Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Tonsil on April 28, 2006, 01:59:12 pm
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HI,
Been hearing good things about this paper.
Anything more to tell? I've used Silver Rag by Crane and appreciate the attempt but I don't like the bumps and the base is to warm for my taste.
Innova is a clean white base?
Surface bumps? Does it match the surface of a traditional darkroom fiber paper like a graded Gallery from Ilford?
Anyone using rolls in this paper? And, are they available? If anyone has tried the roll version...How difficult is it to flatten? This is a heavy base comparable to Silver rag..No?
Oh, has anyone been printing color work with this product?
Lengevity? Are Innova or Da Vanci making any claims right out of the gate?
Any other thoughts would be appreciated?
Thanks folks, much appreciated in advance of responses. I know, lots of questions there.
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I just came back from PhotoImaging World in Sydney. While there, I picked up some Innova FibaPrint Gloss/Ultrachrome K3 samples. It's nothing like any paper I've seen, traditional or digital ... but very striking. I'm going to get some to try (availability is a couple of weeks). Fairly white but not objectionable. Hard to describe but a very fine (but shiny) lustre that lets the texture of the base show through. Typical lustre artifacts like gloss differential and a solarized look (if held at an angle). A great replacement for resin-coated for commercial use. Great hand feel. I would think sheets rather than rolls would be a better way to go. Rag is still looking the best option for large prints behind glass, IMHO.
I also saw a single sample of Hahnemühle Fine Art Pearl which is quite different again. Very white. Very fine but duller lustre. I'm interested enough to try some but it didn't get me excited like the Innova FibaPrint Gloss.
I haven't seen Crane's Silver Rag to compare. It's on my list!
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I just came back from PhotoImaging World in Sydney. While there, I picked up some Innova FibaPrint Gloss/Ultrachrome K3 samples. It's nothing like any paper I've seen, traditional or digital ... but very striking. I'm going to get some to try (availability is a couple of weeks). Fairly white but not objectionable. Hard to describe but a very fine (but shiny) lustre that lets the texture of the base show through. Typical lustre artifacts like gloss differential and a solarized look (if held at an angle). A great replacement for resin-coated for commercial use. Great hand feel. I would think sheets rather than rolls would be a better way to go. Rag is still looking the best option for large prints behind glass, IMHO.
I also saw a single sample of Hahnemühle Fine Art Pearl which is quite different again. Very white. Very fine but duller lustre. I'm interested enough to try some but it didn't get me excited like the Innova FibaPrint Gloss.
I haven't seen Crane's Silver Rag to compare. It's on my list!
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I took delivery of a 50 sheet box from shadesofpaper.com. Unfortunately, I've been too busy to print more than a couple tests. What they've showed me is that there is definately a texture, I don't know how they can call it a F surface gloss. The closest I've found is the Ilford Smooth Gloss but it's not an archival paper by any means.
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What they've showed me is that there is definately a texture, I don't know how they can call it a F surface gloss.
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Innova's Product Guide describes it as having an "ultra-smooth glossy surface". Anybody buying it as such will be sorely disappointed. The closest I can think of is highest quality offset printing on a heavyweight textured stock with a varnish. It's a very classy paper and guaranteed to impress a client as the results of a shoot. I'll have a better handle on it when I get to try some for myself.
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Stephen,
What do you mean by sorely disappointed?
Is it not ultra smooth? As bumpy as Silver Rag by Crane?
Most traditional printing papers have a tiny bit of texture. Based on descriptions I've read before, this paer is very close to the look of a silver gel paper.
Anyone else?
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In the UK (and I believe in some other European countries) this paper is called DaVinci Fibre Gloss. It's a really interesting paper that takes both colour and black and white exceptionally well. It's slightly warmer than most Epson papers, with a look and texture that's very close to many traditional darkroom papers. I've been looking for the closest comparison I can find from my thirty years of darkroom work, there's an Agfa paper I used to use about fifteen years ago that looks very, very similar but I can't for the life of me remember the name.
Downsides? Well, there's two that spring to mind. First the edges are sometimes left with a slightly ragged look, not ragged like hand-made paper, but with the occasional loose fibre, plus it's best to lightly brush the surface first before printing as there's often loose dust particles clinging to the surface. The second downside is that this paper really rewards having a profile professionally made for your individual printer. If you buy the paper in the UK from "paper and inks" they'll arrange this for you. The results with the correct profile are superb. I can thoroughly recommend this paper, one of the absolute best inkjet papers I've ever used.
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Is it not ultra smooth? As bumpy as Silver Rag by Crane?
Most traditional printing papers have a tiny bit of texture. Based on descriptions I've read before, this paer is very close to the look of a silver gel paper.
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It's not "ultra smooth". It's slightly textured, but a lot more attractive than resin-coated papers with a "pearl" surface. I haven't yet seen Silver Rag ... there's limited quantities available in the country. Also it currently sells for a 50% premium over FibaPrint Gloss.
FibaPrint Gloss is like no traditional paper I've seen. I wouldn't get too hung up on matching favourite papers from your past. This is an inkjet paper and inkjet prints will always have different qualities to silver gelatin, type "C" etc. The prints I've been producing from my 4800/7800 leave traditional prints for dead in aesthetics and overall display qualities, not to mention the absolute control I have over them.
Try some for yourself and see what sort of applications you can exploit it for ... this is what I intend to do.
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I wonder if the discussion is focused on the same paper? The Innova site lists two versions, Glossy & UltraSmooth.
I've just tried the UltraSmooth, & it is not smooth, let alone ultra. It looks more like Photo Rag Satin than like a smooth surface photo paper (air-dried Kodak F, Agfa 111).
So I assume the favorable remarks above are about what's really in the title of this thread - the truly Glossy version?
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I wonder if the discussion is focused on the same paper? The Innova site lists two versions, Glossy & UltraSmooth.
I've just tried the UltraSmooth, & it is not smooth, let alone ultra. It looks more like Photo Rag Satin than like a smooth surface photo paper (air-dried Kodak F, Agfa 111).
So I assume the favorable remarks above are about what's really in the title of this thread - the truly Glossy version?
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The samples I have are labeled "Innova FibaPrint Gloss 300gsm". This is described as having an "ultra-smooth glossy surface" on Innova's site:
[a href=\"http://www.innovaart.com/serve.php?dir=doc&file=Fiba+gloss+review.pdf]http://www.innovaart.com/serve.php?dir=doc...loss+review.pdf[/url]
Personally, I don't care how they describe it ... nor see the point of endlessly debating what it looks like when people can just buy some to try for themselves.
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In the UK (and I believe in some other European countries) this paper is called DaVinci Fibre Gloss.
In the UK it is also called Innova Fibaprint Gloss and is available from www.squidtechnology.com. They had a May Day Bank Holiday special (-10%), so I ordered A2 sheets and a 24 inch roll.
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Stephen, these products are expensive and there are no samples to be had. Personally, I welcome any clarification. The descriptions of these papers and other products in the digital photo world are often not accurate and I am tired of buying what is supposed to be the next end all and finding that is just not what it is supposed to be. And no, Im not "hung up". Im weary and wary of what I buy because if I wasn't I'd be in the poor house. I ordered a box of this paper to try so that might make you fell better.
I do believe that the "ultra smooth" is an uncoated paper? Let me know if otherewise is discovered.
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The descriptions of these papers and other products in the digital photo world are often not accurate and I am tired of buying what is supposed to be the next end all and finding that is just not what it is supposed to be.
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Which is why I go to trade shows and look what's available, pester importers for samples etc. I wouldn't go out and buy a dozen rolls just because somebody raves about them on the 'net either. No one paper is going to be perfect for every application and everybody's aesthetics are different anyway. Most papers really need some work to make them sing, and I'm not just talking about good profiles. Personally, I found the FibaPrint Gloss an interesting and attractive paper, enough that I'm going to invest in a box to see what I can do with it. Whether I find a personal or commercial use for it remains to be seen. I hope it works out for you, but without trying it you won't know for yourself.
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If you don't mind, Stephen, we'll just keep trying - with the paper hard to find & the price high - to tell one another what we see, so that others can decide whether or not they want to pursue it.
I've now tried both versions of the "Fiba" paper, labelled Glossy & Ultrasmooth.
Innova's profiles aren't very good, at least for the 4000; if you do anything more than test these papers, you'll need custom profiles right away.
The "Glossy" is not; it looks like HPR Satin that's been ironed so that the bumps are a little flatter. It is capable of rich blacks. I wouldn't want to say much about its color range without a better profile. The claim that it looks like an air-dried F surface is hokum (ancient American expression). None of us in the building where I work (3 photo studios/printers) liked the surface. I'd suggest that folks wait until they see (or hear) more about how it looks in comparison to Silver Rag & Hahnemuhle FAP.
IMO the Ultrasmooth version is the more interesting of the two. It looks like heavyweight or fine-art quality Enhanced Matte. It's smoother than either Ultrasmooth or HPR, & as bright as HPR's new Bright White. It comes out of the package with a serious curl that requires repeated manual re-loadings in a 4000. It contains OBs & this may raise some questions about print permanence. In color the tones are skewed with the Innova profile, but it makes excellent non-bronzed BW prints with QTR on 4000 or Advanced BW on 4800. Because of the brightened paper base, it has clearer highlights than Epson Ultrasmooth, and the blacks - though I'm not equipped to measure them - look much richer.
If I can find the patience to load 15 sheets of it in the printer, I'll try to print on it for the May or June digitalblack&white print exchange.
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(excuse my faulty English)
I now tried the Permajet Fibre base Gloss, which I hear is the same as the Innova paper.
I never worked in a traditional darkroom, so I can not compare it to these papers, up till now I used several matte Hahnemühle papers and I like the look. I use Imageprint for the Epson 4800 and used the Innova profile as they have not built a profile for the Permajet paper yet (Innova paper is difficult to get here in Germany).
The pictures I made ( all color) have IMO more "punch" than the matte papers due to a higher contrast (D - Max), so I would like to use this type of paper in the future. But used to the matte papers I have one big problem: due to the glossy surface I find it extremely difficult to look at this pictures without annoying glare ( paper size A 2 ). It is always there in some part of the image, so compared site by site the same image on the matte paper is IMO much more pleasent for the eye than the "technical" better Permajet image. So I would like to get the qualities of these new papers combined with a true matte finish, propably wishful thinking. Any suggestions how to live with this glare.
Best Regards
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It would help if we understood what you meant by glare. Do you mean bronzing and/or gloss differential?
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It would help if we understood what you meant by glare. Do you mean bronzing and/or gloss differential?
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Sorry my English.
Yes there is some gloss diff. (in blown out highlights) but it can be fixed with some spray.
No, I am talking about the intense sheen or reflections, it is not specific to this paper but to all glossy papers. I just find it hard to enjoy this kind of papers if you have always to turn your head around not to get this sheen in your eyes from some part of the picture, especially if you print large.
Propably I am just to used to matte papers which can be viewed from all angles and under nearly any lightning conditions, it is certainly a non issue for most people.
Maybe the Hahnemühle FineArt Pearl will become a good compromise for me, as it should be a little bit less glossy.
P.S. Does anybody know for sure whether the Permajet paper is identical with the Innova paper ??
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P.S. Does anybody know for sure whether the Permajet paper is identical with the Innova paper ??
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I just purchased the innova gloss product, from shades of paper in Southern NJ. I have been unable to obtain the permajet product as reviewed in BJP), but my understanding is that the paper mill, in Hong Kong, exports this paper to mutiple distributors in the UK (same product with 3 different brand names) and the US, where it is sold as Innova Fibre Gloss.
I have been trying to get "air dried gloss" look for 2 years now, and have yet to be completely happy. The Innova, and Hahnemule silver pearl are amongst the closest so far, although the older Lyson darkroom gloss (dye inks only) was I believe closer.
Ultimately I suspect that an ultrasmooth brightened matt paper, that is sprayed / overcoated after printing with a "semigloss" spray will be my solution.
j peterson
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I just started using fibraprint to print old black and whites photographs that will be displayed at the Soup2Nuts Adobe show in Ann Arbor on June 23-24. The photographs were taken in Appalachia in the late fifties and early sixties. This paper is absolutely fabulous....all the qualities of gelatin silver, plus even more detail. Stephen Johnson recommended this paper to me.....
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, but my understanding is that the paper mill, in Hong Kong, exports this paper to mutiple distributors in the UK (same product with 3 different brand names) and the US, where it is sold as Innova Fibre Gloss.
igloss" spray will be my solution.
j peterson
/quote]
Hong Kong eh?
I had been under the impression that Innova papers came from an English mill.
Not that it matters. It just raises a point about paper sources that are ambivalent when not coming from a recognised mill source, say Crane, Hahnemuhle, Lana, Magnani, St Cuthberts etc.
With Innova, BreathingColor and house brands sources are difficult to determine , and in some cases (not, in my experience, the two companies mentioned), sources and quality control may vary.
This type of "third party" supplier can be an advantage where suppliers source excellent papers from one source and coatings from another. Some mills , that I will not name , produce fine paper but have not yet embraced appropriate coating technologies for digital printing. Everyone is working on it and I may not be able to make that comment in a couple of years. On the other hand there are some quite poor papers. One I have tested, not from any of the sources mentioned, has shown very rapid yellowing , due I suspect to use of cheap, poor quality optical brightening agents, but there could be a myriad of other reasons.
Finding out where papers come from has more value as a fun detective exercise than anything else, but I would not mind knowing where the cotton or wood that makes up the paper is sourced.
Most paper mills are now situated in countries with limited alpha cellulose resources.
I wonder how long it will be before Burmese rainforest timber ends up in some fine art paper?
Most fine art papers are cotton , but that opens another bag of worms.
Means of production is a no go area in our globalised world , but I just like to know where things come from. I can then make my choices.
Cheers,
Brian Gilkes
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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My understanding was that it (innova fibrgloss and da Vincii) is from the UK as well. Heard this from two sources...Shades of paper and from a rep at Lexjet in the US...Lexjet is also selling this very same paper under the name, "Sunset air-dried gloss". The guy said it was the same paper. They had cut sheets in stock and were waiting on rolls. Same situation with Shades of paper, waiting on rolls of Fibregloss. Three companies, same paper. Anyone else?
I 've been using Fibre gloss with Image Print for black and white printing in 6.1 on a 4800 and it is very nice. I like the surface better than the silver rag, more subtle in my opinon. Definite artifacts in the form of gloss differential. arkg, sick of that...spraying again.
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I 've been using Fibre gloss with Image Print for black and white printing in 6.1 on a 4800 and it is very nice. I like the surface better than the silver rag, more subtle in my opinon. Definite artifacts in the form of gloss differential. arkg, sick of that...spraying again.
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what product are you using for spraying?
thanks
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I have been using the Da Vinci Fibre gloss for a while on my 2200 with Imageprint (using the innova profiles) and like it a lot. I have not tried the Innova FBG but am aiming to get a box soon. From what I am hearing it is not far off being the same paper. Permajet also have one very similar. The downside of this paper is its pretty expensive!
It does show some signs of gloss differential (bronzing) on my 2200 (no suprises there) but only when a lot of black is in the image. It is exceptional for black and white shots IMHO. I do have to spray the b&w shots but the colour ones normally don't need to be sprayed.
I use Lyson Printgaurd for spraying (2 light coats is usually fine to get rid of bronzing).
I also here that that Premier Art PrintShield is very good (although I have heard on a few forums that is is pretty much the same stuff as the Lyson)
As for longevity of this paper - the jury is still out I think. If I can get 25+ out of it then I will be reasonably happy.
JD
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Baraka,
Same as what jdyke said but mostly print shield. Just a little bit, and as he indicated...the color prints need not much if any...black and whites seem to need more during dramatic tonal changes, gloss differentail issues. Still, just a light coating. Im on a 4800 w/Imageprint though and generally the bronzing is much much better and the gloss differential is only slightly better than the straight ultrachrome.
I just recieved a 17" roll of the Lexjet Sunset Air Dried Gloss and it does seem to be the same paper as the Innova Fibre Gloss F. Got it yesterday, haven't made a print but it looks to be the same.
I cannot wait to make some big ****ing prints.