Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Black & White => Topic started by: dumainew on October 22, 2015, 03:56:28 pm
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Hi All,
Learning to print in B&W.
Using an Epson R2880 and PSCC.
Starting off with Epson Luster paper.
If I choose Advanced B&W settings, letting printer manage color, would a custom ICC profile be advisable ?
And if I don't have a custom profile how, or should I even bother, to soft proof the image?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
Richard
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No, ABW is it's own black box, no ICC path. You can't soft proof.
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My understanding is that you can build a profile with QTR for soft proofing. Of course, it will only be valid for the settings that you use to print the target.
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DD- Does you mean I can forego any soft proofing ?
Jeff- Does QTR make sense without the hardware to go with it ?
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To build a softproof profile, you will need an i1Pro. QTR comes with tools to let you build ICC profiles. As to whether QTR is a goer without an i1 Pro, I think that many people use it that way. I just couldn't do it.
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DD- Does you mean I can forego any soft proofing ?
Jeff- Does QTR make sense without the hardware to go with it ?
I have had profiles built for ABW for the Epson P800 by Les Walkling in Melbourne. I print through QTR Print Tool. They allow soft proofing (provided you have a profile for any particular tint setting) and are a considerable improvement on the default.
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Check out Eric Chan's ICC profiles for Epson.
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This topic has been discussed many times over the past several years. The only way you can use a custom ABW profile is through Windows; Mac OS will not let you assign a profile in the ABW mode. Eric Chan stopped making ABW profiles about the time that Apple closed off that route for profiling. OTR is pretty easy to work with and you can use either a Color Munki or an i1 to create ABW profiles using either a 21 or 51 B/W patch chart. I use Argyll CMS to create the patch set and read them. You can soft proof using such profiles.
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DD- Does you mean I can forego any soft proofing ?
It does, at least unless you want to go though 3rd party software hoops. Personally I'd just the Advanced B&W for dead nuts neutral prints, or an actual, good quality ICC Profile for sending RGB "toned" (not neutral) B&W which you could soft proof but it probably is mostly unnecessary. KISS.
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This topic has been discussed many times over the past several years. The only way you can use a custom ABW profile is through Windows; Mac OS will not let you assign a profile in the ABW mode. Eric Chan stopped making ABW profiles about the time that Apple closed off that route for profiling. OTR is pretty easy to work with and you can use either a Color Munki or an i1 to create ABW profiles using either a 21 or 51 B/W patch chart. I use Argyll CMS to create the patch set and read them. You can soft proof using such profiles.
In QTR Print Tool in the Colour Management section you select Application Managed, tick the ABW box and then select the custom profile in the box beneath the two. The custom profile can also be used for soft proofing.
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This topic has been discussed many times over the past several years. The only way you can use a custom ABW profile is through Windows; Mac OS will not let you assign a profile in the ABW mode. Eric Chan stopped making ABW profiles about the time that Apple closed off that route for profiling. OTR is pretty easy to work with and you can use either a Color Munki or an i1 to create ABW profiles using either a 21 or 51 B/W patch chart. I use Argyll CMS to create the patch set and read them. You can soft proof using such profiles.
Eric may have stopped making new profiles but the old ones are still valid for specific papers for the 3800 & 3880.
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Is it true that split toning and ABW in the Epson printer pipeline are incompatible ?
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yup
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Thank Ye !
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Thanks all for your help.
Have decided to go the ICC route. Please suggest a good affordable custom ICC profile maker who's patient with beginners like me.
Thanks again.
Richard
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This topic has been discussed many times over the past several years. The only way you can use a custom ABW profile is through Windows; Mac OS will not let you assign a profile in the ABW mode. Eric Chan stopped OTR is pretty easy to work with and you can use either a Color Munki or an i1 to create ABW profiles using either a 21 or 51 B/W patch chart.
I would move to QTR if I could find a good Color Munki Tutorial
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I would move to QTR if I could find a good Color Munki Tutorial
Hi,
What would you like to know?
I use QTR with ColorMunki on daily basis and it doesn't need any special tutorial other than those available over the net. The key is to understand how all things work with QTR, than it is easy with any spectro.
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What I would like to know is ....
A step by step instruction how to to create a curve for a paper type using the Color Munki from start to finish.
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You can use manual/tutorials available on QTR web page. There is a lot of content, but curve creation, at least if you use original inks, is fairly simple:
1) print ink separation target for all of your channels (in fact black and grays would be enough at the beginning) for given % of ink limit (which you can estimate by printing the same for 100% first and then finding by CM the darkest black while it stops getting more black)
2) measure the darkest patch of each gray in relation to black (you can even do it with scanner, since no absolute values are needed, only relative) - with ColorMunki you use spot metering
3) put those values in the curve creation tool (for beginners by modification of some default paper curves included in QTR)
4) print 21 or 51 step wedge with those settings (e.g. CM 21 chevron-like tiff is available in QTR)
5) measure the values of the wedge - by spot or strip measuring (writing down L* values menually or by exporting the whole measured CM palletd to cxf and then importing to Excel using xlm import macro easy to find on the web)
6) put the values into linearisation tab, and that's all.
If you want to change tint of the print, you must experiment.
In my opinion, the most important is to know how QTR works, more than having step-by-step instruction for given spectro - QTR documentation is far from ideal and it leaves number of actions for aware user to experiment.
hope it helps
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Thank you
For 1) are you referring to the inksep.psd file
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Thank you
For 1) are you referring to the inksep.psd file
no, to inkseparation.tif in bin folder of QTR (at least in Windows version). it can also be inlseparation6.tif or any other depending on the printer you have and the number of channels
I forgot to write, that the separation should be printed in Calibration mode of QTR. For CM, it is the best to fit it to the whole page
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Does anyone know why it says "The Lab Values are not in order Cannot make a profile"
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could you please write down what have you done and how and what have you measured?
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I tired various ways including the ones in your previous post and also the step by step here http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/QTR-Flatbed.pdf
Everything appeared straight forward up to the point of actually making the curve where I keep getting that message.
I have attached the descriptor file from which i tried to crate a profile and linearise it.
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Something really looks strange with your measurements. It looks like you are getting almost total black in the last six patch readings. I've never seen this happen in all the papers I've profiled. I wonder if that's the reason you are not getting a profile made.
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Something really looks strange with your measurements. It looks like you are getting almost total black in the last six patch readings. I've never seen this happen in all the papers I've profiled. I wonder if that's the reason you are not getting a profile made.
Yea the blacks look odd to me as well. I wish someone would do a youtube video showing the steps really for those of us who are visual learners :)
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QTR expects to see different increasing numbers. Those last patches are weird with LAB of one. Have you tried measuring again. Here's the Northlight info: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/bw_print_colormunki.html
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I am not usually beat by software but I have to hold my hand up to this one :(
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I am not usually beat by software but I have to hold my hand up to this one :(
I don't think it's the software; something is off with the measurements. If you go to the Northlight Image link that Jeff Grant posted and scroll down you can see a sample output with density values that smoothly change throughout the range. I haven't owned a ColorMunki for several years but you should get reliable patch readings from it. I may have missed it but what paper are you printing on? The Dmax seems a little high to me.
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The Paper is a third part paper (Marrutt pro Satin Semi Gloss)
I am going to start from the beginning again by printing out the Ink Separation chart wit the QTR Print Tool
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The Paper is a third part paper (Marrutt pro Satin Semi Gloss)
I am going to start from the beginning again by printing out the Ink Separation chart wit the QTR Print Tool
Before you spend too much time and effort from the beginning you should try to find out what caused the problematic readings of the step wedge. Just use the printer's normal driver and print the 21 step wedge out and measure it. If you are not getting a smooth transition reading you need to figure out why otherwise you are wasting more time and effort on the front part without solving the backside issue.
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I have gotten much further now although seem to be stuck on the last hurdle.
Having gone through all the steps outlined in the PDF help files, I am now at the final stage where I need to install the new curve into the printer by using the Install3880.command.
[size=78%]Every time I do this I am presented with Invalid linearize curve - not Constantly increasing. Can anyone help please[/size]
[size=78%]My Descriptor file for my new curve is attached.[/size]
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I have gotten much further now although seem to be stuck on the last hurdle.
Having gone through all the steps outlined in the PDF help files, I am now at the final stage where I need to install the new curve into the printer by using the Install3880.command.
[size=78%]Every time I do this I am presented with Invalid linearize curve - not Constantly increasing. Can anyone help please[/size]
[size=78%]My Descriptor file for my new curve is attached.[/size]
The last 2 lines in the linearize reveals you have probably a too high ink limit. Try decreasing your black boost. The l value should be decreasing every step without being too close to the next value. Try changing you gamma otherwise.
Bwmastery.com Mr Boutwell also has a tool for free that makes your curve better. Try that?