Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Dinarius on March 10, 2006, 02:40:16 AM

Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Dinarius on March 10, 2006, 02:40:16 AM
Rumours are starting to appear about what the Mark lll will be like. e.g. here for starters........

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html)

If the next 1Ds is indeed a 20+Mp whopper, will it be the camera that finally does for the obscenely overpriced medium format backs?

Or will Canon's stranglehold on the market be so great that we'll just be screwed from all directions?

Needless to say, I hope it's the former. I recently did a 'back of the envelope' survey with a bunch of pros and asked them, 'How much of your work is for use up to A5?' The answer was, most of it. I then asked how much is used up to A4. A hell of a lot less was the general concensus. Finally, I asked how often they needed to shoot for larger than A4. Almost never came the reply. Pretty much what I expected.

Let's face it, our most critical viewing distance in terms of all round image quality is when we hold an A4 magazine or brochure in our hands. It simply has to look knockout. Otherwise it just doesn't pass muster. And the camera that covers this base at the right price will wipe the floor with all others. As of yet, I don't think it exists.

Will it be the Mark lll?

D.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on March 10, 2006, 05:21:48 AM
Huh, that has to be the thinnest speculation I've ever seen anywhere.

It's impressive that Keith couldn't conjure up some in-depth fantasies!

BTW, my guess is that the name will be Canon EOS 1DV or 1VD because:

1) it's about time to merge the 1D and 1Ds lines into a high-resolution camera that's also capable of high speed (perhaps at a 1.3x or 1.6x crop, similar to what the D2x does); this is not new speculation.
2) name similarity to the excellent brand name EOS 1V sends the signal that this is finally the ultimate digital SLR.

Of course, Canon may surprise (well, not really) us all and just launch a slightly re-vamped 1Ds MkII N in April, just as they did with the 1D MkII N.

But who cares! I can get a used 1Ds MkII for only USD 7100 (25% sales tax inclusive)!
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: michael on March 10, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Some site's ban speculation like this.

I don't, since it can be fun and informative.

But I agree. This is the thinest ever.

Let's move along.

Michael
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Dinarius on March 10, 2006, 08:33:06 AM
Quote
Some site's ban speculation like this.

I don't, since it can be fun and informative.

But I agree. This is the thinest ever.

Let's move along.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not so fast, the issues isn't simply one of whether or not that will be the next Canon.

The issue is also one of bangs (or pixels) for your buck.

Will a serious jump in resolution in the next Canon benefit all of us or not?

D.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: madmanchan on March 10, 2006, 08:40:18 AM
Quote
Not so fast, the issues isn't simply one of whether or not that will be the next Canon.

The issue is also one of bangs (or pixels) for your buck.

Will a serious jump in resolution in the next Canon benefit all of us or not?

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dinarius, I suggest you read Michael's recent article on his latest digital system.  One of the take-home lessons from that article is that few of Canon's lenses hold up to the merciless resolving power of the 1Ds II.  It can be argued that even the best are being pushed to their limits.  It stands to reason that a higher-megapixel sensor in a 24x36 frame will simply exacerbate the problem.  In other words, we'd get more but lousier pixels.

At this point, we're basically lens-limited.  Until the lenses improve, there's little point going to higher-resolution sensors.

Eric
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: bob mccarthy on March 10, 2006, 10:27:49 AM
I would be surprised if Canon released this camera at 20+ mpxl's. The photos won't be necessarily better.  I believe Eric has it correct.

Look to the new  30D

To me the real home run for Canon is the same chip, processing improvements and a "Smaller body".

If the D200 came with the same chip as the D2x, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

These digi cams are huge at the top end.

Bob
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: benInMA on March 10, 2006, 10:35:27 AM
Yah I would agree and expect it to be more like the 30D update.

Many people are saying the 1DsII only has marginal extra quality over the 5D.

If that is the case and the sensors are actually really pushing the lens, then they might choose to keep it at the current megapixel level and instead focus on merging the 1DsII and 1D into one FF body with high speed.

Personally I would not be satisfied with it being slow in FF and fast in 1.3x mode or something though, that would be a cop-out IMO.  The technology is there to make it shoot faster at that price point without cropping the image.

It's just a question of putting enough bandwidth & RAM into the camera, it's hard to believe the sensor itself is not fast enough for high speed and we know they can build all the mechanical bits to run at full speed.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: bob mccarthy on March 10, 2006, 10:57:01 AM
Quote
It's just a question of putting enough bandwidth & RAM into the camera, it's hard to believe the sensor itself is not fast enough for high speed and we know they can build all the mechanical bits to run at full speed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not as convinced as you that it would be inexpensive or as doable.

But more importantly, does the file size come into play when editing a zillion shots when an 8mpxl is perfectly functional for the typical high speed user.

I'm guessing but I think the breakthrough on the MK III is going to be reduced price over the MK II.

Bob
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: benInMA on March 10, 2006, 11:10:56 AM
For $8000 I think they should be able to make it run 8fps @ 16mp these days.

That's a lot of money, there are lots of other bits of computer hardware that can move that kind of data without costing $8000.

The actual CF storage, etc.. would seem to be more of the problem.   Moving that kind of data internally in the camera should not be that hard in an $8000 piece of hardware.

Video busses in cheap PCs can move that kind of data around without costing thousands.

Personally I could care less though, I'm not going to be in the market for a camera like that.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: francois on March 10, 2006, 11:12:20 AM
Quote
...I'm guessing but I think the breakthrough on the MK III is going to be reduced price over the MK II....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I really hope Canon is hearing you on this  
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Jack Flesher on March 10, 2006, 11:22:24 AM
As long as we're "hypothecating", I'll add mine

I think the big breakthrough will be a 4:3 aspect ratio sensor.  Using the existing lenses (image circle constrained) and similar sensor pixel-site size, this would add about 10% to gross resolution. Go even slightly smaller on the pixels and you get a 20% increase for roughly 20MP.

Now add in a pellicle mirror assembly and you can get high frame rates AND real-time sensor viewing.  AND by sealing that same assembly you can alleviate the sensor dust issues that plague the current 1-series cameras.  The pellicle does trim about 1/2 stop to the sensor, but with today's clean high ISO's that becomes a trivial downside for the added gains.

1.4x crop makes more sense to me than 1.3 or 1.6, but I won't complain if it is 1.3.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: madmanchan on March 10, 2006, 12:32:00 PM
I'll add this to the mix.  I found this post by Simon Dai over at RobGalbraith's forums:

Quote
In DC Watch's interview with Canon Japan's Mr. Murano from their Image Communication Products Operations at PMA 2006 in Florida, he said the following:


The image quality of the original EF 85/1.2L is considered very high so we chose only to improve the AF speed, shape of aperture diaphrams etc. In order to bring the image quality to a higher lever, overall improvement to the complete EF lens lineup including all fixed focal length lenses is being planned by Canon. Currently, there're many A3 size printers targeting high-end photo enthusiasts, as well as many large format printers specifically designed for professionals. In order to avoid conspicuous aberration when outputing images from the afore-mentioned equipment, there's a need for us to tackle the maintenance of our EF lenses.


If you read Japanese, the original can be found at the following URL:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/other/2006/03/02/3338.html (http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/other/2006/03/02/3338.html)

(the bold emphasis is mine)

Eric
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: 61Dynamic on March 10, 2006, 12:33:38 PM
I feel obligated to post the 1D MkIII picture again. It's obviously a fake since it has no Direct Print button.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on March 10, 2006, 01:44:09 PM
If that quote can be believed about Canon planning to improve the resolution of the EF lens line, I am surprised, because they have done absolutely nothing in this direction throughout their 35mm format DSLR development, and surely Canon has known for years the capabilities and limits of its current lenses. Indeed I was about to cite the fact that the recent Mark II update of Canon's very high end 85/1.2L failed to increase resolution.

Anyway, even if such lenses are planned, Canon could not deliver a full suite of them in time next 1Ds model, so I agree with the prediction that the "Mark III" will mainly address the most glaring weakness of the 1Ds series so far: low frame rate.


P. S. If Canon's image quality goal is "good enough for A3 printers" as indicated, I am not sure if that calls for going substantially beyond the current 16MP. Canon might only mean getting its lenses up to the level needed by 16 to 20 MP 24x36mm sensors.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Jack Flesher on March 10, 2006, 02:14:07 PM
IMO only, but...

Just like with film, camera platforms are going to hit limitations based on their form factor.  I suspect the 35mm DSLR is already there and in fact, cameras like the 1Ds2, DMR and D2x are generating image quality essentially on par with the best MF film images of a few years ago.  

The next step up therefor is high-resolution digital MF sensors -- which we now have -- and they are currently pressing into territory that just a few years ago was relegated to large-format film only.  The most important piece of the LF mix that was missing was camera standard movements. So add the MF back to a camera with movements, presto you've got a digital "view" solution.  Yet with that same back mounted on a compatible MF camera, you have a relatively portable and extremely high resolution digital combo.  

The only component that keeps the above from totally killing off traditional LF for commercial users is an even higher-resolution scanning back -- which we also have available -- and for the most part that device can exceed what even Ultra-LF format film can simply because of lens deficiencies as you go that large.

So, I am of the opinion that from a resolution standpoint we have just about hit the maximum for the conventional DSLR camera and agree that future enhancements will focus () on improving other aspects of image quality and the hardware.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: benInMA on March 10, 2006, 03:20:15 PM
Improvements in lenses will certainly be nice if they can pull it off.

In many areas there is little to be done.  (e.x. most of the stuff beyond 100mm they are doing pretty darn well)

It'd be nice if they revamp some of the wide primes, etc..

I'm not sure their lens development has actually slowed down during their big DSLR push, there has been a steady stream of new lenses over the last 3-4 years.   But putting all those resources into so many DSLRs and then having to split lens efforts between EF and EF-S the last few years can't have helped.

IMO though people are probably expecting some improvements they are just not going to get, don't hold your breath for ultra-wide zooms that equal Zeiss & Leica primes for example.

Things I'd like:
- 50/1.4 with ring USM
- Redo the 20/2.8 (optical), and 24/2.8, 28/2.8, and 35/2 (optical + add ring USM, etc..)

Though that said the 20/2.8 I had showed some corner softness occasionally & the 24/2.8, 28/2.8, and 35/2 never really impressed me, they all beat the 17-40 f/4L I have now instead in several ways.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on March 10, 2006, 05:45:42 PM
Quote
I'm not sure their lens development has actually slowed down during their big DSLR push, there has been a steady stream of new lenses over the last 3-4 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed Canon has been vigorously developing EF lenses, but not in the direction of significantly increasing resolution, even by the amount needed just to handle well the 5.5 micron pixel spacing that the D2X shows is quite workable in a DSLR. Instead Canon has been adding IS, offering wider zoom ranges (17-40L, 24-105L, 28-300L) faster AF (85/1.2L) and reducing size and weight with DO and with f/4L lenses along side existing f/2.8L options (17-40/4L, 24-105/4L, 400/4L DO).
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Ray on March 10, 2006, 06:54:55 PM
Quote
Many people are saying the 1DsII only has marginal extra quality over the 5D.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed! Over at Rob Galbraith's forum there are some people even claiming the 5D produces better quality images than the 1Ds2, but I have great difficulty in believing the objectivity of such reports.

What does seem clear, however, is that any resolution advantage of the 1Ds2 is so slight that professional photographers have great difficulty demonstrating the fact over the internet, which seems very odd to me because I have no difficulty demonstrating the superior resolving power of the 20D compared to the 5D, even using a medium quality lens like the Canon 100-400 IS at 400mm.

Using the same lens from the same position with the 20D, 5D and 1Ds2, then cropping the 5D and 1Ds2 images to the smae FOV as the 20D shot, we would be comparing  8mp (20D) to 4.8mp (5D) to 6.4mp (1Ds2).

Now there's no doubt in my mind that in the above situation, the 8mp of the 20D produces better detail than the 4.8mp of the 5D. However, considering the very marginal difference between the 5D and 1Ds2, I would expect a similar very marginal difference between the 6.4mp of the 1Ds2 and the 8mp of the 20D.

I can't test it of course because I don't own a 1Ds2, but in principle 2 very marginal improvements add up to one bigger and more definite marginal improvement.

I therefore conclude that, if Canon offers us a 20mp upgrade to the 1Ds2, which will have the same pixel density as the 20D and 30D, those folks at Rob Galbraith's site will then be able to declare quite definitely that the new 20mp 1Ds3 produces better image quality than the 5D   .
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 12, 2006, 07:37:57 AM
As a happy d2x owner, what would it take for Canon to convince me to switch to a next gen 1ds (that I believe will be called 2DS)? In order of importance:

- 16 useful bits enabling smooth transitions to blown highlights,
- significantly better wide angle lenses,
- a much improved interface/ergonomics with less weight,
- no more than 6000 US$,
- around 22 MP.

Perhaps I am not alone, and perhaps Canon has been considering these things?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Gary Ferguson on March 12, 2006, 10:15:56 AM
Quote
In DC Watch's interview with Canon Japan's Mr. Murano from their Image Communication Products Operations at PMA 2006 in Florida, he said the following:


The image quality of the original EF 85/1.2L is considered very high so we chose only to improve the AF speed, shape of aperture diaphrams etc. In order to bring the image quality to a higher lever, overall improvement to the complete EF lens lineup including all fixed focal length lenses is being planned by Canon. Currently, there're many A3 size printers targeting high-end photo enthusiasts, as well as many large format printers specifically designed for professionals. In order to avoid conspicuous aberration when outputing images from the afore-mentioned equipment, there's a need for us to tackle the maintenance of our EF lenses.

That's got to be one of the most significant things I've read in a long time, and it makes me a lot more confident about my investment in the Canon system.

The specific reference to A3 and large format printers seems to exclude any PR fluff about generalised long-term improvements. It nails the issue squarely. It's an attributed quote from within Canon that's absolutely explicit. They recognise that the traditional enlargement range of 35mm cameras is changing, A3 is the new 8"x10", and to meet that challenge they need to offer better optics, especially amongst the wider focal lengths.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Dinarius on March 13, 2006, 04:48:11 AM
Quote
What does seem clear, however, is that any resolution advantage of the 1Ds2 is so slight that professional photographers have great difficulty demonstrating the fact over the internet, which seems very odd to me because I have no difficulty demonstrating the superior resolving power of the 20D compared to the 5D, even using a medium quality lens like the Canon 100-400 IS at 400mm.

I think it's worth reminding people, in the context of what you have written, that to double resolution, it is necessary to almost quadruple megapixel count.

Bearing this in mind and being someone whose camera is:

a. Permanently on a tripod
b. Always set to RAW
c. Always set to Manual

All of the bells and whistles, as well as the tougher 'in the field' build quality, associated with the 1Ds Mark ll are irrelevant to me. And the 5D at sub $3k becomes a no-brainer! ;-)

D.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: David Anderson on March 13, 2006, 04:58:00 AM
I think Canon have got it right to about 90% with the 1DS II, but a few things could be addressed with whatever follows.

Buffer speed can catch me out on some shoots.
Resolution is not such a big issue for me anymore, but less noise at high ISO would be usefull.
Most of the prime lenses are more then good enough, but the wides could be a bit better in the corners.
All the Tilt shifts are great..

I've hired medium format backs for a couple of shoots and I think they have a ways to go before they come anywhere near the D1S II 's for ease and speed of use and lens selection.
That's what I'm spending my money for..

David.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on March 13, 2006, 06:45:51 PM
Quote
I suspect the 35mm DSLR is already there
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would not be surprised if Canon were not to go much further with pixel count, but that would be partly due to insufficient demand to justify the R&D cost of the needed higher resolution lenses.

Technologically, it does seem quite feasable for 24x36mm format to have sensors with pixel spacing down to about 5 microns, and lenses that can keep up, which would get good old "24x36" to about 30MP. I believe this because
- the Sony CMOS sensor for the Nikon D2X, Kodak FFT CCD sensor for the E-300/E-500 and the Panasonic nMOS sensor for the E-330 show that roughly 5 micron pixel size can give quite good quality as far as dynamic range and such. Especially at low to moderate ISO speeds, which is surely where a large proportion of 30MP photography would be done.
- the Schneider and Rodenstock lenses for "large digital formats" also seem up to handling this 5 micron resolution, and what those companies can do for 60mm image circle (36x48mm), Canon can probably do for the slightly easier goal of 43mm image circle (24x36mm) ... at sufficiently high cost and weight!

P. S. I would love to see MTF data for the Fuji lenses for the Hasselblad-Fuji 645 system. Are they really sharper than the Mamiya, Zeiss/Kyocera/Contax or Pentax 645 lenses, as their high prices and some comments suggest? That is, did Hasselblad and Fuji set a higher standard, in preparation for digital needs?
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: gguida on July 24, 2006, 11:17:32 AM
We may all be disappointed but I already booked my trip to Photokina just in case. According to all the speculations, there seems to be a few very straightforward scenarios:

1 - Photokina yields nothing (or just an N version with a larger screen). Canon, as everybody else, is working on next generation sensors and won't be ready to show anything until later next year. Doesn't sound very likely as all the others are trying hard to catch up and will come up with new stuff.

2 - We get a completely updated camera, smaller, with a modern interface, different battery, very high frame rate, larger pixel count etc.. Not impossible and most people expect just that. Tentative specs would be 20+MP (just because they can), 6 to 8 FPS (because that would be very useful and cancel the need for a separate 1D line), 5D-like interface (because the 1D interface is unnecessarily complex and because with Canon, ergonomic advances tend to trickle from medium range upwards) with 1D-like Build, AF and Metering (no need to change something that works). Could be made significantly smaller by using Li-Ion batteries. Again, possible but not so likely.

3 - We get halfways with an N type update and a new sensor but not much else. This is my personal favorite because it asks for the least effort from Canon. The advance in quality the 5D brought shames the old 16.7MP sensor so it seems urgent to bring it up to par. For marketing reasons, it would be necessary to increase the number of pixels so customers can be persuaded to trade up. Making the rest of the camera conform to 1D MkII N specifications is just a matter of picking parts in the common bin. The "magic" 22MP everybody has been mentioning is not that silly as it allows you to take your picture, crop a good chunk off it (necessary for layout even if the framing was perfect) and still print at optimum resolution on a double page spread, the publishing standard. So quite likely. Although it would make sense to make it as fast as possible to be able to get rid of the 1D, I am not sure it is technically possible now with that many pixels.

A playable joker would be the introduction of a 3D to complete the range (12MP 5D, 16MP 3D, 22MP 1D) and fill the gap left by the 1D Mk II in the price hierarchy if it is discontinued. If it is not, it probably deserves to be upgraded to 12MP.

I expect that Canon will be concentrating most of its efforts at Photokina on its new line of IPF printers with a 6000 and 7000/8000 joining the 5000 and 9000. They were not properly demonstrated in the previous photographic shows and need a good public introduction. The fact that Canon downplayed the photographic prowess of their previous large format printers for several years waiting for the IPF to come out probably means it's an important long term strategical device for them to which they will want to give its due soon.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: n1x0n on July 24, 2006, 02:05:59 PM
Quote
Let's face it, our most critical viewing distance in terms of all round image quality is when we hold an A4 magazine or brochure in our hands.

Actually, i find B2 /50x70 cm. poster/ format to be THE most critical, since the usual use of such posters suggests viewing distances shorter /in relation to size/ than to A4.

Since most printing houses suggest 200dpi for large format printing - 22MP sensor will be the perfect one, since it gives exactly 50x70 at 200dpi. Any MP above that will be a wasted disk space for me.

After that? Let them deliver some extra DR, layered sensors, etc. but no more MP's please :-)
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Tim Gray on July 24, 2006, 02:09:50 PM
Quote
The "magic" 22MP everybody has been mentioning is not that silly as it allows you to take your picture, crop a good chunk off it (necessary for layout even if the framing was perfect) and still print at optimum resolution on a double page spread, the publishing standard. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll bet a beer on your #3.  

I also agree about the 22mpx.  I don't need 22 mpx to print a superb 17x25 (Michael's measuring megapixels DVD proved that for me) but I'm always getting caught by my desire to frame tightly (1d2) and avoid cropping since at 8 mpx I don't have a lot to spare.  For basic landscapes this isn't such a problem, but I would have had a lot more keepers from a recent shoot at the Toronto Grand Prix and even last weekend at the zoo if I could crop 22mpx ff down to about 11 or 12 at a 1.3 equivalent.

I can imagine the come-back now when someone asks me why I need 22mpx:  "I'm not a good enough photographer to rely on 10!"
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: pss on July 24, 2006, 02:10:23 PM
to make the next big canon better or put it in the same category as MF backs, the least problem is resolution, as we can see from the 5D...25% less pixels but still in the same ballpark....the problem is pixel depth...if you want a 22 mipx camera with a 37x48mm sensor get the ZD, but you are still shooting 12 bit...all MF backs shoot 16 bit which is 4x the pixeldepth which is why they are slow and big and the filesizes are a joke..but they simply deliver much better color, DR and much much better transitions and the files have a lot more room for tweaking in PS (or other)...also the pixels are bigger and that is where canon has pretty much hit a wall because of the 24x36mm limit and i don't see them changing that anytime soon (as much i would love to see they come out with a 30x36 or something like that)
the 1DsmkIII will probably have a new sensor built on the one in the 5D, just more pixels, so it will be a 18?,20?mpix with incredibly(until the next) smooth 800asa and 6fps raw...all still at 12bit...hopefully a larger and better screen...and probably 15% more shots per battery charge...
i have no secret info, all i have to do is look at the last 5 years of canon (or other) releases and this is the next step..maybe there will be some surprises is one way or another, but all in all cameras have gotten more resolution, smoother files and faster processing..step by step...
and if you look at the prices, they have never really come down...this will be the top of the line, 1DsmkII (or even 1Ds) are still selling at top dollar (even used) so why should canon ruin their own market?
the step up from canon (if you are looking fro image quality) will always be MF backs...
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on July 24, 2006, 04:27:57 PM
Quote
if you want a 22 mipx camera with a 37x48mm sensor get the ZD, but you are still shooting 12 bit...all MF backs shoot 16 bit
I was under the impression that several were 14 bpc.

Quote
which is 4x the pixeldepth
No, you double for each extra bit, so 4 extra bits means 16x.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 24, 2006, 05:46:35 PM
Quote
to make the next big canon better or put it in the same category as MF backs, the least problem is resolution, as we can see from the 5D...25% less pixels but still in the same ballpark....the problem is pixel depth...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi there,

Agreed that bit depth is key, but I don't see why you look at the resolution issue this way.

Looking at it the other way around, you could say that Canon would have the potential to deliver a 22 MP camera whose outstanding sharpeness per pixel makes it look more like a 30MP one. The 12 MP D2x/5D have been shown numerous times to be close to the 1dsII in resolution with no disadvantage in terms of moire, this only shows that the 1ds2 is a poor performer.

Besides, this whole discussion does IMHO forget the most important element... The main problem of Canon with both the 1ds2 and 5d remans the wide angle lenses, and a 1ds3 or 2ds wouldn't interest me the least bit if Canon doesn't release a convincing new wide zoom with it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on July 24, 2006, 05:59:53 PM
Quote
Besides, this whole discussion does IMHO forget the most important element... The main problem of Canon with both the 1ds2 and 5d remans the wide angle lenses, and a 1ds3 or 2ds wouldn't interest me the least bit if Canon doesn't release a convincing new wide zoom with it.
The unofficial word to parts of the Norwegian press is that Canon intends to release several new lenses in August or at Photokina. But whether that actually improves the situation or not remains to be seen; rumors are good but I remain skeptical until Canon displays the goods.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Jack Flesher on July 24, 2006, 08:10:15 PM
Re bit depth, I agree -- that is Canon's current Achilles heel.

So... What is the word on Canon's tri-color sensor?  

I think it is *possible* the 1Ds3 might be on the order of 18 to 24 MP, true-color capture FOVEON style.  Wouldn't that be sweet!

,
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: John Sheehy on July 24, 2006, 11:18:28 PM
Quote
Re bit depth, I agree -- that is Canon's current Achilles heel.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I once thought so, but I have come to realize that the real bottleneck to DR is readout noise.  Every Canon has blackframe noise somewhere around a standard deviation of 2 at ISO 100 - much more than quantization noise.  Having an increase in bit-depth without a decrease in noise will have only a very small advantage that most people would never see.

Along with the deeper bit depth, you would also need better calibration of line-by-line blackpoint, and less random noise in the readout process.  12 bits can actually be a lot better than what we have now.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: pss on July 25, 2006, 01:41:06 PM
i absolutely agree that canon needs much better wideangle lenses...the ones available are junk...that is even obvious on the 1DmkII...
the 5D/1DsmkII comparison shows that every 6-12months the chips simply get improved and each pixel on these chips are simply of higher quality, so a chip with less pixels can actually compare with an older chip with higher resolution....this will never stop and the technology trickles down to consumer products...
i had a sigma/fovenon camera and loved it (the files) amazing what marketing (or lack of) and smaller marketshare can do to a superiour product....i can only hope that eventually all chips will be layered, but i think for now the existing technology will be milked to the max....can you imagine canon coming out with a 12mpix (or 36mpix on 3 layers) flagship? nobody (except for me) would buy it, because : hey you can buy a digicam with 10mpix for $600 now, why spend 8000 on 12?....resolution is like horsepower, a number that has to be seen in relation to the entire machine, a hummer with 500hp will never catch up to a golf with 200hp and i won't talk about handling, but both are very different and have different pros and cons (although i haven't seen any pros in a hummer:)....from my personal experience: the files from the 1DsmkII are great, but they are not even close (color, sharpness, depth..) to files from the P20 (even cropped to fit 8x10)..and both have 16mpix
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: DiaAzul on July 25, 2006, 02:25:22 PM
Quote
Hi there,

Agreed that bit depth is key, but I don't see why you look at the resolution issue this way.

Looking at it the other way around, you could say that Canon would have the potential to deliver a 22 MP camera whose outstanding sharpeness per pixel makes it look more like a 30MP one. The 12 MP D2x/5D have been shown numerous times to be close to the 1dsII in resolution with no disadvantage in terms of moire, this only shows that the 1ds2 is a poor performer.

Besides, this whole discussion does IMHO forget the most important element... The main problem of Canon with both the 1ds2 and 5d remans the wide angle lenses, and a 1ds3 or 2ds wouldn't interest me the least bit if Canon doesn't release a convincing new wide zoom with it.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I had heard a rumour that Canon was coming out with a series of Refractive Optics lenses which will have a blue ring on the end - something like 'L' with red rings, DO lenses with Green rings. These lenses will be targetted at the wider end of the range and complement the DO lenses which have traditionally been used at the telephoto end. Whilst the DO lenses are lighter, have less chromatic abberation the suffer a trade off in resolution, the RO lenses will have higher resolution, though will be heavier and perhaps have a bit more chromatic distortion.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: phila on July 26, 2006, 02:54:20 AM
On a slightly different tack, don't be surprised if Canon releases something rather different (seperately from the MkIII) in the not too distant future. Something with bellows!  

Just a rumour I heard. But from a source that carries some weight.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: digitaldog on July 26, 2006, 08:53:50 AM
Quote
Dinarius, I suggest you read Michael's recent article on his latest digital system.  One of the take-home lessons from that article is that few of Canon's lenses hold up to the merciless resolving power of the 1Ds II.  It can be argued that even the best are being pushed to their limits.  It stands to reason that a higher-megapixel sensor in a 24x36 frame will simply exacerbate the problem.  In other words, we'd get more but lousier pixels.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that's accurate but the question is, does Canon (or any other manufacturer) think they will lead the market with a bigger chip (which I suspect is a lot harder than solving the problem above; fixing all the lens for digital)? Does Canon want to put one more nail in Nikon's coffin (full frame yet?). Same for medium format expensive backs. I suspect very, very few users need more pixels these days. That hasn't stopped these companies from trying to convince us otherwise.

Oh if they would only help us with software! Imagine if they played nice and supported .DNG or provided instructions as to how they render the in camera JPEGs so RAW converters could produce an identical default rendering of the RAW (go listen to Lightroom Podcast #10).
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 27, 2006, 03:42:02 AM
Quote
I feel obligated to post the 1D MkIII picture again. It's obviously a fake since it has no Direct Print button.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

heh, those are always fakes. They're just "fun."
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 27, 2006, 03:45:30 AM
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I'll add this to the mix.  I found this post by Simon Dai over at RobGalbraith's forums:
(the bold emphasis is mine)

Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60002\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A new lineup of the EFxL lenses. My stomach feels like puking. I just bought the 24-70L, the 70-200L IS, and the 16-35L less than a year ago.  I wonder what the resale price of those lens will be when the "new" truly digitally pushed lenses come out? I also wonder if my heart will withstand the stress of my buying those three lenses again? Very depressing, and at the same time good news.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 27, 2006, 04:10:44 AM
...
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: gguida on July 27, 2006, 07:30:05 AM
- I can imagine the come-back now when someone asks me why I need 22mpx:  "I'm not a good enough photographer to rely on 10!" -

I like that. I shoot mostly moving subjects and if I crop too tight in camera, I always seem to loose something important (leg, wing, wheel...) so by experience, I tend to pad generously, which means more cropping in post production. Even with a 16.7 MP camera, I then find that many of my pictures fall short of the 30MB files required by my stock agent. So the more MP, the better as far as I am concerned.

Even for those shooting landscapes, I don't see how 2/3 or 3/4 or square should always be the right ratio for the image. What I would really like is a very large square sensor I can crop any way I like after the shot.

And if people disagree, I can always say I am not good enough to shoot 10MP...
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: KenRexach on July 27, 2006, 11:23:17 AM
The site clearly says its a 1Ds Mark II N, so its probably going to be a slight upgrade from the current 1Ds mk II just like the 1D mark II N was to the 1D mark II.

Basically, larger lcd screen, a tad more speed (memory/buffer etc) and some other options like picture styles etc., which are basically internal software upgrades. Mecanically and sensor wise the camera should be the same as the current 1Ds mk II.

Longshot posibilities are a crop mode and maybe more MP but its doubtful at this point.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 28, 2006, 05:45:23 AM
This is something I find interesting in the progression of photography. At some point we will have enough data to show with one wide angle lens at a specific aperture and just take the entire scene in without care for composition or anything else. Then we'll just start cropping the image like we want it. In other words, just shoot big and crop into the image what you should have done anyway while taking the picture. Better yet, just pay someone 20.00 US to take your camera out to a predefined location, for landscapes, set it on the tripod, and tell them to press the button while aiming at the horizon 100 times while the sun sets in aperture priority at F11. They don't even need to get the horizon line level. Use a good 20mm prime. We are being replaced by our superior counter parts--machines. I mean think about it. You can create an entire album using a hardware synth machine and a computer. If you don't believe it, listen to either The Prodigy, "The Fat of the Land" or The Chemical Brothers, "Dig Your Own Hole." Not one instrument on either album, but you would never know it. And the first song on "Fat of the Land," although it does have real vocals, extends digitally the range of the vocalists own voice to amazing ranges. I mean like no range any human could hit for that long--something like 2 minutes without breathing. And it sounds real, excepot you know no human could hold a note that long. It's pretty amazing. Go machines!  

Quote
- I can imagine the come-back now when someone asks me why I need 22mpx:  "I'm not a good enough photographer to rely on 10!" -

I like that. I shoot mostly moving subjects and if I crop too tight in camera, I always seem to loose something important (leg, wing, wheel...) so by experience, I tend to pad generously, which means more cropping in post production. Even with a 16.7 MP camera, I then find that many of my pictures fall short of the 30MB files required by my stock agent. So the more MP, the better as far as I am concerned.

Even for those shooting landscapes, I don't see how 2/3 or 3/4 or square should always be the right ratio for the image. What I would really like is a very large square sensor I can crop any way I like after the shot.

And if people disagree, I can always say I am not good enough to shoot 10MP...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 28, 2006, 05:53:39 AM
Yep, because why should they expend anymore money now when they can keep doing R&D without the expense of production retool for a completely new model? They have the market cornered. The next big leap in digital photography from Canon will come when some competition thumps them with a practical update and newer technology that everyone just "has to have" and that uses Canon lenses. I mean that's what I would do--make a back that fits Canon lenses, let Canon make the lenses for your new company, and beat them at the camera back game by using all your capital on the back and not the lenses.

I also noticed Canon are now making digicams in the 400 dollar range. Is that a new venture for them?

Quote
The site clearly says its a 1Ds Mark II N, so its probably going to be a slight upgrade from the current 1Ds mk II just like the 1D mark II N was to the 1D mark II.

Basically, larger lcd screen, a tad more speed (memory/buffer etc) and some other options like picture styles etc., which are basically internal software upgrades. Mecanically and sensor wise the camera should be the same as the current 1Ds mk II.

Longshot posibilities are a crop mode and maybe more MP but its doubtful at this point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Tim Gray on July 28, 2006, 09:59:39 AM
Quote
This is something I find interesting in the progression of photography. At some point we will have enough data to show with one wide angle lens at a specific aperture and just take the entire scene in without care for composition or anything else. Then we'll just start cropping the image like we want it. In other words, just shoot big and crop into the image what you should have done anyway while taking the picture. Better yet, just pay someone 20.00 US to take your camera out to a predefined location, for landscapes, set it on the tripod, and tell them to press the button while aiming at the horizon 100 times while the sun sets in aperture priority at F11. They don't even need to get the horizon line level. Use a good 20mm prime. We are being replaced by our superior counter parts--machines. I mean think about it. You can create an entire album using a hardware synth machine and a computer. If you don't believe it, listen to either The Prodigy, "The Fat of the Land" or The Chemical Brothers, "Dig Your Own Hole." Not one instrument on either album, but you would never know it. And the first song on "Fat of the Land," although it does have real vocals, extends digitally the range of the vocalists own voice to amazing ranges. I mean like no range any human could hit for that long--something like 2 minutes without breathing. And it sounds real, excepot you know no human could hold a note that long. It's pretty amazing. Go machines!

I agree with everything you say.  But realistically for a 20mm to crop down to 600mm I'd need even more mpx than 24

Take a browse of Ray Kurzweil's - the Singularity is Near.  One of his thoughts is that given the exponential growth in the areas of bio-tech, computers and nanotechnology by 2050 the distinction between man and machine will very very blurry.

I hope the fact  "You can create an entire album using a hardware synth machine and a computer." isn't new news to you    I did that myself 20 years ago with a Commodore 64 with a Casio 1000 and a Yamaha DX7.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on July 29, 2006, 06:30:10 AM
Quote
I hope the fact  "You can create an entire album using a hardware synth machine and a computer." isn't new news to you    I did that myself 20 years ago with a Commodore 64 with a Casio 1000 and a Yamaha DX7.
And Jean-Michel Jarre did it before you.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Ray on July 29, 2006, 06:31:21 AM
Quote
I agree with everything you say.  But realistically for a 20mm to crop down to 600mm I'd need even more mpx than 24

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just a few more, I'd say. How about 1.35 gigapixels on a 35mm sensor? If you cropped the image from a 20mm lens to the equivalent FOV of a 600mm lens (a crop factor of 30x) and provided lens technology had progressed to the point where a 20mm lens could be built that is diffraction limited at f1.4, delivering about 500 lp/mm at 50% MTF, then you could get a really noisy 1.5mp crop covering an area of around 0.8mmx1.2mm on the sensor. That's lower resolution than the D30 and probably much noisier than the cheapest current P&S digicam.

If you try to fit more than 1.35 gigapixels on the sensor, the pixel pitch would have to be smaller than the wavelength of red light (0.74 micron), which apparently would reduce efficiency significantly and increase noise dramatically. You would then also need a 20mm lens diffraction limited at an even larger aperture than f1.4, say f1. Just a bit unrealistic!  
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 29, 2006, 08:49:10 PM
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Just a bit unrealistic! 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At this point in time, yes. Remember that the Hubble telescope is enhanced using hardware enhancement, which works very well and was unheard of 10 years ago. Unless is goes against quantum mechanics, the time will come when you can take a 3MP image and blow it up to 6 feet and have it look near perfect. Pixel density isn't the only thing that can make a giant picture from a small crop. Remember too that it is impossible for humans to add more than two numbers at a time, but computers can do multiple calculations all at the same time--that would have seemed like sorcery 200 years ago. But you know where I'm going of course. It will happen. On another note, I read or watched a program where computer scientists said that in teh next 100 years, we will gain more knowledge into the workings of physics, chemistry, biology and all otehr areas of technology, not to mention computers--in other wrods, technological advancement will progress faster in the next 100 years than it has in the last 2, 000 by a factor of over 10x. That is mind bogling.

To give you an exmaple, in a tech magazine I read a few years ago there was a one page essay on motherbaords. At MIT (or another technology institution) a group of people programmed a computer with all known information relevant to build a motherboard. Well, it spit out a blueprint, and even though the engineers did not understand how some of the things the computer desinged would work, built it anyway to the exact specs that the computer called for.  They had a picture of it, and it was a strange thing indeed. I remember thiking it looked like something out of the Borg on Star Trek. It had pipes and weird shaped electronic devices all over it, with strange shaped sphere like appendages. They installed it, and sure enough, it outperformed anything we have built to that time. Engineers said they have no idea what the strange looking appendanges are for, but it worked, and it was very fast.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Ray on July 29, 2006, 09:30:40 PM
Quote
Unless is goes against quantum mechanics, the time will come when you can take a 3MP image and blow it up to 6 feet and have it look near perfect. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We can do that already. It just depends on how far away you are viewing the image. Appearances are appearances. Reality is something else.

I vaguely remember we've had this conversation before. Interpolation does not create additional information. It just makes an image look smoother; removes the jaggies on edges.

However, given sufficient computing power, sophisticated algorithms might be able to make guesses that are sometimes accurate. Was it Descartes who claimed, if we could know the exact position and velocity of every atom in the universe, we could predict the future for all time? I believe we now understand that idea goes against the theories of Quantum Mechanics.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: MarkKay on July 30, 2006, 01:15:28 AM
YOu are referring to the Heisenberg  Uncertainity Principle. THis principle states that one cannot measure values (with arbitrary precision) of certain conjugate quantities, which are pairs of observables of a single elementary particle. These pairs include the position and momentum. Mathematics provides a positive lower bound for the product of the uncertainties of measurements of the conjugate quantities. The uncertainty principle is one of the cornerstones of quantum mechanics and was discovered by Werner Heisenberg in 1927.
Quote
We can do that already. It just depends on how far away you are viewing the image. Appearances are appearances. Reality is something else. This principle

I vaguely remember we've had this conversation before. Interpolation does not create additional information. It just makes an image look smoother; removes the jaggies on edges.

However, given sufficient computing power, sophisticated algorithms might be able to make guesses that are sometimes accurate. Was it Descartes who claimed, if we could know the exact position and velocity of every atom in the universe, we could predict the future for all time? I believe we now understand that idea goes against the theories of Quantum Mechanics.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72096\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Ray on July 30, 2006, 03:57:27 AM
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YOu are referring to the Heisenberg  Uncertainity Principle. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you, MarkKay. It's always helpful to know what one is talking about   .
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on July 30, 2006, 07:59:40 AM
Quote
At this point in time, yes. Remember that the Hubble telescope is enhanced using hardware enhancement, which works very well and was unheard of 10 years ago.
I'm not sure where you get these ideas from, but:

1) The wavelengths of visible light won't change in the foreseeable future; that is just an obstacle we won't get past. We might be able to make better use of other wavelengths of electromagnetic waves, but that's something different.

2) The hardware enhancements of Hubble haven't been revolutionary to technology or science in themselves, but they have occasionally been very clever engineering feats.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: ddolde on July 30, 2006, 02:50:28 PM
CameraWest is taking preorders already !

http://www.camerawest.com (http://www.camerawest.com)

When I asked him if he had any specs he said he should know more in August.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: alainbriot on July 30, 2006, 03:28:44 PM
Quote
CameraWest is taking preorders already !
http://www.camerawest.com (http://www.camerawest.com)
When I asked him if he had any specs he said he should know more in August.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72162\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Looks like this website isn't concerned by non-release agreements!
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: fnagy on July 30, 2006, 08:59:06 PM
Hey everybody,

I like to fantasize and wish for things too in new equipment, but am not really enthusiastic about paying for new bodies.

Yes there are things that can improve the 1DS II, that has been covered in length by more eloquent individuals.

But hey, every camera has its positives and negatives, we make our descisions based on preferences and shooting styles and adapt.  The 1DS II has been a great camera for how and what I shoot, no real problems that have been disasterous, a real reliable workhorse if you maintain it regularly, keeps on ticking!

We can go on and on about what is better etc. the price as value per usable and valuable images, really make it.

I have shot with Zeiss lenses, as well as Nikon and some lot of Leica, as well as Blad lenses and an assortment of Rodenstock and Schnieder glass, and wish that Canon would get it's act together to produce usable wide angle lenses (both zoom and fixed!).  I hope that this is what they have in mind and not just a new 1DS III,  I do not really care about that right now, maybe later I will change my mind about it,  just give me glass that can match the sesor's performance and I would be one very satisfied individual.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: dwdallam on July 31, 2006, 05:11:15 AM
Quote
I'm not sure where you get these ideas from, but:

1) The wavelengths of visible light won't change in the foreseeable future; that is just an obstacle we won't get past. We might be able to make better use of other wavelengths of electromagnetic waves, but that's something different.

2) The hardware enhancements of Hubble haven't been revolutionary to technology or science in themselves, but they have occasionally been very clever engineering feats.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your two points are actually what I was getting at. But at one time wasn't the Hubble a little out of focus, but either softwre or hardware allowed the images to be enhanced to a very much higher and more useful level that without enhancement? If I'm correct, then why can not similar technology do the same for digital camera images? That's all I meant and I did not mean to get into a scientific debate about the physics of light--which I admit I have little if any useful knowledge.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: janagten on July 31, 2006, 06:05:47 AM
Quote
Looks like this website isn't concerned by non-release agreements!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

my shop whispered me 1dsmkIIn and 50mmL1.2
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on July 31, 2006, 07:22:23 AM
Quote
Your two points are actually what I was getting at. But at one time wasn't the Hubble a little out of focus, but either softwre or hardware allowed the images to be enhanced to a very much higher and more useful level that without enhancement? If I'm correct, then why can not similar technology do the same for digital camera images? That's all I meant and I did not mean to get into a scientific debate about the physics of light--which I admit I have little if any useful knowledge.
Yes, similar technology can do the same for digital camera images, and that similar technology is:

 - DxO Optics Pro
 - PTLens

... or, in some simple cases, just the lens correction tools in your raw converter.

Basically, Hubble's optics weren't of quite the quality that they wished for, and until they could replace the parts, they had to fiddle in software.

Also keep in mind that space telescopes and similar usually don't have the most advanced available technology, because they tend to spend a lot of time testing and checking the stuff before sending it into space. They're interested in "proven" technology, too. It's more important to have decent quality and premium reliability than the hippest, newest thing.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2006, 06:44:52 PM
This is an interesting discussion, but I see it falling a little bit into the easy "progress has no limit" trap.

Progress has very clear limits, and these are the laws of physics, that we can reasonnably assume to have very good models of at this stage.

When people at Betterlight advise against buying their higher definition models (higher than 6000 * 8000) for landscape use because of how diffraction will affect image quality at apertures smaller then f8, you start to get a feel for the limits of progress...

My feeling is that we will at best get middle format sensors that go up to 10000 * 15000 pixels and - MAYBE - 24*36 mm sensors around 5000 * 7500 with foveon like pixels, not more than that - and that will pretty much be the end of it in terms of resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: williamrohr on August 14, 2006, 11:52:38 PM
I have been doing a number of resolution tests recently with long lenses.  I am increasingly impressed with the little effect ISO setting up to 400 has on measured resolution in the digital realm.  Given that and the nonexistent stock of RS film cameras ... a RS digital camera would be a market winner .... and would reduce the number of sources for mechanical malfunction .... and seal the sensor away from dust etc.   This would also increase the justification for bringing out new versions of the 50mm f1.0 and 200mm f1.8 ... and all us wildlife long lens nuts would die for the lowered mechanical vibration ...
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: macgyver on August 15, 2006, 10:19:08 AM
One things that no one seems to have mentioned here when discussing how they think that the 1d and 1ds lines will be combined is the price.  I'm not totally current on my figures, but I know that the 1Ds II is signifigantly more than the Mk II N (thousands more!).  The 1d and its line is aimed straight up at PJs and the like, often times a very tight-budget group.  There's a reason you see so many using D200s and 20Ds, they just can't afford better.  Now, if you combine lines that ever further away from feasable for many working pros.

Thoughts?
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Tim Gray on August 15, 2006, 11:44:35 AM
Quote
One things that no one seems to have mentioned here when discussing how they think that the 1d and 1ds lines will be combined is the price.  I'm not totally current on my figures, but I know that the 1Ds II is signifigantly more than the Mk II N (thousands more!).  The 1d and its line is aimed straight up at PJs and the like, often times a very tight-budget group.  There's a reason you see so many using D200s and 20Ds, they just can't afford better.  Now, if you combine lines that ever further away from feasable for many working pros.

Thoughts?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


As long as you're willing to come to Toronto to collect, I'll bet a beer that the new one serries "3" is within 10% of the initial price of the 1ds2.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: DiaAzul on August 15, 2006, 03:55:47 PM
Quote
As long as you're willing to come to Toronto to collect, I'll bet a beer that the new one serries "3" is within 10% of the initial price of the 1ds2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's an interesting hypothesis. I am not sure how much longer Canon can continue to maintain its approximate 50% premium pricing over Nikon. Admittedly, Canon has some plus features but the current pricing of the 5D vc D200 and 1DsII versus D2Xs is starting to look expensive on a practical feature for feature basis. Having bought into Canon early on and 'locked' in to the system it is difficult to change, however, if I was looking again to by a new camera then Nikon has a stronger value for money offering than Canon.

If Canon does maintain the current pricing then the new 1DsII replacement needs to be damned good.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: John Camp on August 15, 2006, 05:23:12 PM
Quote
BTW, my guess is that the name will be Canon EOS 1DV or 1VD because: <snip>

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am prepared to absolutely guarantee that it won't be called the 1VD.  

JC
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on August 16, 2006, 04:03:38 AM
Quote
that's an interesting hypothesis. I am not sure how much longer Canon can continue to maintain its approximate 50% premium pricing over Nikon.
... or how long Nikon can continue to maintain its 20% premium pricing over Canon.

Admittedly, Nikon has some plus features, but the current pricing of the D2Xs vs 1D MkII N, D200 vs 30D and D70s vs 350D is starting to look expensive on a practical feature for feature basis.

(...)

See how easily it is to twist the argument around?

Canon and Nikon have probably deliberately made products that aren't easy to compare on a feature for feature basis, and which don't compete directly on price, either.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: mtomalty on August 16, 2006, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from:
I am prepared to absolutely guarantee that it won't be called the 1VD.[/quote

I agree. I think the more widely accepted term in todays culture is STD,not VD!

EOS-1 STD
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Olivier_G on August 17, 2006, 07:18:46 AM
Just a quick note to say that the 1Ds2 will be 2 years old, which means a 2.5x CPU speed increase following Moore's law: Canon can make a 22MP @ 8i/s for example (from 16.7 @ 4i/s)...
This would be the right performance level at the right time to unify the 1D/1Ds lines, and leverage higher volumes to aggressively reduce price at the same time (a single $5000 body?).
Don't you think?

Olivier
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on August 17, 2006, 02:58:13 PM
Quote
Just a quick note to say that the 1Ds2 will be 2 years old, which means a 2.5x CPU speed increase following Moore's law: Canon can make a 22MP @ 8i/s for example (from 16.7 @ 4i/s)...
Moore's law (as it is) says nothing about speed increase.

Also, it's not a law per se, it's an observation that held true for a bunch of years, and it's become an industry driver/motivator.

The original statement was:

Quote
The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year ... Certainly over the short term this rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase. Over the longer term, the rate of increase is a bit more uncertain, although there is no reason to believe it will not remain nearly constant for at least 10 years. That means by 1975, the number of components per integrated circuit for minimum cost will be 65,000. I believe that such a large circuit can be built on a single wafer.

Afterwards, observations told us that the increase of transistors per die area was 100% per 18 months.

While transistor density does have a strong correlation with performance, that correlation is not 1:1.

So, what should we expect, if Moore's law was a law of physics, and not merely an observation and industry driver?

Well, 18 months after the 1Ds MkII, we should then have expected a 33 Mpx chip in 135 format. Or, 36 months after the 1Ds, we should have expected a 44 Mpx chip.

But performance (readout speed, among other things) is hard to correlate without very detailed knowledge about CMOS sensor technology.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Olivier_G on August 17, 2006, 03:09:48 PM
Jani, you are quite right.
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But performance (readout speed, among other things) is hard to correlate without very detailed knowledge about CMOS sensor technology.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One (http://www.red.com/) with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it?  

Olivier
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on August 17, 2006, 04:37:50 PM
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Jani, you are quite right.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One (http://www.red.com/) with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it? 
Mind you, the Red One still isn't available for delivery, and it was promised for fall 2005 ...

It's a bit like the Mamiya ZD in that regard, only that the competition seems absent.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jrlennox_01 on February 20, 2007, 11:19:54 AM
Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?

Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: ddolde on February 20, 2007, 11:38:40 AM
Bet they don't call it the Canon H-IV either.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Graeme Nattress on February 20, 2007, 01:28:16 PM
Design work on RED one started around December 2005, so can't see how we could promise a fall 2005 delivery!

Instead, the schedule was "first images in the fall", which we did 2 weeks early at IBC 2006, and camera in "the new year", which is 2007.

It's actually a 12mp sensor active area, at 60fps. The sensor itself is larger still at 4900x2580, but some of those pixels are used for black level calibration etc.

Graeme

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Jani, you are quite right.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One (http://www.red.com/) with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it? 

Olivier
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: John Sheehy on February 20, 2007, 05:11:40 PM
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Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really don't believe that putting more pixels in a FF sensor will increase image or subject noise; only pixel noise.  Take a crop from a DSLR the physical size of a full image taken from a tiny-sensor prosumer both of the same area, with the same subject, true focal length, Av, Tv, and ISO, view at the same size, and I don't think you'll find much lacking in the P&S.  This "small pixels are bad" sentiment is misguided, IMO.  Small *sensors* mean lots of shot noise.  Big sensors with tiny pixels do not; not at the image or subject level.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: pss on February 20, 2007, 05:14:32 PM
as anyone cared to look when this thread was started?
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: David Anderson on February 20, 2007, 05:25:52 PM
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Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would change my lenses over to a new mount if there was a solid improvement in quality, if Canon could close the gap between medium format digital and 35mm with a new body costing the same as the 1DSII it would be for the work I do anyway, a very hard system to beat..
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Danijela D. Karic on February 20, 2007, 05:33:12 PM
Any addition to Canon's EF 50mm 1.2 ready for PMA?

CANON 1DS Mark lll at PMA?

I don't think so!!! perhaps Leica M9,

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']VIVA LAS RUMORS[/span]

Regards
Danijela
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on February 20, 2007, 07:12:42 PM
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"Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where do you get the idea of possible lens mount incompatibility? As far as I know, Canon has simply said that they intend to make some new very high quality lenses (wides at a guess) to help get the best out of its high resolution "full frame" sensors. Canon is talking about its current 24x36mm format, so there is not the slightest hint that the Canon lens mount needs to be changed to make a few higher quality lenses for that format. (In fact, there are apparently some Zeiss and Nikon wides that do a better job when adapted to EF mount than Canon's own wides.)

In particular, Canon's comments have had no hint of moving to a new larger format.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: david o on February 20, 2007, 10:34:33 PM
Improvement I'm waiting for :
16 bits
4:3

16MP is enough, don't mind for more for sure.

And a kind of removal back for upgrade.

Also removal prism like nikon F4.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Shaula on February 21, 2007, 01:49:38 AM
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Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?

Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Joe, it's entirely plausible that Canon is also concerned about IQ and producing an elite-level camera that will increase mp's while improving resolution, DR, and s/n ratio, which is why their big gun is overdue.  I would much prefer that they nail it and give us a great product that takes it to a higher level, instead of moving a product just because it has more megapixels but doesn't provide noticeably-improved imaging capabilities.

And no, I have no ideas on how they will accomplish this (NOT a gearhead).  But 15 years ago people were saying that 33.3 mHz was pushing the limitations of PC processor clock-speeds.  How many gigahertz are we up to now?

I've read it a hundred times:  "I don't care about more megapixels, I care about more DR and better noise reduction."  Maybe that's why Canon hasn't released their top model up to now.  We can only hope that when it arrives, it will have been worth the wait and will knock our collective socks off.  Until then, the Ds2 is not exactly chopped liver!
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 21, 2007, 03:47:22 AM
One thing that surprises me in this thread is the repeated use of the name 1dsIII, implying that only the sensor will be different.

Am I the only one to feel that the is a lot to improve on the 1ds series in terms of ergonomics,... and that the market should rather pressure Canon to release a 2ds instead of a 1dsIII?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Shaula on February 21, 2007, 04:15:24 AM
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One thing that surprises me in this thread is the repeated use of the name 1dsIII, implying that only the sensor will be different.

Am I the only one to feel that the is a lot to improve on the 1ds series in terms of ergonomics,... and that the market should rather pressure Canon to release a 2ds instead of a 1dsIII?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I doubt you are the only one.  By the same token, I rather like the 1 series bodies, and the only way I see the market pressuring Canon in this regard is if they (Canon) lose the high ground in the pro body market.  That would mean a serious drop-off in market share, which I don't see happening anytime soon.  But who knows what future designs Canon may release.  There have been those rumblings about something competely different in the offing...

What about the 1ds do you find badly in need of redesign, ergonomically speaking, should Canon R&D execs be reading these pages?
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on February 21, 2007, 10:07:39 AM
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... Canon to release a 2ds instead of a 1dsIII?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Canon's naming convention for EOS models so far has been that the top of the line models are all "EOS-1 something", with higher numbers like EOS-3 or EOS-5D indicating lower level products.
Note that the full name is "EOS-1 Ds Mark II"

Aside: Olympus seems to be continuing its mimicry of Canon nomenclature: the successor of the E-1 is tentatively named E-1P!
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on February 21, 2007, 12:58:43 PM
So maybe Canon should call the new one the EOS 0.5 Ds.  
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: phila on February 22, 2007, 01:19:40 AM
Well the just announced 1DMkIII has kept the nomenclature going. Interesting to see (apart from all the rest) it is 14bit.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: wilburdl on February 27, 2007, 04:22:39 PM
Well its almost a given now that the 1DsIII moniker will come to be. Taking cues from the 1DIII--It also looks to be a number of incremental improvements that add up to something very worthwhile to upgrade to. Like I mentioned in the 1DIII thread...
This will obviously be a new standard bearer. I can imagine the pressure on Nikon to produce FF will be considerable after it's release to market.
I like the updated body. I like that they kept the vertical grip integrated. Better weathersealing. Less buttons--while seemingly more ergonomical. I'm glad the design was more evolutionary than revolutionary. It'll make the transition rather easy. There doesn't seem to be too much you could complain about now.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on February 27, 2007, 04:42:22 PM
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I can imagine the pressure on Nikon to produce FF will be considerable after it's release to market.
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How is the release of a new 1.3x crop model by Canon a reason for Nikon to go to 35mm format? It points in the opposite direction, likely ensuring that Canon's top selling pro model will continue to be in a "crop format" not much larger than DX. (From Canon production figures, the 1DMkII has outsold the 1Ds models about 2:1).

One message of the EOS-1 D Mk III is a point that Canon has made repeatedly in recent documents: in digital, formats like 35mm/1.3x (and 35mm/1.5x) have a persistent, substantial cost advantages over 35mm format, big enough to be significant even to professional usage.

The 15% linear size difference (about 0.4 of a stop) between the DX and 1D formats seems too small to get very excited about.


P. S. On the subject of progress in making larger sensors without the expensive complications of "multiple pass" needed for the 1Ds sensors: the new 1DMkIII sensor is slightly smaller that of the 1DMkII: 28.1x18.7mm vs 28.7x19.1mm, and Canon says that this is "the largest sensor that can be made in one pass using cutting edge semi-conductor manufacturing technology".
The 1DMkII sensor has been made in one pass since its release three years ago, suggesting no increase in maximum "one pass sensor fab." size in that three years.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: wilburdl on February 27, 2007, 05:38:16 PM
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How is the release of a new 1.3x crop model by Canon a reason for Nikon to go to 35mm format? It points in the opposite direction, likely ensuring that Canon's top selling pro model will continue to be in a "crop format" not much larger than DX. (From Canon production figures, the 1DMkII has outsold the 1Ds models about 2:1).

Obviously more 1D units are sold because the price and frame rate are what attracts the sports shooters and others to this model. And given the reduced price--this trend should continue without any surprise.
I'm referring specifically to the top of the line models in both camps. I've heard Nikon owners who would love the chance to use there lenses at the focal length they were intended. Also, noise has always been an issue with their line and given the ever increase in pixel count to stay competitive--there will come a point (maybe with their next model) where noise reduction will become too obtrusive when squeezing in extra MPs.
With the 1DsIII presumably taking the leap into the 20+MP territory, it isn't hard to believe that Nikon owners will expect the D3X to come in somewhere around that pixel count as well (maybe 16-18MP).
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: jani on February 27, 2007, 05:58:19 PM
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P. S. On the subject of progress in making larger sensors without the expensive complications of "multiple pass" needed for the 1Ds sensors: the new 1DMkIII sensor is slightly smaller that of the 1DMkII: 28.1x18.7mm vs 28.7x19.1mm, and Canon says that this is "the largest sensor that can be made in one pass using cutting edge semi-conductor manufacturing technology".
The sensor doesn't appear to be smaller, but the active image area is.

If you look at the 1D Mk II N white paper (http://www.sportsshooter.com/pix/EOS1DMarkIINWhitePaper.pdf) (page 12) and compare with the 1D Mk III white paper (http://www.robgalbraith.com/public_files/Canon_Full-Frame_CMOS_White_Paper.pdf) (page 9), you'll see that the areas appear similar, but that there is a wider border on the 1D Mk III sensor.

This may imply that there's a greater number of "outside" pixels used for analysis compared to the previous generation, and might explain at least part of the claimed improvements in image noise handling.
Title: CANON 1DS Mark lll
Post by: BJL on February 27, 2007, 06:26:01 PM
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The sensor doesn't appear to be smaller, but the active image area is.
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That seems likely: that the die size and reticle size limit of the fabrication equipment are the same, but design changes gobble a little bit more around the edge. Canon's smaller DSLR sensors have likewise shrunk similarly, from 15.1mm high to 15mm to 14.8mm, and Kodak's 4/3" sensors have lost 0.1mm of height over the years.

The main conclusion I see is that the fabrication size limits have probably not changed at all in three years. Which is "fifteen in gadget years", as someone said: long time no change.