Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Black & White => Topic started by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 03:58:04 am

Title: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 03:58:04 am
One wonders why there has not been any effort so far by one of the mayor players to release a B&W digital camera that would offer better dynamic range, noise performance and overall image quality compared to converting current color images to B&W? Yes, there are two options, either a Phase One back or Leica M (Monochrome), both of with are out of reach for the vast majority of photographers.

Will Sony release an A7M (Monochrome) ILC being the leader in sensor manufacturing? Sony surely could pull this one off and provide a dedicated B&W camera in the range of $1500-$2500.

But till then what to buy to convert color to BW images? I assume great dynamic range and the ability to pull shadow detail are worth having when converting?
What to buy in the range up to $1000 and what up to $2000? Personally i see the Sony RX100 IV a viable option (great to pull shadow detail) in the lower price tier.
Looking forward to reading your comments. (I cross-posted it in the camera gear section as there is more activity.)
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: GrahamBy on September 20, 2015, 07:31:52 am
No, it's not at all surprising. You just take your colour image into Lightroom or other, and average your colour pixels to make grey ones. By averaging in software, you've achieved most of what you could have done with larger monochrome pixels that average in hardware.
Plus, you get to choose your weighting, which is like being able to reach back in time and change the filter on your lens.

In fact, many years ago I came to the same conclusion comparing Ilford XP-2 dye-based monochrome film against colour film of the same ISO: after scanning and conversion to B&W, there was no advantage to using the mono film (other than easier at-home processing IF you could find the chemistry, which was gradually becoming impossible).

For getting a sensor with good DR, you could just go trawl through the measurements at DXOmark http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Ratings
The Nikon 7200 has DR> 14 bits for $1200 apparently. My Pentax can only manage 13.4. You know what, I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference in my photography.

Some perspective: yesterday I was looking at "Us and them", a book by Helmut Newton and Alice Springs of portraits. The one on the cover is by Alice/June: low light, Tri-X pushed at least one stop, hand-held OM4 (I think). The shadows are completely blocked up, the highlights are all blown out, but it's an exceptional photo... I wouldn't swap it for an entire catalogue of perfectly exposed, razor sharp landscapes. But that's me.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 07:58:07 am
Thanks Graham!
The LR color Mix slider is indeed a joy to use for BW conversions.
So do you think any image quality improvements a BW sensor would have over a color one is negligible?
Cheers.

Plus, you get to choose your weighting, which is like being able to reach back in time and change the filter on your lens.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 07:59:27 am
Therefore a color sensor that can pull shadows without streaks (not Canon) and high DR would be ideal. Sony, Nikon...
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: GrahamBy on September 20, 2015, 08:08:30 am
See edits above. I think the cost of developing a mono sensor for such a small niche market (DSLR is already a niche) would make it extremely unlikely to be at the cutting edge...
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 08:19:36 am
More of a statement product, then.

But then what of the current gen mirrorless is best for BW usage? E.g. having an EVF that can be turned to BW might be helpful (for some, for some not).
That's why i was asking as i am a color shooter since a long time and not been exposed much to BW digital.

See edits above. I think the cost of developing a mono sensor for such a small niche market (DSLR is already a niche) would make it extremely unlikely to be at the cutting edge...
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: john beardsworth on September 20, 2015, 08:54:54 am
So do you think any image quality improvements a BW sensor would have over a color one is negligible?

Depends how you define image quality.... Capturing in colour lets you control the B&W conversion afterwards and usually produces a better final result than if the tonal separation had been frozen at capture time. Much as B&W is my default, I just wouldn't want to spend much on a camera limited to B&W capture.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Herbc on September 20, 2015, 11:47:03 am
As I began my serious photography in the 1950's, you can be sure b/w was all I did. Now, with Sony's  lightweight camera's, it is still all I do, although with digital software.  One can do some real nice work with a 24mp camera and software such as NIK's Silver EFX that would take me many hours in the darkroom with a Large Format Negative.  It is assumed you would print your own work, but if there is a
good printer in your area that will use Baryata papers, that is also good.
No need to spend $$ for big megapixels.  I have a gallery winner that was taken with a Sony Nex-7, which can be found used for $400.  I got rid of my D800's.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Paul Roark on September 20, 2015, 12:16:59 pm
...
What to buy in the range up to $1000 and what up to $2000? ...

I'd recommend a used Sony a7r for that price range.  With the advent of the a7rii, there should be a lot of good used ones on the market. 

(I currently use the Sony a7rii and keep the older one as a backup and training for my adult daughter.  Leica M9 and, most importantly, M optics remain in the picture.)

The mono v. RGB capture issue, digital and film, has been discussed before, and the experiences vary, probably depending, in part, on the size of enlargement, styles and lots of other variables.

My own experience has been that once digital sensors got to their current level (actually to the M9 non-diffused 18 mp) the RGB advantages in Photoshop processing outweighed the speed, noise and sharpness advantages of the grayscale sensors.  Note that I do wall display landscape types of images.  If I were an experienced street photographer a grayscale sensor (Leica Mono) might win the contest. 

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Telecaster on September 20, 2015, 03:32:50 pm
See edits above. I think the cost of developing a mono sensor for such a small niche market (DSLR is already a niche) would make it extremely unlikely to be at the cutting edge...

There's no need for this. Sensors are already mono by default. Creating color via filter arrays is an added expense both in terms of manufacturing and data processing. Just eliminate the CFA et voilà! No more need for demosaicing either. Of course simulating global filter effects in software becomes an issue…better to use actual filters.

My guess is mono cameras will continue to be niche indulgence projects regardless. The number of buyers willing to devote a camera solely to b&w is surely small.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: GrahamBy on September 21, 2015, 05:09:47 am
Just eliminate the CFA et voilà! No more need for demosaicing either.

I'm not a sensor design engineer, so maybe I've got this all wrong. But I'd have thought that if you simply drop the filter array, you'd get exactly the same result as fixed weight averaging post-exposure. The only advantage I can see is that of eliminating some wiring and hence increasing the total sensor area on the die... although that also would seem to be redundant given the latest rear-wired sensors.

Basic story: the generic, universal solution is now so good that there is no useful gain to be had by specialising: the compromises have no real technical cost.

As for why someone thinks an 18Mp mono range-finder is worth more than twice a 37Mp DSLR with better DR, or a 50Mp DSLR with marginally less... that's a question for psychology and marketing... but whatever makes the buyer happy, in the end.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: brandon on September 21, 2015, 06:43:33 am
Just to add the Sigma Merrills are pretty good for B&W capture
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: JohnBrew on September 21, 2015, 07:10:14 am
Leica M8 series are especially good for bw as they lack an AA filter and have a thinner cover glass than later models. And they are getting almost reasonable! I believe Pentax has an AA-less crop frame DSLR which would also make a good candidate.
But don't be put off by brand specific recommendations - any digital camera can make respectable bw.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: EduPerez on September 21, 2015, 07:13:16 am
Just eliminate the CFA et voilà! No more need for demosaicing either.

There is people who did this already: the CFA is a thin layer on top of the sensor, that can be easily removed with a small piece of wood, plastic, or any other soft material. Unfortunately, the CFA array is also the lens array, and without it you also lose a noticeable part of the light that reaches each photosite.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Mousecop on September 21, 2015, 10:34:26 am
what of the current gen mirrorless is best for BW usage? E.g. having an EVF that can be turned to BW might be helpful (for some, for some not).
They will all basically use the same conversion process, so they should all be about the same. The better question is which mirrorless system will meet your goals overall.

I happen to use Micro 4/3. Quality is good enough, EVFs are usually very good, lenses can be excellent, the system is small and lightweight. I find it useful to shoot in RAW, set the EVF to B&W, and do the conversion in post. Fuji also has an excellent platform.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Telecaster on September 21, 2015, 05:10:19 pm
But I'd have thought that if you simply drop the filter array, you'd get exactly the same result as fixed weight averaging post-exposure. The only advantage I can see is that of eliminating some wiring and hence increasing the total sensor area on the die... although that also would seem to be redundant given the latest rear-wired sensors.

The CFA just gives you a means of separating in-coming light into wavelength ranges. This in turn gives you a means of creating color. Sensors don't know from wavelengths. They count photons and, via the photoelectric effect, express those counts as voltages. Eliminate the CFA and you have a monochrome sensor: photosites with higher voltage readouts are interpreted as "brighter," those with lesser voltages as "darker." No need, or desire, for any wiring changes.

With a hi-res camera like Sony's A7r2, or the latest Canon 5Dwhatevers, you should be able to get less tonally manipulated monochrome output while preserving decent spatial resolution (~10.5–12.5mp) via processing each RGBG array to a single full-color output pixel. Which you'd then convert to mono via existing methods. This would, in theory anyway, eliminate most if not all demosaicing/interpolation artifacts and so would benefit color tonality too.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Jager on September 21, 2015, 07:31:47 pm
I think pretty much any modern digital camera will work just fine for B&W work.  Color RGB sensors have gotten very, very good.

That said, as the owner of two Leica Monochrom's (the original CCD version as well as the newer CMOS model), I can affirm that, for me, there are both technical and creative benefits to using such a dedicated camera.  It prompts you to see in tones of gray, much like when you load a roll of Tri-X in a film camera.  Actually, the whole process of shooting a dedicated-monochrome camera is very much like shooting film.  And, yeah, I was a naysayer when Leica first announced the Monochrom back in May of 2012.  I thought it was indeed a contrived, 'statement' camera, with little practical use.  I would have laughed at the notion that three months later I would not only own one, but that it would quickly become the finest, most addictive, most creatively inspiring camera I had ever owned.

Alas, I agree with the sentiment that the market for such niche cameras is exceedingly small.  I wouldn't count on seeing more of such models, from other makers, anytime soon.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bassman51 on September 21, 2015, 08:45:57 pm
They will all basically use the same conversion process, so they should all be about the same. The better question is which mirrorless system will meet your goals overall.

I happen to use Micro 4/3. Quality is good enough, EVFs are usually very good, lenses can be excellent, the system is small and lightweight. I find it useful to shoot in RAW, set the EVF to B&W, and do the conversion in post. Fuji also has an excellent platform.

I shoot my m43 cameras in Raw+JPEG, and monochrome.  This gives me a monochrome JPEG and the full-color Raw image. 
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Telecaster on September 21, 2015, 09:03:59 pm
I shoot my m43 cameras in Raw+JPEG, and monochrome.  This gives me a monochrome JPEG and the full-color Raw image.

Me too. It's a Cool Thing IMO to see in monochrome while taking photos intended to be printed and/or displayed the same way.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: chez on September 21, 2015, 10:56:05 pm
Me too. It's a Cool Thing IMO to see in monochrome while taking photos intended to be printed and/or displayed the same way.

-Dave-

How close is the b&w JPEG to your ultimate b&w image that you derive from the raw image? How do you use the JPEG image to better the b&w raw image?
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: drmike on September 22, 2015, 02:34:12 am
Don't you find you learn to 'see' in B&W?
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on September 22, 2015, 10:12:20 am
Don't you find you learn to 'see' in B&W?

Do you mean to 'see' a picture at all, or just to see it in terms of black/white?

Not a smart-ass trick question.

Rob C
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2015, 10:26:00 am
Don't you find you learn to 'see' in B&W?

In which B&W? In the B&W as if you'd used a red lens filter with film, or the B&W after using the green filter, the yellow, the blue etc. IOW, is "learning to see in B&W" anything more than a cliché?
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: GrahamBy on September 22, 2015, 11:26:39 am
I think one learns to recognise the sort of compositions/scenes that will work in B&W, vs those where removing the colour info will kill them. However personally, there are many times when I want to look at both possibilities before deciding, even if in 80% of cases I go with the B&W.

That's why I don't understand the interest of a mono camera : it's not as though I'm exposing expensive sheet film and really need to visualise the scene in advance in B&W (and I'm not aware that ground glass provided that feature back in the day either). I press the button and decide later, since my card holds 600 raw images (and I'm not a "mitrailleur"). I guess it's conceptually possible that seeing the image in B&W on the LCD would make me notice some mono-specific compositional issue... but even then, I can arrange that via B&W jpeg if I want.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: drmike on September 22, 2015, 02:51:26 pm
Do you mean to 'see' a picture at all, or just to see it in terms of black/white?

Not a smart-ass trick question.

Rob C

I reality both but the ability to envisage a scene in B&W is a skill I had when shooting film and rediscovered earlier this year. I think that in the day most film shooters could do that.

I also believe that it can help to simplify a scene to B&W to see the underlying compositional elements and see if they are sound as a foundation for a colour image. Not always relevant but it can help.

But this always has the caveat - but what do I know? As I grow older I realise just how little I know about anything.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: drmike on September 22, 2015, 02:53:30 pm
In which B&W? In the B&W as if you'd used a red lens filter with film, or the B&W after using the green filter, the yellow, the blue etc. IOW, is "learning to see in B&W" anything more than a cliché?

Yes to all of those depending on the result you are hoping for. To envisage the image processed as B&W, teh distill what is before you to shades of grey and tones rather than have the distraction of colour. Maybe it is a cliche, I don't know but I do know that plenty of photographers I know seem to have a hard time doing this.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: rdonson on September 22, 2015, 03:03:47 pm
More of a statement product, then.

But then what of the current gen mirrorless is best for BW usage? E.g. having an EVF that can be turned to BW might be helpful (for some, for some not).
That's why i was asking as i am a color shooter since a long time and not been exposed much to BW digital.

My Fuji X-T1 enables me to shoot RAW+JPEG *and* have the EVF depict B&W with my favorite Fuji film emulsion.  You can further refine your experience as shown in this link.

https://erohne.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/custom-settings-for-the-fujifilm-x-t1/

Sometimes the JPEG suffices nicely most of the time I use the RAW file and go to Google Silver Efex Pro 2 or MacPhun Tonality Pro to get it just the way I want it.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2015, 03:53:34 pm
Yes to all of those depending on the result you are hoping for. To envisage the image processed as B&W, teh distill what is before you to shades of grey and tones rather than have the distraction of colour. Maybe it [seeing in B&W] is a cliche, I don't know but I do know that plenty of photographers I know seem to have a hard time doing this.

Perhaps because they really don't need to do so? Will "seeing in B&W", whatever that means, actually change the photo you take? Maybe if you have an EVF that lets you choose the particular B&W filtration, but in general I wonder if the idea isn't way beyond its sell-by date.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Telecaster on September 22, 2015, 04:01:21 pm
How close is the b&w JPEG to your ultimate b&w image that you derive from the raw image? How do you use the JPEG image to better the b&w raw image?

Sometimes it's close, sometimes just a general approximation. Some cameras allow for finer in-camera b&w profile tweaking than others. But I don't really use the b&w JPEG per se…my aim is to see b&w in the EVF. I spot a potential photo with my eyes, in color of course, and then use the EVF to judge how it might work in monochrome. This is when I'm taking pics with mono in mind.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on September 23, 2015, 11:33:09 am
Just to add the Sigma Merrills are pretty good for B&W capture

For some jobs an Olympus or Pentax + pixel shifting should deliver a similar or better base for B&W images. It is essentially the RGGB Bayer filtering that might reduce B&W resolution/image quality. That said theoretically any sensor based on RGB filtering/sensitivity does not represent the continuous spectral sensitivity of a specific silver halide B&W film, whether Fovean, Bayer or Bayer pixel shift. Not that experts will be able to see that difference in the resulting B&W prints.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on September 23, 2015, 11:45:28 am
1.   I reality both but the ability to envisage a scene in B&W is a skill I had when shooting film and rediscovered earlier this year. I think that in the day most film shooters could do that.

I also believe that it can help to simplify a scene to B&W to see the underlying compositional elements and see if they are sound as a foundation for a colour image. Not always relevant but it can help.

2.   But this always has the caveat - but what do I know? As I grow older I realise just how little I know about anything.


Note: Numerals mine.

1.   Indeed, especially if you were doing fashion: mid-green against mid-blue and everything vanished, including the client!

2.   Imagine being a specialist: more and more about less and less until we reach the point you fear! (But you're not there yet - I almost have arrived. ;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on September 23, 2015, 04:54:26 pm
It's fun enough carrying an old (but immaculate!) D200 around, sticking on a Cokin holder and a bit of glass with a delicate smear of Vaseline.

Miss film with larger cameras, but only really interested if somebody is willing to pay a lot of money for the effort. I'm safe: they are not.

Though I have a D700 as well, it seldom sees battle unless I know I'm going to be messing about in the available dark. I find no discomfort with keeping the D200 at no more than ISO 400 and just going along with what it wants to give me. It's not for money, it's for amusement and mental health. Everybody can make that perfect exposure today; even a cellphone gets you there, but it's a little bit hollow just being 'perfect' and more satifying defying the laws of photographic gravity. Non?

Rob C

(http://www.roma57.com/uploads/4/2/8/7/4287956/9818331_orig.jpg)

Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Morris Taub on September 25, 2015, 01:29:41 am
It's fun enough carrying an old (but immaculate!) D200 around, sticking on a Cokin holder and a bit of glass with a delicate smear of Vaseline.

Miss film with larger cameras, but only really interested if somebody is willing to pay a lot of money for the effort. I'm safe: they are not.

Though I have a D700 as well, it seldom sees battle unless I know I'm going to be messing about in the available dark. I find no discomfort with keeping the D200 at no more than ISO 400 and just going along with what it wants to give me. It's not for money, it's for amusement and mental health. Everybody can make that perfect exposure today; even a cellphone gets you there, but it's a little bit hollow just being 'perfect' and more satifying defying the laws of photographic gravity. Non?

Rob C

(http://www.roma57.com/uploads/4/2/8/7/4287956/9818331_orig.jpg)


oui...
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: tom b on September 25, 2015, 04:37:05 am
One of my favourite B&W processing treatments.

Process your colour image in Photoshop ACR. Then go to Image/Adjustments/B&W.

Cheers,

Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: bokehcambodia on September 27, 2015, 08:20:27 am
Thanks for all your comments. This turned out to be an interesting conversation in the end  ;)
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Dave Millier on October 19, 2015, 06:15:15 am
Late to the party but I wanted to say that this a nice photo. Not one-off Earth shattering, not "inspirational", not photographer-of-the-year but if it were part of a series hanging on the wall in a cafe or restaurant, I'd find it quietly, convincingly satisfying. Some shots just look "right" without striving to be a hero shot and this is one of those.

In fact, it it were one of mine sitting matted on my desk just now, I wouldn't actually care what anyone else thought, I would just be quietly smug, a job well done. 

I know this isn't the over-the-top enthusiasm people traditionally like to dish out on internet forums but here's to the quiet shots...





It's fun enough carrying an old (but immaculate!) D200 around, sticking on a Cokin holder and a bit of glass with a delicate smear of Vaseline.

Miss film with larger cameras, but only really interested if somebody is willing to pay a lot of money for the effort. I'm safe: they are not.

Though I have a D700 as well, it seldom sees battle unless I know I'm going to be messing about in the available dark. I find no discomfort with keeping the D200 at no more than ISO 400 and just going along with what it wants to give me. It's not for money, it's for amusement and mental health. Everybody can make that perfect exposure today; even a cellphone gets you there, but it's a little bit hollow just being 'perfect' and more satifying defying the laws of photographic gravity. Non?

Rob C

(http://www.roma57.com/uploads/4/2/8/7/4287956/9818331_orig.jpg)
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 19, 2015, 06:45:08 am
As for why someone thinks an 18Mp mono range-finder is worth more than twice a 37Mp DSLR with better DR, or a 50Mp DSLR with marginally less... that's a question for psychology and marketing... but whatever makes the buyer happy, in the end.
It has a Red Dot on it though!
My local cameras shop always told their customers who looked at the "Leica' pocket camera, that the identical Panasonic camera is considerably cheaper. They still sold far more rebadged Pannys pretending to be a Leica than they did the Panasonic original, despite the large premium for the Red Dot on camera.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 19, 2015, 06:49:23 am
But this always has the caveat - but what do I know? As I grow older I realise just how little I know about anything.
But you have learnt possibly the most important thing, perspective.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 19, 2015, 06:54:01 am
Though I have a D700 as well, it seldom sees battle unless I know I'm going to be messing about in the available dark. I find no discomfort with keeping the D200 at no more than ISO 400 and just going along with what it wants to give me. It's not for money, it's for amusement and mental health. Everybody can make that perfect exposure today; even a cellphone gets you there, but it's a little bit hollow just being 'perfect' and more satifying defying the laws of photographic gravity. Non?
I have had several pocket cameras which didn't match the quality of my big cameras, but had a nice rubbish 'quality' of their own.
My iPhones though have always been disappointing as they are not a patch on a proper camera and sadly not interesting in a crappy way either. 
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: stamper on October 19, 2015, 07:08:47 am
I reality both but the ability to envisage a scene in B&W is a skill I had when shooting film and rediscovered earlier this year. I think that in the day most film shooters could do that.

I also believe that it can help to simplify a scene to B&W to see the underlying compositional elements and see if they are sound as a foundation for a colour image. Not always relevant but it can help.

But this always has the caveat - but what do I know? As I grow older I realise just how little I know about anything.

The problem is that what you "see" is different from what the camera captures. The weakness that all cameras have is that they average out the exposure and tonal values will then be changed?
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 19, 2015, 07:34:43 am
The problem is that what you "see" is different from what the camera captures. The weakness that all cameras have is that they average out the exposure and tonal values will then be changed?
Which only matters if you shoot automatically and also do not tweak image in darkroom or Lightroom.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Herbc on October 20, 2015, 11:18:19 am
I may have missed it, but St. Ansel recommended one use a wratten green filter in the shape of the film frame to visualize what the scene would look like in b/w.  Seems like it would still make sense? 8)
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2015, 12:38:54 pm
I may have missed it, but St. Ansel recommended one use a wratten green filter in the shape of the film frame to visualize what the scene would look like in b/w.  Seems like it would still make sense? 8)
Only if you then shoot with a green filter in front of your B+W film.
A red, orange or blue filter will give very different looks.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: rpsphoto on October 20, 2015, 01:21:11 pm
I used an M Monochrome over a three day period when it was first released. My impression was very favorable in general. Personally, I found the images a bit too sharp and clinical. I think, like all digital files, your success depends largely on your post processing skills. My approach is to use a sync'd color management system and a standard workflow on color images that are converted to b&w.


Best regards,

Bob
CEO  CFO  EIEIO, Ret.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2015, 01:32:55 pm
CEO  CFO  EIEIO, Ret.
Your signature made me laugh BTW.  ;D
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: rpsphoto on October 20, 2015, 01:36:02 pm
Thanks J3...my former employer cracks up as well.


Best regards,

Bob
CEO  CFO  EIEIO, Ret.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on October 24, 2015, 09:44:50 am
Late to the party but I wanted to say that this a nice photo. Not one-off Earth shattering, not "inspirational", not photographer-of-the-year but if it were part of a series hanging on the wall in a cafe or restaurant, I'd find it quietly, convincingly satisfying. Some shots just look "right" without striving to be a hero shot and this is one of those.

In fact, it it were one of mine sitting matted on my desk just now, I wouldn't actually care what anyone else thought, I would just be quietly smug, a job well done. 

I know this isn't the over-the-top enthusiasm people traditionally like to dish out on internet forums but here's to the quiet shots...


Thank you, Dave; I just refound this thread too, so apologies for not responding earlier!

On the series thing: yes, I have been wanting to do something like that for a while now. I used to have the perfect, functioning, printer for B/W: HP B9180. Still have it, but HP has abandoned me re. inks, so I switched off to let it die quietly on the desk, where it stares blankly at me each time I enter the office. For some reason, I can't bear to dump it. I'll never buy another printer now unless I first manage to sell off the apartment and go somewhere else to settle down for the last time.

Some things suck. But thanks again for the nice comments re. the picture.

Rob
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jjj on October 24, 2015, 10:02:29 am
I used to have the perfect, functioning, printer for B/W: HP B9180. Still have it, but HP has abandoned me re. inks, so I switched off to let it die quietly on the desk, where it stares blankly at me each time I enter the office.
I have an Epson Printer that still can be filled with ink. However because photo quality prints can be produced by a lab at a lower prices than I can print at home, it simply gathers dust.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: algrove on May 23, 2016, 11:02:10 pm
To answer the OP's question

Leica Monchrom
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on May 28, 2016, 05:34:19 pm
To answer the OP's question

Leica Monchrom


Meeeaow!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 01, 2016, 06:35:56 pm
I would second the Sigma DPx recommendation, great for B&W work!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: GrahamBy on June 04, 2016, 07:46:30 am
I really don't understand the fuss. Many years back, I used Ilford XP2 BW film for C41 chemistry because of its very fine grain structure and good speed.
Then one day I did back-to-back comparison with images shoot on colour neg fim and compressed to BW after scanning. I couldn't see any advantage to the BW film.

It seems to me the situation with a dedicated B&W digital camera is the same: in theory it could pick up a stop of speed by jettisoning the colour filter in front of the sensor, but in reality that is not available. There is no resolution advantage because of the way raw converters treat the luminance info. So I would lose the freedom to filter by colour post-hoc, or to keep the colour, and gain nothing in return except some snob value.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: Rob C on June 04, 2016, 10:37:13 am
I really don't understand the fuss. Many years back, I used Ilford XP2 BW film for C41 chemistry because of its very fine grain structure and good speed.
Then one day I did back-to-back comparison with images shoot on colour neg fim and compressed to BW after scanning. I couldn't see any advantage to the BW film.

It seems to me the situation with a dedicated B&W digital camera is the same: in theory it could pick up a stop of speed by jettisoning the colour filter in front of the sensor, but in reality that is not available. There is no resolution advantage because of the way raw converters treat the luminance info. So I would lose the freedom to filter by colour post-hoc, or to keep the colour, and gain nothing in return except some snob value.


But it could also lighten the load on your shoulders from packing that wallet!

Despite being a dedicated slr user, I would like to try a Leica RF digital for my interest in 'blurs and suggestions' phase, simply because I think I see value in seeing beyond the edges of my frame in these cases, and it would make it easier to know where the subject is when panning at slow shutter speeds when the mirror flips and loses vision for you...

Rob
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: petermfiore on June 04, 2016, 04:17:41 pm

But it could also lighten the load on your shoulders from packing that wallet!

Despite being a dedicated slr user, I would like to try a Leica RF digital for my interest in 'blurs and suggestions' phase, simply because I think I see value in seeing beyond the edges of my frame in these cases, and it would make it easier to know where the subject is when panning at slow shutter speeds when the mirror flips and loses vision for you...

Rob

Hi Rob,
In my youth I learned to shoot with both eyes open for that very reason. I found being right eye dominant this worked well for me...

Peter
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: jerryrock on June 13, 2016, 11:11:55 am
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the FujiFilm X-Pro2 with the 24 megapixel APS-C X-Trans sensor (non-bayer array and no anti-aliasing filter) This camera has a hybrid viewfinder (optical & electronic that will display in black and white with Fuji's Acros B&W film simulations. The simulations are available in standard, yellow red or green filters in camera or in Adobe Camera RAW. You can link the EVF to exposure simulation or turn it off for low light scenes. The camera even has added film grain available to further simulate B&W film.

The camera also offers focus peaking assist and split screen focus.
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: hermankrieger on August 23, 2016, 12:49:15 pm
I go to digital black and white via a rollfilm camera and scanner.
Photo Essays in Black and White-
www.efn.org/~hkrieger
Title: Re: Which camera to choose for B&W digital?
Post by: N80 on August 24, 2016, 07:13:06 pm
I go to digital black and white via a rollfilm camera and scanner.
Photo Essays in Black and White-
www.efn.org/~hkrieger

I used to do the same. Processed the film at home. Scanned it at home. Printed it at home. I enjoyed the process and enjoyed using my older cameras. But the success rate/dollar was pretty low and it was a lot of work. I have not done it in years. I have no chemicals or tanks anymore but might try it again someday. I have a few rolls of Ilford Pan F Plus that are still fresh.

As far as a dedicated B&W digital camera, I cannot imagine the need or paying for one. It seems to me the only thing you'd really need to look for in a digital body for B&W is how broad the Dmax is and maybe how well it does in low light (if you needed that sort of thing).

As far as Ansel Adams recommendation to view through a Wratten filter to visualize in B&W I think it can help. But honestly, when I'm committed to producing a B&W print and shooting often I begin to 'see' in B&W anyway. Not a special skill, I imagine it is true for anyone who shoots in B&W a lot.