Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: gryffyn on February 18, 2006, 07:41:52 am

Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 18, 2006, 07:41:52 am
I was just curious, since the PMA is around the corner. If Epson is planning a model upgrade for the 4800, this would be the logical time for them to announce it.

Lots of folks have complained loud and long about the ink cost of switching between matte and glossy inks....so I wonder if Epson is planning to recitify what I consider the only negative "feature" of the 4800.

Why do I speculate on a new model?  Vistek (in Toronto) has a special on 4800's right now....$200 off list PLUS $400 instant Epson manufacturer's rebate, which brings the price of the 4800 a shade under two grand Canadian.  The $400 rebate might presage an updated model and be an attempt to clear the decks of older inventory prior to the PMA announcements.  

I'm tempted, but not if Epson is going to release a revised version with the ink-switch issue fixed.

Oh....discount only available till March 1st....another "suspicious" tidbit, non?

Or maybe Mark S has bribed Epson to release a new model, so he can twiddle his economic analysis spreadsheets some more, rather than go out and take photos?  

Inquiring minds want to know....
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: michael on February 18, 2006, 08:54:06 am
Of course anyhting is possible, but since the entire X8 line of printers is less than a year old the likelyhood of them being replaced any time soon is very small.

If Epson sticks to their schedule it'll be at least 18 months to 2 years till we see a replacement for the 4800.

Michael
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 18, 2006, 09:47:11 am
Michael, when you consider that the interval between the 4000 and the 4800 was about a year, it does raise a question about whether there is any such thing any longer as a "normal interval" for anything in the imaging industry.

Perhaps you are right however - having done it once and given the flack it generated, as well as the fact that the market is still digesting K3, maybe the pace of model introduction will slow a bit relative to this most recent experience.

I suspect that the price discount may be more related to the competition Epson is starting to face in this market niche, and who knows, but perhaps inventories of these machines are somewhat higher than they were anticipating.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 18, 2006, 04:25:06 pm
I think Michaels projections are more likely to be right. The 4000 was an aberration. It filled a gap in the range that was long overdue and paved the way for the 800 series. Epson is still selling the latest printers briskly and a change now makes little sense. Users have quietened down on the PK/MK problem . The printers are relatively cheap and if you are printing on a lot of photo and matte art  papers it is best to bite bullet and buy that second printer. For most photographers Photo Black has significant advantages over Matte Black especially with Crane Silver Rag about to be released, and at least two rivals probably at about the same time. Keep watching BreathingColor and Hahnemuhle sites. Epson's next wide format move? Who knows. I'll put 2c on the table for a 60" 800 printer to take on the next section of the market dominated by Roland, Mutoh and others.
For what it's worth
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 18, 2006, 04:41:32 pm
Brian, when you say PK has significant advantages over MK, are you thinking only in the context of RC media, or for Enhanced Matte as well. I was given to understand that PK is not meant for matte and won't be too satisfying in that territory. I haven't tested it because the tank change cost is pretty steep. have you had or do you know of any good experience using PK on matte?
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 18, 2006, 04:42:48 pm
Quote
Of course anyhting is possible, but since the entire X8 line of printers is less than a year old the likelyhood of them being replaced any time soon is very small.

I agree....but they might come out with a slightly improved "4800b" and not call it a new model but a minor mid-lifespan improvement.

I'ld be willing to pay a bit more to have the matte/glossy switchover cost issue resolved before I spring for a 4800.  And if not, the 4800 at under $2K is sounding very attractive nonetheless.

We'll know in a week or two, I suppose!
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 18, 2006, 04:55:04 pm
Based on a report about the Epson Print Academy Dallas that a subscriber attended (see Rob Galbraith website) this issue was discussed and it appears that Epson has no inexpensive way of reconfiguring the 4800 to resolve the ink-switching matter. That info suggests that hardware solutions involve expensive re-design and a considerably costlier printer. This means that if they are going to address ink-switching all within a 4800 context, it would be through a change of ink chemistry and/or software or firmware - i.e. going the route that ImagePrint did. If they did that it could be good news for 4800 owners who could then do an up-grade without a hardware change. But again, let us see................
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 18, 2006, 05:32:43 pm
Quote
This means that if they are going to address ink-switching all within a 4800 context, it would be through a change of ink chemistry and/or software or firmware - i.e. going the route that ImagePrint did. If they did that it could be good news for 4800 owners who could then do an up-grade without a hardware change. But again, let us see................

Or they could drop the price by 50%, and then I can buy two...one for matte and one for glossy!  But I'ld have to reinforce the floor to carry that much weight! ;-)
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 19, 2006, 06:26:51 pm
Mark, I was thinking mainly re photo type paper and in particular for B&W where the entire K3 inkset excells. This includes the LLK. which is why I would not use the Phatte system. I have not used Enhanced Matte .I should give it a go. I mentioned in an earlier thread that I was testing a number of different papers. I have been doing this with a special chart devised by Les Walkling and analysed by him. So far I have printed on a number of fine art matte type papers including BreathingColor Stirling , Crane Museo and a number of papers from Cartiere Magnani, Hahnemuhle, Arches, Canson, Lana , St Cuthberts Mill and Awagami. So far none of these produce an acceptable black or low zone separation using the Photo Black. For mid key colour images  many of these papers produce very acceptable results with PK. FWIW most landscape photographers I print with seem to prefer the photo type papers like Epson Premium Lustre or Semigloss. At the moment I see 2 printers as the only solution for a number of reasons.
Since Epson was able to solve the PK/MK problem with the 4000, I am not entirely convinced a similar solution using  9 inks would excessively elevate the cost of a modified machine. I wouldn't care if I had to attach the ninth ink container with a tap screwed on cradle on the side of my 9800.
When the inevitable replacements to the 800 series do come out the new sales talk will be very interesting.
All this aside the new printers , with the new inks and software are amazing. We would be churlish indeed not to acknowledge probably the best fine print technology ever. Bar none.
Cheers Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
PS Yes I have printed Platinum, Calotype ,Ciba,  Dye transfer, Tri colour carbon and most of the others.
I'd still like a bash at Collotype though
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 19, 2006, 08:14:34 pm
Thanks Brian, that is very helpful information.

By the way, Epson did not truly solve the problem with the 4000. People printing with RC media were complaining bitterly about gloss differential and bronzing, and I believe that is why with the 4800 they developed both the third black (also to kill the last vestiges of metarism) and the switchable ink for the matte versus non-matte papers, fully knowing it is not an ideal solution.

I can't help thinking that one of these days in the not too distant future we'll have a generation of printers that will handle this without the ink waste, but they probably just haven't hatched the solution yet at an acceptable price point for the market.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 20, 2006, 02:52:09 pm
Agreed Mark,
The metamerism on the Ultrachrome (K2) inks was appalling in my view,  made even worse by the long curing time. On critical work I had to wait overnight before I could make corrections. Not only did colourchange, but the amount of metamerism changed as the cyan reacted differently to the near infrared. With K3, metamerism is negligible and curing is only about 30 minutes , depending on temperature and humidity.
The third black (LLK) assists greatly in highlght smoothness, especially in greyscale renderings.
Gloss differential has not disappeared though. It is still obvious on very high gloss substrates such as Pictorico high gloss film. A surface coating such as the glop solution could be the answer to this. The present glop used by Epson has been reported as the normal ink carrier without the ink. An improvement would be the adding of some sort of flexible hardener to protect at least gloss surfaces from abrasion .
In this scenario there would be 10 tanks, 9 colours including PK and MK, and a clear glossy suface coating. I would presume 5 on each side to keep things pretty.
The other big improvement, which would be much more difficult, would be a new yellow with greater fade resistance. Currently the yellow has the weakest archival properties by far.
Prophesy though, is a precarious profession, only made possible by the fallibility of human memory.
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: tjanik on February 20, 2006, 03:27:30 pm
Brian:

Could you please expand or explain the following in your post:

"but the amount of metamerism changed as the cyan reacted differently to the near infrared. "

I don't understand how IR is affecting color.  Thanks,

Tom
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 20, 2006, 04:33:57 pm
Tom,
Manufacturers of dyes and pigments try to produce products that emit much the same bunch of wavelengths independant of the spectral distribution  incident on them. Normally this is analagous to a filter. A cyan filter does not let red light through and with incident white light  what we see is what is left ie blue and green =cyan. Sometimes one incident wavelength  causes vibrations within the dye molecule that results in a colour different to the incident colour to be emitted. This often occurs with ultraviolet causing fluorescence. In the case of the Ultrachrome K2 cyan, it seems that invisible infrared is changed to visible red. Depending on the amount of infrared present  magenta/green metamerism results. The lower the colour temperature  eg if prints are observed under tungsten light rather than daylight, the greater the relative proportion of infrared. I'm sure someone from the secret Epson ink factory knows a lot more about it, but they are probably sworn to silence.
All I really know is that the green magenta shift drove me crazy when printing late at night and then checking the prints in the morning and that the new inks (K3) do not have the problem .
HTH
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: tsjanik on February 22, 2006, 01:52:44 pm
Brian:

Thanks you for your response.  Can you direct me to a reference or source for this information?  I have an interest in this outside of photography and don't wish to hijack the forum

Thanks,

 Tom
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Schewe on February 23, 2006, 01:43:15 am
Quote
I'm sure someone from the secret Epson ink factory knows a lot more about it, but they are probably sworn to silence.

In point of fact, the metameric failures with the original UltraChrome as with the previous archival inks that came before was due to the yellow ink...not cyan. The yellow, under tungsten went warm and under daylight went cool. If you look at where yellow ink is in the spectrum you'll see that yellow can go in either direction, towards red or towards green and that's what happened to yellow under different spectral stimulus.

That's why ColorByte's Image Print used no yellow ink in their B&W rip solution...and why that helped reduce or eliminate metameric failure.

The yellow ink (in fact all the inks except Matte K) where changed with K3 and yellow, in particular was substantially improved.

And yes, the 4000 printer was released LATE in the product cycle of the original UltraChrome ink cycles and the 4800 was early in the K3 release cycle. The 78/9800 printers only started shipping in numbers in Oct of 05.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 23, 2006, 09:25:11 am
Jeff, what you are saying about the role of yellow ink corroborates exactly what we learned here in Toronto at a ColorByte seminar presentation. And I well remember the fuss a number of people made about the 4000>4800 product cycle, not stopping to calculate that the economic difference between releasing a product six months sooner or later is really no big deal, and in fact can be advantageous on several fronts. One can speculate about why ColorByte hit on the yellow ink issue and Phatte Black but Epson did not (cudos for Colorbyte, but had Epson done it without a RIP the solution would have been most likely cheaper). Now that Canon is supposed to be releasing a printer with pigmented inks in 10 and 12 colour configuration, it will be most interesting to see whether some real competition to the Epson lead in the X800 range is starting to happen.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 23, 2006, 10:13:55 am
Quote
Now that Canon is supposed to be releasing a printer with pigmented inks in 10 and 12 colour configuration, it will be most interesting to see whether some real competition to the Epson lead in the X800 range is starting to happen.

Very interesting, Mark.  I'ld love to see a 4800b with 10 ink slots.  Simultaneous matte/glossy inks plus a gloss varnish cartridge.  Youza!  That would be one heck of a printer.

We'll find out in a few days if Epson grants my wishes at PMA!  Fingers crossed...
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 23, 2006, 04:56:42 pm
Thanks Jeff. I will check with the source of the cyan info. It was given to me with some authority.
The other problem with yellow is (if my information is correct!),that it fades the fastest and that goes for the current yellow too
.
 I really don't understand how the ColorByte B&W solution works. If adding  Y neutralises a presumed bluish caste then how can adding M & C? Obviously there is something I am not getting.

Epson did have a Phatte solution for the 4000, but must have considered it better to have a LLK ink in the 800 series. I do not think the removal of this ink is a good idea at all.

I'm waiting for Epson to look at a 12 ink printer like the Roland D'Vinci. I think they will, but not at PMA '06.

Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 23, 2006, 05:15:21 pm
Brian, what I recall hearing ColorByte tell us is that they DELETED Yellow for the B&W, not added it.

The 4000 was not a Phatte solution - people complained like h**l about gloss differential and bronzing with 4000 prints done on non-matte media; from what I understand, this is why they decided to go for the MK or PK approach on the 4800, once they decided to produce the up-grade at about the same price point as the 4000.

Now, if Canon has resolved this issue with more inks at the same price point, either there is something else their machines don't do, or they have one-up on Epson. Will be interesting to see once we know more.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Schewe on February 23, 2006, 08:22:17 pm
Quote
I really don't understand how the ColorByte B&W solution works. If adding  Y neutralises a presumed bluish caste then how can adding M & C? Obviously there is something I am not getting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yellow can either go warm or cool depending on the spctral output of the light. If tungsten, it goes warm (red) under daylight it goes green-so you can neutralize for only one light source-hense the metameric failure.

ImagePrint used NO yesllow ink in their B&W rip so the metameric failure due to yellow was eliminated. UltraChrome Magenta and Cyan (and the light versions) had only a tiny bit of metamerica failure-which has been further reduced in K3. Warm tint took advantage of the fact that Epson's blacks are already real warm...

The Advanced B&W mode of the 4/7/9800 series also uses almost no yellow ink-only a tiny amount of cyan amd magenta to do tinting. The upside is that print longevity for Advanced B&W mode goes WAY up. Up to 300 years with certain papers-as good of not better than silver.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Brian Gilkes on February 24, 2006, 03:38:59 am
Quote
Brian, what I recall hearing ColorByte tell us is that they DELETED Yellow for the B&W, not added it.


Yes, true. I meant Epson had the Y, but ColorByte used the opposite ie M & C. This seemed odd to me ie you need to need to go up to get something but someone else gets it by climbing down. Both start from the same point. 

The 4000 was not a Phatte solution - people complained like h**l about gloss differential and bronzing with 4000 prints done on non-matte media; from what I understand, this is why they decided to go for the MK or PK approach on the 4800, once they decided to produce the up-grade at about the same price point as the 4000.

True , me too. It did enable switching from matte to gloss or/and vice versa without wasting heaps if ink.

Now, if Canon has resolved this issue with more inks at the same price point, either there is something else their machines don't do, or they have one-up on Epson. Will be interesting to see once we know more.

Canon linearisation has been a problem in the past. New Canon printers were expected last year, so perhaps the extra time has gone into something that a pro might use. We'll see. Then they might bring out a big mother. That could bring the ink price down.
Cheers
Brian
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 24, 2006, 10:33:00 am
Canon just announced a 12 colour (yes a full dozen!) 17" pro printer.  Press release on DPR can be found here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022405canonipf5000.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022405canonipf5000.asp)

That makes an announcement of a 4800 upgrade even more likely in my opinion.  If not next week at PMA, then sometime this spring or summer probably.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 24, 2006, 11:13:37 am
Gryffyn, HP is also announcing new stuff. The contest for the pro printing market is growing, which is great for us consumers - more competition and more choice. But you can't necessarily assume that one company operates simply in reaction to what the next guy is doing. They all know what the market wants - or they create needs in the market, and they work in parallel to provide their own solutions. So it is an on-going horse race, and new models come out in their own time. Maybe Epson will produce a 4800 up-grade within the next 6 months or so, but it won't necessarily be in response to Canon's - it will be because they are ready with something they think is better than the model they are replacing and they have assessed the commercial aspect of market timing.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 24, 2006, 11:32:19 am
Quote
But you can't necessarily assume that one company operates simply in reaction to what the next guy is doing.

True, there are other factors at work, but it's likely that Epson knew or had predictions of what Canon just announced and what is coming from HP.  Don't need much of a crystal ball for that one.    Which means they've been working on the next printer model for some time now.

However, I don't entirely agree with your comments. Market share in a product segment that looks like it's headed towards commoditization and heavy competition (which the high end print market is rapidly moving towards with Canon/HP's recent moves) is virtually everything.  If you don't protect your market share, which Epson has right now but is coming under pressure, then typically you're playing a losing hand.

I think Epson, as the market segment leader, will be forced to respond in reaction to Canon and HP attacking their high end printer market in earnest.  Sooner rather than later.

That's the way of the high-tech world.

Time will prove which one of us is right.  And if it's me, it won't take much time at all.  
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 24, 2006, 12:02:41 pm
We're splitting hairs - of course they are all watching eachother, and I have no doubt they are all working as feverishly as they can to stay ahead of the pack and either protect or gain market share. I think we're agreed they are working in parallel and any one of them start working on the next model either very soon after or most likely before release of the current one, and when the technical/commercial times comes to release the next printer they will. More grist for the mill.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 28, 2006, 01:06:09 pm
Well...doesn't look like Epson will be announcing any 4800 tweaks at PMA, or they would have already done so.

So now the question is if they'll wait till Photokina this fall or if we'll hear something sooner than that?

Any bets? ;-)
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 28, 2006, 01:50:55 pm
No bets. I don't have enough data to measure the odds!

But they're in a bit of a bind. (1) Competition is lapping at their market share (good thing). (2) They took a beating for issuing the 4800 so soon after the 4000 because alot of people think only about sunk costs and not about incremental benefits - you need a real forward-looking mentality not to go bananas with this business and many people aren't there yet, so there is an acceptability issue - which didn't restrain them in the past so maybe they'll ignore it in future. (3) The next printer really MUST solve the ink switching business, because with these super new coated papers hitting the market people will want this capability without having to buy ImagePrint, and we don't know how long it will take them to finishing cracking that issue - which surprises me, because it didn't take ColorByte all that long to produce Phatte Black. I guess what I'm saying here - if they don't have a chemical solution that can be accommodated within eight cartridges they are into a whole major re-design and re-tooling of everything.

It will be interesting to see what and when.
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: gryffyn on February 28, 2006, 01:55:36 pm
Quote
It will be interesting to see what and when.

Digital technology in photography does have it's downsides, and one of those is more rapid product cycles and obsolescence.  So it goes...anyone in the IT business is used to that.

Reminds me of the Chinese proverb/curse:  "May you live in interesting times".  
Title: 4800 upgrade imminenet?
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 28, 2006, 02:59:33 pm
Andzej, objectively I don't think there's much of a "downside", but subjectively there can be. It's dynamic and exciting, and the creative potential and quality just keeps growing by leaps and bounds. The downside aspect depends on one's approach to it, and to avoid it being a downer requires a very deliberate strategy about when and why to be at the bleeding edge of this or that.