Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: RicAgu on April 27, 2006, 11:00:45 pm
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OK,
I have been meaning to post this for a while at RG but the $#(& hit the fan there.
I have an H1 P25 combo and the 1Ds Mark II.
I think 22MP is more than enough for what most of us need. Although the ASA range has always kind of sucked on the Aptus and Phase.
The wonderful people at Leaf America were so kind as to loan me an Aptus 75 for a week. I must say that it was astonishing! The files were awesome the 800 ASA was insane and at 400 it was breathtaking. I had the two covers with it one at 800 and one at 400. I hate the size of the files and manging it all. I love the naming of files and the ease of the back. Everything is at your finger tips. I only shot to card and did not use the supplied caddy or shoot tethered. I am still learning my way around the LC10 from C1Pro. I must admit that I do love C1Pro and the ease and the way the files get processed. There is no better software out there. But the new A75 is amazing for the color and use of ASA.
I remember reading about Russel and House's issues with companies and not wanting to buy new stuff. That this was the year that we should boycott every one and not buy gear. Well, if you own a 22MP and you were able to get away with the ASA value then don't waste your money or HD space. But if you are new to this gear, are leaning in the MFDB direction or desperately need the ASA. Then I would seriously consider the Aptus 75. The company has amazing support and they are not going anywhere. I luckily have not had any bugs, issues or freezes other than something that could be done with turning it on and off.
Also, a great little gift from the camera GODS came by way of a Japanese company called Eco-Digital. The make a plate that allows me to use my MFDB made for the H1 on all my RZ gear. It has been quite amazing! I have put up my P25 for sale and will be acquring a A75 as soon as I can. Make sure you test it out, but I doubt you will be disappointed!
Best,
RA
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Rick,
these are sweet words for a man who has an Aptus 75 on order. Shame that the backorders are so long!
The wonderful people at Leaf America were so kind as to loan me an Aptus 75 for a week. I must say that it was astonishing! The files were awesome the 800 ASA was insane and at 400 it was breathtaking. But the new A75 is amazing for the color and use of ASA.
But if you are new to this gear, are leaning in the MFDB direction or desperately need the ASA. Then I would seriously consider the Aptus 75.
Did you really mean this?
they (LEAF) are not going anywhere.
RA
I think I know what you mean
I get the distinct feeling that LEAF have trounced Phase at the 33-39Mp back size.
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Defenitely meant every word. I bought my P25 used and got a great deal. I only wish I could do the same with an A75. But it will be a while before these are on the used market.
Best,
Ric
Rick,
these are sweet words for a man who has an Aptus 75 on order. Shame that the backorders are so long!
The wonderful people at Leaf America were so kind as to loan me an Aptus 75 for a week. I must say that it was astonishing! The files were awesome the 800 ASA was insane and at 400 it was breathtaking. But the new A75 is amazing for the color and use of ASA.
But if you are new to this gear, are leaning in the MFDB direction or desperately need the ASA. Then I would seriously consider the Aptus 75.
Did you really mean this?
they (LEAF) are not going anywhere.
RA
I think I know what you mean
I get the distinct feeling that LEAF have trounced Phase at the 33-39Mp back size.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=63918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We're getting rave reviews for the Aptus, and "business as usual" messages for Phase -
I think Leaf is delivering more than expected, while Phase is delivering as expected.
I also think that these companies have somehow agreed not to compete on price, but that with a real quality differential now breaking out they had better compete on price too. The interesting thing is that when products differ strongly on price then dealers will always try and sell the pricier product, so a company that wants to lower its prices has a strong incentive to deal direct.
Edmund
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One of the members of my Namibia expedition had an Aptus 75 along and I was using my P45.
We had planned on an extensive comparison but were foiled in this by the failure of a lens.
The brief comparison testing that we did manage to do showed them to be very comparable in image quality. I was very impressed with what I saw from the 75.
The difference between the two has more to do now with user interface and design gestalt than image quality. There are difference, but none that are significant or that can't be normalized in processing.
More on this in a post trip artcile some time next week.
Michael
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I also have an Aptus 75 on order. I am being told I should receive the back sometime in May - June. I tested both the Aptus75 and Phase P45 and thought the Aptus 75 produced nicer images. In the mean time I have the Aptus 22 to play with.
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One of the members of my Namibia expedition had an Aptus 75 along and I was using my P45.
We had planned on an extensive comparison but were foiled in this by the failure of a lens.
The brief comparison testing that we did manage to do showed them to be very comparable in image quality. I was very impressed with what I saw from the 75.
The difference between the two has more to do now with user interface and design gestalt than image quality. There are difference, but none that are significant or that can't be normalized in processing.
More on this in a post trip artcile some time next week.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=63937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael -
Does this mean Phase has decent 800 ISO, and live focusing ?
Edmund
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Just curious Ric,
How much do you expect to get for your P25 ?
Here in Australia the price of the backs new is near the same as it was when they first came out.
I noticed on the American sites the price dropped on new ones when the P45 and other new backs were relesed.
It's starting to feel a bit like the old days when everything is Autralia was MUCH more expensive then the US..
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Edmund,
No, neither.
But I've done 30 minute exposures that are clean as a whistle.
Michael
Ps: Thats minutes, not seconds.
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Well I'm jealous, there seem to be a flood of Aptuses of some form or another south of the border but I couldn't even get one from the Leaf rep here in Vancouver and had to demo the Valeo. And CREO is headquartered here for crying out loud.
I posted earlier with questions about the Valeo without any takers, can I ask Aptus users here if they would consider the Valeo if the price was right? It's supposed to have the same CCD as the Aptus 22. Live preview isn't a priority, this is mainly tethered shooting in studio.
Thanks,
Dave
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Answering two questions.
I hate to say it but I have seen clean great condition P25's for as low as $10k. THe minute they become available retailers snap them up. The reason the cost is so high is because there are not that many out there. Phase did great as well by giving us back so much for the back to upgrade to a P45. So the few used P25's usually come from retailers for only $5k less than the P45. I would continue to hunt them down and you may get lucky. There was one in NYC for a Contax mount on a site called Craigslist for $12k a few weeks ago.
On the Valeo front. I would not pay more than $5k for one of those. It has no screen and only shoots to caddy or tethered. if you can live with that then it is a great deal. I need a CF card slot and a screen to look at. No matter how bad the screen, at least I have a HISTO to look at.
If you are using your back on an RZ I would not buy a universal mount. What I would do is think long and hard what kind of 645 you may grow into. Whether that be the H1 or 645AFD II. Then buy that mount on your medium format back. Next go to www.eco-digital.com and by the adapter plate. If you are buying it for the H1 you have to go to Eco, if you buy it for the 645AFD II you can get a plate from Mamiya. it will also serve you better for resale in the future. As long as you are not a Hassy V series shooter.
If you are having problems getting an A75back in the great white north. Call them direct and don't settle. Call Leaf America in NY and check with them. Kevin Stuts is a great point of contact and is very helpful at Leaf. If you are serious buyer he will bend over backwards to make sure you get your time with the back. Unfortunately, I do not support the two NYC Leaf retailers. But there is a great company in Philly called Webb Photo. I may go through them as soon as I figure it all out.
They may even fly up to help you out. Ask for John or Dan at Webb.
On the Phase to Leaf front. I love my P25 but the high ISO I was not a fan of and I rarely shot at less than 250ASA in the film days. So it was tough with a ton of KINO and strobe lately. C1 pro is amazing and there is no better processing software. The leaf files were sharp, warm and looked like 100 at 400. 800 looked like MF 400 rated at 250 and with some tweaking it is amazing.
I have not had the chance to play with P45 at 400. So I can't say about that. But that it doesn't shoot at 800 killed it for me, the size of the files are insane and I like the ability to pump it to 800 if I needed it. We don't need that file size. Wish I could afford to keep the P25 and get an A75, but I cannot. I have a deal on the table with someone for $16.5K for my P25. We will see what happens. Leaf will give you a loaner A22 until your A75 comes in when you buy.
Hope this answers some of your question.
Best,
Ric
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Thanks Ric for a very thoughtful reply. It does surprise me the values these used backs command remain high and used "platforms" which arguably should be holding value in the long term are in fact not even worth the trouble of selling.
Lot's to chew over here.
Best,
Dave
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About the P45 lack of iso800 ... I know I keep going on about this, but the Phase dealer's stated reason for no pixel binning for a super clean iso800 option is appently the fear that it may be viewed as a "sales gimmick!"
Now I don't know if they are trying to cover up for not being able to implement it, but then I would have thought given they could do it for the P25, it would be possible to do it for the P45 - maybe even trivial.
I just don't understand why it isn't an option at the very least, since there are 39MP to play with, it still gives you a huge file even at 1/4 the size - I mean you would expected it to be even cleaner than the much vaulted iso 800 on the A75.
I dunno I just think Phase are missing a trick here, maybe they should be lobbied so they know that most of use do NOT want a deliberately disabled camera ?
Michael have you seen Uwe articel on the Digital outback covering P45 conversions with other RAW developers other than C1 Pro ? Basically Raw shooter seems to bring out apreichably more detail from the RAW file. I just wondered wether you had seen/tried this - as any differnece is going to be even more evident with your "Ultimate" high res Linhoff system ? It seems credible that Phase might have "concentrated on smooth skin tones rather than crisp leafs in a landscape shot" as may they may view this as thie main market (Wedding/fashion shooters) ?
Ed
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The article on Uwe's site came about as a results of work that Charlie Cramer, Bill Atkinson and I did with our P45s after the Redwoods shoot which I documented here a month or so ago.
There has been much behind the scenes discussion and work on the part of Phase One. The new 3.7.4 release of Capture One addresses this problem, which was in fact quite real.
In brief, the image processing algorythms in C1 were mistaking high frequency detail in P45 captures for noise, and were smearing them to try and help reduce them. No Phase back previously had resolution at this level, and so earlier generation software triped over it.
In 3.7.4 moving the Noise Suppression slider completely to the left (low) now essentiially solves the problem. Very fast action on the part of Phase One.
Uwe might wish to add an update to the article on his site.
As for the missing ISO 800 on the P45, I wouldn't be surprised to see it added in a future firmware release.
Michael
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>Uwe might wish to add an update to the article on his site.
I talked about this with Charlie. He may add a note.
But:
1. I sent the image to P1
2. They did not send me any note about the fix
Uwe
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2. They did not send me any note about the fix
Uwe,
I would imagine that making a big deal about a fix would,by extension,admit to a problem
and,given the way things are instantantly amplified (good or bad) on the web, it likely is
better business these days to fly under the radar and just quietly get it done.
I just ran a couple of P45 files through 3.7.4 and would concur,on a quick look,that the
improvements are noticeable and the difference in fine detail retention between C1 and
RawDeveloper is now very subtle.
RD's Hybrid sharpening still pretty impressive for those who wish to apply some sharpening
at the conversion stage.
Mark
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> it likely is
better business these days to fly under the radar and just quietly get it done.
But then they also hopefully don't expect an imediate correction :-)
We are working on one.
Uwe
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Hello,
The fix from Phase is not yet complete, although I agree that 3.74 is a step in the right direction. 3.74 makes a dramatic difference with the P 25 files as well (this problem was not isolated to the P45). If you are a P 25 user, you may wish to go back and reprocess some of your old RAW files, and see the improvement.
After the final release of 3.74 I had posted the following over on the Phase Forum, :
"A suggestion for the online suggestion box.
A true "noise reduction off" feature for the P backs in C1 would be greatly appreciated. I absolutely love the functionality side of C1, but my recent tests using Raw Developer has me wondering if Phase could not give us the same functionality within our "home program".
Side by side, IMO, the fine detail achieved by Raw Developer is decidedly superior. On all other levels C1 has the edge. Assuming this is indeed the result of aggressive noise reduction (as has been proposed elsewhere), can we expect a noise reduction off feature?
It would be greatly appreciated by us PC users who would rather not alternate platforms."
Ulf from Phase responded:
"We are working on something at the moment.
Just wanted to say this so you do not think we ignore your input."
I join Michael in commending Phase in listening to its users and responding with timely solutions.
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Randall,
I am on the Window system, I went to the Phase One Road Show and C1 on the Mac system is a very different and much better system. You can do much more on the Mac system.
They say C1 version 4, the two system will be closier together. I got a used Mac G5 just because of the big difference in C1 3.7.4
I try getting a Leaf Aptus 75, but finally up-grade to P45 because of the cost factor.
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Randall does this apply to <ac based processing or just PC?
So the tip is to set noise reduction to 0?
Thanks,
Ric
Hello,
The fix from Phase is not yet complete, although I agree that 3.74 is a step in the right direction. 3.74 makes a dramatic difference with the P 25 files as well (this problem was not isolated to the P45). If you are a P 25 user, you may wish to go back and reprocess some of your old RAW files, and see the improvement.
After the final release of 3.74 I had posted the following over on the Phase Forum, :
"A suggestion for the online suggestion box.
A true "noise reduction off" feature for the P backs in C1 would be greatly appreciated. I absolutely love the functionality side of C1, but my recent tests using Raw Developer has me wondering if Phase could not give us the same functionality within our "home program".
Side by side, IMO, the fine detail achieved by Raw Developer is decidedly superior. On all other levels C1 has the edge. Assuming this is indeed the result of aggressive noise reduction (as has been proposed elsewhere), can we expect a noise reduction off feature?
It would be greatly appreciated by us PC users who would rather not alternate platforms."
Ulf from Phase responded:
"We are working on something at the moment.
Just wanted to say this so you do not think we ignore your input."
I join Michael in commending Phase in listening to its users and responding with timely solutions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=64410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Randall does this apply to <ac based processing or just PC?
I have only tested on PC, but I believe it has been changed for mac as well.
So the tip is to set noise reduction to 0?
Yes. Phase has lowered the amount of noise reduction applied when the sliders are at zero, which results in improved detail. I had requested that they go even further, and give us essentially a true zero, or noise reduction off functionality. It sounds like that will be coming.
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We posted now an update by Charles Cramer:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_28/essay.html (http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_28/essay.html)
Case closed :-)
Uwe
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Hey Randall,
Thanks for the reply.
What should banding supression be set at? and the Color Noise Supressions tab should it be set at default?
Also, with sharpening what has been your experience in the setting?
Thanks,
R
I have only tested on PC, but I believe it has been changed for mac as well.
Yes. Phase has lowered the amount of noise reduction applied when the sliders are at zero, which results in improved detail. I had requested that they go even further, and give us essentially a true zero, or noise reduction off functionality. It sounds like that will be coming.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=64439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sorry to be posting this in the medium format section, since I don't own a back and am using C1 LE at the moment, but I highly recommend going into File/Preferences/Processing Settings/ and checking the box that states "Use pre 3.7 Standard Color Noise Suppression."
I think this color noise suppression is MUCH better than the new suppression that you control with the slider. Therefore, with this option checked, the slider doesn't affect any color noise suppression settings. Just keep that box checked, and you'll get nice, fine grained noise, no color noise, and no weird artifacts in shadows from the suppression which I experienced using the slider, instead of pre 3.7 suppression. Just my preference.
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Hey Randall,
Thanks for the reply.
What should banding supression be set at? and the Color Noise Supressions tab should it be set at default?
Also, with sharpening what has been your experience in the setting?
Thanks,
R
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=64526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I leave the noise suppression sliders at full left, banding suppression at full left, pattern noise suppression unticked. In preferences, I disable sharpening on output (If you wish, you can leave sharpening at 34/3 so you can work with a lightly sharpened file while in RAW, and still output an unsharpened file).
Randall