Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: marc.s on April 04, 2006, 01:56:29 pm
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Hi.
My old CRT monitor is biting the dust (there are light shades next to dark contrasts like text - degaussing doesn't help) and I really need to replace it. I've been very happy with it (a 17" Sony Multiscan 200 PS) and spent a long time finding the right one at the time.
Everything seems a lot more confusing with LCD screens, at least within my limited budget. Ideally I would like a 20" widescreen, but if it's not available with decent image quality within my budget I'm willing to settle for a 19" regular monitor for now.
I was rather drooling at the Dell 2005fpw because I could stretch my budget to it, but between apparently a lot of problem with the backlight (have they been solved yet?) and too bright for photo work(?), I'm not as keen. The corresponding Apple Cinema 20" wide is rather expensive for me (if it's really great and can last me many years it would be worth it), and I've read that it's not fully adjustable with Windows XP (is this correct?). Dell has a 2007fpw model coming but since it's not out yet I have no idea whether it's better than the 2005fpw (nor what it will cost).
Are there any widescreen 20 inch monitors out there like the Dell and Apple Cinema with decent image quality at similar prices? I would really like a widescreen since it would be a great help in my photo and graphics work.
If not, what good monitors are there in the 19" regular format segment? I understand NEC and LaCie are supposed to make good ones, but they have a lot of models, as do the other brands. Image quality does not seem to be much of a parameter in monitor reviews these days, so most of what I see recommended are all-round or games monitors. I don't need to watch films on it (although it would be nice), so my main concern is image quality and cost. Something that would roughly be like my old Sony CRT would be great.
I haven't used any hardware profilers so far, have actually been able to get satisfactory results through software and eyeballing my own profiles and I have my prints made at a lab. But if necessary I would probably get a Spyder 2 or similar to calibrate my new monitor.
It doesn't make all that much sense stating a budget since I don't live in America and the models available here often trade at different prices relative to each other, but the Dell and Apple models I mentioned should be able to indicate it roughly..
Any help and recommendations would be greatly appreciated as I'm beginning to get rather frustrated trying to find something I can afford.
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Check out the following thread... lots of posts there.
LCD Monitor Recommendations (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613)
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I'm about to set up an Apple 20" with a PC, I've researched video cards, almost all of the Nvidia GeForce support it as well as dual monitor setups, there is a freeware driver for the ACD called WinACD the post I made below has the link.
From all I've heard about the 2005fpw it is tricky to get the lighting levels correct, I couldn't be bothered with 'tricky' so I bought a 2nd hand one less than a year old in perfect condition for the same price that the Dell would cost new and I don't regret it.
Get some calibration device it's so worth it, you will kick yourself while you have one that you managed without it for so long. Worst case borrow on every now and again to profile your screen, it would be better than nothing. Again 2nd hand might be an option, I'm sure ebay has quite a selection.
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Check out the following thread... lots of posts there.
LCD Monitor Recommendations (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613)
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Thanks - I did read through that thread (until it just became really technical), but there weren't many actual recommendations, and that's what I really need. By photographers, that is, not the kind I can get in any computer forum.
One monitor was recommended, the NEC 1980SXI - but it costs over US $1500 here, so it's way out of my budget.
I can stretch to the Apple if it's well worth it and will last for years, but I've seen mixed comments and would really like to eat proper food the coming months, so I would like to know if there are better or other options. I also read here that the Dell is actually a better monitor than the Apple once the brightness has dropped off with use.. confusing.
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I'm about to set up an Apple 20" with a PC, I've researched video cards, almost all of the Nvidia GeForce support it as well as dual monitor setups, there is a freeware driver for the ACD called WinACD the post I made below has the link.
From all I've heard about the 2005fpw it is tricky to get the lighting levels correct, I couldn't be bothered with 'tricky' so I bought a 2nd hand one less than a year old in perfect condition for the same price that the Dell would cost new and I don't regret it.
Get some calibration device it's so worth it, you will kick yourself while you have one that you managed without it for so long. Worst case borrow on every now and again to profile your screen, it would be better than nothing. Again 2nd hand might be an option, I'm sure ebay has quite a selection.
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I'll be very interested in hearing how the Apple fares on the pc - are you using WinXP? I have a Geforce 5600 which should be able to support it (if not I'm really going to get loopy).
Unfortunately I can't get hold of any calibration devices here, I'll have to order from abroad.. and with my already limited budget it's not so much fun. Ebay might work, I'm just leery of getting some broken thing or nothing at all - I'll have no way of getting my money back.
The prints I get with my old monitor are hardly ever off, but maybe I was just lucky eyeballing it.
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Where are you based?
maybe get a friend with experience of ebay to get one for you, ebay can be a minefield but if you have the map and are savvy then it shouldn't be a problem, especially for rather niche items like a calbiration device.
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I'm in Denmark.. I'll take a look at Ebay just to see what's around. Have any decent calibration devices to recommend, the EyeOne maybe?
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Funny, I've been spending the last hour trying to find a decent review (i.e. by a photographer not a computer mag!) as to which and what, etc.
I'm using a Spyder 1 which has been fine for my CRT but I could do with something better for the new display, I assume that correctly calibrating a decent LCD is a lot more complicated than a CRT.
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Funny, I've been spending the last hour trying to find a decent review (i.e. by a photographer not a computer mag!) as to which and what, etc.
I'm using a Spyder 1 which has been fine for my CRT but I could do with something better for the new display, I assume that correctly calibrating a decent LCD is a lot more complicated than a CRT.
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Try this:
[a href=\"http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm]http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor...ation_tools.htm[/url]
A bit dated, but good advice.
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thanks, very eye opening, oh and potentially seriously wallet opening too!
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Monitor calibration/profiling tools review:
http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc026a.htm (http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc026a.htm)
Monitor Info:
http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html (http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html)
You may have to register but it's free and the site has some really good info, including product comparisons.
I just hope my LaCie CRT lasts long enough for good LCD prics to drop. The prices are shocking.
Hope that's useful.
Cheers!
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Monitor Info:
http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html (http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html)
Augh.
That site says I can't afford a decent LCD and should just buy one of the CRTs on their list. The only CRT they recommend e that is available here is too expensive for me as a stop gap monitor.
Sigh..
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I wouldn't worry too much about smartshooter, they are perfectionists to the point of impracticality for the real world, their articles on flash and exposure, together with their rebuttal of RAW (who needs it when you are shooting to a 1/10 of a stop, etc) haven't impressed me as to the real world applications of most of it.
There are a lot of serious photographers using the Apple display and being very happy with it.
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This is a tough time to buy a display. I would either spend huge bucks for something like the NEC LED Wide Gamut or go real cheap and wait for the technology to improve. CCFL LCDs are going to go the way of CRTs in a year or three when some of the killer new technologies (OLED, SED) hit the streets. We'll be laughing (or crying) at those super expensive LCDs using Fluorescents.
As for http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html (http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html), I and others have said on the PDN forum it's a cesspool of misinformation about color management. Best to ignore most if not all they have to say (in the past, this is the site that recommended you load your display profile as a working space and now tell us no output device has a wider gamut-contains more colors- than sRGB). Danger Will Robinson.
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This is a tough time to buy a display. I would either spend huge bucks for something like the NEC LED Wide Gamut or go real cheap and wait for the technology to improve. CCFL LCDs are going to go the way of CRTs in a year or three when some of the killer new technologies (OLED, SED) hit the streets. We'll be laughing (or crying) at those super expensive LCDs using Fluorescents.
As for http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html (http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc041.html), I and others have said on the PDN forum it's a cesspool of misinformation about color management. Best to ignore most if not all they have to say (in the past, this is the site that recommended you load your display profile as a working space and now tell us no output device has a wider gamut-contains more colors- than sRGB). Danger Will Robinson.
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I haven't seen the shootsmarter website before now, nor do I know what the PDN forum is, so I'm really out of that loop. I really dislike struggling with this kind of stuff, I just want to shoot and work my images, not worry about technical issues that don't mean squat compared to the enormous room there is for improvement in my photography anyway (and always will be). I shoot mostly action and street photography - there's no neat studio setup or time to white balance let alone check exposure accuracy. It's a flowing, moving, living process that is not bound by technical gear. This is also why I'm strongly dependent upon RAW (if I was in the film age I'd have to shoot a forgiving negative). This doesn't mean I don't want quality equipment, it just means that my main focus is on getting the image, and getting it with equipment that allow for great prints. I'd rather spend 2000 USD on glass than a monitor.
If the Apple Cinema 20" is a decent monitor that provides similar output to my old Sony Multiscan 200PS (which cost a bit more back then than the Apple does now) and there's no cheaper alternative with the same image quality then I guess I'll have to go for that. It would just seem logical that since Dell use the same panel in the 2005fpw that other manufacturers use it too and one of them is as good as the Apple.
I cannot afford to go for the hyper expensive, and I don't want to buy a piece of junk that I can't edit my images on while I wait for the alway elusive next super duper model. Unless someone has a recommendation for a fairly inexpensive 19" monitor with good image quality..
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I wonder how much 2nd hand Sony Artisans go for these days, that was my other option vs the ACD, it comes with its own calibration device, but the 30kg weight put me off!
I would love to wait as you would, but I can't I'm a working pro wedding photographer and need a useable screen. The apple for me, albeit 2nd hand was relatively cheap (£390) especially considering it's far more new, and I have little doubt that it will keep me happy for the next 2-3 years. Lets face it, even when the new technologies come out, they ain't going to be cheap for a further two years and I need something to fill the 5 year gap as my Compaq 17" CRT is no longer accepting calibration properly and I don't see that any modern CRT would be worth the bother compared to the ACD.
What I'm really looking forward to is building a AMD 64 dual chip 3800+ with 2 gig ram tomorrow, plugging in the ACD and the CRT as a 2nd monitor, and being able to do some serious Bridge/PS batching work (a serious need when working 700+ images from RAW to processed files) simultaneously as opposed to being limited to one or the other at present due to speed constraints on my p4 1.6 eventhough it also has 2 gig ram. Can't wait.
I bought my first 'serious' computer, a pentium 200MMX for the same amount that this new rig, including the ACD cost me now. How times have changed!
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I wonder how much 2nd hand Sony Artisans go for these days, that was my other option vs the ACD, it comes with its own calibration device, but the 30kg weight put me off!
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Good luck finding one. If you do, go for it. In fact, I have a brand new unit in the box as a spare. My original is hanging in there but if it takes 2-3 years for the good stuff to arrive, I'm set.
Artisan's do sometimes show up on eBay.
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I'm still trying to look around for alternatives to the Apple (which seems to be a display people consider 'just about acceptable').
Here's one that was recommended on another forum: NEC LCD2070NX - http://www.vnunet.com/personal-computer-wo...3/nec-lcd2070nx (http://www.vnunet.com/personal-computer-world/hardware/2142163/nec-lcd2070nx)
It's not widescreen which I would like, but the price is ok and it is 20". It's my understanding that the Apple can't tilt to portrait mode - if that's true it makes it less usefull anyway (the Dell can).
Anyone have any knowledge of that NEC model? Unfortunately no shops near here stock these kinds of displays to see what they look like, so I have to mail order (although I can return it).
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I don't think that 'just about acceptable' is true for the majority of users though DigitalDog (sorry I don't know your name) would be a lot better able to back me up on this being as I understand one of the big PS people and therefore knows what he is talking about as opposed to most of the people on forums who only wish they did!
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I don't think that 'just about acceptable' is true for the majority of users though DigitalDog (sorry I don't know your name) would be a lot better able to back me up on this being as I understand one of the big PS people and therefore knows what he is talking about as opposed to most of the people on forums who only wish they did!
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Oh, I'm just going by what I see photographers write in forums and reviews.. it seems to just make the cut, but not in the league of other (more expensive) NECs and LaCies..
Personally I don't have a clue as should hopefully be evident by now
I'm really interested in what people think of the NEC I mentioned in the above post, how it stacks up against the Apple, and whether there are other similar ones that are better.
It was so much easier to pick a CRT, this is like fumbling in the dark..
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It depends on how high tech you need, if your regular CRT was good enough then in all likely hood the ACD will be fine, if you needed the artisan as a minimum for your work in the CRT days then you might need something far more expensive.
I think the photographers who are saying that the ACD is barely enough are working at a level that you will probably never ever need, especially coming from a regular uncalibrated CRT.
There are those who need the ultimate colour solutions in a monitor, those shooting for catalogues, for adverts, etc who need perfect representation. For me my CRT calibrated with the original Spyder was giving me (before it started dying) colour within 96% or better accuracy to the prints (some colours were slightly different, not that there was a colour cast) I was getting back from the lab, printed on a frontier and I would not be suprised at all if another 3% of that inaccuracy was due to profile mismatches on their side and/or chemistry/paper issues or maybe just the fact that you will never get a print to be 100% like on screen. I expect better from this new screen with the spyder 2 and any more differences will not be worth the extra thousands of pounds, not for my work, not for my prices and not to the level of accuracy that the vast majority of photographers actually need.
Remember that everyone who writes their opinion has an agenda, the opinion of a large catalogue house where colours of clothes have to be perfect is just not relevant to you (I assume), just as you didn't make sure to buy your film all from the same batch and date code, process in only one lab on a monday of the full moon, etc, etc to ensure the best colour consistency. Yes his opinion is valid - for him!
Maybe someone can back me up here but unless you have extremely exacting standards the ACR calibrated properly should be more than enough for you.
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It's hard to tell since I simply have no idea what the LCDs are capable of compared to the CRTs. When I chose my CRT I did so after reading a bunch of reviews and perhaps looking at 15-20 different displays in person (some of them twice as expensive as the one I chose, but no better in my opinion).
With the LCDs it seems everyone says it's hard to get similar quality as from the CRTs unless you pay through the nose, and they simply aren't displayed here so I can't see what they're like. I would not be happy getting something worse than my current monitor (I know what cheap CRTs are like, they're no good at all for photo editing).
I love quality, but I prioritize quality glass in my budget over a lot of other stuff. I also spend a ton of time editing images, but they're mostly photojournalism style (both for clients and fine art); and I never shoot colour critical catalogue work for agencies. My work is colour critical alright, but through my own subjective criteria, not through the demand of an agency.
If the Apple Cinema display doesn't swivel to a portrait mode it's a bit of a bummer with all the portrait mode shots I do.
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How often did you turn your CRT on its side?
Seriously, the 20" is no smaller vertically than my present screen so I didn't even think of letting it bother me. I very very rarely view my pictures that large anyway, I process for print not computer viewing so it's never been an issue for me.
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How often did you turn your CRT on its side?
Why, I do that every time I view a portrait picture, don't you??
I view pictures on the computer all the time, and it always bothers me how small portraits are, it's hard to see them properly. I want big, big, big when I'm making decisions (I like to step back to view, and it's hard if it's the size of a stamp).
I'm warming up to that NEC 2070NX, but it's extremely hard to find any serious review of it so I'm still hoping someone here might have used it. Another thing is that it's 1600x1200 which may make text too small on a 20". I'm used to 1024x768 on my 17" and not sure smaller text than that would be good. Changing the font size in Windows seems to bring mixed results in applications with each one having its own fonts to use.
Oh yeah, and that one doesn't pivot either. Of course, the much-criticized Dell pivots, but that's no use if all my prints are coming out a stop too dark because the display is blinding me.
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You could get a studio sized sheet of ND filter Gel....
I'm using 1024x768 on my 17" at present and have the windows display size set to the large size, 120DPI, (display/settings/advanced/general) don't know how people can stand having their screen size set to 90dpi on huge screens, it was a pain and a half when I made my website, trying to accomodate all screen sizes, I ended up making it graphics heavy with all the menu's and titles graphics at a minimum filesize using 'save for web'. It makes it more uniform at least and still far faster than using flash.
I've just sat here for a couple of seconds wondering why vertical pictures don't bother me on my screen. Took me a while to realise that I rarely do anything in vertical. Not that I don't shoot in vertical, I do a lot of vertical shooting, but I have them set not to rotate in camera for a larger view on screen (especially as I have it permenantly in 'info' mode) and because the actions I use when batching include resizing and often cropping (for 7X5" proofs) and having seperate batching for vertical/horizontal would be a pain in the neck, I've long ago gotten used to doing all the editing in horizontal. My wife used to get a sore neck trying to see the photos but I'm so used to it I hardly ever rotate to work in the correct orientation.
This is a quote from Karl Lang who designed the Artisan, from another thread here re his advice on LCD displays.
Price performance wise the great bargain is the NEC 1980SXI BK the
price/vs colorimetric performance of this display can't be beat. The
2180ux Is a great display at a reasonable but high end price.
In the mid-high wide screen I like the Apple and the SONY. Reject the
display if uniformity is bad and make sure whomever you buy it from
will exchange it.
The Eizo 210 is great if you can justify the current cost. Give it two
years and most high-end displays should perform at this level. 220 is a
great display but suffers from all the downfalls of any wide gamut
display.
There is no reason to buy the La Cie 321 it's just an NEC with their
label on it and an extra $400.
No doubt you've seen it already, I think someone already linked to the thread early on here, but it does mention a NEC...
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I'm not sure I follow regarding the gel..?
As for text size, the problem is just that not everything scales up properly so a few things will be out of whack, like some websites and some programs that insist on specific fonts and sizes (or use graphics). The standard 96 dpi setting works for me with the same res and monitor size, but I'll try to check some stores to see how things look in terms of size (much easier than getting to see good displays).
I did see Karl Lang's recommendation, but the 1980SXI is a big chunk more expensive than the 1980FXI here, I would not feel comfortable stretching that far. I haven't seen any real mention of other NEC displays..
Oh, and I have no idea how you can edit pictures that are turned sideways, but we probably have very different workflows. I spend a lot of time considering composition (thus the need to move away from the monitor), and can labour over a single image for quite a while. Sideways? I guess I would have to do it lying down with the monitor on the floor..
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Nope, just try editing a wedding worth of photos in a couple of hours! It's not landscape stuff that can take hours per photo, I can tweak 200 files from a wedding in 45 mins using ACR. You get used to not bothering to rotate, the composition has been taken care of in camera, tweaking brighness, shadows and curves doesn't need the photo to be the right way up per se. Culling the files down to the required set of proofs is harder when they are all horizontal, sometimes though rarely I will rotate when having difficulty choosing between two similar photos, but most of the time I don't have a problem.
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I have an EIZO Coloredge CG21. I couldn't ask for a better monitor unless it was the new wide screen CG220.
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I spend a lot of time considering composition (thus the need to move away from the monitor), and can labour over a single image for quite a while.
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By moving away from the monitor what are you doing except making the image 'smaller'?
Why not just make it smaller?
(Well, I suppose you'd miss out on the exercise....)
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By moving away from the monitor what are you doing except making the image 'smaller'?
Why not just make it smaller?
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I'm not sure why exactly it works, it just does. I also change the size on screen constantly for the same reason, but the best way for me to determine composition is from further away provided the picture is large enough to see. I suppose the answer is the same as to why would you want to watch a film on a big screen from far away rather than on a small screen close up? If the angle of view is identical, what's the point? Well, it clearly makes a difference. Maybe it's partly a resolution factor, partly a stereoscopic factor.
The Eizo CG21 is out of my league. Right now I'm looking at the NEC 2170NX; same price as the Apple 20" and 21" 1600x1200.
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Just got my apple and sorted it out, it's smaller than I imagined but looks just fine next to my 17" compaq which is now my 2nd screen, looks pretty fuzzy in comparison!
Even after calibration and the brightness on the lowest setting the screen is too bright for me, I lowered it to 90% using the video card setting just to get it right according to my print test target. I would be horrified to imagine what the dell would be like if, for me, even the apple is too bright.
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TFTs are typically set to 110-120 candela while CRTs are usually running at 85-95 if they are working well (not too old). So it's tricky to have a CRT next to a TFT the way TFTs are normally run..
That was just a tidbit of information I've gathered in my own search over the last few days, I guarantee none of the content to be correct
How do you like the Apple otherwise? Are the gradients smooth or is there visible banding?
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If I could get this bloody Spyder 2 software to install (keeps crashing) then I would be able to calibrate and tell you!
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I just saw the Apple 20" today in a store demo, it was smaller than I thought as well! It's the diagonal of widescreen that plays its trickery. Photos looked very nice, colours looked natural..
Maybe there's an update to the Spyder software you can use?
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I did, downloaded it and it worked fine.
Firstly, people seem to say that you should calibrate for 'native', after trying it with this display I heartily disagree, 6500 was far more accurate for me.
Other than that I'm struggling with dimming the brightness while keeping control of the contrast. The blacks still seem too open and the contrast is too high. If anyone can help me calibrate and keep the brightness down without getting funky blacks and contrast then I would be most appreciative.
It's a great screen and I'm loving the widescreen, but I need to get the brighness/contrast/colour right, after all that is what it's for.
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Firstly, people seem to say that you should calibrate for 'native', after trying it with this display I heartily disagree, 6500 was far more accurate for me.
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First if it's an LCD, the native white point should be pretty close to 6500K.
How are you viewing the differences? You want to be doing something like this (assuming you're on a Mac):
Load first profile (say built using Native) in the control panel. You'll see LUT update.
Switch to Photoshop with image open. As soon as you do, you'll see it update the preview. It's using the profile you just "loaded"
Load the 2nd profile (6500K). IGNORE LUT udpate and go into Photoshop and examine.
Both previews in Photoshop should look virtually identical because PS is using the profile and compensating based on how it's built. The minor difference you may see is banding on smooth gradients using 6500K versus Native. And you'll have to ASSIGN those profiles to the test gradient.
If Native is really really close to 6500K, you may not see any difference at all. But one is doing nothing to the graphic card and the other might be. The more adjustment on the graphic card, the more banding you'll likely to see.
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The difference is pretty noticeable with native being a good 500-1000K cooler to my eyes. I'm using a recent wedding I shot for reference, i know what the prints looked like, i know what they looked like on the CRT, on the LCD the blacks are far too open, over contrasty and have colour shifts. The facial tones are OK-ish but the blacks are unnacceptable. Would it be worth trying to calibrate at gamma 1.8 instead of 2.2?
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Would it be worth trying to calibrate at gamma 1.8 instead of 2.2?
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Not really. IF the calibration and profile are "accurate" using either would produce roughly the same previews in Photoshop. The main difference would be the degree of correction occurring at the graphic card. We want to do as little as possible.
White Point will look different even with Display Using Monitor Compensation in an ICC aware application. But the difference between Native and 6500 shouldn't be much. Do you have a D65 option to try?
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I'm trying everything at present just to try and get accurate blacks!
I'm going to try the native again, see what happens.
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Yikes, not liking the sound of all this trouble, and I haven't even bought one yet.
Is it possible that the Spyder 2 doesn't work well with the Apple?
Also, how bright is your display since you're trying to dim it? If you're only dimming it to match the CRT, but the accuracy goes down the drain with too dim light, perhaps that's where the problem lies? Have you measured the brightness?
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Pom or anyone else - do you have some recommendations for decent online stores in the UK I can order a colour calibrator from?
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amazon might not be a bad idea, www.warehouseexpress.co.uk otherwise for good prices. if you're in Europe then Germany might be a cheaper option, worth looking into.
I've gone back to the original calibration I made with the spyder at native and it seems to be the best for the blacks all round though the colour is slightly cold, I still have tweaking to be done. I can't measure the brightness, it could well be that the darkening of the screen through the video card software post calibration is the culprit, that said I need my screen to give me accurate results at print brightness, how I've always had my CRT set up with great results.
Does anyone know whether any of the other calibration options give better control over software darkening to 'x' level of brightness, i.e. to taste, but with accurate colour? I've lowered my screen to 90% according to the vid card software with the hardware lowered as far as possible. At present I have to calibrate with everything set to default and darken afterwards.
The problem is that there are no 'try before you buy' options with calibration devices. I could do with one that gives me the above option, i.e. cailbrates according to a user specified brightness level. Can anyone help (especially you Andrew, you're the authority on this are you not?), should I buy a software solution (color-something I think it's called) or look for a different software/hardware solution?
Thanks
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Of course this is starting to get rather expensive!
I've downloaded the demo of color eyes display (software) which was reviewed here, I'll see how it goes assuming it works with the spyder 2.
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Hm, it appears to be cheaper to buy from the US and have it shipped.. I'm leaning towards the Eye-One 2 myself.
It's getting expensive for me as well
You could try asking in the Rob Galbraith forum if you don't get help here with your calibration issues..
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Well it doesn't work with the spyder, great.
I wish you could try them out and find out what is the best one, it's not a cheap expense to find out it doesn't do what I need.
Do you not have to pay import from the US?
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Sorry to hear you still have problems There must be plenty other with the Spyder2 and Apple display though, so you should be able to find info somewhere..
Do you not have to pay import from the US?
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Yeah, but some companies are nice to mark down the price written on the package so it's not snatched by customs
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Cross posting from another thread as I think it is useful.
I recently came across this UK retailer with useful info on LCD monitors and colour accuracy versus price trade offs: http://shop.colourconfidence.com/section.php?xSec=155 (http://shop.colourconfidence.com/section.php?xSec=155)
They also sell calibrators etc. In fact I think I actually bought my own Spyder from them a few years back.
Julian
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Thanks for the link Julian, I might buy from them.
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interesting, keep in mind us brits that the prices are before vat!
I am now getting almost perfect color, contrast and brightness from my ACD and am happy with it. It took an evening of making custom curves in the video driver for the luminosity but it was worth it. Although the desktop looks a bit weird, the photos are a perfect match from the LCD to the calibrated CRT sitting next to it. Thank you Monaco! I've also found just how much I have to adjust the screen brightness of the CRT to match ambient in comparison to the LCD which has needed no tweaks at all. Admittedly this is is a room going from totally dark to merely dimly lit, but the CRT still needs adjusting where the LCD doesn't.
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Good to hear everything is working now. The whole custom curve fit sounds messy though, like it defies the whole point of a hardware calibrator. So are you happy with the display? Also, what brightness did you end up using in cd/m2?
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G-d knows!
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This is a tough time to buy a display. I would either spend huge bucks for something like the NEC LED Wide Gamut or go real cheap and wait for the technology to improve. CCFL LCDs are going to go the way of CRTs in a year or three when some of the killer new technologies (OLED, SED) hit the streets. We'll be laughing (or crying) at those super expensive LCDs using Fluorescents.
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Andrew, this worries me - just a bit. My trusty CRT is starting to snap at me, which makes me think one day it will just die. So I've been casting about reading the usual stuff from the usual people and places, and so far the optimal combination of money and technology for me looks like a LaCie 321G or its NEC match. Are you saying this will be obsolete within the next 12~36 months? Could you describe a bit what you know about the improvements coming down the road? There are used CRTs identical to mine available on eBay I could live with if it is really worth the wait when the time comes.
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After what I went through to get a similar picture from my ACD and considering the cost of these LCD's, if you are happy with your CRT, you can probably buy another 10 of them for the price of a new LCD and with less hassle. Might well be worth the wait.
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Pom, yes, I may well wait if I can without sacrificing workflow till then. Did you check-out the LaCie 321G before you bought the ACD? I'm wondering whether the kind of trouble you've experienced is generic to LCDs (i.e. they're all trouble regardless of make or price) or brand-related.
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It appears he had two kinds of trouble - one being a dodgy profiler, and the other being the need to adjust curves for the video drivers. The latter is the bit that worries me - I simply don't understand the point of using a hardware profiler if you have to adjust curves manually afterwards anyway.
And to add insult to injury I've run into issues with the NEC I'm looking to buy..
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marc.s I agree with you that in principle it should not be necessary to introduce curve adjustments to a properly calibrated and profiled system - but hey - if it solved pom's problem, so be it and what works works. However, it is primary evidence of technical issues. Which raises the subject of your NEC. I'm interested, because there is a model of the NEC which is supposed to be the Father of the LaCie 321G. Is this the model you are having trouble with? Could you please explain what the problems are?
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marc.s I agree with you that in principle it should not be necessary to introduce curve adjustments to a properly calibrated and profiled system - but hey - if it solved pom's problem, so be it and what works works. However, it is primary evidence of technical issues. Which raises the subject of your NEC. I'm interested, because there is a model of the NEC which is supposed to be the Father of the LaCie 321G. Is this the model you are having trouble with? Could you please explain what the problems are?
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Oh, it's great that pom got it to work! I just really dislike this whole colour management business and the more complicated it gets the worse (for me at least).
I think the LaCie 321 is the same as the NEC 2180ux, but I haven't checked.
The NEC series has just been upgraded from the 80s to the 90s, so now it's 1990, 2090, 2190 for the respective sizes.
My problem is that I've learnt from basICCare (who are behind basICColor) that they no longer support hardware profiling of the NEC monitors and further - worse - that NEC does not support hardware profiling of these monitors unless they are bought as part of the SpectraView package. Even though the monitors are the same, they change the firmware in the SpectraView versions to allow for hardware profiling (with their own software). Incidentally, the software that is used with Spectraview is an OEM version of basICColor, only with NEC drivers.
I have all that information from basICCare people because NEC has sent me from person to person without providing me with any useful info.
The 90-series SpectraView versions are not available, and the older Spectraview series is way overpriced over here.
I'm still looking at getting the 2090uxi and just use regular calibration (probably Monaco Optix Pro, maybe I'll try basICColor software). Unless I find some better monitor solution anyway.
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marc.s - thank you ever so much for that information. It puts NEC monitors OFF THE TABLE for me. I would not buy a product that locks-in calibration and profiling options to what may well be second-best and expensive solutions. Whatever I buy needs to support open-sourced equipment and software for colour management. I am quite sure the LaCie 321G allows this, because I know that ColorEyes Display and the Monaco OptixXR/DPT94 colorimeter can be used with this monitor. To the best of my knowledge this combination of hardware and software has been very well received in professional circles.
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marc.s - thank you ever so much for that information. It puts NEC monitors OFF THE TABLE for me. I would not buy a product that locks-in calibration and profiling options to what may well be second-best and expensive solutions. Whatever I buy needs to support open-sourced equipment and software for colour management. I am quite sure the LaCie 321G allows this, because I know that ColorEyes Display and the Monaco OptixXR/DPT94 colorimeter can be used with this monitor. To the best of my knowledge this combination of hardware and software has been very well received in professional circles.
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But does ColorEyes support hardware profiling through DDC of the LaCie 321? I haven't checked ColorEyes much because I read that it's a rather complicated to use.
The thing is, that if the LaCie 321 is the same as the NEC 2180 then ColorEyes will probably support that the same way (but you should of course ask first). And the 2180 is a bit cheaper than the LaCie.
It's really confusing because hardware profiling of the monitor is hard to find information on with the various profiling kits, and then NEC pulling a firmware stunt so only certain models are 'allowed' to be profiled as well only makes it all more complicated.
Btw, the SpectraView versions are just the monitor plus profiling software (basICColor with NEC driver) plus a hood (which costs US $150 separately!). So for people wanting the whole deal who can get a good price it's fine - I would take that. But as far as I can tell they haven't released these SpectraView versions for the 90-series, and even if they had it would be too expensive for me to buy here.
Meanwhile, the basICColor guy told me that regular software profiling of the 2090uxi still gives good results. Here is the bit he told me about that:
Hi Marc,
I know these are not good news. But this is NEC policy.
But if you preset a 2090uxi to the aimed color temperature and the aimed
gamma-value (around 2.4 for L*) than you can reach nearly the same
reproduction quality like a hardware calibrated SpectraView 2090.
There are no mayor difference between the SQUID2 and the Optix XR.
The SQUID2 has a diffusion plate to measure ambient light and the XR not.
But the XR is a bit more precise in measuring dark tints. And the XR is a
bit slower.
With best regards.
Tim
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marc.s, YES - that is one of the key features of ColorEyes Display - profiling through DDC if the monitor and the video card allow it. NO ColorEyes Display is not difficult to use. Not much different from any other calibration software in terms of ease of use, and in fact particularly user-friendly for up-dating the profile. I wouldn't revert to software profiling. The whole idea of buying a state-of-the-art Monaco Colorimeter is to do it properly.
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I just sent ColorEyes an email asking whether they support DDC in the LaCie 321 and the NEC 90-series (non Spectraview).. getting so much conflicting information (I just read elsewhere that the 321 does not support DDC, but that was no official source).
The thing about ColorEyes being difficult to use was from the Dry Creek review: http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor...ation_tools.htm (http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm)
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marc.s - great - let us know what Integrated Color Corp tells you. My understanding is that the issue is the reverse - the question isn't whether the software supports DDC (it does) - the issue is whether the monitor is DDC-capable - anyhow, either way I.C.C. or LaCie themselves will have the answer to that question, which I hope and expect is YES - but let us see what they come back with.
I have been using ColorEyes Display for quite a while; Dry Creek aside, I've worked with it rather easily. The only issue I had was some lack of clarity in the instructions the first time around, but I.C.C. cleared that up pretty quickly and it was smooth sailing thereafter.
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I'll keep you posted on the DDC info. I haven't seen anywhere in Europe to buy ColorEyes, the shop I was looking at buying from doesn't have it - http://shop.colourconfidence.com/index.php (http://shop.colourconfidence.com/index.php)
Chromix in the US sell it, but they were difficult when it came to shipping, so I'd prefer buying this in Europe. Between finding a place to get a good display for a reasonable amount to getting the right profiler for a reasonable amount this is the most complicated shopping I've ever done! I've corresponded with a dozen companies and shops so far..
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I just sent LaCie a note regarding the 321 for good measure, although I can't afford that monitor myself..
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marc.s, B&H Photo-Video (New York City) ship world-wide and they carry a full range of LaCie and NEC monitors. I live in Canada, buy from them frequently and they have been totally reliable. (www.bhphotovideo.com). They also sell the Monaco Optix XR and its software. Better is to buy the ColorEyes Display bundled with Xrite DPT94 (same equipment, better software) - you can order directly from them and they ship to anywhere also. The problem with buying this kind of stuff on-line is that you should be sure about what you want, because returns unrelated to defects could be a pain.
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I'm buying the monitor here (Denmark) - no way I'm buying it without the ability to return it if I'm not happy (which would be the case buying from other countries). But the profiling system I'm probably getting from somewhere else, even though it's taking a risk too as you say. The problem with buying from the US is that it's likely to be held up in customs, and that can sometimes take weeks on top of the shipping time..
Once I have figured everything out I'd like to get all the stuff so I can use it and not wait around forever
I have bought from B&H before, would love to have a shop like that here!
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Reply from the ColorEyes people - good news for the LaCie:
ColorEyes Display supports ddc on the LaCie right now. The issue with
the NEC is whether or not they are willing to provide the sdk for
software support. As is indicated by the recent postings it appears
that they are no longer willing to provide that information to Color
Solutions DK. We have never had access to the data.
Jack
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marc.s - you got exactly the answer from Jack I thought you would get. If I need to replace my monitor soon, which could happen, that information would confirm my decision for LaCie - a few hundred dollars more, but seen over the expected years for using the equipment it doesn't matter.
Yes, I wish we had a B&H in Toronto as well, but I'm sure we both understand the B&H phenominon is pure New York! Their internet operation is huge, but I guess keeping a place that in business still needs the critical mass of a city like NY.
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Yeah, the LaCie sounds like a good choice for you - it's just outside my budget. For some reason there's a huge gap (at least in prices here) between 20" and 21" even though it's the same resolution and everything.
I'm not sure how much of B&H is internet sale, but I would think it's quite a bit. So it should be possible for other countries with access to large markets to do something similar (Germany or England over here for instance, but there's nothing like B&H or Adorama in Europe).
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You are right - it should be possible - but it doesn't happen - that is what I meant by "pure New York". The U.S. got onto the concept of huge scale in retailing that very few other places in the world can rival. It's partly the culture and partly the economic framework.
It's true, the LaCie is a big bite financially. So I'm waiting till I really need to replace what I'm using - a good CRT, but won't last too much longer.
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If you can pick up cheap second hand CRTs like the one you have may I ask why you are considering the LaCie?
Personally I can't get a decent second hand CRT here, and the only one that's still for sale is rather expensive. Since I would also really like a flicker free display and the ability to pivot and really don't have room for a 21" monitor the option is pretty clear for me.. I'm pretty excited about going from this 17" (16" actual view) 1024x768 to 20" 1600x1200! Just need to get the right one first time around. My current monitor dates back to 1998 and I was hoping it would last longer!
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marc, yes, I can buy a used P992 on eBay for anything from 50 dollars up to 400, but it's flying blind - don't really know what will come through the door. Like buying a used car without the certification.
I think we need to simply face the fact that high quality CRT technology is history, and get used to the new world of LCDs and beyond.
Also, I spend alot of time in front of a monitor and numerous people have confirmed over again that the LCDs are much healthier for one's eyesight.
The only reason why I might go for a used CRT as a temporary solution is that we are now hearing there are new technologies on the way that will also make these expensive LCDs obsolete. But I would like to hear more about that from the people who know.
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Karl Lang's post in the other thread mentions 1-3 years before the new tech. I'm not going to wait several years with a subpar display. So much technology is transition anyway, we usually know that when we buy it - like almost everything in digital cameras (at least until recently).
I got another reply from Integrated Color:
Basiccolor had an inside deal with NEC that we did not. They have
never given us any info. NEC, at least in this country has their own
version of calibration software that is not Basiccolor. You know, not
having ddc is not the end of the world. You can make very good
profiles without it. Is it better, yes, but by how much. Hard to say.
If you are calibrating to D50 it will probably matter alot. If you
are calibrating to native or around 6500 it will matter a whole lot
less. I would not be surprised if the have different software
implementations on different monitors. Almost everyone else does so
why not them. We have built in special software for many monitors on
the market because ddc is never just ddc.
Jack
Since I'll be running 6500 I'm probably just settling for this. I still have not received a reply from NEC about other stuff though. They really have rotten pre-sales help.
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marc, unless my present monitor by some miracle keeps chugging along, I wouldn't want to wait three years before improving my monitor either, but one year may be worth it - depending on what is coming, and we (anyhow I) know very little about that. You are right about the technology business - it is a treadmill - an evolving crap-shoot; the only rule is that whatever we buy today will be obsolete tomorrow and tomorrow keeps coming faster and faster.
As for NEC, if their pre-sales support is crummy, just think of what their technical support may be like.
I haven't bought a LaCie monitor yet, but their tech support people here in Toronto have been first-class responding to my questions about various technicalities I have raised with them. This gives me alot of confidence that I would get the support I need if I buy it and something messes-up thereafter. Yes, more expensive, but just looking through all the NEC issues that surfaced in this thread, maybe there are reasons.
That said, you know, this is also an issue of money versus risk, perception and perfectionism. When I really need to get down to a final decision about it, I'll want to see what the monitor displays relative to some test images before I buy. Then comparing brands, how much quality difference, how much risk you will need tech support etc., etc. There must be many people with NEC monitors using their calibration/profiling getting un-interrupted performance and from their perception fully satisfactory results from it. So the chances are the way you are leaning may work out just fine at lower cost. I think it is one of these areas where eyes-on and hands-on pre-purchase research is imporant, but nothing is certain in life, is it?
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I expect nothing from NEC support whatsoever
But in this country we have a mandatory 24 months warranty, so I can send it to the shop for repair if something happens. Further, we have 2 weeks full return after buying online, which will be my testing period since I cannot get to see it anywhere around here.
I do expect it to be good. So far I have only read good things about the NEC 80-series, and incidentally your LaCie 321 is also a NEC 2180 - only you get the DDC!
It's very different from when I bought my last monitor, I looked at loads of them in the shops that I had seen reviews of. But I cannot find any shop that sells these high end displays anymore, it's all mainstream stuff.
I don't mind that tech is constantly progressing either - I think it's wonderful. It's just a matter of finding something you are happy with and then choosing that. That's always what I've done and I don't recall regretting having bought something because it became obsolete later on. Rather, I will research quite a bit before I buy, but then once I have bought it I don't worry about it at all, I just enjoy it. If I bought some expensive tech on impulse and was unhappy with it I would be annoyed though, because I can't just replace it next month.
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My approach too, otherwise it would drive us all crazy.
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Just quoting the reply I got from LaCie if anyone is curious:
"This message was sent from support@lacie.com"
Marc,
Our 321 monitor does provide for hardware calibration through DDC. But
we can make no guarantee that third-party calibration software will
work.
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Thanks marc. Fair enough - they won't vouch for 3rd party software; but other information I've heard here in Toronto indicates that ColorEyes Display works on that monitor. It would be good to get the views of anyone else who has actually done it.
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I'm not sure how much of B&H is internet sale, but I would think it's quite a bit. So it should be possible for other countries with access to large markets to do something similar (Germany or England over here for instance, but there's nothing like B&H or Adorama in Europe).
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It's not quite B&H, but there is an excellent online retailer in the UK who I use for a lot of photographic equipment [a href=\"http://www.warehouseexpress.com/]Warehouse Express[/url]. They have a huge range of equipment, competitive prices (for the UK) and excellent service - you can return items you don't like with no questions asked. They also sell NEC, LaCie and Eizo monitors, colour calibration devices etc. Well worth a look. Obviously there are no customs charges when shipping to anywhere in the EU.
Julian
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Thanks Julian - it seems this site is cheaper though: http://shop.colourconfidence.com/index.php (http://shop.colourconfidence.com/index.php)
I also still have to pay VAT here (so I actually pay double VAT).
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Well, I'm looking for a 19" screen that doesn't break the bank. My options seem to be:
With DDC hardware calbration:
- NEC Spectraview 1980 at £645
- LaCie 319 £623
Without DDC hardware calibration:
- NEC 1990SXi at £445
- Eizo S1910 at £421
With the DCC monitors I will also need to by a Monaco Optix XR at £120, as they are not compatible with my Spyder. I may get one anyway as it seems the Spyder is pretty crummy in comparison.
At the moment I'm leaning towards the NEC 1990Sxi...I'm not sure if the DCC calibration of the Spectraview/319 is worth the cost.
Julian
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You could also check out the NEC 1980Fxi. In what I've read it sounds like a monitor similar to the 1980sxi in quality, but probably without DDC. It was created for the financial sector, but it seems to employ the same kind of hardware as the 1980sxi and at a cheaper price. Worth a look if you can compare them.
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Here is an article from PCMagazine on large LCD monitors (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1951310,00.asp)
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FWIW, it looks like the tryout of ColorEyes i downloaded will do DDC on my 1990sxi. The question now is where to download the manual, since they don't seem to think it could be of use...