Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on March 31, 2006, 03:34:21 am
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I got a message from Yair saying he was afraid to reply to me publicly on rg ... re. screens.
A nutshell summary is Leaf cannot get access to the best screens coz they don't order enough of them.
My position is that a good screen is a work tool (check lighting, expression, hairs on face, focus depth of field) in fashion work, and a sales tool (when the AD says OK! you can stop shooting and start billing).
So, I think maybe there should be a $1K or $2K "good screen" option for the guys who need it (like a good lens). And at those prices even Leaf should be able to order them.
Edmund
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I am a new Leaf Aptus 75 user . I just received it one week ago and as far as it goes I am happy with the files it produces . The screen is good . Better and bigger than than those used by Phase One . But if tomorrow Leaf would come out with an even better one I would be ready to pay for the upgrade . Actually it is the only hardware upgrade I can think about after one week of use .
GH
PS. I would be happy to see Yair posting here .
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If Leaf have difficulties getting access to better LCDs I would guess its more likely to be due to the suppliers required quantities than any specific item cost. If they can't manage it on a product retailing at $30K I would doubt charging another 1-2K for the screen would make much difference to their supplier. I would think its more likely that they would be required to purchase too large a volume from the supplier, to give them access to the potentially better LCDs, than would be financially feasible. Its probably calculated on hundereds of thousands of units rather than thousands and thus only relevant to mass producers in the 'compact' market. In other words economies of scale might be the issue.
All of this is of course only my conjecture.
Matt
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More than accuracy and brightness is in play when a manufacture chooses a screen.
Probably the most critical attribute is power consumption. As buyers of MF digi backs move more to untethered setups, battery life becomes the guiding force when the manufacture chooses a screen.
I've never seen a screen that was accurate enough to make color judgements on, not in 35mm stlye DLSR's anyway.
I want analysis of data and menu selection i.e. histogram, focus.
I think you are expecting too much.
Bob
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Bob's point is well made. Phase One backs, the ones that I'm most familar with, have really poor screens. But this really isn't much of an issue. As long as I can see the histogram and flashing highlights, that's what matters.
The name of the game, from the back maker's point of view, is low power consumption. The new 33-39MP sensors are particularly power hungry. Big bright screens are nice to have, no doubt, but they are power eaters, and my preference is battery life every time over a bigger and brighter screen. High power consumption also translates into heat, and heat is the enemy of low noise.
If I need a big screen I simply shoot tethered with my 12" Powerbook in the field, or 30" Cinema display in the studio.
Michael
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A bright, power efficient, accurate and cost-effective screen is a bit of a long-shot with current tech. We'll have to wait a few years for newer display technologies such as OLED to mature enough before we get what you are wanting.
"Digital ink" will be the ultimate LCD replacement IMHO. Imagine an image displaying right on the back that looks like it was printed there on paper. No need to worry about backlights not being bright enough. The only time it consumes power is when the image changes. They just started producing BW displays (from Sony and I believe Phillips) so it'll be a number of years before we get a good color version.
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If I need a big screen I simply shoot tethered with my 12" Powerbook in the field, or 30" Cinema display in the studio.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=61436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That seems the ultimate solution when the bulk is acceptable. Isn't there also the option with some MF backs of using a PDA as a hand-held external viewing screen, larger than any current in-camera LCD?
Another brand new option might be bundling one of the new Origami devices with roughly 7" display size, for a review screen far bigger than any in-camera LCD but still a lot more portable than a laptop.
If it is truly the low volume that keeps bigger/better LCD's of digital backs, bundling a PDA or Origami device (and bracket for hanging it under the back?) seems one way around the problem.
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Isn't there also the option with some MF backs of using a PDA as a hand-held external viewing screen,
That's exactly what you get with the Valeo backs. Works very well too but still obviously not up to the level of a good laptop display.
Of course there is one other option but I doubt it'll go down well with many digi back users.
Polariods........
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I am a new Leaf Aptus 75 user . I just received it one week ago and as far as it goes I am happy with the files it produces . The screen is good . Better and bigger than than those used by Phase One . But if tomorrow Leaf would come out with an even better one I would be ready to pay for the upgrade . Actually it is the only hardware upgrade I can think about after one week of use .
GH
PS. I would be happy to see Yair posting here .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=61413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gabi, nice hearing from you. I'm here listening and have been on this forum for a while.
This subject of screens has been exhausted over several forums and private discussions. The bottom line is that if a better screen comes along and is made available for our use and fits our spec, we will use it.
The Bluetooth option for using the Aptus with a PocketPC as a viewing aid is coming out next month.
All the best
Yair
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I like having the screen on my Aptus but I am not dependent on it to review images other than composition and histograms . I would much rather see money spent of the file or even better high iso performance .
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When you shoot landscapes or stills a poor screen maid not be a problem but when you photograph people it is a real pain . I would prefer to carry 10 extra batteries just to have the best possible display .
Gabi
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This subject of screens has been exhausted over several forums and private discussion
Yair
Yair, the subject has not been exhausted, nor will it be exhausted soon - you might as well say that the subject of lenses has been exhiausted. People here, including me, are investing time not in criticising the existing product -which they like- but in suggesting improvements, I suggest you take advantage of those suggestions.
And then I have a story. At Apple Expo last year in Paris I met a lady called Dalit something who worked for Leaf as a marketing director. As you know, I was at the time a photo columnist for Publish.com for which I wrote more than 40 stories and reviews of photo equipment last year.
Now I talked to Ms Dalit xxx and she didn't have a lot of answers about Leaf products, but a lot of questions about me. A lot. She kept not answering questions about product and asking questions about me.
When I suggested Leaf post some picture samples so that photographers might differentiate the Leaf product look from the Phase look, she asked what format ? Jpeg or Tiff ? When I said Raw it turned out she didn't know what Raw was.
Next day I saw Ms Dalit of Leaf again at the same show and she said she'd had me "checked me out" and found my articles. I asked her what she thought of them, she replied she thought "I changed subjects a lot". She certainly had me "checked out" - my web server showed hits from such places as treasury.gov and assorted 3 letter agencies which I never saw again after that.
I think if you had employees at Leaf who were a bit more interested in photography, knew what a Raw file is, knew the product, and were a little less interested in having journalists investigated ("checked out") by the US secret service and the FBI, it might help. Or is civilian photography really the main business of Leaf ?
Edmund
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The Bluetooth option for using the Aptus with a PocketPC as a viewing aid is coming out next month.
All the best
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=61485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Yair, I can't help noticing that you posted the news on April Fool's Day. Given Leaf's penchant for broken promises and missed datelines, I will believe it only when I see it.
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Here's a demo that shows Leaf research staff testing the next generation onboard LCD screen :>))
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6379146923853181774 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6379146923853181774)
Mark
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Another important feature regarding the display is the ability to check the focus . When you shot landscapes the focus is usually in the distance so it is not critical . You just close to f 11 and you can't go wrong . But when you work in the close range the focus is critical and the ability to quickly zoom in at 1:1 to check the focus on a good display is far more important than the battery life . On a high resolution sensor even the slightest focus error is visible .
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Hi. Dalit Boutboul here; still Leaf Marketing Manager.
I was forwarded this email by colleagues and must say that I found it very hurtful and personal. Not to mention paranoid and ridiculous.
Thank you Edmund, for calling me an ignorant, noisy spy. I appreciate the nature of the public posting, which for sure will be very pleasant for me at work these days.
Let's clarify, though for those of you who know Edmund, this will be unnecessary; 1. Being new to the business, I tend to ask a lot of questions. I think that it's a good thing and despite the neurotic and paranoid tendancies Edmund has, he actually was quite entertaining at the show.
2. Our American distributor, Leaf America, has placed raw Leaf images for download on their site. Feel free to check them out; www.leaf-america.com.
we've recently revamped our own site and will have some as well very soon.
3. I'm not CIA, FBI, US Treasurey, MI5, KGB or Mossad (I hope I didn't forget any; Edmund wil be sure to remind me). But I found the suggestion that I am vastly amusing!!! All I did was go online and read his articles, but hey; maybe I'm the one being followed. Shhh!!!!
Lastly, I truly believe that my colleagues at Leaf are all highly professional people, who value each customer and try to make their life easier and agreable. Edmund; I resent you suspicions and strongly suggest you refrain from personal, non-professional, unfounded and totally ludicrous accusations.
Dalit.
.
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who value each customer and try to make their life easier and agreable.
I was right there with you untill that part.
I have noticed a trend here of Leaf customers having a slightly hard time putting thier faith in Leaf as company. I can certainly see how this can have occured just from my own dealings with the company. I had to work very hard to get my issues resloved, although in the interest of fairness, they were in the end (even if only to 98% satisfaction).
It says ALOT for your product that despite having our troubles with Leaf as a company we are here praising the virtues of the backs.
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2. Our American distributor, Leaf America, has placed raw Leaf images for download on their site. Feel free to check them out; www.leaf-america.com.
we've recently revamped our own site and will have some as well very soon.Dalit.
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=61875\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have just wasted 15 mins of my time going to a non-existent web site; then figuring out that the URL is bogus, found the right one; browsed to the correct address and search the hell out to locate a sample RAW file to no avail.
Wow, is this what Ronald and others have been talking about?
BTW, I'm totally new to MF DBs and am trying to find the right product to consider, so I have no brand bias at this stage but certainly would be more cautious of Leaf from now onwards.
Henry
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certainly would be more cautious of Leaf from now onwards.
I can understand that completely but I do have to say that in the two years or so that I've been using Leaf backs I've never once had cause to doubt the product. Yes they do seem to fall short of looking after customers at times but for me, that shortfall has been more than compensated by the efforts and attention of Calumet, who sold me the backs.
In many ways it's a little like dealing with Apple.
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I can understand that completely but I do have to say that in the two years or so that I've been using Leaf backs I've never once had cause to doubt the product. Yes they do seem to fall short of looking after customers at times but for me, that shortfall has been more than compensated by the efforts and attention of Calumet, who sold me the backs.
In many ways it's a little like dealing with Apple.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=61884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is good to hear but like you said, you are lucky to have Calumet. I'm in Singapore and my own experience with distributors of photographic gear here is already poor, so buying complex equipment is pretty much like swimming on your own and not having a coach with you. Forum like has helped and that is why I seek out credible views from fellow photogs.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Henry
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I have just wasted 15 mins of my time going to a non-existent web site; then figuring out that the URL is bogus, found the right one; browsed to the correct address and search the hell out to locate a sample RAW file to no avail.
Henry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=61883\")
Hi Henry!
I checked the Leaf site and found the files in 25 secs... but then again, I was born under lucky stars...
here is the link:
[a href=\"http://www.leafamerica.com/download_images_form.asp]http://www.leafamerica.com/download_images_form.asp[/url]
You just write your name and email adress, press submit and there you go!
Next page You can choose what files to download.
For other posters in this thread:
Personally I feel it a bit strange that ppl here in this forum are so strong with words? I found the previous posts confusing and rude - specially when people are mentioned by their names.
I used to spend a lot of my time in RG medium format forum. For reasons already mentioned in other threads I too came here to seek for alternatives - but this thread makes me wonder if this can be a forum where I would spend my time. And yes - it´s my choice to make..
Maybe I was just raised old fashioned way?
regards,
Sami
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Sami,
Thank you!
At least now I have some files to check out.
Henry
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"For other posters in this thread:
Personally I feel it a bit strange that ppl here in this forum are so strong with words? "
Reading some of the previous posts I also had this feeling .I hope it won't become a habit .
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I'm with you on this,Sami.
After just a few days posting here the trend does seem to be moving to more confrontation,
often without cause.
People with no,or next to no contact,with certain products who come in swinging at reps
will do nothing but drive away input from the company side. We may not neccessarily like
the answers but we should be counting ourselves fortunate that there is ANY presence on
a public forum from a manufacturer. Interaction between corporate interests and pro
photogs was exactly what made the RG medium format forum so valuable and if the
trend continues here then I suspect we'll lose that potential before it really gets off
the ground.
I'm closing in on my DB decision and Leaf is at the front of the pack specifically because
of the excellent service I, who doesn't even own one of their products, has received.
Yair,from Leaf UK shot specific images to address some of my concerns and sent me
the RAWs on DVD in Montreal.
Similarly,Vistek (the Canadian Phase rep) has also gone beyond the normal 'protocol' for
making backs and files available to me to better evaluate their product.
Mark
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Ms. Dalit Boutboul, with all due respect, not only do you need to work on your marketing knowledge, you need a heapful of help in public relations. This is not the way to respond to criticism in public, whether justified or not. It is simply not professional.
You got Leaf America's URL wrong and you did not refer to Leaf's own world-wide URL : www.leaf-photography.com. So I believe Edmund when he said that you did not know what RAW was. I would say that you are pretty inept as a marketing manager.
If I were Edmund Ronald, a letter would be on its way to the Chairman of Eastman Kodak in Rochester, about the inappropriate response from the Marketing Manager of one of its subsidiaries.
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Ms. Dalit Boutboul, with all due respect, not only do you need to work on your marketing knowledge, you need a heapful of help in public relations.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=61916\")
Here is an article I wrote last year about the MF situation at the time.
[a href=\"http://www.publish.com/article2/0,1895,1840050,00.asp]http://www.publish.com/article2/0,1895,1840050,00.asp[/url]
I followed up with a call to Trine Voss, VP for sales and marketing at Phase One. She really, really didn't share my views, but she certainly knew her product, was tough and direct in telling me she thought I was wrong, and -guess what ?- I printed what she said and added to her company's visibility. Oh, and by the way, did I say she knew her product? I think that knowing your product and answering questions directly helps getting your message across.
http://www.publish.com/article2/0,1895,1843030,00.asp (http://www.publish.com/article2/0,1895,1843030,00.asp)
Edmund