Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: Gwilly on February 13, 2006, 03:45:36 pm

Title: On PC
Post by: Gwilly on February 13, 2006, 03:45:36 pm
Does anyone have any knowledge when Lightroom will be available on the PC platform?
Title: On PC
Post by: Schewe on February 13, 2006, 08:08:16 pm
Yes...
Title: On PC
Post by: KeithR on February 14, 2006, 09:28:48 pm
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Yes...
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Mr. Schewe
Or do we call you the Great and powerful OZ?
Could you give us poor PC users an idea of how long before we get to play with Adobes new toy? I don't know about other PC users that utilize PSCS2 and ACR, but after reading about Lightroom, I for one would love to try it out.
Title: On PC
Post by: Schewe on February 14, 2006, 10:00:47 pm
George Jardine from Adobe indicated, on the Adobe.labs site that the Windows version will be some time this summer...
Title: On PC
Post by: Davidk on February 14, 2006, 11:22:04 pm
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Yes...
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Not quite sure if you're trying to be funny, or a j**k.  Either way, why bother with  an answer such as this?    Davidk
Title: On PC
Post by: macgyver on February 14, 2006, 11:49:13 pm
Summer eh?  Ouch.  I would like to say I'm sad, but after years of taking abuse for using a mac, I'm not sure I can muster the sadness.
Title: On PC
Post by: Schewe on February 15, 2006, 12:48:37 am
I answered the question asked...and if one were to spend some time on Adobe.Labs (http://labs.macromedia.com/technologies/lightroom/), the answer from George would have been noted...
Title: On PC
Post by: Pelao on February 15, 2006, 07:46:21 am
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Yes...
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While I understand people being impatient for the WIN version, I can also understand that anyone that does know the answer cannot release it for commercial reasons.

presumably Adobe have to write it for Vista, which is still being developed - this may complicate the process a bit.
Title: On PC
Post by: canlogic on February 15, 2006, 08:14:26 am
I have read through the threads at the lab site and he says they are not waiting for the next version of Windows and that the windows version will be available soon. I didn't see any reference to it not comeing until the summer.
Title: On PC
Post by: JJP on February 15, 2006, 08:23:59 am
IMO, Adobe should have waited and released BOTH Beta versions (MAC & PC) at the same time.  Letting us PC users taste Lightroom with the tip of our tongues, then pulling it away is dirty play if you ask me.
jules
Title: On PC
Post by: canlogic on February 15, 2006, 09:43:03 am
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IMO, Adobe should have waited and released BOTH Beta versions (MAC & PC) at the same time.  Letting us PC users taste Lightroom with the tip of our tongues, then pulling it away is dirty play if you ask me.
jules
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It's obvious they pushed it out because of Aperture, although I am sure they say it had nothing to do with that. I guess if they could persuade people not to shell out $500 now but to wait for Lightroom they were saving some customers down the road. I guess alot of people would not buy both and once commited would stick with what they have. Gates did the same thing with Windows when the first Mac came out and it worked for him. In the end it will only be better for the users as they strive to outdo each other.
Title: On PC
Post by: Pelao on February 15, 2006, 10:26:27 am
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It's obvious they pushed it out because of Aperture, although I am sure they say it had nothing to do with that. I guess if they could persuade people not to shell out $500 now but to wait for Lightroom they were saving some customers down the road. I guess alot of people would not buy both and once commited would stick with what they have. Gates did the same thing with Windows when the first Mac came out and it worked for him. In the end it will only be better for the users as they strive to outdo each other.
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This seems reasonable. Of course Lightroom was being developed for some time, but it's initial Beta release was surely a response to Aperture. Just look what happened to Adobe with Final Cut - Apple has taken a big piece of Adobe's share. Adobe has learned. They also know that with the rapid growth of DSLR and other RAW capable cameras that there is a new, large market appearing. For most things this market will not need CS2 and it's successors. Other companies also know that this market is growing and there are now an increasing number of photo editing options out there. Adobe needs to hang on to the market it has, and extend it into the new niches.

Launching LR as a Beta was incredibly smart. A lot of pros are on Macs, and would seriously consider Aperture - once they move, they rarely come back. This way, not only are they aware of Adobe's product, but with it being a Beta they are involved, and through the forums there is a sense of community. So the app has momentum and loyalty long before release. Good marketing.

This will have hit Aperture very hard.
Title: On PC
Post by: KeithR on February 15, 2006, 08:53:26 pm
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George Jardine from Adobe indicated, on the Adobe.labs site that the Windows version will be some time this summer...
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Thanks for the info. Hope it's an early summer....
Title: On PC
Post by: jlmwyo on April 19, 2006, 12:08:13 am
I'll tell you what, after listening to all the Podcasts and watching the various tutorial vid's available, I can't WAIT for the Win beta to come out. Really really really can't wait.

I hope it's soon. Really  
Title: On PC
Post by: canlogic on April 26, 2006, 09:24:55 am
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I'll tell you what, after listening to all the Podcasts and watching the various tutorial vid's available, I can't WAIT for the Win beta to come out. Really really really can't wait.

I hope it's soon. Really 
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Now that Aperture 1.1 is out Adobe will have to do some major work before it is a competitor. I use both and I find that Apertures conversion is at least the equal to Lightroom and with all the other features Aperture is way ahead.
Title: On PC
Post by: DarkPenguin on April 26, 2006, 11:26:37 am
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Now that Aperture 1.1 is out Adobe will have to do some major work before it is a competitor. I use both and I find that Apertures conversion is at least the equal to Lightroom and with all the other features Aperture is way ahead.
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They just need to come out with a windows version.  Which, apparently, is major work.
Title: On PC
Post by: David Mantripp on May 04, 2006, 04:14:21 pm
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Launching LR as a Beta was incredibly smart. A lot of pros are on Macs, and would seriously consider Aperture - once they move, they rarely come back. This way, not only are they aware of Adobe's product, but with it being a Beta they are involved, and through the forums there is a sense of community. So the app has momentum and loyalty long before release. Good marketing.

This will have hit Aperture very hard.
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Well I don't know about that. The momentum behind LR seems to have died off, and to be honest, there isn't so much to Beta 2 beyond a pretty file browser and an alternative set of controls for ACR.  I keep finding things that just annoy me... I suppose there are solutions, but I haven't got the energy to spend all day on Adobe forums... for example, how the &%ç%% do you turn off the abysmal "Lightroom Default" ?  Why does Adobe insist on pushing some programmers idea of what looks nice on us (as in ACR, as well ?).  First thing I have to do with every image is set the "flat" profile. Second, why are the ratings options so meek, and why can't I see them in the thumbnail strip in the Develop pane ?

LR seems a very lightweight application to me - a true successor to Kai's Soap.  Maybe there will be DAM tools. Maybe there will be better interplay with Photoshop. Maybe there will be more powerful batch processing. But up to now, only the best efforts of the Adobe fanboys, propagandists and Lightroom cottage industry wannabees are keeping up the notion that LR is way better than Aperture. Actually, LR is to Aperture as ACDSee is to Photoshop.  So it has a sense of community. Wonderful. That makes up for a lack of features, I guess. Pah. Emperors and lack of clothes come to mind.

Regardless, I still see no compelling reason to move to either from CaptureOne / Photoshop / iView MediaPro
Title: On PC
Post by: michael on May 04, 2006, 04:40:06 pm
Come on David. Don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel.  

Michael
Title: On PC
Post by: David Mantripp on May 04, 2006, 04:58:52 pm
Well I've been one to go with the (work)flow....

Or for that matter consistent.  But I have just spent rather a long time using LR, and despite finding it useful, I still don't get that paradigm shifting feeling.  Still, that's why we have options.
Title: On PC
Post by: canlogic on May 09, 2006, 09:58:41 pm
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Well I've been one to go with the (work)flow....

Or for that matter consistent.  But I have just spent rather a long time using LR, and despite finding it useful, I still don't get that paradigm shifting feeling.  Still, that's why we have options.
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Have to agree on this. I have been useing both and LR is not in the same league at all. I am even finding that conversions from my 1dmkii and 5d are better in Aperture than LR. It is subjective of course. Not that I am against LR and fully expect to purchase a copy for my Windows notebook.
Title: On PC
Post by: gehle on May 10, 2006, 09:48:48 pm
Here is my guess of when LR for the PC will appear:

The MAC version expires at the end of June and since Summer starts June 21st, I am guessing that we will see both a new MAC Beta as well as the PC Beta before the end of June.

Just my guess when I add all the "little hints" together.

I can't wait 'cause I don't own a MAC  
Title: On PC
Post by: jlmwyo on May 15, 2006, 03:35:21 am
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Here is my guess of when LR for the PC will appear:

The MAC version expires at the end of June and since Summer starts June 21st, I am guessing that we will see both a new MAC Beta as well as the PC Beta before the end of June.

Just my guess when I add all the "little hints" together.

I can't wait 'cause I don't own a MAC 
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I'm waiting too. Put it out allready  
Title: On PC
Post by: AdrianW on May 16, 2006, 08:29:21 am
Ironic really, instead of trying to battle with Apple - they could have had the huge PC marketplace to themselves.

I'm almost hoping someone else will steal that market whilst we wait for Adobe to get their collective digit out ;)
Title: On PC
Post by: David Mantripp on May 17, 2006, 04:31:36 pm
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Ironic really, instead of trying to battle with Apple - they could have had the huge PC marketplace to themselves.

I'm almost hoping someone else will steal that market whilst we wait for Adobe to get their collective digit out
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well you could take a look at Lightzone while you're waiting, then....
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 01, 2006, 01:04:13 pm
I don't know if the rumours are right (and I don't often believe rumours) but I have heard on various forums that the Windows version will NOT be the BETA 3 version!  In other words at some point in June (so I am lead to beleive) the MAC version will go to BETA3 and but the PC version will be released and potentialy have a lot less features!  

Please Please Please someone tell me this is not true otherwise this really is another  'kick in the teeth' for PC users.  

I appreciate that many pros are on Mac's but lets be honest about this, there are a lot more folk using PC's than Mac's.  

I also appreciate that this is a BETA version of software and lets face it is an unprecidented step forward in software design by making it a beta public,  but by exluding the PC community for so long in the 'listening' process of a beta this must be considered to be a wee bit of an insult!   Without being to use the product how can you really comment on what you want to see in the finished version?!

Sorry for the rant folks but I am just a bit frustrated by what I am hearing and keen to get a beta to have a look at (and hopefully someone in the know will put me in my place  

JD
Title: On PC
Post by: GlennP on June 07, 2006, 09:48:50 am
If you read the latest here on Luminous Landscape you will see that the Beta 3 is also for windows. Take heart
Title: On PC
Post by: pvonk on June 07, 2006, 11:00:34 am
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I appreciate that many pros are on Mac's but lets be honest about this, there are a lot more folk using PC's than Mac's. 

I think a lot of people forget this is a "beta" - it's intended to get feedback from users, and in this case, people who live and breathe photography.  My impression is that most of these folks are Mac users, so it would make sense to target them.  

- Pierre
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on June 07, 2006, 11:00:39 am
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I also appreciate that this is a BETA version of software and let's face it is an unprecedented step forward in software design by making it a beta public,  but by exluding the PC community for so long in the 'listening' process of a beta this must be considered to be a wee bit of an insult!   Without being to use the product how can you really comment on what you want to see in the finished version?!
Calm down, Lightroom's like a new pharmaceutical drug that they're testing on Mac users (listen to the screams) before letting it loose on the majority market.

John
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 09, 2006, 11:54:17 am
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I think a lot of people forget this is a "beta" - it's intended to get feedback from users, and in this case, people who live and breathe photography.  My impression is that most of these folks are Mac users, so it would make sense to target them. 

- Pierre
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Glad to here Michaels statement about Beta3.

Sorry Peirre but I strongly disagree with your statement.  

What evidence did you base this on??

There are many many many more PC users out in the big wide world than Mac users by quite a long way- and belive me many of these are photographers (both pro and ametuer alike)

Please do not get me wrong - I like the Mac (it has both pros and cons) and have no intention of staring yet another PC v MAC debate, but for many users the jump across to a Mac from a PC just far too expensive (Mac's are still overpriced IMHO).   Also the software would cost thousands of notes to replace.

Anyway - back to the original thread - looking forward to the arrival of Lightroom beta 3...

JD
Title: On PC
Post by: pvonk on June 09, 2006, 06:18:32 pm
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Glad to here Michaels statement about Beta3.

Sorry Peirre but I strongly disagree with your statement. 

What evidence did you base this on??

There are many many many more PC users out in the big wide world than Mac users by quite a long way- and belive me many of these are photographers (both pro and ametuer alike)

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I've owned PCs since the first IBM PC.  Two years ago I bought a Mac, but still use PCs and now also use Linux machines (I teach CS).  While I'm an amature digital photographer, I do spend a lot of time reading newsgroups, and over the years I've dabbled in Photoshop and other similar tools and have a bookshelf of manuals on their use.  I've talked to the art professors on campus who do photography as well as student majors who focus on graphic arts and photography.  I can't point you to a definitive survey, but (as a then PC user) I was always taken aback when the majority of writers, users, students, etc. were Mac users.  (At least that was my perception.)  It was as if I suddenly found myself in the minority - a strange feeling!

Yes, there are many more PC owners out there, but the Mac was definitely the machine of choice for graphic arts and, appearantly, photographers a number of years ago (just read any older book on graphics and you'll see) - although that distribution has been shifting in recent years.

An aside- usage trends in colleges:

As for trends among the college youth - many years ago, the distribution of Mac vs PC users was about 50-50% on our campus, and reports were similar from other institutions.  Then the Mac took a nosedive (which was fine by me - at the time I felt having one universal platform would make life much easier - so you can say I was a PC zealot).  But in recent years, I've noticed a surge back to the Mac among our students.  This has been backed up by our IT department, which keeps records of platform use and connections to the campus backbone.  Especially in the computer science program, I now find a clear majority of students using Macs - which posed a problem for us, since the software used in our courses was PC based - in fact our lab was a Wintel lab.  With the switch to Java, we now use multi-platform software and this has solved problems our students had.  I'm told the campus distribution is now about 40-60% in favor of PCs, quite a resurrection for the Mac.  Not only that, but many CS students who own PCs are running Linux on them.  This year we opened our second departmental lab - a Linux lab, which is used in the CS program.  (The rest of campus has a mix of PC and Mac public labs.)  So much for a universal platform.

Why did I switch to the Mac?  It runs Unix.  

- Pierre
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on June 10, 2006, 02:58:49 am
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I'm told the campus distribution is now about 40-60% in favor of PCs, quite a resurrection for the Mac.

This is pretty much the same distribution as I'd estimated from the number of postings to the Adobe forums for Photoshop and Bridge - 60+% PC, 40% Mac. So it's pretty reasonable that Adobe would have sound commerical reasons to launch their defence against Aperture on the Mac platform first. Perhaps JD, if you're looking for an insult you should find it from Apple who released a program that fails to run on most computers?

John
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 12, 2006, 06:06:44 am
Pierre
it is interesting what you have said regarding the Mac.  May I ask are you based in th U.S. ?  I think the Mac has not taken off quite a s much in the UK and was prodominantly the realm of the professional Graphics business.  They are notoriously expensive in the UK (as it evrything!) and most people over the years have favoured the PC with the cost being a major factor.  That means that many photographers (with a mjority coming from film) will probably most likely own a PC, at least in the UK anyway.  That being said the Mac is startig to sell over here now, especially the iMac.  The G5 though is still far too expensive for most people. (especially if you want the same specs as a pc).

johnbeardy

Yes I can see why Apple would hae sound comercial reson to launch a Mac beta perhaps before the PC beta but doing so quite a long way in advance of the Windows beta in my expepriece I think is a marketing mistake.  As I say its just my opinion.  

Hopefully they will relase the beat 3 for both versions at the same time.

JD
Title: On PC
Post by: David White on June 13, 2006, 01:01:37 am
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If you read the latest here on Luminous Landscape you will see that the Beta 3 is also for windows. Take heart
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WRONG!  Beta 3 is out and for Mac only.  I've been holding off, but I guess it is time to go shopping for other front ends.  Adobe is obviously not interested in PC users.
Title: On PC
Post by: Schewe on June 13, 2006, 01:22:04 am
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Adobe is obviously not interested in PC users.
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Wrong. . .it's simple, the Windows version of Beta 3 (and there is one) is not done...when it's ready, Adobe will release it. Reading ANYTHING ELSE into this is simple speculation (do you hear black helocopters fly by? Do you wear tin foil to keep out gamma rays?)

:~)
Title: On PC
Post by: David White on June 13, 2006, 01:38:11 am
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Wrong. . .it's simple, the Windows version of Beta 3 (and there is one) is not done...when it's ready, Adobe will release it. Reading ANYTHING ELSE into this is simple speculation (do you hear black helocopters fly by? Do you wear tin foil to keep out gamma rays?)

:~)
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Ever hear of parallel development?

I only hear black helicopters when our Red congressman makes a press release.  
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 13, 2006, 04:08:02 am
BETA 3 is now out for the Mac...but no Windows?

This really is not 'Cricket' chaps!

I have been in marketing for some years now and must say that this is not a good exercise in PR!  (I also work for a software company)

I will not loose sight that this is actualya Beta and that Adobe don't have to release this software before the final code.  

But come on folks at Adobe- pull ya finger out and get a beta out for Windows please, even if it is only beta 1!  

Windows folk have lost 4 months of design input, so no wonder they are a bit sore.
Title: On PC
Post by: jlmwyo on June 13, 2006, 04:14:40 am
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BETA 3 is now out for the Mac...but no Windows?

This really is not 'Cricket' chaps!

I have been in marketing for some years now and must say that this is not a good exercise in PR!  (I also work for a software company)

I will not loose sight that this is actualya Beta and that Adobe don't have to release this software before the final code. 

But come on folks at Adobe- pull ya finger out and get a beta out for Windows please, even if it is only beta 1! 

Windows folk have lost 4 months of design input, so no wonder they are a bit sore.
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That IS the rub for me, lost time for input design. When I saw that B3 was out today I was all excited, until I saw the "Mac Only" disclaimer.

Sigh! I guess its because I'm so excited to try the damn thing
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on June 13, 2006, 04:27:10 am
I can't believe this. Photographers' disapproval should be directed at companies like Apple for bringing out programs that only work on a minority of computers, not at Adobe for making a perfectly sensible commercial decision to defend a market segment. Sure Adobe are losing a few months of the design input of the majority of potential users, but they've clearly stated they will release a beta for Windows as soon as it's ready. Fine.

In the meantime, try out all the other programs that are out there. Try Lightzone, CaptureOne, or the new Nikon Capture NX - you'll be in a better position to evaluate Lightroom and decide whether to buy it. Clouds and silver linings?

Equally, not implying I generally agree with animal testing of cosmetics etc, don't lose sight that programs developed for, and tested on Mac users first, generally have better interfaces than those developed solely for the Windows platform.

John
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 13, 2006, 06:59:47 am
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I can't believe this. Photographers' disapproval should be directed at companies like Apple for bringing out programs that only work on a minority of computers, not at Adobe for making a perfectly sensible commercial decision to defend a market segment. Sure Adobe are losing a few months of the design input of the majority of potential users, but they've clearly stated they will release a beta for Windows as soon as it's ready. Fine.

In the meantime, try out all the other programs that are out there. Try Lightzone, CaptureOne, or the new Nikon Capture NX - you'll be in a better position to evaluate Lightroom and decide whether to buy it. Clouds and silver linings?

Equally, not implying I generally agree with animal testing of cosmetics etc, don't lose sight that programs developed for, and tested on Mac users first, generally have better interfaces than those developed solely for the Windows platform.

John
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I take it your a Mac user then John?  

Actually I have tried many of the other programs, that's not really the point of my comment is it!?
 
As I stated, this is my view - you don't have to agree with it!

If you are a Mac user then you haven't really been 'itching' to get you hands on this software.  With all the PR (& DVD's by Michael) its quite painful for us PC users to wait this long (like actually letting you have a nibble of the carrot then running off with it).  

As for the loss in design input - thats what gets most of us Windows users.  

As for your last comment -  that's a pretty serious implication you are making there!!  Don't give your address out or you may have a queue of PC developers at your door  

Perhaps this thread is getting a bit flamey so I will end my comments now....My original purpose was just to have a small winge at Adobe for not releasing a Beta of Lightroom for Windows yet.  This was not meant to be a Mac v PC war which is the direction it is heading in.
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on June 13, 2006, 07:44:34 am
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I take it you're a Mac user then John?
That's funny. Quite the contrary - I am a PC user who regards Macs as overpriced and overrated, but rather prettily-built and with more ergonomic interface development goals. I also admit to the prejudice that Mac users complain and praise more than PC users because they are more used to generally more elegant interfaces - hence my earlier analogy to animal testing of cosmetics and medicines . In any case I trust the existing beta testers to evaluate and give feedback as photographers (who just happen to bore the rest of us unbelievers with their often-religious faith in the Mac). So no, while I have played with Macs over the last 16 years, I'm certainly not a Mac user!

I'd also love to get my hands on Lightroom, but there are pressing commercial reasons for undermining Aperture and for allocating resources accordingly. Adobe will release Lightroom when it's ready. In the meantime it's great that there has been a shake-up. If Lightroom had already been released, I doubt if I would have bothered trying out other programs such as those I've listed, each of which has given me valuable experience and new perspectives.

John
Title: On PC
Post by: Panorama on June 13, 2006, 12:23:21 pm
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Launching LR as a Beta was incredibly smart.

A lot of pros are on Macs, and would seriously consider Aperture - once they move, they rarely come back. This way, not only are they aware of Adobe's product, but with it being a Beta they are involved, and through the forums there is a sense of community. So the app has momentum and loyalty long before release. Good marketing.

This will have hit Aperture very hard.
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Hmmmm. are you sure you want to say that? Are you a mac user?

Launching LR on the mac is as basic as marketing 101; there's simply no way it should be called "incredibly smart". IMO it's actually a borderline decision unless you think that the pro/amateur photography market is a huge part of apple's 5% of the total. I guess Adobe didn't think they could get the market back and if their offering isn't that good in the end, they'd be right.

There are also a lot of pro photographers using PC's but with no competion on the PC, Adobe has no incentive to ramp up that program. they're doing a fine job of snubbing pc users everywhere.

Hit aperture very hard? Assuming you're a mac owner, have you used or seen aperture in operation? Though it's not a replacement for PS, it's extremely fast and flexible at what it does. Since I really don't care about putting frogs in a desert image a lot of PS's capabilities are left unused and the PS/Bridge solution is getting intolerable. Getting something like aperture is almost enough to make me go out and buy an extremely overpriced mac just to get away from PS.  

What I find most annoying about the lack of a windows beta is that there's no input oportunites. I actually don't think that the mac interface is all that great. As a matter of fact, I find some mac things really, really dumb and I sure don't want mac users solely designing an application I may/may not want to use.
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on June 14, 2006, 07:03:04 am
Oh Dear I think I may have knocked the can...

It now appears to be on its side with worms everywhere.      


JD
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on June 14, 2006, 07:14:10 am
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Oh Dear I think I may have knocked the can...

It now appears to be on its side with worms everywhere.     
JD
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No no, of course you haven't. We Windows users would all like a Lightroom beta ASAP - just some of us are more patient than yourself, and don't think we're being insulted by the delay. It'll come. But we're all free to differ. Just highly amused you thought I was a Mac user. I wonder what you'd imply if I said nice things about Claudia Schiffer....
Title: On PC
Post by: AdrianW on July 09, 2006, 07:28:58 pm
Taps foot impatiently... Come on Adobe, release the beta for PC!

Incidentally I concur with JD on the subject of Mac prevalence in the rest of the world - outside the US they're nowhere near as common in my experience. Most photo/repro places locally (UK) use PCs, not Macs.
Title: On PC
Post by: katemann on July 10, 2006, 02:40:31 pm
*sigh*

Now Rawshooter is being subsumed into Lightroom, and I am giving up on iMatch, as I expect LR will be adequate as a cataloguing application, and I'm waiting.

And waiting.

I know, it takes time.

*sigh*

*sigher*
Title: On PC
Post by: Nick Rains on July 10, 2006, 06:43:58 pm
Reality Check.

To all those PC users who are breathless with expectation - go to a Mac shop and have a play with LR - you can probably take in the LR beta3 on a CD and install it, if you ask nicely. No doubt the salespersons will leap at  the prospect of showing someone 'The True Way'.

You can ask all sorts of tricky questions about Macs and then leave saying 'you'll think about it'.

This may satisfy your curiosity.

OTOH, it's just another app, not the second coming. I have used LR on a Powerbook that I had on loan from Apple and frankly it's just not that great - certainly not the huge leap forward that people seem to be expecting.

It seems fine, a bit fiddly but generally OK.  There are some clever bits, like the built in B+W channel mixer, but none of it is exclusive to LR.  What Adobe seem to be aiming for is a Swiss Army Knife of imaging ie a tool that does everything and this is a worthy goal in many respects.

The problem is that such an app is often fully competant at many things but does not actually shine in any one aspect. Personally I prefer to choose the best app for a specific task and I don't mind using 2 or 3 instead of one.

It's a bit like choosing a stereo system that all comes in one box and you just plug it in. It will sound just fine, but for that extra quality it is better to choose the components separately, even it they are from different manufacturers.

LR can never be the best tool for the job - it might be the most convenient, but not the best. Adobe are trying to please too many people and it is true that you cannot please all the people all of the time.

So, FWIW:

Best Browser: Photo Mechanic
Best RAW Converter: Any of the main players will do fine.
Best DAM: IView Media Pro (Portfolio is OK too)

IMHO LR, by it's very nature, can never be as 'good' as any of the above at that specific task.
Title: On PC
Post by: David Mantripp on July 11, 2006, 07:02:50 am
Quote
LR can never be the best tool for the job - it might be the most convenient, but not the best. Adobe are trying to please too many people and it is true that you cannot please all the people all of the time.

The consensus from the latest LR Podcast seems to indicate that their is a growing realisation that they've bitten off more than they can chew, and that the DAM part should be, er, rescheduled.

It is also quite remarkable to hear some polite but genuine in-fighting between the ACR camp and the LR camp on the same podcast, with Thomas Knoll clearly disparaging the current implementation of the ACR conversion engine, on performance grounds.

Too many cooks...
Title: On PC
Post by: andythom68 on July 11, 2006, 07:29:11 am
Quote
Reality Check.

To all those PC users who are breathless with expectation - go to a Mac shop and have a play with LR - you can probably take in the LR beta3 on a CD and install it, if you ask nicely. No doubt the salespersons will leap at  the prospect of showing someone 'The True Way'.

You can ask all sorts of tricky questions about Macs and then leave saying 'you'll think about it'.

This may satisfy your curiosity.

OTOH, it's just another app, not the second coming. I have used LR on a Powerbook that I had on loan from Apple and frankly it's just not that great - certainly not the huge leap forward that people seem to be expecting.

It seems fine, a bit fiddly but generally OK.  There are some clever bits, like the built in B+W channel mixer, but none of it is exclusive to LR.  What Adobe seem to be aiming for is a Swiss Army Knife of imaging ie a tool that does everything and this is a worthy goal in many respects.

The problem is that such an app is often fully competant at many things but does not actually shine in any one aspect. Personally I prefer to choose the best app for a specific task and I don't mind using 2 or 3 instead of one.

It's a bit like choosing a stereo system that all comes in one box and you just plug it in. It will sound just fine, but for that extra quality it is better to choose the components separately, even it they are from different manufacturers.

LR can never be the best tool for the job - it might be the most convenient, but not the best. Adobe are trying to please too many people and it is true that you cannot please all the people all of the time.

So, FWIW:

Best Browser: Photo Mechanic
Best RAW Converter: Any of the main players will do fine.
Best DAM: IView Media Pro (Portfolio is OK too)

IMHO LR, by it's very nature, can never be as 'good' as any of the above at that specific task.
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1) Not everyone has access to a Mac store / reseller

2) The store would have to be mad to allow people to walk in and install unknown software from a home burnt CD onto their equipment. That is just asking for trouble even if 99.999% of the time the request is geniune.

3) Why would a Mac shop let you try LR when they would rather have you buy Aperture?

4) How can a person decide if such a program is for them with the limited "screen time" one would get if points 1 - 3 did not apply?

5) How long did it take you Nick to come up with your opinion? I am sure it was not after spending 10 minutes in a Mac store. I assume you spent many hours learning about LR.


Nick, I am not questioning your opinion of LR you have decided LR is not the best tool for you and you already have a established set of tools which does the job for you, thats alright. Just remember it is a Beta and not a finished product for  sale. However, I as a PC only user I would like to spend some time to get to know the program and its functions properly before I decide whether it will be the tool for me. I would also like to participate in the actual Beta Program and give my feedback to Adobe about my experiences with LR so that I get a better tool when it goes into the shops.


Your analogy of the Hi-Fi equipment is flawed. LR is made up of seperate components (modules) held together by a common interface and 3rd parties will be able to develop their own modules. The frontend is like the amplifier and the modules are like the seperate hi-fi components which plug into the amplifer.


Both Aperture and Lightroom are tools just in their infancy. As time goes by I am sure they will mature into tools which many people (maybe even you Nick) will find useful. There is no reason to think why either of these could not become the dominant tool used by photographers in the not too distant future.


I have no opinion whether Aperture or Lightroom will be the better product. As a Windoze user I have no firsthand experience of either. But it is probably like comparing Canon to Nikon, Mac to PC, Capture One to Camera Raw. It all comes down to personal preferences.


In my opinion one reason Windoze users feel frustrated is Mac users (and the world in general) got no advanced warning of this tool (that I am aware of) and it simply "popped out of the blue" - which was a nice post christmas surprise for most Macs users  But, Windoze users have been told for 7 months now that it will be available to them: "soon - in the summer". We (PC users) have known of it's existance long before it's release and that is why some PC users are frustrated. We know it is exists, we have seen the screen shots, heard people (alpha testers) have used it and we are still waiting to try it. I am sure if the roles were reversed Mac users would be just as frustrated as Windoze users by now.


Do I think Adobe was right in delaying the WIN-LR beta until after Mac-LR-B3? Yes, I do. From what I have seen from the features available in B3 it is now a useful product able to satisfy a lot of what a photographer demands (but still lacking all the features required for a commercial product). Adobe needed to keep the existing testers happy (note I do use the word: "users" - this is a beta after all). Mac-LR-B3 gave Adobe the goalposts for them to aim at for the WIN-LR-B3. Is it frustrating as a Windoze user to continue to wait? Hell yes!   Can we do anything about it? Hell no!


Should Adobe have waited until they had a version for both platforms? No, Adobe (IMO) would have lost too much market share to Aperture it they had waited. Even if the "market share" was not affected it did take some of the momentum away from Aperture. The decision to release the Lightroom Beta was a commercial decision (IMO). I am sure Adobe would have liked to have waited for the feature set to have been expanded before starting the Beta program, but Apple got to market first and they had to do something.


It is frustrating that it is very nearly 1 month since B3 was released for Mac and we are still waiting for the PC version. I was really expecting the WIN-LR-B3 very soon after the Mac release.



Andy (frustrated but never "breathless")
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on July 11, 2006, 08:54:09 am
We PC users have known of its (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe) existence long before its release and are indeed frustrated....

Summertime
and the shutters are clickin'
Pixel by pixel,
The gigs multiply

Lightroom's on Mac,
and the beta's good lookin'
So what about Windows
I hear you cry

One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing
Sometime in summer
Is what they said

But till that morning
There's a'nothing can stop you
From Capture NX and Lightzone standing by

Summertime
And Adobe said just wait
We won't forget you
Wait till it's ready

Adobe's rich
But Aperture's good lookin'
So hush little baby
Don't you cry
Title: On PC
Post by: andythom68 on July 11, 2006, 09:01:28 am
John, I recognise your post from the Adobe labs forum        
Title: On PC
Post by: john beardsworth on July 11, 2006, 11:17:14 am
Yeah, not yet got round to "Stairway to Lightroom" yet....

I'm frustrated, as a PC user, but frankly I regard Mac testers of the program as photographers first, and people who bore you with their computer brand second. So let them clap with joy or choke on bugs, and let us PC users have a beta when it's ready.

And the more I hear and read about Lightroom, the less impatient I become. I feel Adobe are lowering their sights and making Lightroom just a raw processor, replacing Bridge and to some extent Photoshop, but being little "better" than Bridge at helping you find or manage images across multiple drives and folders.

If anything, podcast 8 made me think they're now more interested in rudimentary selection-based edits, such as in Lightzone or Capture NX. High volume raw processing might be more immediately painful or sexier, but for a big chunk of LR's target market the other side of that same coin is DAM and this group needs a DAMP (DAM+processing) program like Lightroom originally seemed to be. I'd like to think I'm wrong on this.

So while I might not don my black polo neck, gird my loins and take Nick's suggestion of going into an Apple store, I do tend to agree with him that a "best of breed" solution is going to suit me better, most of the time, than a "one ring to rule them all". But it'd be nice to decide on the basis of trying it myself, sometime this summer....

John
Title: On PC
Post by: Nick Rains on July 11, 2006, 06:46:27 pm
Quote
Your analogy of the Hi-Fi equipment is flawed. LR is made up of seperate components (modules) held together by a common interface and 3rd parties will be able to develop their own modules. The frontend is like the amplifier and the modules are like the seperate hi-fi components which plug into the amplifer.
Both Aperture and Lightroom are tools just in their infancy.
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Not so flawed really, an integrated HiFi system is made up of modules too - just all in one box - like LR. The fact that they have to be integrated does limit the design somewhat and furthermore, just because the designers in one single company are good at, say, the amp, it does not follow that they are equally good at speakers.

It's interesting that Adobe have absorbed Pixmantec...3rd party modules may well be the saving grace of this app.

I take your points about the visit to the Mac shop - I was not terribly serious about that, it was just that so many people seem to be desperate to get their paws on LR that they might go to any lengths to have a play ;-).

John Beardy - great poem, seems to have a familiar 'ring' about it  
Title: On PC
Post by: andythom68 on July 12, 2006, 04:59:12 am
Quote
Not so flawed really, an integrated HiFi system is made up of modules too - just all in one box - like LR. The fact that they have to be integrated does limit the design somewhat and furthermore, just because the designers in one single company are good at, say, the amp, it does not follow that they are equally good at speakers.

It's interesting that Adobe have absorbed Pixmantec...3rd party modules may well be the saving grace of this app.

I take your points about the visit to the Mac shop - I was not terribly serious about that, it was just that so many people seem to be desperate to get their paws on LR that they might go to any lengths to have a play ;-).

John Beardy - great poem, seems to have a familiar 'ring' about it 
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If Adobe is able to put the SDK/API together (for Mac and PC) shortly after V1.0 is released I think we will have some interesting developments in LR.

I don't think the Pixmantec buy will have any immediate affect on LR. If any of the Pixmantec Dev. team are brought into the LR team it will take them some time to get up-to-speed with the project. But long term it should be a good thing.

We will just have to wait(!) and see  
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on July 14, 2006, 04:57:16 am
Does anybody know if the release date of the Windows beta is going to slip as a result of the Pixmantec aquisition?  

It seems obvious to me that they may want to intergrate some of the features of RSP into Lightroom but Adobe have not really updated thier timeframe for the release since they announced  the origial 'Summer' date.  

My question to anyone on this forum with any knowledge is are we still likley to see a beta this summer (June,July & August in my country) or do we think this may now slip into the Autumn months as a result of further development?

'August' seems the likley time if Summer is still on the cards (please note that this is my assumption - do not start quoting this as fact   )



JD
Title: On PC
Post by: andythom68 on July 14, 2006, 05:42:38 am
Quote
Does anybody know if the release date of the Windows beta is going to slip as a result of the Pixmantec aquisition? 

It seems obvious to me that they may want to intergrate some of the features of RSP into Lightroom but Adobe have not really updated thier timeframe for the release since they announced  the origial 'Summer' date. 

My question to anyone on this forum with any knowledge is are we still likley to see a beta this summer (June,July & August in my country) or do we think this may now slip into the Autumn months as a result of further development?

'August' seems the likley time if Summer is still on the cards (please note that this is my assumption - do not start quoting this as fact   )
JD
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Hi jdyke,

I have no "insider knowledge" but I think we can be confident the WIN beta release won't slip because of trying to add RSP features. It might slip for other reasons though! It has been stated (but I don't have the exact link at hand) that WIN B3 will have the same functionality as the Mac B3 so I can't see any RSP features being added for B3 because then there would be a divergance between the platforms.

Having the RSP people onboard now might actually speedup the WIN beta release as they may be able to help with the bug hunting.

Also, if I remember correctly there should (or will) be a Beta 4. If this is the case we could see RSP features there in the autum/winter.

I hope your prediction of a August release turns out to be wrong  ;-)
Title: On PC
Post by: alfin on July 14, 2006, 06:19:32 am
Quote
[...] It has been stated (but I don't have the exact link at hand) that WIN B3 will have the same functionality as the Mac B3 so I can't see any RSP features being added for B3 because then there would be a divergance between the platforms. [...]

Kevin Connor, Sr. Dir. of Product Management, Adobe wrote in a post at Pixmantec's forum:

"[...] I should let you know, however, that this first beta of Windows won't have every feature that's in the current Mac beta, but the feature sets will catch up to each other before the final versions ship. Nevertheless, the first beta will have more than enough features for you to work with your own photos and get a feel for the application. Most importantly, it will be enough so that you'll be able to give us some meaningful feedback of where it needs to improve. [...]"

So it seems win users will have to wait even after B3...
Title: On PC
Post by: andythom68 on July 14, 2006, 07:40:41 am
Yikes!  

So what we are really going to get in the summer/autumn of 2007 (  ) is Beta 2.5  

Well, lets hope they synchronize the two versions before another Mac Beta gets released, otherwise there is not much point in releasing a WIN Beta with reduced functionality and only making all the functionality available in the v1.0 release to PC users. This strategy would deny us (PC people) the ability to give our feedback back into the development program.

Maybe if the Pixamantec developers are brought onboard the feature set on the PC version will match the Mac one sooner than it would if the Pixamentec takeover had not gone ahead

Ofcourse this is all pure speculation and the PC Beta we are "soon" to get may have all the current Mac B3 features ... you never know, stranger things have happened at sea  
Title: On PC
Post by: jdyke on July 14, 2006, 10:56:37 am
Depends what's missing too....  

If there is too much missing then its likely people just aren't going to use it.  It needs to be usable (and reasonably stable) with albeit a few bugs and some missing features.

Not much point speculating though - we will see when it gets here.


I think its generally felt (by PC and Mac users alike) that PC users have has a bit of a raw deal up to now (as some of my earlier rants will show   ) with the delay in the beta release so it would be a bit dumb of Adobe to release a 'moth eaten' half-ass of a product to the PC community as they would probably end up losing many cutomers as a result.

I shall continue to wait with patience.....my expectations are hig.....(I am now expecting it to cook me a steak dinner and get me a beer   )

JD