right? I'll try this tomorrow AM.
Thanks!
Peter
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Use distilled water because it has no sludge or minerals to build up there.
What's your feeling about cleaning fluids like those advertised by American Inkjet Systems and others?
Thanks for your helpful advice. My 9800 has worked perfectly for years. I miss it greatly.
Peter
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Before you throw out that Epson try something. Start to do a nozzle check pattern and when the head moves, open the printer cover, pull the head out away from the capping station, where the head rests when not used. Unplug the printer. Now with a good flash light take a straw and pull some distilled water into the straw holding your finger over the end of the straw and deposit the distilled water on all the pads where the individual head nozzles rest. The put the head back into the cap station. Turn the printer back on. When depositing the water on the head I always put come cotton gloves or a wash cloth of something under the cap station so I don't let water drip down inside the printer.
Hi John,
I have a 9900 and have pulled back the head and noticed that there are 5 pads on the capping station. Are these the pads you are referring to? Can a wet paper towel be put there to keep the head moist, or is it better to just put distilled water on the pads? Thanks for all your input.
Gar
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I assume soaking a paper towel and putting it there could do the trick. The reason I put the water directly on the pads is I don't want the head staying off of the cap station any longer than a minute or so. I soak the pads then put the head right on them to keep the shape tight. It's like molding the head nozzles to the pads.
Some people have had luck with using paper towels and also some people in the past have used a standard method of putting a sponge back in the carnage area soaked with distilled water when the printer wasn't in use to keep the humidity level high. I've tried that and it does a good job of humidifying when you have dry air conditioners or heating systems drying things out. It is easy to forget the sponge is there though.... But I think dealing with the pads themselves to keep their shape might need direct fluid on the pads every week if one is not printing a lot every day.
john
Hi John,
I have a 9900 and have pulled back the head and noticed that there are 5 pads on the capping station. Are these the pads you are referring to? Can a wet paper towel be put there to keep the head moist, or is it better to just put distilled water on the pads? Thanks for all your input.
Gar
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Well I have three 44" machines. The Canon, the HP, and the Epson 9890, and use them for different projects and different inks. The HP Z has image stability that is off the charts and I bought it before the others and it has out performed the others in terms of reliability. But I use the Canon a lot more because it is much faster and the output at even bidirectional is excellent. Also it takes the big ink carts and for production work that makes sense. I use the HP for monochrome work on matt rag media primarily, and for my own color work and for those who really want the extra image permanence. To be honest, not that many people these days care about prints lasting more than 100-200 years or so, but I do. Who knows, our species might even last 400 years more, you never know. And prints exposed to a lot of bright daylight will hold up better on the Z.
I do think that for someone who does a modest amount of printing and really cares about longevity, and bw on matte media, the Z is a good deal, and if you do need a head it is dirt cheap but very durable. It is also MUCH easier to set up and move around. It's so much lighter and takes up less space than the others.
john
I've thought about this ever since you posted this John, getting back on topic, and I have to say, that's quite an endorsement. I feel the same way about the HP. The color is incredible, the reliability is amazing, the parts are inexpensive, you can work on it like an old Chevy or Ford, and it is easy to move around. They can be cantankerous sometimes though....
Probably the HP in your shop doesn't get nearly as much use as the other printers, and it is the one that can stand to sit there content with the micro drop technology and not clog. For the price of the printheads (2 for 1) being about $35.00 for each printhead (x2) = $70.00 it's really hard to beat. In a way, these printers have been so incredible, they're almost to good to be true and too good to last too much longer. It's been a great ride though. I keep telling myself thatI should just take off a month or so and just print the heck out of it and make the best portfolios I can and keep going until they discontinue it totally. They're easy enough to fix, but the inks like the Chromata Red and the Blue and the Green possibly might not be there in the long run, but who can say really? I shudder to think of getting other printers to replace the Z's. Like Ernst said: "I know this one and its habits, and not other".
Mark
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Like Ernst said: "I know this one and its habits, and not other".
Yes. Precisely my feelings about my 9800. I know what it can and can't do.
More research and testing have revealed that it's a head failure. (Just like my 4800, which coincidentally uses the same head.)
I'll replace the head and capping station, even though it's gonna hurt my wallet badly. There goes my 200-500 Nikkor. :(
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You won't be sorry. They are the most trouble free pigment printer on the market and twice the longevity of both the new Epson and Canon. Excellent BW as well, much better dmax on matte media, and if your head dies, it costs you $70.00. I don't care about the future either. They legally have to keep selling ink and heads for like 10 years after they discontinue the printers, and they are still making them. Only downside for me is they are slower than the others, but I don't care. Probably the best product HP ever made ( not that they appreciate it ).
j
Is that true? Under which legislation (i.e. which country/state would they have to keep selling it in). You could make a much better case for a Z3200 if there was a guaranteed 10 year ink/parts supply for them. After all, they're still probably the best small-production-volume photo printer on the market and are dirt-cheap second-hand, with ongoing ink and parts support being the main downside to them.
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They legally have to keep selling ink and heads for like 10 years after they discontinue the printers, and they are still making them. Only downside for me is they are slower than the others, but I don't care. Probably the best product HP ever made ( not that they appreciate it ).
j
John, I'd be interested in where that information comes from as well. If it's right, it's good news. I've been investigating how long HP will continue to manufacture the printer and the inks, and hope to have a definitive answer in the near future. (Can't talk about it right now).
If you have a source for that info, please let us know, OK?
Thanks,
Mark
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I had some legal info on that years ago but I don't know where it is now.
It has to do with a whole realm of machines and products, and the US laws are not the same as Asian and European laws.
It would be good to talk to a good HP rep. directly and find out. Most of their inksets and parts function with multiple printers, but not all.
The one thing they can do to us for sure, which is more of a concern, is to raise the prices on the parts and inks to such a level that it has the effect of totally discouraging the user to continue using the device. There is no law that says they can't jack up prices at any time they want.
Last time I checked all the old Epson inksets were still available but the older the printer the higher the price.
Eventually things like the carriage motor, and gears wear out so the printers are going to have a finite life anyway.
john
John, I'd be interested in where that information comes from as well. If it's right, it's good news. I've been investigating how long HP will continue to manufacture the printer and the inks, and hope to have a definitive answer in the near future. (Can't talk about it right now).
If you have a source for that info, please let us know, OK?
Thanks,
Mark
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I hear you about raising prices on parts John. Fortunately, many of the parts are off the shelf and relatively easily substituted. It's surprising to me, that after all these years, and with the availability dwindling that the Z Series printers are still so highly regarded, and the inkset is so very respected.
Maybe it will just make economic sense for HP to continue selling the inks. I would imagine that is where they make their money after all.
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Damn, BH is selling the Z3200 44" for $3,995.00 and even more impressive the 3 year extended warranty is $300.00. Now that is amazing.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist.jsp&A=cart&Q=add
Yea, I think about the same thing. No one can predict HPs motives. However, the one thing they did, or started to do, that really encouraged me was making the system components exchangeable in a modular way. Such as, you pop the heads in two minutes, you can slide in the main board yourself on the back with two little screws, etc. The maintenance tank lasts for many years and when you do need to remove it, it's not difficult. The tech guys can tear the printer down in less than an hour and replace anything. They seem to know what to exchange and it has always been an efficient design in that way. None of this exchanging this part or that part and hoping that would solve the problem caused by some error message. It was always very straightforward. And yes, if they can sell the ink and heads they will continue to make them.
I just talked to an international attorney tonight who is a client of mine. He told me that he was not aware of any law that "required" manufacturers to make available parts and service after such and such a time period ( after warranties are no longer available.) He did say that companies do have internal policies however, because without them their reputations would suffer. Their main goal, in this case, is to sell ink and anyway they can do that they will. I can't see where they make any money really with the print heads, not like Canon does. In the case of HP they have continued to allow users to extend warranties on a year to year basis, or a 2 year to 2 year basis, long after the initial warranties have expired. Canon and Epson don't do this, they seem to want you to buy the next version. So, for sure, as long as the HP z3200 sales team is providing those additional extended warranties they will have to provide the consumables and service.
In the future, maybe we will have parts on demand through 3D printing. Wouldn't that be nice? As far as I'm concerned I'd like to have my Z last forever if the cost of parts permitted it.
John
I hear you about raising prices on parts John. Fortunately, many of the parts are off the shelf and relatively easily substituted. It's surprising to me, that after all these years, and with the availability dwindling that the Z Series printers are still so highly regarded, and the inkset is so very respected.
Maybe it will just make economic sense for HP to continue selling the inks. I would imagine that is where they make their money after all.
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I had some legal info on that years ago but I don't know where it is now.
It has to do with a whole realm of machines and products, and the US laws are not the same as Asian and European laws.
Fortunately, you can order ink from anywhere and it's cheap to ship it halfway around the world, so if they need to keep on selling it in even one jurisdiction, the ink would remain available.
It would be good to talk to a good HP rep. directly and find out. Most of their inksets and parts function with multiple printers, but not all.
The one thing they can do to us for sure, which is more of a concern, is to raise the prices on the parts and inks to such a level that it has the effect of totally discouraging the user to continue using the device. There is no law that says they can't jack up prices at any time they want.
Last time I checked all the old Epson inksets were still available but the older the printer the higher the price.
You mean something like charging normal price for CMYKlclmlkllk (which are used by other printers) but charging ten times as much for RGB?
Eventually things like the carriage motor, and gears wear out so the printers are going to have a finite life anyway.
john
Fortunately, that sort of mechanical wear and tear is more dependent on volume of use (i.e. number of kilometres of paper printed) rather than how many years old the printer is.
Any idea what the team behind the Z3200 are up to now? I hear they are no longer with HP.
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I have a 44" Z3100, a 333" Z3200ps and 24" Z3200. I use the Z3200 24" mostly for portfolio prints - single sheets 13x19, 17x22, etc. I find it easier and more consistent to print on sheets instead of on rolls for portfolio prints. No decurling, sheets exactly the same size, etc. I've finally got the loading with skew check down so that every time, the sheet loads. I use Ernst's trick of loading directly on top of the spindle whether there is a roll on the spindle or not. Keeping light pressure against the spindle stop on the left side facing the front of the printer from the back side, the sheet pulls in unifomly and pretty much takes everytime. It took a long time to get this down, but now it has proven worth the time and practice to acquire the skill. I'd rather feed sheets than decurl and cut. When it comes to special portfolio prints.
It still is time comsuming, but there is no other printer that compares in quality in my opinion. I used to use the Epson 4800 Pro and it was fantastic with the cassette tray. But I prefer the print quality of the Z3200. The 4800 Pro is built like a tank and it's a good printer.
That's what I'd like to see on a future HP - a paper cassette tray. Oh well, everbody's got a dream, right?
Ultimately, it would be enough for HP to just continue making the printer and the inks. I don't care how much they cost or if they raise the prices.
Mark
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That's what I'd like to see on a future HP - a paper cassette tray. Oh well, everbody's got a dream, right?
An inbuilt laser cutter and decurler would be nice. A bit like the machines used to cut fabric patterns.
Sheet paper doesn't work when three-quarters of your work is in panoramic format - hence, my deep disappointment at the Canon Pro-1000.
I'd also like a wider platen gap and an easy way to convert it to a flatbed format, for printing on rigid substrates.
Ultimately, it would be enough for HP to just continue making the printer and the inks. I don't care how much they cost or if they raise the prices.
Mark
Not sure how sustainable it would be to keep a production line open just to make parts and consumables for an ageing printer, though. As long as other printers continue to share the same components it shouldn't be a problem, but HP's business-oriented machines are bound to be updated eventually to use different motors, pumps, etc. They're already having to source pigments and make inks that are used in no other printer, which can't be great from a profits point of view.
That said, if absolutely necessary, you can run HP inks through an Epson printer. I'd imagine you'd be able to get them working with a Canon printer, too, with some tweaking.
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They've sold a lot of these printers over the years, and since many of the parts are inter-changeable it will be easy enough to pick one up really cheaply or for free and use it for parts or just fix it. This should last for a good long time, especially as people begin to start getting rid of them more frequently. Not practical for most people wanting to use the printer however. Would be for me.
Yeah I'd like the things you mentioned too Shadowblade.
A de-curler would be sweet. Just a take up roll with an intermediary jack-shaft so that the print roll could be reverse-wound would do it. I think the laser cutter might be problematic because of the smoke, but could be the answer to cutting canvas. Since the ESP already scans targets, why not ability to scan images as well. A cowl covering rolls would be nice....and add to that a vacuum system and soft brush for paper or canvas rolls going in.
A spray fixative for certain uses would be awesome. Especially if the roll paper was reverse wound, or sheets could be passed through a second time. Couldn't be used on Glossy papers because of the off-gassing, but for matte and canvas where the papers breathe through the back, it should be doable.
By the time we're finished redesigning the printer, we certainly couldn't afford it....
But it's a nice dream machine. :-)
-Mark
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I don't have any idea what HP is up to. There was a guy who posted on this forum a year or two ago and he knew people who worked on that Barcelona team. He said they had been laid off a long time ago or transferred to other projects.
Maybe they feel like they invested all they wanted to on R&D for the art market. Like Canon their thing really is Design graphics printers. It is possible that when HP designed and marketed a color inkset that is very close to the longevity of the carbon pigment transfer process (that costs a fortune and only has one guy doing it. ) that artists would be stunned and go crazy over it. Problem is I'd say 3/4 or more of the photographers out there don't even care. I have heard so many clients say, what do I care about 400 years on Canson media, I'll be dead long before they fade and so will my children. Personally I just don't get that. Painters don't talk like that usually, and if I were a musician wouldn't I want my recordings to last longer than me? As long as possible?
My fantasy is to take a Z and dilute the amazing gray inks in a base and create an 8 channel BW printer that could print on gloss or fiber and use the 4 other color channels for toning. You could do all that in Studio Print, partitioning the channels. There used to be refillable empty carts available for HP Z and Canon. I guess they still are. It would be the greatest and most permanent bw printer ever made with the greatest dmax. But I'll never do it. Life gets in the way.
Any idea what the team behind the Z3200 are up to now? I hear they are no longer with HP.
[/quote]
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I don't have any idea what HP is up to. There was a guy who posted on this forum a year or two ago and he knew people who worked on that Barcelona team. He said they had been laid off a long time ago or transferred to other projects.
Maybe they feel like they invested all they wanted to on R&D for the art market. Like Canon their thing really is Design graphics printers. It is possible that when HP designed and marketed a color inkset that is very close to the longevity of the carbon pigment transfer process (that costs a fortune and only has one guy doing it. ) that artists would be stunned and go crazy over it. Problem is I'd say 3/4 or more of the photographers out there don't even care. I have heard so many clients say, what do I care about 400 years on Canson media, I'll be dead long before they fade and so will my children. Personally I just don't get that. Painters don't talk like that usually, and if I were a musician wouldn't I want my recordings to last longer than me? As long as possible?
Certainly event and sports photographers probably couldn't care less. But those shooting landscapes and fine art prints probably do, and, the bigger and more expensive the print, the more it matters. Trouble is, that's only a small segment of the photography market.
My fantasy is to take a Z and dilute the amazing gray inks in a base and create an 8 channel BW printer that could print on gloss or fiber and use the 4 other color channels for toning. You could do all that in Studio Print, partitioning the channels. There used to be refillable empty carts available for HP Z and Canon. I guess they still are. It would be the greatest and most permanent bw printer ever made with the greatest dmax. But I'll never do it. Life gets in the way.
Why not run Piezography Carbon, with a few coloured inks for toning?
Really, carbon, gold or platinum nanoparticles are the way to go if you want non-fading prints. Carbon doesn't fade. Gold and platinum barely corrode. By adjusting the size of pigment particles, you can achieve any possible colour, all using the same pigment. I believe there is a company which has produced inks based on that (not on a commercial scale), but can't find their website at the moment.
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Either way, I'm really hoping the Canon Lucia Pro matches or exceeds Vivera in longevity. It's not such a big leap. Then there would be a printer that's reliable and won't clog and will have near-guaranteed ongoing support - Canon's unlikely to suddenly pull the rug out from under photographers, since they also make cameras.
Or, of course, for HP to show some renewed interest in wide-gamut photo printers...
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With that new inkset Canon did just that, pull the rug out from under photographers. They are giving the photo world right back to Epson.
Either way, I'm really hoping the Canon Lucia Pro matches or exceeds Vivera in longevity. It's not such a big leap. Then there would be a printer that's reliable and won't clog and will have near-guaranteed ongoing support - Canon's unlikely to suddenly pull the rug out from under photographers, since they also make cameras.
Or, of course, for HP to show some renewed interest in wide-gamut photo printers...
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I do print piezography carbon K7. All my own work is done on it and most of the best bw for my clients as well. Personally I like the print color, to me it makes the prints richer than neutral prints. A lot of people are scared of warm prints for some reason.
I guess it would be possible to set up toning by using the new Epson pigments in combination with piezography because at least in the past the inks were totally compatible, in an Epson printer. Epson says there is no way you can put third party inks in these new printers, but they have said that many times before and people always hacked em. I would never put HP inks in an Epson printer or vice versa. Yea you might play around with it in a desktop unit but you could easily destroy a big printer it seems to me. HP and Canon inks are designed to be heated and projected in a different way.
The advantage of diluting the HP inks is that they are already neutral so it's a no brainer with metamerism control by only using one hue for everything. I still don't know if the new Epson grays are still greenish brown.
Certainly event and sports photographers probably couldn't care less. But those shooting landscapes and fine art prints probably do, and, the bigger and more expensive the print, the more it matters. Trouble is, that's only a small segment of the photography market.
Why not run Piezography Carbon, with a few coloured inks for toning?
Really, carbon, gold or platinum nanoparticles are the way to go if you want non-fading prints. Carbon doesn't fade. Gold and platinum barely corrode. By adjusting the size of pigment particles, you can achieve any possible colour, all using the same pigment. I believe there is a company which has produced inks based on that (not on a commercial scale), but can't find their website at the moment.
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I do print piezography carbon K7. All my own work is done on it and most of the best bw for my clients as well. Personally I like the print color, to me it makes the prints richer than neutral prints. A lot of people are scared of warm prints for some reason.
I know - I've used your services for a few black-and-white jobs before. I like the warm tone for many subjects - ancient ruins and 'warm' landscapes in particular - but prefer a more neutral-to-cool black for ultra-modern, steel-and-glass urban scenes, and for night landscapes.
I guess it would be possible to set up toning by using the new Epson pigments in combination with piezography because at least in the past the inks were totally compatible, in an Epson printer. Epson says there is no way you can put third party inks in these new printers, but they have said that many times before and people always hacked em. I would never put HP inks in an Epson printer or vice versa. Yea you might play around with it in a desktop unit but you could easily destroy a big printer it seems to me. HP and Canon inks are designed to be heated and projected in a different way.
I believe Paul Roark has been mixing MIS Eboni inks and HP Vivera inks in Epson printers with a lot of success.
I've even seen an Epson 3880 in a lab printing out sheets of liver cells. Those things can print with almost anything.
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With that new inkset Canon did just that, pull the rug out from under photographers. They are giving the photo world right back to Epson.
I'm not so sure about that. I highly doubt the 45-60 year claims for this inkset were done using the same criteria as the 100+ year claims for previous inksets, or the 200-year claims for the new Epson inkset.
After all, 45 years until 'perceptible' change (Aardenburg criteria) is very different to 45 years until 30% density loss (Wilhelm criteria), and 45 years in a dimly-lit, 120-lux room is very different from 45 years in a brightly-lit room (500-2000 lux).
With different criteria, it's like measuring one set of temperatures in Celcius and another in Fahrenheit, then saying that the 100F object is hotter than the 60C object because the number's bigger.
I don't think we can really say which inkset performs best without some formal test results.
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I know one thing, I don't believe a word of any "in house" testing figures. Over the last 15 years I've been burned many times buy such self-serving data. They would have to prove they are totally objective, and how are they going to do that. It sounds like more of a pr screw-up than anything.
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I know one thing, I don't believe a word of any "in house" testing figures. Over the last 15 years I've been burned many times buy such self-serving data. They would have to prove they are totally objective, and how are they going to do that. It sounds like more of a pr screw-up than anything.
Pretty much. And we've seen it cut both ways - some in-house figures significantly underestimated their performance, while others grossly overestimated it. Hopefully Aardenburg Imaging can get the funding it needs to perform some independent tests.
I would like to see these new inksets tested side-by-side on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm, with no laminate or other coating, possibly with a known quantity (e.g. Ultrachrome K3, Ultrachrome HDR or Lucia EX) as a control.
We already have a lot of information on the relative permanence of papers – those with good longevity tend to have better readings with every inkset than papers with poor longevity. For example, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320mg tends to have better longevity than Epson Hot Press Natural, and that holds true with every inkset. It’s not as if Paper A might outperform Paper B with Lucia EX, but Paper B outperforms Paper A with Ultrachrome K3 – where one paper outperforms another, it tends to outperform it regardless of which inkset is tested. So, we can already rank papers as to which ones have better permanence and choose our media based on that.
We can also rank inksets by permanence. As a general rule, HP Vivera > Lucia EX (although this is very close on many papers) > Ultrachrome HDR (although this gets a lot better with a RIP to minimise the use of yellow ink) > Ultrachrome K3. This ranking tends to hold true regardless of what paper the inks are tested on.
What we don’t know is where these new inksets fit into the hierarchy. Do the new Epson inksets outlast Lucia EX? Does Canon’s new Lucia Pro inkset outlast Vivera (showing that Canon’s new permanence claims are much more conservative than previous ones), or have they gone backwards?
So, we need to test all the new inksets on the same paper to get a relative ranking – preferably a well-established, well-known paper that has a lot of data from other inksets so that we can make a good comparison. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm fits the bill perfectly – it’s one of the most commonly-used high-end papers, there is a lot of data available for it (practically every pigment inkset tested on Aardenburg has been tested on it) and it’s a consistent product which has been around for a long time (so there shouldn’t be too much variation between batches or changes to the formula). With a set of data from the new inksets on it, we would be able to see where the new inks fit into the longevity hierarchy and choose an inkset based on that, no matter what medium we decide to print on. (i.e. if Canon Lucia Pro outperforms Lucia EX on Photo Rag 308, it should also outperform Lucia EX on every other paper).
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I have been in touch with the HP DesignJet Worldwide Strategic Marketing Manager in Barcelona, and he has told me that HP will be continuing to manufacture the HP Z3200ps Series (no info on how long) and that in any event, HP will continue to supply inks at least 5 years after the printers are discontinued.
So that question is answered. I am not at liberty to divulge any more information than that, but at least we know how long they are committed, at a minimum, to supplying inks after the product is no longer being manufactured. I assume this goes for support as well .
-Mark
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I am not at liberty to divulge any more information than that, but at least we know how long they are committed, at a minimum, to supplying inks after the product is no longer being manufactured. I assume this goes for support as well .
-Mark
So by not divulging more information, could they be working on a next-gen printer?
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No Comment.
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(...)and he has told me that HP will be continuing to manufacture the HP Z3200ps Series (no info on how long) and that in any event, HP will continue to supply inks at least 5 years after the printers are discontinued.
The problem I see is the volume of production and distribution. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find inks and heads for the Z3200. Here in Brazil HP has the biggest market share if you put the fine art and signage markets together but not even that makes our life easier.
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No Comment.
That [lack of]comment of yours is music to my ears! ;D
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No Comment.
Well I hope they pick up the pace. My Z3100 is on its last legs.
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The problem I see is the volume of production and distribution. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find inks and heads for the Z3200. Here in Brazil HP has the biggest market share if you put the fine art and signage markets together but not even that makes our life easier.
We're expecting a visit to our studios next month, so I may (not for sure) be able to tell you more about what's going on.
I can say that the Barcelona team is, apparently, alive and well, however.
Stay tuned, right?
-Mark
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Well I hope they pick up the pace. My Z3100 is on its last legs.
Well, given that the Z3100 is and has long been discontinued, there are still tons of parts available for it, and inks, and printheads.
Beyond that, well there's always
CRAIGSLIST NYC- Z3100 (https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=rel&query=hp%20z3100)
Better move fast if you want a 24" Z3100. An incredible deal it looks like.
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We're expecting a visit to our studios next month, so I may (not for sure) be able to tell you more about what's going on.
I can say that the Barcelona team is, apparently, alive and well, however.
Stay tuned, right?
-Mark
Will wait for the update. The Barcelona team was the one responsible for the Z3100/Z3200, yeah?
That said, HP's management has changed several times over the years - who knows what they're thinking. Although some sort of announcement - any sort - would be good, since the added certainty would be great news for their products.
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Will wait for the update. The Barcelona team was the one responsible for the Z3100/Z3200, yeah?
Yeah.
That said, HP's management has changed several times over the years
Yeah
Who knows what they're thinking.
Yeah
Although some sort of announcement - any sort - would be good, since the added certainty would be great news for their products.
Yeah
:)
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Yes, please do keep us posted, Mark. My Z3100 fan has started screaming. I don't know that I'm up for soldering in my NYC apartment. I'm finally considering switching over to the Epson P7000 or the Canon Pro 2000.
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If you can spend $150.00 you can get a replacement power supply
HERE (http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=Q6718-67005)
An OEM power supply that has a new fan in it. Pretty easy to unplug and take out the old and put back the new.
Don't forget about the micro drip technology - no clogs, the ability to make profiles instantly, and the awesome inkset. The learning curve is steep on new equipment compared to having mastered the Z3100.
$150 and a few hours and you're back in the saddle.
Mark
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Will wait for the update. The Barcelona team was the one responsible for the Z3100/Z3200, yeah?
Johan Lammens still works there, in the past he was usually the representative of the engineering department at the Z presentations. I think he also was the main developer of the profiling software we have in Color Center. Flemish of origin, polite and someone with the right answers on difficult questions. Will be higher in the ranks now I guess.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Well, the exceptional thing about the HPs is really the ink, rather than the printer itself. The ink is super-long-lived on every medium, not just a few where Canon's Lucia EX matches it, and, for most purposes, has decent gamut and Dmax.
Sure, the printer itself is very nice in some ways (cheap, easily-changed heads and other parts, inbuilt spectro), not so great in others (handling of ultra-thick media), but, really, those are secondary to the inks. If push came to shove, I'd be just as happy running the inks through a Canon printer (would probably draw the line at Epson's clog-prone, no-backup-nozzle head though).
If they do come out with a new printer and line of inks, I can only hope that they're just as lightfast, if not more so, and sacrifice none of their longevity in order to boost their short-term saturation. Heavier pigment load or extra colours for greater Dmax and gamut would be very nice, but not if it comes at the expense of longevity. After all, if that's what you're after, Epson's already offering it in spades.
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Hp Vivera inks still lead all the others in dmax on matte media. I used to get 1.8 on Canson R Photographique before they changed the coating which lowered it to 1.74 right now. My Canon printer with that same paper is 1.66, and the old Ultrachrome HD was 1.64. On the Platine and other fiber gloss media I don't notice a difference in dmax between the 8300 and the Z, but I'll measure it to see. Also after I spray the fiber gloss stuff with Hahnemuhle the dmax goes up.
I don't know why Canson changed their coating last year. My friends across the country have noticed it though so I measured it and they are right, it dropped. Epson Hot Press is a little better and probably Photorag too now. But it isn't a big deal to me on either printer. Other than the black point I don't see a change in the Photographique. Just received a roll of the Epson Legacy Fiber and so far the prints look exactly like the others with K7 but I'll measure the dmax on that too as well as the Epson Platine I just got.
john
Well, the exceptional thing about the HPs is really the ink, rather than the printer itself. The ink is super-long-lived on every medium, not just a few where Canon's Lucia EX matches it, and, for most purposes, has decent gamut and Dmax.
Sure, the printer itself is very nice in some ways (cheap, easily-changed heads and other parts, inbuilt spectro), not so great in others (handling of ultra-thick media), but, really, those are secondary to the inks. If push came to shove, I'd be just as happy running the inks through a Canon printer (would probably draw the line at Epson's clog-prone, no-backup-nozzle head though).
If they do come out with a new printer and line of inks, I can only hope that they're just as lightfast, if not more so, and sacrifice none of their longevity in order to boost their short-term saturation. Heavier pigment load or extra colours for greater Dmax and gamut would be very nice, but not if it comes at the expense of longevity. After all, if that's what you're after, Epson's already offering it in spades.
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Hp Vivera inks still lead all the others in dmax on matte media. I used to get 1.8 on Canson R Photographique before they changed the coating which lowered it to 1.74 right now. My Canon printer with that same paper is 1.66, and the old Ultrachrome HD was 1.64. On the Platine and other fiber gloss media I don't notice a difference in dmax between the 8300 and the Z, but I'll measure it to see. Also after I spray the fiber gloss stuff with Hahnemuhle the dmax goes up.
I don't know why Canson changed their coating last year. My friends across the country have noticed it though so I measured it and they are right, it dropped. Epson Hot Press is a little better and probably Photorag too now. But it isn't a big deal to me on either printer. Other than the black point I don't see a change in the Photographique. Just received a roll of the Epson Legacy Fiber and so far the prints look exactly like the others with K7 but I'll measure the dmax on that too as well as the Epson Platine I just got.
john
What sort of Dmax are you getting with Vivera ink when you apply a glossy coating (e.g. Timeless or Glamour) to a print made on matte paper? I've been using that method for some glossy or satin prints, since it gives you a far stronger, less flake-prone surface than a simple glossy print sprayed with a solvent-based protective spray.
Do you know whether the new Canson coating has better longevity than the old one? The old one was very resistant to flaking and cracking, and, if it also had better Dmax, the new one had better offer some sort of improvement...
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Given how long ago the Z3200 was designed I'm surprised that the price of a new unit seems to be quite a bit more than newer models from Canon and Epson. Perhaps Canon and Epson have moved manufacturing to China or other low wage areas and HP still has higher production costs.
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Given how long ago the Z3200 was designed I'm surprised that the price of a new unit seems to be quite a bit more than newer models from Canon and Epson. Perhaps Canon and Epson have moved manufacturing to China or other low wage areas and HP still has higher production costs.
Hmmmmm. Do the New Canon and Epson printers have an embedded spectrophotometer?
If they are available, add that to the price and how does is stack up then?
If they don't have an optional ESP, then just add the cost of an i1 Pro system to the base model printers.
Maybe close?
;D
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The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.
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The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.
Hey Ron, good to see you here man - I remember the days when you had the Z3100. Great machine.
Yeah, the SC P7000 has an option:
"24" SpectroProofer UVS for SureColor P7000
An optional high performance in-line spectrophotometer developed jointly with X-Rite. Provides automated color measurement directly on supported Epson SureColor P-series printers when driven by a supporting 3rd party workflow RIP. Features software selectable illuminates between M0, M1 and M2.
Part Number: SPECTRO24UVS
Sounds like an expensive option and not as integrated as the ESP in the Z3200ps printers.
I'm sure it's a great printer, but hey the Z3200 is the Z3200, LOL....
-Mark
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The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.
When I was at The Photography Show in Birmingham on Tuesday, I asked someone from X-Rite about the one for the P7000 (since I was just finishing up my P7000 review) and why it couldn't be controlled by / used with i1 Profiler?
The 'best' suggestion was to use the Spectroproofer utility, create a text file and import it... Whilst it would be nice for it to be usable like an i1iSis, I guess that the number of them supplied, and the market they are aimed at makes such integration not worth developing. There is an SDK for RIP developers.
As to an update to the 3200... In the UK recently, HP had a marketing campaign aimed at photographers, which if you quickly read through might have given the (entirely unintentional I'm sure) impression that there was a new large format HP. It was the same old 3200. Just to be sure, I filled in the enquiry form and had a call back pretty soon - yes it was the same printer I'd looked at in 2009 and no, there was nothing new about it :-(
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As to an update to the 3200... In the UK recently, HP had a marketing campaign aimed at photographers, which if you quickly read through might have given the (entirely unintentional I'm sure) impression that there was a new large format HP. It was the same old 3200. Just to be sure, I filled in the enquiry form and had a call back pretty soon - yes it was the same printer I'd looked at in 2009 and no, there was nothing new about it :-(
Hi Keith,
Have you ever used a Z3200ps printer? I understand nothing has changed since 2009, but then there is the old adage, as has been said,
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I believe this printer is so good that although there are some improvements I'd like to see, if HP would continue to manufacture it for a good while longer, I'd be happy, and so would, I'm sure, many others. It would be interesting to see what a new printer would bring in the way of changes, but I'd worry that the best things about the printer might be fiddled with....
If you have never used the Z series printers, I urge you to try them. They might surprise you.
Those beautiful architectural images you do would be stunning printed on a Z Series 3200ps 44".
-Mark
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The current model's already very good, but, given eight years of refinements and seeing what's been done the last few years by other companies, it wouldn't be hard to come up with an even better printer for photo lab purposes. Although most of them would really be refinements or changes to the chassis - the core components (the inks, ink supply system and print heads) are very solid.
- Different feed system to get rid of pizza wheel/roller marks
- Wider platen gap for thicker media
- Horizontal feed path to allow flatbed function for rigid media
- A greater variety of widths available (17", 24", 36" and 44" would be great)
But I wouldn't want any of that at the expense of ink permanence and easily-replaceable/non-clogging print heads - the two biggest pluses of the Z3200. No matter what new features they introduce in a new model, if they changed either of those two things, it wouldn't be anywhere near as attractive as the current model.
Although I wouldn't mind an ultimate model with even more inks for the greatest possible gamut - a stronger green, plus a violet and a brown (since these are usually the saturated colours hardest to do well, plus vivid greens and brown are very common in nature).
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The current model's already very good, but, given eight years of refinements and seeing what's been done the last few years by other companies, it wouldn't be hard to come up with an even better printer for photo lab purposes. Although most of them would really be refinements or changes to the chassis - the core components (the inks, ink supply system and print heads) are very solid.
- Different feed system to get rid of pizza wheel/roller marks
- Wider platen gap for thicker media
- Horizontal feed path to allow flatbed function for rigid media
- A greater variety of widths available (17", 24", 36" and 44" would be great)
But I wouldn't want any of that at the expense of ink permanence and easily-replaceable/non-clogging print heads - the two biggest pluses of the Z3200. No matter what new features they introduce in a new model, if they changed either of those two things, it wouldn't be anywhere near as attractive as the current model.
Although I wouldn't mind an ultimate model with even more inks for the greatest possible gamut - a stronger green, plus a violet and a brown (since these are usually the saturated colours hardest to do well, plus vivid greens and brown are very common in nature).
I think the trend is to be doing more with less ink unfortunately. Although I wouldn't want to have to deal with 15-16 ink cartridges - 12 is hard enough to keep up with. I concur about the inks and printheads, they are the two biggest plusses.
I would love to have a cassette tray for sizes up to 17x22 that plugged in to the front of the printer. Doubt that will happen, but it could from the back with some re-engineering.
If they came out with the same model in 17x22 with same inks and ESP and printheads, micro drop technology, etc., I'd buy it.
That is a segment of the market that would be great for HP IMHO. Being able to load a full box of paper into a cassette and then print out a portfolio would be fantastic. For 13x19 and 17x22, I prefer sheets that are uniform and don't have to be decurled. Takes a long time to load them individually.
The Epson 4800 Pro is a fantastic printer in that regard. Sheet or roll and it has a cassette tray. And it has free clogs too...
-Mark
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There are plenty of solvent printers out there which run 16 inks - four sets of CMYK. Good for high-speed commercial sign printing, not much use for photography or fine art. If they ran sixteen different inks, including extra colours and light inks...
If you wanted to get a wider gamut with fewer inks, you'd need to make them much more concentrated - probably so much so that you'd need a ly, and possibly a llm and llc as well. It's probably easier to use slightly less concentrated inks in more colours...
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There are plenty of solvent printers out there which run 16 inks - four sets of CMYK. Good for high-speed commercial sign printing, not much use for photography or fine art. If they ran sixteen different inks, including extra colours and light inks...
If you wanted to get a wider gamut with fewer inks, you'd need to make them much more concentrated - probably so much so that you'd need a ly, and possibly a llm and llc as well. It's probably easier to use slightly less concentrated inks in more colours...
I can't see HP doing a fine art printer requiring those kinds of modular pressure valves. Again, I'd rather they not fiddle with the ink set, unless it is to improve certain inks like they did with the red of the 3100 becoming chromata red of the 3200. It doesn't matter to me if the Z3200 remains anachronistic. I prefer it that way. But we'll see what HP has in mind for the future eventually.
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We're expecting a visit to our studios next month, so I may (not for sure) be able to tell you more about what's going on.
I can say that the Barcelona team is, apparently, alive and well, however.
Stay tuned, right?
-Mark
Any news on further progress by HP?
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Any news on further progress by HP?
Flying from Barcelona to my studio in Florida this coming Tuesday, then flying back on Wednesday,
We'll have a good day long meeting.
Very much looking forward to it.
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Flying from Barcelona to my studio in Florida this coming Tuesday, then flying back on Wednesday,
We'll have a good day long meeting.
Very much looking forward to it.
So... any good news?
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So... any good news?
Yes, but I still can't give details. We had a great day - I just got back from dropping him off at the airport to catch his flight back to Barcelona. He's bringing 20 prints back with him. Really, it's HP's position and responsibility to make statements, not mine. I can say that they are extremely proud of their accomplishment with the Z Series printers, and they've been highly involved with other printers for the commercial market and have been concentrating in other areas which is why we haven't seen or heard much from them. It remains to be seen what they do going forward.
I had a lot of suggestions and he had a lot of questions. We had breakfast at 7:30 AM, in the studio, then we did a studio tour, throughout our 15,000 sq. ft facility, then concentrated on looking at my work. We looked at about 150 prints, 30+ canvases and several dye sub prints on aluminum. We talked a lot about longevity of papers, archival storage, and many many topics I can't discuss. I can say that in all probability, in the future, we will most likely be pleased. I'm sorry I can't say more, like I said, it is up to HP to make announcements. It was a fantastic visit, and we were honored to have him here for a day at Art Camp (what we call our studio).
That's about all I can say. There were no NDA's, just a gentlemen's agreement and I intend on keeping it.
Mark
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Yes, but I still can't give details. We had a great day - I just got back from dropping him off at the airport to catch his flight back to Barcelona. He's bringing 20 prints back with him. Really, it's HP's position and responsibility to make statements, not mine. I can say that they are extremely proud of their accomplishment with the Z Series printers, and they've been highly involved with other printers for the commercial market and have been concentrating in other areas which is why we haven't seen or heard much from them. It remains to be seen what they do going forward.
I had a lot of suggestions and he had a lot of questions. We had breakfast at 7:30 AM, in the studio, then we did a studio tour, throughout our 15,000 sq. ft facility, then concentrated on looking at my work. We looked at about 150 prints, 30+ canvases and several dye sub prints on aluminum. We talked a lot about longevity of papers, archival storage, and many many topics I can't discuss. I can say that in all probability, in the future, we will most likely be pleased. I'm sorry I can't say more, like I said, it is up to HP to make announcements. It was a fantastic visit, and we were honored to have him here for a day at Art Camp (what we call our studio).
That's about all I can say. There were no NDA's, just a gentlemen's agreement and I intend on keeping it.
Mark
Sounds good - hoping for a Z3300 at some stage, with the same, durable Vivera inks and idiot-proof head design. Or at least an announcement of some sort from HP - any news would give a big boost in confidence in HP's continuing involvement in the photography/art printer market.
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;)
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I would be sorely tempted if a Z3300 came out, I have really liked my Z3100s (24 and 44).
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Wow:
I just realized that despite not paying for the privilege of reading Luminous Landscape News, I can still post to the Forums!!
Just wanted to add my 2 cents about what a great printer HP made in the Z. The one thing that neither Mark or the "shadow" have noted about the printer is the algorithm HP uses to lay down the ink. It uses about 2X the Lt Gray ink and any other color in their undercolor removal scheme. This results in a much more neutral looking print, less prone to non-linear fading and much less metamerism. I know the older Epson printers used about 2X the Lt Magenta & Lt Cyan inks, which resulted in greater print to print inconsistencies and a non-linear fade result.
John Nollendorfs
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Add me to the list of those who would eagerly jump at the opportunity for a Z3300.
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Hoping for some news at Photokina 2016...
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It’s been a long time now since all the speculation about HP manufacturing a new printer. It’s a very interesting read, considering that now HP has indeed continued to stay in the fine art printing market with the advent of the Z6 and Z9+ printers.
Interesting to see how how many viewed HP as being out of the game.
Kudos to HP for continuing the Z Series printer line. Time will tell, again how the Z9 stacks up against the Z3200. At the time, I had a very good idea that HP would be bringing the Z9 out, but just couldn’t say.
I’m hoping that the Z9+ will prove to be as good if not better that the Z3200.
Bringing this to the forefront again, simply as a historical record of where we stodd on this issue in light of the new development of HP’s Z series printer offerings.
Mark