Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: bob mccarthy on March 08, 2006, 05:14:17 pm
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I can feel your excitement in the way you wrote the new system. Jealous, you betcha I am.
I used a 4x5 Technikardan some years back. I still rue the day I sold it. The folding feature was very useful for transport to the field.
The do produce a medium format version. I keep thinking a digital varient is in my future.
Congrat's
bob
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That system shames and frightens me. I think I'm going to go with the key fob camera.
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Great system, but the cost is prohibitive for most at the moment. Being at the leading edge has costs consequences. Nice system though
My recent decision has been more retro - I am buyng a 10x8 field camera and shooting more sheet film while I bide my time and wait for the digital back market to shake out a little more. Heck, its a view camera, but a big one, and there is something I miss about the look of film - and I have a drum scanner to do the scans so it sort of makes sense.
Quentin
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Hey, Michael! Wanna trade your spiffy new system for my FunkyCam? It's easier to lug around 'cuz you don't have to carry all those heavy pixels.
Eric
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I expect an evangelical report on the actual count of those angels on the head of a pin
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That kind of comment doesn't suit the purpose of the article or the investment it represents.
Just think of the very large panoramic photographs with outstanding depth and clarity this system will enable in places like the California forests and the landscapes of Namibia, to name just two that are relevant here.
This is exciting technology enabling yesterday's dreams - in the right hands - to become today's reality.
I much appreciated the exposition of the logical thinking that went into the construction of this system. The approach explained here is, in a number of ways both technical and financial, even useful to many of us making much less consequential and daunting purchase decisions.
Thanks Michael. Extremely interesting and looking forward to seeing the real meat from the field work.
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I have found that all of my lenses with the exception of the 35mm Rodenstock HR have a big enough image circle to accomplish this without any vignetting, even with the back in the horizontal position, thus yielding a distortion free 2.2:1 aspect ratio image of stunning quality and extreeme enlargability.
Michael, thanks for a fascinating review. I'm also an M679 user, although in my case just with a P25. I was intrigued by your quote above regarding stitching. Has the Linhof sliding back changed since I got mine about three years ago? On my version there's no option to use the P25 in the horizontal position with the sliding back, if you did so it would extend beyond the "film gate". Consequently my ground glass is engraved only for two vertical 37x49mm frames to be stitched together to give a 49x71mm horizontal image.
I have made bigger stitched images, but not with the sliding back. I did it by using the geared movements and produced four shot composites. By the way, I've also found that when the wind gets up the sliding back can become a bit of handful, added to the bag bellows there's about as much wind resistance as you'd find in the average spinnaker!
Incidentally, you mentioned the problem of fitting the Schneider 35mm XL to the M679, they're supposedly releasing a new lens board and mount at Photokina which will allow it to be used on the M679 with infinity focus. Sounds like the holy grail, HR lens performance but with an extended image circle.
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Michael:
First off, my compliments on assembling a truly state-of-the-art DREAM digital imaging system! You will come to LOVE those Rodenstock HR lenses
One comment: In one paragraph, you admit that achieving perfect focus is difficult at best -- and anybody who has shot with high-res digital backs knows what you mean. However, in another you shun the scanning back because of the required tether... I think one issue that should be clarified is the ability to electronically focus while tethered. I assume the P45 has this ability too.
In the case of the BetterLight, the focus software is so sensitive you can see focus change just by applying finger pressure to the camera -- no doubt sensing the slight movement imparted to the camera! I am amazed at how the slightest adjustment to the focus knob -- I am talking the slightest fractional twist -- imparts a direct and visible change to focus. Of course this is as equally valuable a tool to confirm focus when adding tilts or swings to alter the PoF...
Moreover, in the case of the BetterLight software, you can view focus changes in the R, G and B channels independently. What is really surprising is that by using this feature you can actually see in real-time different focus points in the independent R, B and G channels, and thus see that even some of the most popular "APO" lenses are not truly APO!
Cheers,
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Very well thought out and well written article on your path to configuring your ultimate digital capture system, Michael. However, I predict that you will stray from your chosen path and purchase a Hasselblad H1 for your P45 within 3-6 months. Except for obvious applications requiring the use of movements(e.g., architecture), my guess is the Linhof will wind up gathering dust. You will probably find the differences between the Rodenstock glass and the Hasselblad/Fuji glass to be insignificant in even large prints, and the process of setting up, composing , focusing and taking down a large format system will unacceptably cramp your "style" of shooting.
I also think we will see a 50-60 MP back within 18-24 months. The 2006 PMA REport at Let's Go Digital's web site has an interview with Kevin Raber of Phase who intimates as much.
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The P45 and similar backs can be used tethered, and a 100% magnification preview can be seen on-screen within a few seconds of taking a shot.
Working tethered in the field can be a pain, I've done it several times, but it is a joy in the studio.
I will be traveling with my 12" Powerbook and doing some tethered shooting on both the Redwoods and Namibia shoots, but likely not that often. Working with a view camera slows one down enough as it is.
Michael
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Working with a view camera slows one down enough as it is.
True. But that's not necessarily a bad thing
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Howard,
You may be right about the H1 or H2, but the Linhof will be an important tool because of the architectural commission that I wrote about. I've been shooting 4X5" on and off both professionally and personally my entire carear, so it isn't as if I don't know what I'm letting myself in for.
When I'm shooting with Bill Atkinson next week, he'll be using a P45 and a complete compliment of Fuji lenses, so inevitably we'll be doing some side by side comparisons between them and my Rodesnstocks. Film (err... bits) at 11.
Gary – Not sure what the difference bwtween your Linhof back and mine is, but stitches work like a charm with the back in horizontal position. There's a smidge of vignetting at the sides which can either be cropped, or dealt with in Photoshop.
Michael
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Michael, I really enjoyed your latest writing, but I'm left with one question. How durrable is something like that system in the field in less than stellar conditions?
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Congradulations Michael -- and your recent articles are really more
than a joy to read!
We believe you are absolutely right that the limiting factor of the
DSLRs are not the sensors, and nothing compares to the real thing
especially at wide angle.
Wish you some great time shooting with Charlie and Bill, and
the next time you go to China please let me find you some right
connections -- to the local members of the Chinese Photographer
Association -- not the largest (because pear recommondation and
approval is required) but with no question the best, the official,
and the only one to deal with. For examples they will open up
areas for you that are not open to general public, besides many
other things since it is still a contry governed by relationships not
the law. I was in the Yellow Mountains a bit later than your trip
last year and heard a lot of stories.
http://www.chinaphotocenter.com/ (http://www.chinaphotocenter.com/)
Best regards,
Leping Zha
San Mateo, CA, USA
http://www.lepingzha.com (http://www.lepingzha.com)
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Michael, I really enjoyed your latest writing, but I'm left with one question. How durrable is something like that system in the field in less than stellar conditions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How durable is which part?
My P25 was used in rain and snow (including Antarctica) for more than a year without missing a beat.
The Linhof is simply a view camera. Other than tearing a bellow, 9that's what gaffer tae is for) what can break? No instant return mirror, no autodiaphram, no motor, no meter, not nothing. It's simply a hunk of metal and plastic, and a pretty solid one at that.
Large format lenses are, well, lenses. Other than a Copal shutter, no moving parts.
In fact I'd say that this system is likely as rugged for field use as any I've ever had. The sliding back makes it a bit bulky (and can catch the wind, as Gary points out) but that's all.
The biggest danger that I see is losing the expensive KaptureGroup synchro cable (I have a backup).
Michael
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I find it interesting that the Zeiss lenses were not up to snuff and the possibility that the Fuji lenses are.
I look forward to your further writing on the subject.
bob
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Being an artist first and a photographer second (only coming to photography recently) I see the fascination with the “perfect” technique as a stylistic choice and not a 'ne plus ultra'. Raphael vs. Rubens, or perhaps better Van Eyck vs. Fra Angelico. It’s true that the apparatus of camera and lens pushes us towards Van Eyck. But I don’t think any photographer would say that a camera lens sees the same way as the human eye does. So it is an interpretation of reality like any art, and has its ideals like any art. The fact that a certain image from the “Funky” cam was so compelling as to be MR’s best recent image, according to his wife, is indicative that a broader view is necessary. We’re all looking for a great image that will say something special about seeing and life. But does it have to be so wrapped up in a technique of sharpness and resolution and high contrast? This may be the age of the technical. Yet there are plenty of great photographs otherwise.
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Michael
I realize we're entering into the field of psychology but this setup begs the question "how fine a perceptual difference will this equipment make to the viewer of the finished print?" It would be interesting to have "double blind" comparison of prints made with this equipment and say an H1 with P25 back and Canon MkII in exhibition type viewing area by some knowlegeable critics. I realize that this equipment is primarily designed for poster size prints but for the more usual size art photography print will the be a noticeable difference?
Ken
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All I can suggest is that you visit my current exhibition at the Pikto gallery in Toronto. (Runs through the end of March).
Pikto (http://www.pikto.ca/gallery/)
There are 14 large framed prints on the wall, ranging in size from about 18 X 24" to 30 X 36". These are typical print sizes for gallery prints of landscape work.
Thirteen were shot with either a Canon 1Ds MKII or a Canon 5D. The 14th was shot with a Cambo Wide DS, P25 back, and Schneider Digitar lens.
Visit the gallery and tell me which one it is.
I rest my case.
Michael
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Michael
I was there opening night andcouldn't tell when I came up within six inches let alone six feet. As you've stated many times we're reaching a plateau in technology. If there is an exponential cost ( in dollars, time, and effort) for a just noticeable difference in print quality, what is the point? I love the quality of the prints in your exhibition. Could they have been improved upon with this new equipment? That's a rhetorical question we will all have to wait answered at your next exhibition. Thanks for your Herculean effort. Let's hope it doesn't become Sysyphean.
Ken
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Understood.
But, I have to say that since the show opened (and at the opening as well) a great many people have asked about the glacier shot on the back wall, and what was it about it that made it look so different than the others.
Michael
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The P45 and similar backs can be used tethered, and a 100% magnification preview can be seen on-screen within a few seconds of taking a shot.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael: I just re-read this and now have another question: Does your answer above imply the P45 back CANNOT focus in real time? IOW, do you have to shoot, then review for focus?
If so, then it seems to me to be les useful in a thethered situation than I first understood. Real-time focus is a *huge* benefit when adjusting focus, tilts and swings. Review focus can only confirm, not optimise. Moreover, how do you know which direction or even how much to change focus when reviewing, and how many times do you have to capture and review to get it "perfect?"
Obviously perfect focus is not hyper-critical in many landscape situations, but it is in most studio applications, especially when you are trying to extract the maximum potential from your lenses and sensor...
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I'm sick and sad, who going to give me information about p25? I'm going to be sick for another month or so.
No fear. So now Michael, going to be print larger then 13 x 19.
I'm getting crazy here, now I'm sick sad and, crazy. What can I do,what can I do?
BlasR
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No, a P45. nor any medium format back that I'm familar with, can not focus in real time. The chips would simply get too hot.
This is a plus for scanning backs. But with an SB you must shoot tethered, while with a 1 shot back you can if you wish, but it's not manditory.
But,
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No, a P45. nor any medium format back that I'm familar with, can not focus in real time. The chips would simply get too hot.
This is a plus for scanning backs. But with an SB you must shoot tethered, while with a 1 shot back you can if you wish, but it's not manditory.
But,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
FWIW, at least some of the multi-shot capable MF backs like the Sinar and Leaf allow for real-time focus...
For me, this is a significant enough shortcoming with the P45 to have me look at some of the new multi-shot capable offerings. With them, you can shoot single-shot capture, but usually do need at least a small additional device to do so.
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Michael, thanks for the response. That's interesting to know.
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I just put my wife and two cats on eBay. Kidding of course. Having done my time with 4x5 and 8x10, this really excites me.
Nice job of putting together a supurb system Michael.
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but I'm left with one question. How durrable is something like that system in the field in less than stellar conditions?
I only use my M679/P25/6x9 film back for architectural and studio work, so I don't take it anywhere that's not easily accessible by taxi! However, in the last three years it's blown over twice (I now hang a bag from the hook on the tripod's extending column), been dropped in the mud on a Thames embankment, showered with sea spray at Brighton marina, been bounced around in the back of a Land Rover and squashed into the back of endless sports cars, had Christmas decorations stuck all over it by my six year old, and (this being London) been rained on...and on...and on.
And it still keeps coming up smiling and asking for more. I've had Leica M's and Nikon F3's withdraw injured after a lot less.
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In my youth I went on a mountain climbing course in New Zealand ... we don't have any real mountains in Australia. Sitting around a soggy campfire in the valley I was showing off the new climbing boots I'd bought especially, extolling the virtues of these very sturdy, elegant and expensive boots from Austria. The instructor leant over, picked up and weighed the boots and didn't say anything. The next day (and night) we ascended to the glacier and I nearly died from exhaustion despite being about as fit as others in the party. Not long after, the boots got burnt from being placed too close to a fire to dry out and were subsequently tossed. Was it my subconscious that made me do it? :-).
Michael's kit looks very fine and if I had the money to spare (unlikely!) I'd surely buy something similar. Nobody can question the credentials of the component parts. But would I end up actually using it? That's the question. My 4x5 film kit (with tripod) weighs about half of Michael's (presumably without) and even then I consider it a bit of a burden. It does the equivalent of a 70MP grain-free capture (24x30 at 360ppi). Apart from a greater stop range I'm not sure what problems an expensive digital kit like this solves. The depth-of-focus issue looks like a right royal pain. Also I see the means to continually check "what I got" a bit of a distraction. But all this is my perspective. I'll be following this saga to see where it all leads.
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Apart from a greater stop range I'm not sure what problems an expensive digital kit like this solves.
I can only talk from my own experience, the biggest problem with architectural/cityscape photography in Europe is that 95% of potentially great shots are spoiled by a parked delivery van, a thicket of ugly street signs, scaffolding, or a rubbish skip. The real work starts after the shoot, when you have to Photoshop all these distractions away. I've used the same M679 for architectural work for the last three years, with both a 6x9 film back and a P25 digital back. In terms of resolution and image quality from 6x9 or a P25 different people will have their own preferences, but in terms of ease and quality of editing there's just no room for debate, life's about a thousand times better in an all digital environment.
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Does that sliding back cause dust problems?
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Medium format backs don't really have dust problems because you have direct access to the sensor for cleaning at any time (or at least it's cover glass and IR filter).
Just take the back off and rub it on the front of your shirt to clean it off, but do watch out for buttons, they can cause scratches which can only be removed with the use of a fine rubbing compound.
(If anyone quotes me on this I'll scream).
Michael
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(If anyone quotes me on this I'll scream).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quotes you about what?
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My 4x5 film kit (with tripod) weighs about half of Michael's (presumably without) and even then I consider it a bit of a burden. It does the equivalent of a 70MP grain-free capture (24x30 at 360ppi). Apart from a greater stop range I'm not sure what problems an expensive digital kit like this solves. The depth-of-focus issue looks like a right royal pain.
Why do you think it "looks like a right royal pain"?
It is a necessary effect from high resolution and large print size.
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Bear with me while I restate the painfully obvious. I can't help myself.
This article is interesting on several levels. There is the obvious gee-whiz gadgeteer aspect: you gotta admit, a brand spanking new shiny compact view camera with state-of-the-art lenses and digital back. Too cool for school, and gives me a bad case of photon envy.
More seriously, it illustrates the maxim "use the right tool for the job." What seems like an extravagant expenditure for an amateur like me (I couldn't get this past the Finance Committee--aka wife--without major and unspeakable concessions even if I had the dough! ) makes perfect sense for the pro shooting 2000 frames a year and engaged in a three-year architectural commission for which this system is ideal.
With medium format (film OR digital) seemingly in a slow death spiral, and with MF's traditional turf under encroachment from DSLR's below and LF from above, this seems to make perfect sense.
Michael, I'm guessing that your architectural commission is the Brickworks renovation? If so, I can see why you went this route. Wish you'd given me dibs on the 350 Tele-apo-tessar and that P25!
Looking forward to seeing some of your work product!
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Could someone please point me in the direction of Michael's article?
Many thanks.
D.
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www.luminous-landscape.com
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www.luminous-landscape.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks that's very helpful! ;-)
I've been using the search facility here and I can't find it.
Anyone else?
D.
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http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...ital-view.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/digital-view.shtml)
First item on the front page.
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Having followed Michael's gear upgrades for about four years now I found this one somewhat perplexing. Until I got my LL Video Journal and watched the segment on Clyde Butcher. I think Clyde got TO Michael.
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To Michael and other prolific and true artists,
What I admire and enjoy is how you see the world and share it with me and many others. As an admirer of art (no matter wich form), I am very much interested in the various aspects, difficulties and limitations of the medium you have chosen to share your emotions with. Hence, I read this forum and luminous landscape website with great interest, watch you all debate at times with much passion and, may I say, errance. I try to be as studious as one can be, but I must admit (and I accept) that I very often must face my ignorance.
I just want to state all the respect I have for all of you trying to find the best "paint brushes" and the best techniques to use them, but meanwhile never forgetting the meaning of your search: giving me the gift of your sensitivity trough your quest. Had not Michael been able to touch me, this essay would have left me entirely uninterested. As an amateur and mostly an art admirer, I certainly did not grasp half of it's meaning. For some reasons, he has the opportunity to experiment a lot and without too many limitations (financial or other). I can only win.
Michel
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Micheal,
Thanx for article on your new gear, very good reading.
I've looked at the P45 recently, and have to say WOW, but as said before I noticed the corners of the frame with the Blad H series 35mm lens were a bit soft...
But the detail !!
I wonder are all the lucky buggers who get the P45 and H series Blads are going to go through the same pain that us Canon users have with lenses and the 1DS II.
Should make for very interesting reviews in the future.
I think I'll sit on the fence a little longer and wait for the price of the P25 to head south..
It's less critical of my V series lenses, and still amazing..
David.
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It's also an opportunity for you to save money. From now until March 22nd when I return, everything in our store is 15% off. Yes, everything – subscriptions, single issues, renewals, books, portfolios – the works.
I guess the bill is coming due!!
Bob
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Kinda curious how it worked in the field.
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Just got back last night.
The new system worked extreemly well. I'm more than pleased.
I'll have an article about it online by the weekend.
Michael
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I have a few questions on a few subjects...On your Linhof 679 set up, are you getting any color casting during shift/rise/swing, or using wide angle lenses? If so, are you correcting with the Capture One CC profile feature?
I have started using a Cambo Wide DS with a P25 and in my first attempts, the color casting situation is rather frustrating.
Speaking of which, will my P25 work on a Linhof 679 cs camera?
Lastly, with lenses and sliding back etc., the system complete, the price is @ $15k?
Many thanks in advance for any input.
danazoo
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Danazoo, I use a P25 on a Linhof M679 and I have take a correction shot after almost every single exposure and correct using Capture One's CC feature. You might get away without CC work if you're using longer lenses with just a moderate amount of shift, but as soon as there's wider angle lenses and compound movements then you'll need the CC grey card for every shot.
In terms of price, I can't really comment on US prices because I'm a UK photographer, but unfortunately Linhof equipment doesn't come cheap. If you're thinking of buying into the system then I'd advise checking the price of all the accessories that are required to avoid any nasty surprises. One tip that may help you, I had my older 679cc upgraded by Linhof to 679cs specifications at a reasonable price, so you may be able to get a used 679 and have it brought up to date.